Who would win in a Fight a Chinese Swordsman or a Samuari

[FIRE HAWK]

Who would win in a fight a and wich would you rather be a Chinese swordsman useing the Gin straight sword or a Japanese Samuari useing a Samuari Sword ?

[TjD]

i'd rather be a wing chun man with the baat jam do ;)

butterfly swords RULE

[SifuAbel]

I dunno, maybe..................


THE BETTER SWORDSMAN!!

[Liokault]

If you look at old style chinese waist sabres and willow leaf sabers they are very much like samuri swords but the jian is totaly differant to any thing the japanese were interested in.

That being said i think that a sword fight would go like a sword fight between an english calvary guy with a heavy sabre (once the more popular dueling weapon) and an Italian guy with a rapier.

The rapier won historicaly and became the dueling weapon of choice due to the fact that it was so much faster than the sabre and dids not have to be drawn back before a strike.


So if we are talking a Chinese guy with a jian against a samuri with the stasndard samuri sword then i think the chinese guy will win.

Its like that film ( I forget the name ) where the English bad guy fights against a huge scots guy with a claymore.



Anyway there are lots of other variables such as armour, are the swords drawn prior to the fighting, length of weapon blah blah.

[dezhen2001]

You mean "Rob Roy"? That sword duel was pretty cool, the ending was to be expected ;)

I think it would be interesting to see...i love seeing someone skilled using the katana, but for me the Jian and Dao are more interesting.

I'm sure there was plenty of this kind of thing during WW2 and also when the Japanese took over places like Shanghai etc.

interesting question though :)

david

[Mr Punch]

Basically I agree with Abel, but I would have to add that I don't follow your logic, Liokault.

The thrust is well-used, -loved, and -practised by Japanese swordsmen, and it's pretty fast. The katana also doesn't need drawing back before a strike, and the weighting of the blade, and the balance in a good grip makes it very convenient from any angle.

I'm not sure (perhaps someone like Black Jack could help us here) what the relative weights are, but I doubt that a jian is actually that much heavier than a katana, either.

[Rolling Elbow]

A good samurai swordsman does NOT draw his blade back before striking..the attack comes from wherever he is at any given time..hence the reference and reliance upon "taijutsu", using the body. The blade is sharp from head to toe, use it to drag across the wrists of an opponent or arms while evading his attack was the point of swordsmanship, not huge wound up hacks! That crap is from the movies, real swordsman were masters not of aesthetics, but control, timing, distance, and accuracy! Jumping around is for chinese martial artist! :-)

[Mannek]

Depends on which one you give the gun to.

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by Mannek
Depends on which one you give the gun to.

What part of swordsman don't you understand genius?

Anyhoo, a katana usually only weighs a few pounds, maybe 5 at most. I have 2 katanas, more for show than fighting and they are only a few pounds, and incredibly well balanced. All the weight is not placed on one part of the weapon like some swords.

[Black Jack]

I wish I could help but I am not to up on those asian weapons but if someone would ask me to place a bet for the pure sake of betting I would place my cash on the Samurai warrior.

Why???

Because the Samurai is a elite solider first and foremost, he is not standard cannon fodder, so his training, skills and first hand experiance with his chosen weapon, IMO would place him at a higher level than a scholar with a Wen Jian. But in the end SifuAbel's statement holds the real water, whoever is better that specific day, at that specific time.

I do like the chinese straight sword though and it is very pretty to watch a skilled player perform and I have no doubt that from what little I have seen and read that a skilled fighter could use one with deadly skill. I would describe the sword as deceptive in its flowing movements.

But I would still go with the Katana if I had to pick between the two.

[Black Jack]

For those that want some history on the samurai this is a great link.

http://www.samurai-archives.com/

[Liokault]

Ok if we are looking at the thrusting capabilities of the relative sword shapes then the jian wins out over the katana easly.

The katana is curved and is ment for slashing /cutting not thrusting. I am not saying that you can not thrust with it but that you will be at a disadvantage against a rapier type sword if you tried it.

Also i would heavely discount the hype surrounding the skills of samuri. The first european traders who arived in Nippon would have all been good with blades on their own terms and they considerd the skills of japanise swordsmen basic in the extream.

I am trying to find links to add more to this thread as i find it interesting but i am not haveing much luck.

[Stacey]

samurai vs chinese broadsword- samurai wins
samurai vs chi massa we gin- Strait sword wins



I liked Rob Roy, I got a stiffy durring the part when the guys like "Imagine that I am the sword and you are the sheath."

[Ky-Fi]

I've never studied JMA swordsmanship, but I've studied Taiji saber for a couple years, and a little bit of Taiji sword. I've also been taking Western fencing since the beginning of the year. I love the CMA sword stuff, but to be honest, if I had to fight for my life against a single swordsman, I'd choose a rapier.

[Liokault]

Ok i have played with a western fencer who has trained in it for 2 years.

Bear in mind that all i have done is the straight sword form and a few 2 person drills with the sword.

The fencer would almost always just pick a time to thrust whice after a while was easly counterd with a sweeping motion of my sword along with a fast step backwards.

After about 5 minuets we were winning about 50/50 but i think i won over all as the fencer was bleeding from a nasty scratch over the eye brow. ( did not think i was a threat and would not wear the protective gear even though it was all there)

[Black Jack]

Hey Neal....you are letting your true colors show again.

That line is from a brutal rape scene.:mad:

Douchebag.


If we were talking western vrs eastern, then that is a different story, I would go with the western swordsman.

[Liokault]

Im not trying to turn this into western v eastern but i am saying that the jian is not unlike a rapier in form and function.

[Stacey]

First off, I'm not Neal, secondly, from my understanding, they were having an affair.

[Black Jack]

Stacey,

Whatever........and no it was a rape scene.

Liokault,

In what respect, the Jian is a broader sword than a rapier, the movements with a Jian are much different than a rapier, what kind of rapier are you in reference to, what style, there were many different kinds of rapier or are you talking about a saber?

[greendragon]

Samurai wins. The Japanese sword is exponentially a better constructed weapon than the chinese sword, especially historically. When learning Kung Fu sword fighting, some of our best tricks come from the Japanese. We even trained ShinKendo. Ultimately it is the Individual, of course I agree with that.

[Liokault]

No i am not talking about a sabre.

My point is that the jian is relativly (ofton not always and i have seen them doen to 16 inches) long light and thin in both thickness and width.

Also it is used in a not un rapier like manner i.e. fast thrusting motions and light paries.

It should be pointed out that i am refering to a wide range of western swords that the general populouse would refewr to as rapiers but realy are just generic light straight swords.

I am aware that there are many styles of thease swords and my argument holds up for all of them.


Bottom line is in a head to head duel light straight thrusting sword beats heavy slashing sword.

ok other things come into it the main one being any form of armour but the above has been shown to be true historicaly.

any one really interested in this should head over to sword forum international.

[Xebsball]

greendragon is wrong on the statement about japanese sword being better. That doesnt come from me, i actually have read on the internet, from a sword maker, people specialized in sword, saying that the japanese was not superior to the chinese.
I dont mean to be offensive but i will stick to the experts opinion, its the logical thing to do.

