I dont wanna maim :/

[jon]

This is a wierd question so im just seeking some advice from people who have been though this already...
Im starting to realise that there is a real tendency in tcma to slowly lead towards nearly every movement being designed to either kill or basicaly serverly maim someone.
Is this really always the way? cant the skills also be used to defend without brutaly mauling your attacker?
I understand that these are battlefield arts and also understand the many importances of training for health and moral.
Still I guess i just need to know, how does one still continue to learn forms that are so brutal without questioning your own worth to know them?
I hope to one day teach but i would have a REAL problem handing this kind of knowledge down and im only at a fairly low stage.
Any advice?

you cant win all the time but you cant always lose either...

[honorisc]

Skill determines severity. Basically, it's a choice when you have the Kung-Fu. The more skill the less need to kill.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[MasterPhil]

Keep training. You are not completely wrong but you are not completely right either. Just keep training and your concerns will dissolve over time.

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

[Shaolin36]

This is how these arts were taught in their original form-for survival. To change the objection would turn them into a sport or dilute them from their original roots. Maybe you want to try out a sport martial art like TKD?

Shaolin36

[The Whyzyrd]

You must also realize that a lot of what you train for includes "killing" or "maiming" targets but in practice you don't HAVE to use those targets. So hit different targets.

For example, if you train in a form to strike with a pheonix eye to the throat (ie. a killing blow), and you need to use it in a simple street fight use a fist to the face instead. The form is the same and the training is the same but the PRACTITIONER is the one who chooses to kill or not.

The same is true for locks and such - you lock up your opponents arm - you can through the entire motion and tear up the elbow joint and really hurt the guy or you can choose to go only to the point of discomfort and control.

Again, you choose what to do with your art. This is thinking as opposed to blindly doing.

"The Wolf does not regard the barking dog"

[jon]

Thank you all for your insights.
I guess i should have been a little more upfront about what i do and how long ive trained...
Im a Hung Ga student of 5 years and ive actualy done several other ma as well including tkd so im in cma now for good reason not least of which being a very good instructor.
I also understand that the indivudal can decided on the level of skill to be used. Still i have learned more respect for arts like Tai Chi and Akido that seek to overcome without using force.
This is not to say i dont know techs for not killing or not hurting but i guess im just starting to fully comprehend the danger of what i know...
Really just looking for advice on how others feel about having such knowledge and if it affects there thinking.
Still thank you for any imput, still errr telling me to do a sport ma is not what i was after...

you cant win all the time but you cant always lose either...

[honorisc]

Anger like Lust fades; make no actions from Anger~.

If I can't fix it, I don't break it.

I am expendable. Living with the killing of someone(s) and the ripples of Revenge, blind Hate, Sorrow, Guilt...is~ merely waiting to die.

--Have no regret. Temper every action with the hindsight of forethought~.--Ernie Moore Jr. Some such.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Cody]

No_Know said it perfectly.

Controlled, and measured action should be taught in conjunction with the techniques themselves. Students should practice this together.

The training you do for yourself. You don't want to maim. Fine. Under what conditions would you go all out. Define them. Know the point at which you put yourself in no hesitation, survival mode and where that would lead you. Know it is there in you to do this, and, after thorough consideration, accept it as right. Then consider how modifications of these techniques can achieve a moderate resolution.

The impression that Aikido and T'ai Chi function without the use of force is a fairy tale. There is plenty of force, harnessed in ways that are hidden. Let's put it this way. A punch is a punch in Hung Ga or T'ai Chi. On higher levels, it is the energy in both that is doing the work. Paths and appearances are different.

If you take responsibility for what you do and what you think, taking the time to program your mind along with your body as to what responses are appropriate, that should be enough to carry you for quite some time. It might help you to think about how what you are learning serves to protect you (defense), while allowing for a choice of offense. The choice becomes more apparent with skill.
At any level, responsibility and accountability are necessary. I also think that you struggle with the idea of this teaching which is for war. In war there are no rules, by its very nature. You fight via the rules of your nature, which are trained to function in this arena. Establish them. Train for a brutal confrontation. Also train for the intermediate, and to avoid the unnecessary.
If you are afraid of what you might do, there are ways of finding out without getting anyone hurt. Is that going on here too? Not clear.

