Double punch.

[Mr Punch]

Chum choi?

I don't like it! I can't get any power, and I don't know when to use it!

How do you get power?! How do you use it?!

Daft, I know, but my sifu's answers don't fit with my experience... OK, OK, I just can't get it to work!

[red5angel]

Something interesting about the double punch. I have mostly seen it done with the fist lined up one over the other but recently we started playing with it sort of seperated by a couple of fist lengths. This way if your opponent turns the you have a better chance of connecting.

[stuff]

hmm, I asked my sifu about it a while back and he said it was only for development. :confused:

[yuanfen]

Mat; I it well could be that your pectorals and deltoids are not
softened up enough. I get more power than I can use when I do
the double punching. The forms are not sequences of techniques.
ALL motions in the forms develop some specific principles and targeted skill development. Just as the regular basic punch- for air punching its full extension- for application it can be very very short. If you do enough double punching...both fists will fly right down the centerline unless you are the old Arnie- then the pecs will push them out till you become soft. The double punching
gets you to equally balance both sides of your body. It helps you provide the foundations for all sorts of two handed attacks-
including for instance the po pai jeung. You can do it as a devlopmental drill. Because of its rich possibilitities for devlopment- Augustine Fong inserted it in the section of the slt which has two handed motions.

[Mr Punch]

Thanks.

I don't have a problem with po pai though, which is strange... maybe the combination of rolling the hands back and using both fists somehow brings the tension to my shoulders.

But why would it have any advantage as a drill or a technique over one punch or a combo/chain?

[black and blue]

I've not seen this used in the club I train at. Is it practised widely?

Joy - You said Sifu Fong inserted it into SLT. Was it in originally and removed by Yip Man? What are its rich possibilies for development?

Does anyone know how far the fists should be spaced apart? I was thinking the closer they are the easier it must be to deal with them.

Ta

[edward]

the double punch was orignally taught to sifu fong by Master Ho just for training. However, it was no where to be found in any of the forms. Thus, sifu put the double punch into the 1st form so it can be referenced by the students.

[Ish]

so where in the first form do they do there double punch.

[yuanfen]

Double punch is inserted in the sequence after the double biu sau,
then sink the elbows/jut then double punch.
The double punch was used asa a drill by both Yip Man and Ho Kam Ming. Again, if you see Chao and Weakland(Chow wasa Ip man private student and has no connection with Sifu Fong) you will seea double punch drill. he even has Weakland practicing his kwan sao against the double punch. The double punch is FOUNDATION work...combinations are more applications Mat.
It really develops some important two shoulder balancing skills.

Mat- the double bears doing chi sao was forst used by Bob Gahl in the Bay Area home page.

[Wingman]

yuanfen,

Just some clarification. You mentioned that the double punch was inserted by Augustine Fong in the SLT. Does this mean that the double punch in SLT is not found in other Yip Man lineage? I'm not from Yip Man lineage, but the double punch is included in our SLT.

[yuanfen]

Wingman- Great. I did not imply that others dont have it. Simply that all lineages dont do it. At times some ignorant folks claim
that things that our line does in the forms have been imported from somewhere else- not so. We do only wing chun . Just that some folks looking at the pics taken just before Ip man died or
the pics arranged by one or two individuals is the "authentic" wing chun. They mistake the pictures for the subject.

[TjD]

the double punch isnt in the SLT we train, however thats not to say i've never used it! :)

it's fun to pull off against beginning chi sau players at our school, empties their cup a little, and shows them how open their center is


question for those people who have it in their SLT and use it:

do your double punches have more elbows moving in energy (po pi), or elbows moving up energy (straight punch)?

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by yuanfen
The double punch is FOUNDATION work...


That's what I suspected but one of my sifu has tried to teach me applications which don't appear very useful, for reasons Black and Blue has mentioned, among others.


combinations are more applications Mat.

Yes, I would agree, but I was meaning chain punches, not combinations involving more than one technique. I usually call two chain punches a 'double punch' which would have caused confusion on this thread!! Sorry, I still didn't help!



It really develops some important two shoulder balancing skills.

OK, thanks Joy, but could you explain the difference in the mechanics of these two-shoulder balancing skills and any other double hand movement in the forms...? Why does this have any advantages over, say, the double jut and biu in slt for loosening up your shoulders or chest muscles? Or for any other reason...?

Not testing; just curious!


Mat- the double bears doing chi sao was forst used by Bob Gahl in the Bay Area home page.

Oh yes, I knew I'd seen it somewhere apart from the page I lifted it from...

[S.Teebas]

The double punch is FOUNDATION work..

Im not sure if you mean you dont use this in real application? (i cant see why you wouldn't ?) ..the mechanics seem the same as any other arm movement. ie the joint rotation with correct tension/relaxation etc etc..

Arn't all the forms foundations work?

[yuanfen]

Mat- the double punch energy is focused at the cross line between nipples(most) and the centerline- best place to practice regular punching as well-- loosens up all the rust. Nothing wrong with jut and biu...but the fact that you are not comfortable with the double punch means to me that may be you should do some.
There maybe some remaining tightness here and there.

Teebas- sure you can use the double punch if the circumstances are right but you do not mechanically begin with that intention.
Depends on what the circumstances are and what the other fella is doing.