The outcome of a sword fight between a chinese and japanese style is hard to determinate. And of course if you consider the whole posible factors of the battlefield it gets even more complex. Ultimately yes the best swordsman will win.
You have to understand that each swordsmanship style and respective weapon is designed to work for whitin a context.
So in case the chinese actually had problem fighting japanese swords wouldnt they change? Its only obvious that if it was true the chinese would adapt. And the same with the japanese. Or else theyd be crushed. And were they crushed? No. Had they been crushed... back to my previous stament, they create something new, it comes from need of survival.
Im talking about a chinese style designed specificly to fight the japanese and a japanese style designed specificly to fight the chinese.
Is there/was there such thing? There are examples of chinese using the Miao Dao to fight japanese pirates.

What im saying is, back than there was no space for non fuctional techniques/styles, people got killed. Generals are not stupid to let their army keep on training over and over something that wont work when the time comes. And you know when it comes to not having your neck cut everyone is as smart as they can be.

A more direct answer, i LIKE the chinese style better, although i like the european styles as well.

[Xebsball]

another few things to remember:
(not that i dont think you peeps would be not smart to come up with this, im just reminding)

1) stories of "i know a case when a japanese/chinese master defeated a chinese/japanese master blah blah blah" wont add anything to this discussion. Its obvious that there are stories as such documented, oh both sides, driving again to the conclusion that the best man won.

2) when talking, for example, about a regular kendo guy going against a regular kung fu guy, dont forget that the kendo guy is sword specialist while the kung fu guy in this case divides his training time with empty handed and weapons. The sword specialist is always in adavantage when in a pure sword combat.

[Stranger]

"a regular kendo guy going against a regular kung fu guy"- Xebsball

However, the thread is dealing with a samurai fighting a Chinese swordsman. Samurai do not study kendo, they study kenjutsu (HUGE DIFFERENCE). Kendo is to the combative use of the katana what Olympic fencing is to the compative use of European swords (a highly diluted game of tag).

Any samurai would have many weapons, unarmed skills, and other class and military skills that they would have to perfect in addition to studying the sword. To cast the samurai as a "one trick pony" is not fair.

[Leimeng]

From my limited experiance of studying both IAI and Kendjutsu for three years and several more years of Chinese Arts: The Filipino and Ghurkas win nine times out of ten! :) (Assuming all else is equal....)
But, since the discussion is JMA and CMA I think we need to look at few other issues.
~The Chinese historically made some d@mn good swords. However, each time a dynasty succeed a previous one, they killed the solders that opposed them in the struggle, then they destroyed their weapons, families and the people who made the weapons. There are a few very very rare examples of high Chinese sword craft. There are a lot of examples of show swords or other cheap weapons available.
~Japanese Swordsmanship was very much simplified. I think in the IAI that I studied (several years ago), there were perhaps 15 techniques a person learned for a 1rst Dan ranking (black belt, but still pretty much a begginer in the traditional sense). When the only thing you practice for hours on end for several years is those 15 techniques arranged in 12 forms, you get pretty efficiant in that which you are practicing. Add some of the hitting and stricking exercises on bamboo and straw mats and a hard working individual will have some skill.
~Conversely, a Chinese swordsman will perhaps have 20-120 techniques in a sword form. There is less practice (now adays at least) of each movement drilled in repetition. Very few people now adays will practice hitting with there (very cheap, fake) swords anyway.
If a Chinese Swordsman practised the same way the Japanese Swordsman practiced, I would put my money on the Chinese Swordsman.
I would still reccomend that a person studying either of these arts also learn some filipino stuff to supplement their training. The progress will be geometric in both understanding and applications.



Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

---------------------------------------
If you pit one Chinese martial artist against one Japanese martial artist, the Chinese martial artist will win because he has superior technique.
If you pit three Chinese martial artist' against three Japanese martial artist', the three Japanese martial artist' because the three Chinese martial artist' will be fighting amonst themselves over lineage, and proper placement of the little toe in alignment with the palm and stars......

[Xebsball]

"Samurai do not study kendo, they study kenjutsu"

I know thats why i wrote "for example"

"However, the thread is dealing with a samurai fighting a Chinese swordsman"

Expert vs expert being diferent than expert vs generical is exactly my point. My post was intended to remind people of that before they bring up experiences of sparring, since that most people here from chinese systems are not sword experts, while the praticioners of japanese sword systems are indeed obviously sword experts.

In no time i said todays sparring matches represent or have the same meaning than a duel between two specialists.

[Braden]

greendragon

Historical evidence has destroyed the claim that japanese swordsmanship was superior. At the top of their game, everyone from the chinese to the vikings has blades which equalled or rivaled those of japan. Go to www.swordforum.com and talk to the scholars there if you disagree.

everyone...

It's important to keep in mind that there are varieties of chinese swords, just as there are varieties of japanese swords; and just as there are varieties of using both.

I do not think most dao and katana training methods evolved for the duel, so much as for a war. This isn't true of the jian.

In a duel, I would pick a duelist over a soldier every time.

In terms of my own experience, I prefer the bagua dao work over both the japanese swordwork and modern western swordwork I've done (for dueling). But this is a matter of technical preference, and I'd consider skilled practitioners of all to be dangerous swordsmen. As far as the preference goes, I find modern western swordwork to be too linear and extended; and the japanese swordwork I have seen to be too open in their postures. Both of these approaches have their benefits, mind you.

[Mannek]

What part of swordsman don't you understand genius?

Probably the sense of humor.

[Mister Hansome]

Maybe someone should factor in years of experience, fighting background (experience), environment to be fought in, spirit, and possibly health... Oh and don't forget about purpose...

For example, the vietnamese army has been known to have beaten three advanced mongolian army, each of which consisted of half a million men, while the vietnamese only had an army numbering 2 hundred thousand, obviously being outnumbered. The mongols were fierce, destroying the chinese army with their might a few years back. First encounter the environmental factor was at the advantage of the vietnamese due to the lack of experience of the mongols of the climate. The second and last encounters by then that advantage was gone. The mongols had experience and a blood thirsty background. The vietnamese were farmers who had weapons handed to them by the monarch. Health was on both sides at both the last and middle encounter. Both sides having a notable leader, on the mongolian side Kublai Khan's own son lead the army, on the vietnamese side a charismatic general.

From history, the vietnamese won three times while being outnumbered. How? Many factors jumped in. Like the situation with JMA and CMA, it's a hard conclusion to draw but to some it seems obvious. Like who would have said the vietnamese would have won against the mongolians three times? Little factors like spirit can be the determining factor, the vietnamese had to win to protect their family as they heard of the mongols pillaging ways (which usually leaves everyone raped, dead, and basically chaos would ensue). Someone forgot to put up the situation, for things to happen...

Answering this question is so hard, because there are MANY styles of both sides. One might be more motivated, one might be more experienced with the others style while one has absolutely none. One might be more healthy...

BUT providing that no one has a field advantage, i would still have no idea....


:D

[Mister Hansome]

And that rapier thing. It really depends on the persons mentality. Like a rapier guy after puncturing the samurais lungs might think he won, but what if the samurai steps one step in and takes a wack at the rapiers head? The rapier dies right away, while the samurai dies a slow death... No win...

Hmmm, i am bored aren't i?

[PHILBERT]

Would you guys consider a Ronin a "Samurai"? If so I bet they would be pretty **** tough considering they fought to the death for the hell of it. One on one over and over and over.

Also you guys never said what kind of Samurai sword? Tanto? Wakahazhi (whatever its spelled)? Tachi? Danto? No'Dachi?

No'Dachi is a bfs (big f*cking sword) measuring something like 5 feet if not greater.