Something else that might ease your mind. There is one heck of a difference between defense or necessary aggression and enjoying the suffering of others, even those who apparently deserve every bit of it. In terms of the concept of worthiness, this would be germane.

Cody

[honorisc]

"If you are afraid of what you might do, there are ways of finding out without getting anyone hurt. Is that going on here too? Not clear."

As far as going on too, one theoretically couldn't Ever Know. You can think about the situations and variations of each~. And the realizations from those would be highly informative (presupposing you don't logic-leap-frog--form conclusions or go to a next step omitting factors that would influence what the Actual possible outcomes could/would be, from the last situation or aspect(s) of that(those)).

The uniqueness of Intimmidation, self-doubt,uncertainties, assurednesses, motivations...a video called "Back to the Future", has a complete Cool-guy-want-to-be (wanna be), nervous, false bravado, and uncertain of his comming out on top (not wrestling nor Brazilian Jujitsu nor (freaky) sexual intercourse). But when he's (If you might be interested to see this video~DVD for the first time you might should skip to the next paragrah to continue reading because this next part might spoil your thorough enjoyment of the talkie)........................................... .................................................. ....................submitting from Doubt, Intimidation, lack of Faith in himself he notices the girl he's loved~ for quite awhile. Yet, hasn't strongly revealed his would-likes with her. It's even a factor that she loves him too but hasn't expressed this nor necessarily realized it herslf. It's a factor in that if it is Love, he's getting feedback from her, of desires, fears, concerns. Being tied into a receptive system of factors which influence us yet are outside of us can be augmenting, and seems significant. He realizes a Need for her well-being (after the boy gets knocked out, the girl he loves gets raped) then there's living with, you were between the psychological stress and social outcasting of your Love being raped and her well being, and you didn't/couldn't/ wouldn't divert the out come to her well being. There's probablly more, but possibilities are not all to be addressed. Be aware that they are there. This guides one as to whether to continue, which refers to How to continue. And the possibilities should be grouped (categorized). And look within the confines of generalization to get the specifics required of best preferred outcome in retrospct. I didn't mention the completion of the part that I warned them off from reading the rest of this paragraph...

Next paragraph. And it's likely not a spoiler if you go back and finish the last paragraphh. :-) The simulations of situations only draw a picture that falls short of the Actual. Be aware that you Cannot validly Test what you can do. Be Humble in the Awareness that you are awesome (only the arrogant can be Humble-by Ernie Moore Jr.). It Should scare you. And, hope each day that you don't find out how awesome you are, as the ripples, Tsunami. Getting past the boiling point, water becomes air. There can be a Lightness of Beingwhen you get passed the Anger, Fear(Intrepedation), hate-instinct, Sorrow, Regret, peer-pressure, self-doubt, Uncertainty...Be like water. :->

Hopefully, I don't

[This message was edited by No_Know on 11-10-01 at 05:00 AM.]

[Cody]

I'll be back later. I'm interested in your reply, but know that you're not one to take on a fast read.
later,
Cody

[jon]

Thank you both very much for your time and replys they have both given me a lot to think about as well as making me feel somewhat better about this.
One thing i have to say has helped a lot was finaly discussing it with my sifu, i had for a long time been worried he would not understand or would think me aloof. Truth of course was that he was very understanding and said one thing which made me feel a bit more at ease. He simply said HE wouldnt be teaching me this if he didnt think i was worthy of the knowledge let alone if he thought i might use it improperly. I guess on this respect im going to trust his judgement he knows these areas and affects better than me.
I dont want people thinking i cant control myself or that im learning. I can and im also a compasionate person so its not in my nature to misuse this kind of skills.
Also one more thing i have come to realise. Its better to have the skills and not need them than to need them and not have them.
Still thanks heaps guys your words have given me much to think about and have really helped a lot during my little moral dilema.
Thanks again

you cant win all the time but you cant always lose either...

[Steven T. Richards]

You won't know the answer to your questions (except in theory) until you've been tested by real life. By 'tested' I don't mean anything so gentle as the sub-culture of a Pai or a Kwoon, but in a real in the dirt event, or indeed in several such occurances. It's suprising how little
of lifes fundamental threats, challenges and moral dilemas form up within the 'pulp' of MA teaching and training. You won't find your answer within a martial arts style, you'll have to search your own humanity including its shadow side. A lot of 'teachers' have never been 'there' and a lot of students get by vicariously on other peoples fights; real or imagined. This comfort zone is no place for questions of morality: without a potential for 'choice' in a real situation with all of its unique and convoluted variables there is no real morality - only an 'idea' about it to act as a displacement.

