Internal to external- have any of you

[dnc101]

ever seriously applied internal principals to an external art? You often hear that any external art can be done with internal principals. I just wondered if any of you do this, and if you could share some examples.

[Fu-Pow]

Internal and external refer to power. Internal arts hide the power, external arts show it. Some arts have elements of both. The means of developing these types of power is different, so how could you really apply one to another? For example if I through a punch in the Shaolin style you would see and feel the tension in my arm as I hit. If I did a Taiji punch you would never see tension in my arm, you wouldn't even think that my punch had very much power.... although the power would still be there....because I was using internal body mechanics that the external puncher wasn't using. If I was an external puncher and I tried to make my punch LOOK internal but I didn't understand the internal mechanic then my punch would still be external but i wouldn't even be a good external punch anymore. Then there's the alternate scenario where I might be able to combine internal and external mechanics to combine power. The bottom line is that unless you understand the training in internal arts you can't just make your external art....internal. Over a life time of practice you may develop some internal power that you combine with your external mechanic but it will take you a long time to figure this out on your own. This is why you need a competent teacher who understand the mechanics of it. You can't just learn it by watching it. Who's to say which method is better or more powerful?

[SevenStar]

shuai chiao is an external art that internal principles can be applied to. you can put jing in a throw, whipping your opponent into the ground.

[fa_jing]

I have been playing a little recently with using some spine action with my vertical fist punch.
-FJ

[BSH]

There are many threads on Internal v External and what is Internal and Does Internal exist.

Based on my definition of Internal, my art trains both the internal and external. We learn the external aspects of strikes and kicks as well as how to use Ch'i/Ginn.

It is the only way to go in my opinion, but it takes a lot of time to train.

[Water Dragon]

I went from Taiji to Shuai Chiao. Internal vs. external are only references to applying power. That if, if there are really any differences at all. I think that each art has it's own flavor, simple as that.

What I CAN say is that in order to learn an art, you must learn that art's flavor. But there will always be that other influence in there. My Shuai Chiao is very "touchy-feely" compared to my teachers and class mates, but you'll definately know where I've been trained.

[BSH]

Waterdragon,

Only in the most simplified terms would I agree with your statement. But you would have to have a different definition of "Power" than I do.

There is so much more to Internal. On a simple level, Internal is about the cultivation and understanding of energy while External is about the cultivation and understanding of muscles and tendons.

[Fu-Pow]

There is so much more to Internal.On a simple level, Internal is about the cultivation and understanding of energy while External is about the cultivation and understanding of muscles and tendons.

Of course you've always got the "spirtitual" aspect of internal arts which no one but yourself can really attune to, but is this what we're really talking about when we say "internal?" As we are made of bones, tendons, ligaments, organs, nerves etc. we should strive to look for a definition of "internal" that fits within our own paradigm not necessarily within the traditional Eastern one.

My definition of internal is spiral power that comes from ligaments
and tendons. It is completely relaxing the body and using muscle groups not normally under autonomous control to support and move the body. The inner workings of the ligaments and tendons create heat which people associate with "chi." The larger muscle groups become like huge rubber bands providing "stretching power" rather than power that comes from muscular contraction. Once the body is relaxed the blood flows more easily (which people also associate with "chi") and blood reaches the extremities. On a mental level the mind is focused yet calm. The idle "chatter" of the brain dissappears and all focus is to the activity at hand.

Other arts may have other definitions but this is my working definition.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Go cjheck out Adam Hsu's 'Sword Polishers Record' for the dozens of theories on internal & external. Most people I meet use the terms but have a hard time defining them.

I use these definitions:

Internal Martial Arts : Develops power from the body core outwards. This recognizes that the most powerful vectors of the body are NOT the hinge joints of the extremities. Noticable effect- ability to generate force in all directions.

External Martial Arts: Relys on muscular strength and whipping velocity to create force. Limited to exhibiting force in the limbs.

Qi-Gong: Breath / energy work focused on development of your Qi-body.

Wei-Gong: Breath / energy work focused on muscular tendonal development.

But everybody has thier own definitions of these terms, so I am thinking of tossing them out and replacing them with English terms to prevent confusion. Too much time is wasted pondering what people mean, and not enough time doing.