[RAF]

http://www.bajimen.com/

Posted by Mr. James Guo (Formal Student of Liu Yun Qiao) and Allen Chen:

The Duel with Oota Tokusaburou

Shortly before the Sino-Japanese War, a kendo shihan Oota Tokusaburou, representing the Japanese military unit stationed at northern China (Kantougun), issued a challenge in a public park in the city of Tianjin to all the Chinese martial artists to a duel in sword-fighting. This is just one of the attempts by the Japanese military at the time to intimidate and humiliate the Chinese Martial Art community. The park was surrounded by the Japanese military police and attack dogs, and many martial artists in Tianjin feared that even if they won Ouda's challenge they would not come out alive. At that time, GM Liu was of a young and proud age of 23 years old, and when he heard the challenge, he immediately got on a train to Tianjin to take on Oota's challenge.

When the duel began, GM Liu held his sword behind his left hand (a typical starting posture in Chinese swordsmanship), and Ouda attacked first. Using footwork and body movement, GM Liu avoided two slashes from Oota. Then with perfect timing, GM Liu raised his left hand and placed the tip of his sword at Oota's throat. GM Liu gestured Oota to drop his sword and then flipped over the park fence and used his light-body training to escape the immediate manhunt by the Japanese military police.

The next day, the Chinese martial art community in Tianjin held a banquet in honour of GM Liu, which appeared in the newspaper headline the following day. At GM Liu's house, I saw the photo clipping of this headline, in which a young GM Liu sat in the centre surrounded by many bearded old masters.

After this incident, GM Liu was recruited by the pre-war Chinese underground intelligence agency and began his short career as an assassin targeting Japanese military officials.


A Brief Chronology of the Life of Grandmaster Liu

1909 Born on the 8th day of the second month in the lunar calander in Ji-Tao Village, Cang County, Hebei Province, China.

1914 Began the training in TaiZu ChangQuan (Song Emperor Long Fist) and MiZongQuan (Lost Track Fist) under Zhang Yiao-Ting. Zhang, a Henan native, served under Liu's grandfather in Henan as a personal bodyguard and later stayed with the family when the grandfather retired as an officer.

1916 Became the last (closed door) disciple of "God of Spear" Li ShuWen and began the training of Bajiquan (Eight Extreme Fist) and Piguazhang (Hanging-Chop Palms). Later he also began the training of LiuHe DaQiang (Six Harmony Lance), ShuaiBa Guen (Handle-throwing Staff) and Pigua Dao (Pigua Sabre) under Li

1929 Followed Li ShuWen to travel around Shandong Province, challenging and being challenged by famous martial artists. Got the nickname "Little Titan of ShanDong".

1932 Finally stopped at the Huang County, ShanDong and stayed with one of Li's earlier disciples, General Zhang Xiang-Wu. Began the training in Taijiquan and KuenWu Sword with Zhang. He also began the training in LiuHe TangLang (Six Harmony Preying Mantis) under Ding ZiCheng.

1934 Death of Li ShuWen.

1935 Left for YenTai City, Shandong, with Gong BaoTien and began the training in Baguazhang.

1937 After the start of Japanese invasion in China, entered FongXiang Central Military School, a 7th division of the HuangPu Military School. He was in the 15th term.

1939 Graduated as a Second Lieutenant and began front line duty defending against the Japanese invasion forces in the area of Shanxi and Henan provinces.

1941 Married to Madam Zhu JianXia. Positioned at BaoJi as the Captain of the Northwest Police Detective Unit.

1943 Positioned in the Chuan-Shan Sector Headquarter as the Comissioner of the General Staff.

1949 Arrived at Taiwan with the Chinese Nationalist Government. Positioned as the Chief of Personnel Section, General Staff of the Headquarter of the newly founded Parachuter Division. Later transferred to Department of National Defence Personnel Section as the Colonel of the General Staff. Then positioned as the Chief of the North District Centre of the Headquarters of the Combined Service Forces.

1968 Lead Martial Arts team to visit the southeast Asia. Later became the Safety Advisor of the Presidential Palace, coaching the Safety Personnels for the President of the Republic of China.

1971 Founded the WuTang Martial Art Magazine and WuTang GuoShu Promotion Centre.

1977 Began training the teaching staff of the United Commanding Section.

1989 At the invitation of Taiwan GuoShu Association, began the task of creating a standardized training material for Chinese Martial Arts.

1992 Died on the 21th day of January at the age of 83.

_________________________________________________

I always keep in mind that it is the "man"who makes the martial art, not the martial art who makes the "man".

On a closing note, I heard the story of one of Liu's assassination attempts of a Chinese warlord who was about to sign a pact with the Japanese turning over some regional area in Northern China--Liu used a pistol, not martial arts. Efficiency rules!

[The Willow Sword]

The Samurai.

[firepalm]

The movie producer that put money into showing such a thing as the only time one will see a fight between a Samurai & a Chinese swordsman is on screen. And truth is no one really cares about such things....:eek: I just had to say that!

[Black Jack]

What could be a good discussion has already been a tad soiled with a few stoic blanket statements of who would win what, what is what and that is that.:o

I have never fought anybody to the death with a japenese katana, a polish saber, a scottish claymore, a spanish rapier, a frence smallsword or a chinese Jian, no one here has, so the point is mute, even if I or you did the point would still be mute as the next encounter could very quickly change, it happens all the time in sword practice and now in padded/mixed weapon tournaments, its all about what we each like and what merits we see in that system or philosophy of combat, like Abel said, its whoever was the most skilled swordsman, not just that but the most skilled on that day and time.

For those that are interested this is a very good but slightly baised read. Its called the Paradoxes of Defense, written in 1599 by a gentleman, teacher of armed combat, and strict engilsh traditionalist by the name of George Silver. The text which has a lot of really good info on his philosophy of combat, and I tended to agree with much of it but I like a lot of things, is about his baises and concerns with the popularity of some of the fashionable foreign rapiers which he see's as flawed weapons in personal combat when compared to the traditional engilsh short sword.

He challenges the use of the rapier with the established tactics of the engilsh swordsman or what we now call Elizabethan swordplay. A few of the points are that most rapiers are to long and that a swordsman should use a weapon with a length that suits his stature, that they are not a good choice to wound a man in armour and that a swordsman should use both the cutting blow and the thrust and by this, which I am guessing, is that he is in regards to a specific ear of rapier, as I believe the rapier was much more wide and broadsword like in 1550, than the slender and almost pure thrusting weapon which came around in 1600, which is one year from the date of his manuel.

Anyway enjoy.

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html

[Rolling Elbow]

Guys... just getting back from cottage. I may be late on this one BUT

A Kendo specialist is not a master japanese swordsman! He is a master bamboo swordsman within the confines of the rules infront of him. Kendo is wacking the **** out of someone else in padding. Real blades are an entirely different thing!

[Stacey]

bamboo and padding?


Give a kendo 2nd dan a boken and he'll kill you with it.

[Serpent]

Who would win in a Fight a Chinese Swordsman or a Samuari


The better swordsman, obviously.

[Mr Punch]

Abel answered correctly.

Stacey: give a high-school kid a bokuto and he'd have a good chance of killing you. How does your statement refute Rolling Elbow's?

BJ: interesting article. Thanks. Bit long for just now, but I'll come back to it...