[blaktiger]

Shaolin Temple Creed? This should help - it has certainly helped me:

You must find the ways to preserve life, instead of destroy.

To avoid, rather than check
To check, rather than hurt
To hurt, rather than maim
To main, rather than kill

For all life is precious, nor can any life ever be replaced. Not even that of the meanest creature.

I have interpreted that as avoiding confrontations alltogether, but being African-American, a former Marine, living in a lower class (sic) mostly mexican neighborhood, I've seem to find trouble. Learn all your art has to offer, then temper what you have learned with the philosophy, and you will be fine.

But remember, your opponent may not share your sense of humanist values, and may try to take from you that which you value most - your life or the life of an accompanying loved one. This is why we learn the martial arts in the first place.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I'll be too busy lookin' good!"

[fiercest tiger]

welcome to kfo, joseph teaches at parramatta am i correct?

im at greystanes if you ever wanna visit please feel free to do so. :)

respect

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[Cody]

when up against a wall. thoughts, questions, ways, practice, vigilance of the self.

I think there can be opportunity to test one's nature within a school setting. That, combined with intense introspection and honest questioning, goes beyond the theoretical. For me, this involved trusting my teacher with my life, and realizing that he had power to stop me if necessary. He didn't have to.

In school, the presence of a bully or one who would abuse a physically weaker student to humiliate or the injure, is not unheard of. It happens. Situations like this can bring out abilities and character traits in the challenged that might not be otherwise available for view. I see this as one way of beginning a practical exam of one's nature and potential to take certain kinds of action.

If a person, like myself and the querent of this thread and others, questions propensity to violence, and rightness of the means within the hands of one's self and others, and beyond that, that indicates the possibility of real conscience, and that is the beginning. Next, to realize upon what that conscience is based, and to find the self.

Before the physical letting go, there is the emotional. If that is done to the extreme, even under relatively controlled circumstances, enough knowledge can be derived to sufficiently answer important parts of the question at hand. It goes beyond the theoretical. It continues. When later confronted with a situation outside of the framework of student-student relationships, does the person decide he can get away with it and go beyond necessary action, or does the solemnity of this make one realize that this is for keeps? In other words, does outside violent confrontation provide not just the necessity for defense, but an opportunity to express a violent tendency (not talking about causes here)?

I feel strongly that it is possible to predict, up to a point, how a person will react. Does the person like it when others hurt, physically or emotionally? Is the person masking mean aggression with very soft-spoken submissive behaviors? I'm sure there are other indicators. If honest self-evaluation over a period of time is engaged in, and if a trusted teacher (on a master's level in my case) is witness, it is more than likely that certain predictions can be made, grey areas accepted and included.

Other issues, such as retalliation, vengeance become more advanced, I think, as situations increse in degree of severity. Retalliation. It's like then it never ends. Goes back and forth like a ping pong ball. I don't like that. With retalliation, hatred is not necessarily involved, in my view.

In war, the issue of a dark vengeance comes up, very dark. Things are done, broken, killed that can't be replaced. Yet, it seems best to reject vengeance. It involves hatred. It's tricky.

No-Know, I must admit to getting lost in your discourse on "Back to the Future." That was the Michael J. Fox, Christopher Lloyd flick, yes? It's been a while since I saw it. I'll read the post again in a couple of days and see if anything gets thru. Don't sweat it.
I like what you wrote after. It does scare me. Going beyond the punch, into the invisible, there is a fear. Where thought is action with no in between and the thought is one's fiber, to realize that is a terrifying moment, and to see it in others is humbling. I have wondered how we manage to survive. thank you.

Cody

[jon]

Again thanks heaps guys for all your info ive been going though it all in my head. Starting to get a grip but have a way to go yet.
FT
Yes Jo is out at Parra :}
I will certainly drop in and see you guys some time im eager to learn more about your system and you certainly seem to have a good knowledge base.
To all those that wouldnt think it...
Sydney is a haven for some amazing kung fu masters. Many are spread out but there skill and dedication to there respected arts always make me feel like a part of a big kung fu family.
And this is in the land of beers and pies mind you hehe.

you cant win all the time but you cant always lose either...