[Shadowboxer]

Try Seung Kuen with your phon sao. Use it with oi/noi pak and lop fak, for starters. You can catch people of guard with it. They might deflect the top hand but the bottom usually slips through unless they are quick with Kwan sao. It takes very little to penetrate the body with seung kuen.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Im not sure if you mean you dont use this in real application? That would be analogous to throwing a tan sau & a punch forward at the same time. Not optimal...

[Mr Punch]

Sorry Shadowboxer, we don't use any of those Chinese terms in our school!

[IronFist]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
That would be analogous to throwing a tan sau & a punch forward at the same time. Not optimal...

Why not? I do a tan da all the time. What's wrong with it?

IronFist

[Mr Punch]

Depends on the situation...

but if you throw them both forward at the same time, strictly along the centreline, it can present a gift to your opponent and tends to lessen the power of the punch if you're not careful. Plus the action of the punch should be enough to deflect or ride your opponent's incoming without resorting to the tan.

The tan da would be useful if you are on the outside and you want to disrupt your opponent's structure by causing him to turn, or on the inside against a hook for example (I usually prefer biu myself but you can get a nice power bounce from the tan...). In both of these cases, your tan elbow is in but your tan is not necessarily straight along your centreline.

BTW, thanks again Joy. I know it's a weak point, so I do practise it a lot, I do... but I still want to know why I need to!! All of the foundation work in WC as far as I can see (maybe not far!) has applications...

[Shadowboxer]

After you attempt pak da(slapping hand), your partner blocks your da with pak sao, pak his blocking arm with your original paking hand and "skip off" his arm and punch the mid-section. This is oi/noi (outside/inside)pak. Seung kuen is 2 punches.
After you attempt pak da, your partner blocks with pak sao, lop his pak sao hand and attempt a fak (strike to the neck). Your loping hand shoots in as he deflects your fak OR after he blocks your fak, lop it (it's more like a jut) and punch in. All the while you maintain a grip with your first lop, jut and punch . So, you kind of pull both arms down/toward you just enough to create some energy and punch. This can pull them off balance slightly and into your 2 punches. Hope this makes sense.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by IronFist
Why not? I do a tan da all the time. What's wrong with it? Nothing wrong with tan da, Ironfist. But as yuanfen often puts it, "The devil is in the details".

[IronFist]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I haven't been on kfo in a while so sorry for the delayed response.

IronFist

[S.Teebas]

That would be analogous to throwing a tan sau & a punch forward at the same time. Not optimal...

Point taken. But would you agree that 'optimal' is only in relation to the situation.
I only mention this becaue one of my class mates can use this movement almost at will on many people. Its all in the setup, and knowledge of whats going to happen a few 'moves' down the track (action-reaction). Like a good chess player can think 4 or 5 moves ahead in responce to his own actions etc..

[Mr Punch]

But this is an interesting point.

'Optimal' is indeed for the situation: but surely that's the situation NOW, not three or four moves 'down the line'.

I can used double punch if I set it up that way (I'll go back to my original example, cos I don't have a problem with tan da in a few situations), but I'd rather let my moves come as a natural reflex.

The 'chess' analogy is fine in chi sau with experienced (and therefore to some degree predictable or playable 'opponents') but I think it's a dangerous mindset for reflex application. I don't want to 'set up' strikes four moves down the line, when someone isn't gonna play by the same principles.

[S.Teebas]

After I wrote that I guessed id get a similar response to the one you wrote.

See the analogous relationship?

True to Wc ideals, the response is never forced. But after thousands of repetitions and experimenting with/and experiencing reactions in relation to force and the outcome that a structure will form..in relation to certain input. A 'catalogue' of common or 'expected' responses will be ingrained. These are used to set-up someone.
After the reactive stage of chi sau, comes a pro-active one. Of course this can only be done by a practioner who has a lot of experience/high level of skill. Something i'm aiming for!

[Wingman]

When doing chi sao, I plan at least 3 moves ahead just like in chess. You might say that it's not going to work because you cannot predict how your opponent will react. You may be right. But you can limit his options so that you can predict with some accuracy what his next moves will be. That's what chi sao is all about -- "listening" to your opponent to know his intentions.

For example:
Your opponent attacks and you counter with a tan da. His best option would probably be a pak sao with his free hand... Well, maybe not a pak sao, but his best option would be to use his free hand. Knowing this, you can prepare to deal with his free hand and maybe trap it. After he is trapped, you can end with a strike.

Of course, he can use his attacking hand to bong sao. But it may not be his best option because your tan sao can easily convert into a lop sao (grab) and control his arm.

In an ideal situation, the techniques stated above will work. But in the real world, it may not. Why? Because your opponent has also plans of his own. He is also planning at least 3 moves ahead!

This is what makes chi sao interesting. It is as much a mind game as it is a physical one.

[Mr Punch]

But, basically you're saying you can pull off a double-punch or any other dodgy technique if you set it up first?

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
But would you agree that 'optimal' is only in relation to the situation.I only mention this becaue one of my class mates can use this movement almost at will on many people.It's not an issue of whether to use tan da or not. It's an issue of how you use it. I can use tan da at will, myself. It's a nice ego feeder, but it's a waste of time to use it that way...