RAF: interesting example. Shame it didn't have more detail on the techniques used. 'slash' doesn't really give us a lot! 'Using footwork and body movement Liu avoided the first two slashes from Ota': LOL. Try...: 'Using a cheesecake and some squirty cream Liu avoided the first two slashes from Ota...'!!:D Unfortunately, seldom do you get an example where the viewer is schooled in both Japanese and Chinese, and can really explain what happened.

Braden: They may not be the best, but I do like them!!!:D

However, I would argue with this...

"I do not think most dao and katana training methods evolved for the duel, so much as for a war. This isn't true of the jian. "

But as usual, no time :D, so I'll just give you my usual unsubstantiated crap!...most of the kenjutsu schools, even if they hadn't started that way, trained with bokuto and proved themselves almost exclusively through duelling all through the Tokugawa period, and even the masters who won the contracts for teaching the shogun and the samurai families usually did so in a duel, or single combat with bokuto. And although people like Musashi had battlefield experience, he then spent the best part of his life fighting duels.

Even on the battlefield, the earliest samurai tradition after the emphasis changed from bow to sword, was to fight as champions in single combat before any battle might start... wasn't it? I seem to remember something like that from Turnbull...

Rolling Elbow: thank you for correcting my post on p1. While your post added to what I had said: we were actually saying the same thing in different ways!

me: 'The katana also doesn't need drawing back before a strike, and the weighting of the blade, and the balance in a good grip makes it very convenient from any angle.' (Sorry, bad grammar, should have put the 'also' first!)

you: 'A good samurai swordsman does NOT draw his blade back before striking..the attack comes from wherever he is at any given time..hence the reference and reliance upon "taijutsu", using the body. The blade is sharp from head to toe, use it to drag across the wrists of an opponent or arms while evading his attack was the point of swordsmanship, not huge wound up hacks! '

... though I would say 'drag' is a terrible word to use for a cut from a katana!
:p

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by George Silver in 1599
George Silver having the perfect knowledge of all manner of weapons, and being experienced in all manner of fights, thereby perceiving the great abuses of the Italian Teachers of Offense done unto them, and great errors, inconveniences, & false resolutions they have brought them into, has informed me, even for pity of their most lamentable wounds and slaughters, & as I verily think it my bound duty, with all love and humility to admonish them to take heed, how they submit themselves into the hand of Italian teachers of defence, or strangers whatsoever, and to beware how they forsake or suspect their own natural fight, that they may by casting off these Italianated, weak, fantastical, and most devilish and imperfect fights, and by exercising their own ancient weapons, be restored, or achieve unto the natural, and most manly and victorious fight again, the dint and force whereof many brave nations have both felt and feared. Our plowmen have mightily prevailed against them, as also against masters of defence, both in schools and countries, that have taken upon them to stand upon school tricks and juggling gambols. Whereby it grew to a common speech among the countrymen "Bring me to a fencer, I will bring him out of his fence tricks with down right blows. I will make him forget his fence tricks, I will warrant him."

That demned style versus style debate! Those pesky Italians and their tricky fencing shenanigans! I'll just kick their behinds! :D :D

This fool's as long-winded as me!!!

[Frank Exchange]

In response to a much earlier post, there is evidence to show that rapiers and the italian method of fighting with smaller, slender swords gained popularity not so much because they were better on the battlefield, but because of english fashion.

It became fashionable to wear a smaller, more decorative sword, and Italian fencing masters were courted as the "latest thing" from Europe, that one "simply had to try, darling". Eventually, the foreign schools became so fashionable and popular that the Englsih schools died out.

In an attempt to fight against the tides of fashion, Silver and others were well known for standing up for traditional English fencing with shortsword, longsword, sword and buckler etc. and defeating many so-called foreign masters in public challenges. There was a feeling even back then that some of these "masters" were nothing of the sort, but were promoting the Mcdojos of the time. Of course, it was completely acceptable back then to call someone out, and devil take the consequences if his skills could not back up his claims.

Yes, the style versus style debate certainly existed back then, but at least the "put up or shut up" clincher was semi-legal!

It goes to show, as if we needed reminding, that it is not the style that is important, it is the practioner. There was nothing wrong with traditional English swordplay, and there was nothing wrong with Italianate rapier work, as long as both were taught by professionals who knew what they were doing.

Two great books to check out for anyone interested are "The Secret History of the Sword", and "English Martial Arts".

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1892515040/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/202-4132338-0797467

and

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1898281181/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/202-4132338-0797467


It is also worth repeating, as someone else has pointed out, that the point does not always beat the edge, and it is no good impaling someone with a textbook thrust if their dying act is to hack your head off. Point fighting and the first hit kill is not real swordfighting, in the same way that point sparring with empty hands is not real fighting either.
In the Secret History Of The Sword, there is a great story about two turn of the century high level French fencing masters, who decided to settle their differences with a duel to the death.
The observers of the event were horrified to see their artistry and fine swordplay went completely out of the window, as they realised that moves they would have attempted with a foil in a point setting, suddenly became far more dangerous to themselves, when a riposte could result in serious injury or death.

[Cipher]

I have to mention something. There are many factors that would make a difference. A Samurai with a Katana is about like saying a knight with a medevil sword, a lot of differents possible weapons. Japanese swords can range from Katanas with huge curves for slashing to slight curves making it good all around. They can range in weight and lenght. And armor plus the fact of how much damage can each person do to the other one before they are attacked. You know like one person pokes the other and then their guts are laying on the floor in front of them.

Another thing I have to mention. Japanese swords had some of the best craftmanship of their time. The way the Japanese created a sword from making the carbonized steel to the way they temper it is much better than your average Chinese/Itilian/English etc.etc sword. Samurai have been known to cut through other swords, this is true too and not real supprising when you learn how the swords are made.

Anyways, I have been making knives for a little while so between that and MA I have done a lot of research on the swordplay and the way the swords were crafted.

I have some good sword links if anyone want to see them.

[IronFist]

Haha, I asked this same question in a thread a year or so ago. Too bad it got erased when kfo deleted all the old threads.

IronFist

[Leto]

Everybody watch 'Shaolin Challenges Ninja', and all disputes will be answered. :D The Chinese swordsman will win, if that Chinese swordsman is Gordon Liu.

Also watch 'Duel to the Death'. There, we see that both the Chinese sword saint, and the Japanese swordmaster are pretty equal, and kill eachother in the end. Well...I guess you could consider the Chinese guy the winner, since he ran the Japanese through with his straightsword, while himself only had his arm removed, and all the fingers on his other hand sliced off. :D

Like someone said...the only place we'll see this is in the movies...there's really no point trying to speculate about what 'really' would happen...it's all up to the individual skill. And the director.

[GeneChing]

Ever see Zatoichi (the blind swordsman) vs. the one-armed swordsman? That would answer your question but you have to see both the Chinese and Japanese version. It's like King Kong vs. Godzilla but a swordsman version.

FWIW, the Japanese do have jian, they just don't practice it anymore. It was a predecessor of the katana, fresh out of China. You still see them used as temple swords, not unlike how the taoists use jian. Probably the most common manifestation is the sword in the hand of Manjushri - in the Japanese incarnation, Manjushri often weilds a jian. The Japanese call it a Ken (same character as jian) and the root word of Kendo.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Well, duh, the guy who practices BJJ will win the swordfight.

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by Stacey
bamboo and padding?


Give a kendo 2nd dan a boken and he'll kill you with it.
Maybe, but In Japan there was a tesst where they gave kendoka a shinken (live blade) and most could not cut with it doing tameshigiri. (where you cut through a standing soaked tatami mat) Lets see a kendo ka vs a Katori shinto guy. Katori Shinto whould cut off a leg (legs are illegal in kendo).

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by GeneChing

FWIW, the Japanese do have jian, they just don't practice it anymore. It was a predecessor of the katana, fresh out of China.

We do train sometimes with it in the Bujinkan it is called a ken. In one of Hatsumi Sensei's videos (http://www.ninjutsu.com/cgi/searchdb.cgi?Action=search&Category1=Ninjutsu+Videos&SubCategory1=Soke+Hatsumi+Videos&SearchBy=SubSubCategory1&Query=Hatsumi+Weapons+Videos) shows how the same techniques changes when using the ken, tachi and the katana.

[Liokault]

Cipher.


The japanese swords were not really all that great compared to western and chinese swords.

Both western and chinese swords men had at least as good blades as japanese and ofton better. The real differance is in the worshiping os swords amongst the japanese.

All the technology avaliable to the samurai was around in china at the same time and I belive much of what the japanese used was first developed in china.

Even if the chinese could not make swords to the standard of the japanses (whice I doubt) they offton imported large numbers of swords from japan.


And the thing about cutting though swords with a Katana....thats just plain stupid.
When ever 2 swords clash there will be a chance of one shattering the other. There are many storys of broken samurai swords out there so they can not be all that great.

Also any sword MADE to cut though metal would be very impractical in many other situations.

[GeneChing]

shinbushi: Really? Fascinating. I've never heard tell or seen any footage of anyone practicing it. How does it compare to Kendo/Iaido/or Batto Jistu? Do they play a live blade? How odes it compare to Jian?

[Gigante]

Have you guys ever seen a real Iaidoka in action, I wonder? The chinese guy would have no chance, he would fall down dead before he had a chance to draw his sword.
The fight would be like:
Samurai: "Hello"
Chinese guy: "Hel... OUCH!"
Chinese guy falls down, blood everywhere...
Samuai standing with arms crossed...
Chinese guy: "What the hell happened, you didn't move! How could you kill me?"
Samurai: "I am Samurai."

Anyway, a Ninja would kill them both. Ninjas are totally sweet. He would just wail on his guitar until both the Samurai and the Chinese guys heads falls off and explodes.

[greendragon]

I love this forum, always challenging my paradigm. I had always thought Chinese swords were poorly made and the Japanese invented the layering of soft and hard steel making them sharp yet strong. Upon visiting the sword forum I have learned that Chinese used these techniques also. What puzzles me is where are these Chinese swords? I am an antique dealer and go to major NY auction houses, subscribe to the sale catalogs. Plenty of great historic Katanas, Wakizashi, etc. but I do not see quality Chinese weapons. Can someone tell me of a museum collection i can check out or something? I should maybe keep an eye open for the Green Destiny Sword ?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Gigante
Anyway, a Ninja would kill them both. Ninjas are totally sweet. He would just wail on his guitar until both the Samurai and the Chinese guys heads falls off and explodes.

The Ninja wouldn't kill the Samurai and the Chinese guy until he had killed all the pirates, though.

IronFist

[Daniel Madar]

FWIW, the Japanese do have jian, they just don't practice it anymore. It was a predecessor of the katana, fresh out of China. You still see them used as temple swords, not unlike how the taoists use jian. Probably the most common manifestation is the sword in the hand of Manjushri - in the Japanese incarnation, Manjushri often weilds a jian. The Japanese call it a Ken (same character as jian) and the root word of Kendo.

Hmm. Interesting from the bujinkan guy. All the information I have on japanese straight swords indicates they are called tsurugi. I will have to discuss it with the Buj guys here in Tokyo. Ken is what is known as on-yomi, or derivative chinese prononciation, and is usually not used in a stand alone format. Of course, how did jian become ken? Its my experience that on-yomi tends to resemble southern pronunciations more, hence jian-gim-ken...

As for the rest...

Japanese sword style is specialized environmentally, and has its weaknesses. I really that the US branch of Katori Shinto Ryu had a friendly match with some shield and broadsword guys from the SCA and got schooled. Mainly because their style didnt take shields into account.

That being said, it is ALWAYS the practitioner. There is a great story about Kimura, from judo going through boot camp. Everyone knew he was the great judo/karate guy, so when it came time for bayonet training, they put him up against the best bayonet guy, and everyone was watching.

In his own words, Kimura realized he had no idea how to defeat the guy using a bayonet, so he threw his gun at the other guy, kicked him in the balls, and put him in a lock.

Its not the sword style, its how well a practitioner can get the other guy to play to his game.

Even in boxing you see this, and its the same style. The boxer that can control the pace of the fight is more often than not the winner.

[Leimeng]

~ I already addressed the point on quality of Japanese and Chinese swords several messages on this column back.
~ Suffice it to say that succeeding dynasties disarmed the previous dynasty's military so they could not be counter-revolted.
~ The technique of damascus steel probably came from the middle east or persia and moved to china and japan from there.
~ Having practice Iai, and Kenjutsu previous to practicing Chinese arts, I am reasonably familiar with their efficiancy. I prefer Filipino arts over the others for their blade work.
~ The primary key is how diligently and logically the individual practices.

Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng Kan Xue

[Liokault]

HEY greendragon

If you want to see old chinese weapons go to Chinesearms.com


The guy who runs the site always has lots of dao and jian in stock not to mention lots of other types of weapons. He is also at the fore front of the campaign to stop the fakeing of old chinese weapons whice is rife.

He has a good history section on his site to.

After that go to Swordforum international.....its great for blade buffs.

[Cipher]

Originally posted by Liokault
Cipher.


The japanese swords were not really all that great compared to western and chinese swords.

Both western and chinese swords men had at least as good blades as japanese and ofton better. The real differance is in the worshiping os swords amongst the japanese.

All the technology avaliable to the samurai was around in china at the same time and I belive much of what the japanese used was first developed in china.

Even if the chinese could not make swords to the standard of the japanses (whice I doubt) they offton imported large numbers of swords from japan.


And the thing about cutting though swords with a Katana....thats just plain stupid.
When ever 2 swords clash there will be a chance of one shattering the other. There are many storys of broken samurai swords out there so they can not be all that great.

Also any sword MADE to cut though metal would be very impractical in many other situations.


Give me a break. Do you actually know anything about the way Katanas are made? Have you ever made a blade yourself?

The Japanese had a unique way of making swords, starting from the way they carbonized the steel to make it stronger. Blade making is a very touchy process. The way they layer the sword spending huge amounts of time for the whole process is some thing you don't see practiced in other countries as much as in Japan. Sure others would layer them the same way but would they spend months and months layering them every day. Post a link of a European sword smith that did this to the same extent, if you have the info that is.

As far as cutting through another sword. The point is that the Katana is strong and can hold such an awesome edge compared to other swords. The harder material will cut through the softer, ver simple and basic really. The Katanas are not as likely to brake on impact because of the way they were tempered. I would love to see a European or Chinese sword made the same way, please show one to me, or at least a picture of one with enough info to prove it.

It is really stupid to make it a debate of "I don't like Japanese arts very much so they must suck" I could make a claymore with the same process and technique the Japanese did and it would be just as good.

Think about it, how often does a culture have a secrete method that no one ever adapts to? Not very often. I'm sure different methods seeped out over the years but take a look at history, when was the last time you heard about a broad sword with a hamon? Maybe now days, but I am talking about swords made back in the day, not modern repro's.

As far as the actual skill of the Chinese swordsman Vs. the Samurai I would tend to lead towards the Chinese MA.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Cipher, actually, read the interventions from Thomas Chen on the sword forums it really seems that japanese blades WERE inferior to continental (Mongolian, Chinese, Korean) blades around the 13th century, even though stereotypes always told us that japanese blades "were the best in the world of all time"...

[Cipher]

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
Cipher, actually, read the interventions from Thomas Chen on the sword forums it really seems that japanese blades WERE inferior to continental (Mongolian, Chinese, Korean) blades around the 13th century, even though stereotypes always told us that japanese blades "were the best in the world of all time"...

I am talking more from personal knoewledge of how smithing works and the methods the Japanese and Europeans used to make swords. There is no doubt that other countries made great weapons, but the way the Japanese smithed their blades made a very unique and powerfull sword. You have to compare apples to apples, not rapier to Katana they are two totaly different swords with different advantages and weaknesses.

What site are you refering to for the sword forums? I would like to check it out. I am allways looking for good blade making info. Not just how to do it but styles and methods as well.

[Braden]

Cipher - www.swordforum.com

I'm not sure what scholarly evidence you want to back up these claims, since you haven't offered any to back you yours. Basically, pick up any legitimate source on historical swordcraft. The only place you'll find the claim that japanese katanas would slice through other swords and were far superior due to secret japanese process is comic books and roleplaying games.

Just for example: http://swordforum.com/forge/roadtodamascus.html would probably be an enlightening read.

[Liokault]

The other thing I have picked up about old swords and the way they were made (mostly from browsing swordforuminternational) is that laminated blades were not always as good as blades made of 1 piece of metal.

Many myths have grown around the katana and so few are justified.

[Cipher]

I am about to leave work so I'll make a deeper respons later.


Braden,

That is a cool looking for damascus. I love damascus steel, I am planning on making some nice blades out of the steel. Maybe a wakizashi;) probably some type of knife though.

Liokault,

I'm not sure what you mean by laminated swords. Are you talking about layered Vs. one piece forge? I hope not.

I'll be back on tonight. Later.

[Cipher]

That is a good site. I will have to check it out as much as I can.

Braden,

The only thing I found mentioned was that the style of blade in Japan originated in China, and that the Japanese refined and perfected within reason the proccess. This is true, Japan originated from China if you go back far enough so I would say it is safe to assume that a lot of their Martial Arts, culture, art, way of living, weapons etc. etc. have a strong hint of Chinese history. So, the verdict would be...... no crap the design and method came from China. Anyways, to get back on topic.

<<"since you haven't offered any to back you yours.">>

LMAO. What are you talking about dude? It's not like it is some super secrete technique that only a few people know about. There are about a million books that talk about swordsmanship and a lot of these include info on Japanese blades.

A few links I have on file.......

Here is a good one for modern sword making info. (http://www.engnath.com/public/intable.htm)

Forums on the MA side of things. (http://www.bugei.com./) And (http://www.swordforumbugei.com./)

Here is a page from a sword smith. I have only breezed it so........ (http://home1.gte.net/fannin/index.htm)

Some nice blades. Notice the hamon in the pics. (http://www.aoi-art.ab.psiweb.com/index.html )

Site with several sword links (http://pages.prodigy.net/tlbuck/sword.htm)

Anyways, you get the point.

The only thing I know about blades in general Japnese, Chinese, German etc. etc comes from historical facts not some stupid comic book. It is not hard to learn these things.

BTW damascus is made from different kinds of metals forged together. Unless you get a really good forger it is not the #1 steel for a sword, even then it's not the #1 steel but it is really effective. It is awsome looking though, it is one of my favorite steels. I am thinking about buying a Tai Chi sword made from damascus. Could you imagine a Tai Chi sword made from damascus with Chinese design engraved up the middle of the blade.

[GeneChing]

What the best sword is very relative. Weapon making is always dictated by the technology of the time. For instance, in the bronze era, the Japanese sword wasn't very important. Also the environment is a factor. In battle against calvary, a germanic horse swrod is more useful than a colichemarde, but the reverse is true in regal court. Today, in the era of the firearm, what is the measure of cold arms? What is the best sword? One barometer we can use is price. Then the Japanese sword is pretty high up there. Another is more Darwinian, what has the most net reproductive success? That might be, dare I say, fantasy swords. In my area there are already a few stores at the shopping mall that just deal swords, and they are all those absurd fantasy ones. That's pretty grim...

[Braden]

Cipher, I'm assuming you didn't read the article I linked up.

If you had, some of the things you would have gleaned were: the indians, indonesians, vikings, and celts all had pattern welds as sophisticated (in some cases more so, and in some cases in historically earlier times) than the japanese and that the hallmarks of what you identify as superior swordcraft have been abandoned centuries ago (by all cultures) for metalwork that is clearly superior on all accounts but artistic.

"It's not like it is some super secrete technique that only a few people know about. There are about a million books that talk about swordsmanship and a lot of these include info on Japanese blades."

Quite right. And none of the credible ones suggest that the katana or japanese swords in general are "the best" by any account, and certainly don't suggest they would cut through other swords.

[Cipher]

<<"Cipher, I'm assuming you didn't read the article I linked up.">>

Yes, I read highlights of it and the only thing it mentioned about a Katana that I found was that the swords were not literally folded 30,000 time, no shet sherlock. There is a big difference between folds and layers.

<<"If you had, some of the things you would have gleaned were: the indians, indonesians, vikings, and celts all had pattern welds as sophisticated (in some cases more so, and in some cases in historically earlier times) than the japanese and that the hallmarks of what you identify as superior swordcraft have been abandoned centuries ago (by all cultures) for metalwork that is clearly superior on all accounts but artistic.">>

The visual appearance has nothing to do with what I am talking about. From what I have seen the Japanese were never well know for damascus steel. The way they forge the Katana was NOT the same as damascus. They forged it in a way that gave it a super hard edge with a soft spine to keep it from braking. If you like, I can give you a few pointers on how this is done ;)


<<"Quite right. And none of the credible ones suggest that the katana or japanese swords in general are "the best" by any account, and certainly don't suggest they would cut through other swords.">>

I never said they were the best overall either. When you consider the size, style, and what they were used for they had the market. That's just how it is man. And remember hard - soft, hard - soft. Hard cuts soft. the only way you can have a really hard edge without having a brittle blade that would shatter is the method the Japanese and I am sure some other people used. Moderm smiths have tested this and cut through blades. Once you understand how things work you realize that swords are not all powerfull (even Katanas ;) ) and they do brake in battle. They also can bend. It really is not hard to imagine a sword cutting or braking another sword. It's okay, it takes a while to become familiar with this stuff. Don't give up keep at it and you will learn.



Cipher said........
<<"Japanese swords had some of the best craftmanship of their time. ">>

Notice SOME?

<<"The way the Japanese created a sword from making the carbonized steel to the way they temper it is much better than your average Chinese/Itilian/English etc.etc sword. ">>

Notice AVERAGE? To say that the literaly average sword is better made than a good Japanese sword is ignorant. I doubt that even the better made english and Chinese swords were any better over all in conparison to what we are talking about.

What I said about damascus being made from different steels was for your info, it was not concerning what the artical said.

[Braden]

Are you telling me you believe the Japanese were the only ones to do differential hardening?

Goodness.

That explains alot.

They weren't and they're not.

[Liokault]

Cipher

You need to do some more reading about this instead of trying to hold on to your ideas in the faqce of clear evcidance guy.

[Cipher]

Originally posted by Braden
Are you telling me you believe the Japanese were the only ones to do differential hardening?

Goodness.

That explains alot.

They weren't and they're not.

No, no, no. The Japanese refined it more than most other cultures of their time. They were not the only ones who did it but they did it the best for their time and what the swords were made for.

Don't get me wrong. I am a fan of just about every culture when it comes to weapons. That is why I enjoy making them myself.

My main point is the way they are maid weather it is a knife, a broad sword (generic term) or a Quan Doe is good. The Japanese just happened to be really good at it, it's a fact there is no debating it, they made an awesome sword. Other people did too not just the Japanese, no one is mentioning anything about swords sucking but you:D

[Cipher]

Originally posted by Liokault
Cipher

You need to do some more reading about this instead of trying to hold on to your ideas in the faqce of clear evcidance guy.

I posted my other response before I saw yours.

Well, you see I have been studying how to make weapons have have done so for a while, not that it means anything special but at least I understand the technical side of how the swords were made.

Please show me again what the clear evidence is that the sword smithing of China and Europe were much better than the Japanes. I don't mean something someone posted on a forum either but a sword smith explaining how they made the swords, like what proccess in making the steel, how they forged it, how they tempered it, how they prepared it etc. etc. Seriously, I like to learn this stuff so if you have a site explaining technical info on the smithing proccess from start to end please post it and I will make my own conclusion on if it is much better, the same, or worse than the Japanes methods. Not that what I think makes a difference but I know enough to be able to tell if it would performe like a Japanese made blade.

Sheesh, I should have know better than to make a positive comment about a Japanese sword on a Chinese Kung Fu forum:)

[Braden]

Cipher - It's hard to take you seriously when, by your own admition, you won't even read the 'proof' you ask for. "but a sword smith explaining how they made the swords, like what proccess in making the steel, how they forged it, how they tempered it, how they prepared it" That's exactly what I posted. I'm not sure why you only 'read the highlights' and then decided to argue about what it did or didn't say, and then said no one is willing to give you proof.

Even harder to take you seriously when you put words in people's mouths so you can disagree with them. eg "no one is mentioning anything about swords sucking but you" I did? Where? "To say that the literaly average sword is better made than a good Japanese sword is ignorant." Who said that, other than you? Not to mention the attitude: "If you like, I can give you a few pointers...Don't give up keep at it and you will learn"

"it's a fact there is no debating it, they made an awesome sword" Uh huh.

"The Japanese just happened to be really good at it"

They sure were. No one has suggested otherwise. So were other people.

[KC Elbows]

This thread is a proud moment in the history of metallurgy.:p :D

BTW, I've heard that modern brazilian steel is much better than traditional...

...oh, never mind. What's the fun in trolling a thread that's already arguing anyway?

[crumble]

http://swordforum.com/summer99/kat-vs-rap.html

"So, after all this I am reluctant to form an opinion of one over another, but I have to say I really don't know one way or the other. I have tremendous respect for kenjutsu's excellent technique and its ferocious cutting ability, yet I favor the rapier's innovative fence and vicious mechanics. Though it's very fun to speculate on, I think "who would win" between a rapier swordsman and a samurai is a moot question and unanswerable. Thus, what it eventually gets down to is not the weapon or even the art, but the individual (their conditioning and attitude) and the circumstances. Bottom line, it's about personal skill."

[Cipher]

<<"Cipher - It's hard to take you seriously when, by your own admition, you won't even read the 'proof' you ask for. "but a sword smith explaining how they made the swords, like what proccess in making the steel, how they forged it, how they tempered it, how they prepared it" That's exactly what I posted. I'm not sure why you only 'read the highlights' and then decided to argue about what it did or didn't say, and then said no one is willing to give you proof.">>

I read the full artical before my last post. This is fine but it only covers how the damascus steel is forged and it is still much different than what the Japanese made, not the proccess but the steel, not that what the Japanese made was any better. Damascus is a whole new topic in itself. In case anyone is worried about myth #1 he is talking about a totaly different method or proccess than how the Japanese made their hard edge and soft spine.



<<"Even harder to take you seriously when you put words in people's mouths so you can disagree with them. eg "no one is mentioning anything about swords sucking but you" I did? Where? ">>

"The only place you'll find the claim that japanese katanas would slice through other swords and were far superior due to secret japanese process is comic books and roleplaying games."

This sure sounds like they suck to me. Please forgive my lack of an exact quote.



<<" To say that the literaly average sword is better made than a good Japanese sword is ignorant. Who said that, other than you?">>

What!? There have been several comments that many other swords were better quality than the Japanes swords. I don't mean you inparticular. Sorry, my comments kind of meld together. I should make them more specific.


<<"Not to mention the attitude:">>

You are right. Sorry.



<<"it's a fact there is no debating it, they made an awesome sword" Uh huh.

"The Japanese just happened to be really good at it"

They sure were. No one has suggested otherwise. So were other people.">>

The past few pages are of arguing that the Japanese swords are not as good as Chinese, English etc. etc. No one specific, but the general opinion from what I have seen is that the Japanese did not have really good quality swords compared to everyone else. All I am saying is they knew their stuff. I never said the Japanese were the only ones that could make an awesome blade either.

[greendragon]

maybe just legend but MUSASHI supposedly trounced multiple attackers without even drawing his sword, just whacking them with the scabbard.
on the smithing topic, i heard some modern Chinese DarnGims are made out of leaf springs from old cars. cool.

[Thomas Chen]

To The Top...

[MA fanatic]

I read once that a Samurai would get his sword on the 5th day of the 5th month of his 5th year. Since that day, he never parted with his sword. He slept with it, he bathed with it, and he traveled with it. Finally, the samurai sword was like a part of his body. I doubt someone like that would be easy to kill. In a fight between two swordsmen, the better one would win like SifuAbel said.
MA fanatic

[Nichiren]

What about the clashes between the mongols and the samurai. This is fairly well documented and if you make an assumption that the mongol sword and swordsmen where equal to the chinese(they actually whacked the chinese), than it is possible to do a comparison.

In documentation(e.g. google search) it is stated that one of the problems the mongols faced was the quality of their swords versus the samurai.

But the mongols would probably have won due to superior tactics but the wheater saved the japanes twice.

/Cheers

[Nichiren]

Read Tomas Cheng's excellent post (the new thread!!)...

/Cheers

[Crimson Phoenix]

Greendragon, indeed springs from truck suspensions are very used because it's a very affordable source of rather good steel.
For example, the Achang of south China, an ethny very famous for their knives and smiths, use these springs as a base steel for most of their work. When they need to do exceptional pieces though, they use very fine materials from the mountains.

Nichiren, if you read T. Chen's work, it doesn't seem that obvious that Mongols had bad quality blade...for example, Thomas (can I call you Thomas?? heheheeh) cites Nagayama who, in the japanese blade connoisseur's book (page 21 I believe), says in substance that the japanese were confronted to blades superior to their own in the hands of the mongols (admittedly, Nagayama doesn't cite sources, so it makes it hard to verify).
Thomas also cites that poem from a Japanese princess (during the Sui dynasty I believe) who mentions the quality if Chinese blades...
I'm quoting it all from memory, so go check the site for a blast of a read and precise references...
Anyway it seems acquired that chinese smithing methods were incredibly well developped very early, and the poor quality of chinese blades seems a myth, like the saying that japanese blades are the best in the world (it is not that simple).

Also, many people seem to ignore that the chinese army, after the unification of China by the Han, became very poor...they were once an incredible army, for example, they knew the crossbow 400 years BC, if they wanted to, Alexander's empire would have looked like a midget. In the warring states period, or spring and autumn, they were real killers. BUT, and many people seem to purposely ignore it, after that (mainly at the turn of the first millenium) their armies just became wimps, because 1) it became very very dishonoring to be a soldier, 2) peasants were the major part of the soldiers and only had to assist to training sessions twice a year (that's why Ego Extra's theories about styles being taught in the military make me laugh real hard), 3) they were paid like **** and the list goes on. So eventually, nothing, really nothing, gave courage and fighting spirit to the soldiers, and that's why they consistently got whacked by different determined invaders: Mongols, Qing, the rampages of japanese Wokou etc...
It has less to do with the quality of their weapons per se than with the fact that the Chinese army, once great and without match in the world (crossbow, for example, came more than 1000 years after in the western world), became just a paper tiger.
It's quite well documented, I wonder why people still overlook that...

[Thomas Chen]

Hi Crimson and the rest of the gang

This is just my humble opinion in reply to Crimson Phoenix's comments below, I would like to highlight that the Chinese civilisation's attributes of power and weakness, was a cyclical trend that ascended and descended through time. At times when the Chinese were militarily weak, they were defeated and invaded by their enemies. At times when they were strong, they routed their enemies and penetrated into their lands...

In the Han, Tang and Qing Dynasties, during their peak, the Chinese had defeated and conquered the Turkic-Mongol peoples of the Northwest and controlled Central Asia.

In the early Ming, under the leadership of the early Ming generals such as Hsu Ta, and the 3rd Ming Emperor Zhu De, they had repeatedly defeated the Mongols and repelled them from China; they also went on to launch numerous successful campaigns to attack the Mongols in their motherland Mongolia.

In the middle period of the Ming Dynasty, General Qi Jiguang had successfully trained and drilled his peasant soldiers into a disciplined and effective army; he went on to defeat the Japanese pirates (known as wokou) raiding the south-eastern coast. These pirates consisted of Japanese and Chinese, and I would believe that many of these Japanese were combat-experienced samurai ronin. One notable event was the invasion of 20,000 pirates during the last part of General Qi's campaign against them. They were defeated, killed or captured by the armies led by General Qi and General Yu Dayou, working hand in hand...

The Ming Army, together with the Korean Army, had also successfully fought the Japanese Army to a stalemate in the 1590s in the Korean Peninsula. The Korean navy had also defeated the Japanese navy and forced the Japanese Army to withdraw due to logistical supply problems.


There are many examples of strength and weakness, great victories and defeats, the Chinese Imperial Armies had experienced throughout the centuries.


Other examples of cyclical ascent and decline would include the Greek and Roman Empires, the Islamic Arab caliphates, the Turkish Ottoman Empire, and yes, even the high and mighty Mongol Empire...


I would advise interested readers to withhold their judgement of Chinese military history until they have spent enough time studying 2500 years of Chinese military history in an academic manner. Indeed, one must undertake thorough and comprehensive study of such a complex, intricate and exhausting topic to form a balanced perspective. But unfortunately, there are very few authors/academics in the West specializing in this subject.


Quote by Crimson Phoenix...
"Also, many people seem to ignore that the chinese army, after the unification of China by the Han, became very poor...they were once an incredible army, for example, they knew the crossbow 400 years BC, if they wanted to, Alexander's empire would have looked like a midget. In the warring states period, or spring and autumn, they were real killers. BUT, and many people seem to purposely ignore it, after that (mainly at the turn of the first millenium) their armies just became wimps, because 1) it became very very dishonoring to be a soldier, 2) peasants were the major part of the soldiers and only had to assist to training sessions twice a year (that's why Ego Extra's theories about styles being taught in the military make me laugh real hard), 3) they were paid like **** and the list goes on. So eventually, nothing, really nothing, gave courage and fighting spirit to the soldiers, and that's why they consistently got whacked by different determined invaders: Mongols, Qing, the rampages of japanese Wokou etc...
It has less to do with the quality of their weapons per se than with the fact that the Chinese army, once great and without match in the world (crossbow, for example, came more than 1000 years after in the western world), became just a paper tiger.
It's quite well documented, I wonder why people still overlook that..."

[Crimson Phoenix]

Thanks for the clarification, Thomas, indeed I oversimplified it, for the sake of discussion...
It is very striking that when Chinese generals managed to become creative, uphold a strict military training and a certain prestige among their troops, they could work miracles...hence, Yue Fei kicking out the feared Jins at the coming of the first millenium, inflincting a serious defeat to their Tiger general and his grueseom armored chariots, the Guai Zi Ma...
Also, Qi JiGuang who managed to kick out the wokous using exactly the same ****tail of strategic innovations (even designing, or rather as it seems rediscovering abandonned designs of weapons), maintenance of competent troops and high moral/discipline...
The rest of the time, well, we know what happened...
And even with that, the mongols and mandchous ended up adopting chinese names and customs, almost forming chinese dynasties...so it might be a military defeat, but in the end China always managed to digest the invaders and turn them as Chinese as the Hans!!

[Thomas Chen]

Crimson Phoenix

Wow !!! I am really impressed by your understanding of General Yue Fei of the Northern Song Dynasty and General Qi Jiguang of the Ming Dynasty, as I was just doing some research on both of them. I am really glad to have met and found another like-minded fellow.

Here are some other details, which other readers may be interested to know:

According to the "Official Dynastic History of the Song", the proto-Manchu (known as the Jin) armoured cavalry army had prepared to engage the Song Chinese infantry army in one encounter. The Jins had their heavily armoured soldiers mounted on armoured horses, and had iron chains linked between every 3 horses, making every 3 of them as a singular fighting unit.

On the opposing side, General Yue Fei had equipped his infantry forces with the mazha dao ( a long double-handed sword or polearm) which he specifically instructed his frontline troops to cut the enemy's horses' legs...... Once the horse's legs were chopped off or cut, the other 2 horses would also be immobolized due to the first horse's weight....Afterwhich the Chinese soldiers would finish the enemy riders off.

The end result was a complete defeat of the Jins, making the Jin Commander comment that in his personal experience of combat, that was the very first time he had witnessed an infantry force defeating a cavalry force.....

[Jimbo]

It's not the style, it's the man.
Being individuals, I'm sure some Chinese swordsmen could have beaten some samurai, and some Japanese samurai have beaten Chinese swordsmen.

That said, if both are at a high level, it is not a given that the Chinese swordsmen would win. Most people really underestimate the ability of the old-time, genuine Japanese swordsmen. Maybe they see some demo of kenjutsu or bad choreography of "Japanese" swordsmen in Chinese movies, and make up their mind. In actuality, true Japanese swordsmen at the highest levels had not only extremely high-level skills, but more important, trained their mind to not interfere with themselves and to be totally committed when the opportunity presented itself. Although the Chinese swordsmanship IMO has the capability of more versatility, a lot can be said for that samurai mind-set and experience from many matches. (not to say Chinese swordsmen didn't have that as well).

Jim

[grogan]

Originally posted by PHILBERT


I have 2 katanas, more for show than fighting.


hahahahahahahaha hha ha hah hahahaa ahahhahahahaha hahahaha LMAO hahahahahhah