Footwork

[red5angel]

Lately I have talked a lot about rooting, and deep stance work when training etc... The idea is that although you may go deep in training, you are developing your root so that you may not have to go down so deep.
One point that was brought up over and over again was the idea that a deeper stance means you loose mobility. We all know that wingchun footwork is formidable, and we should all be aware that it is even more so with a good strong root. any loss of mobility in my mind would be slight.
You could choose to hop around like guys in JKD, I have seen some WC people take this approach, but what do you have? A huge waste of energy! While I am standing there relaxed and waiting for you, you are hopping around and wasitng all that energy, without even making contact!
Most WC people take a middle of the road approach. they root a little and work on footwork a little, thinking good root and goor footwork = awesome wingchun, to me you just get middle of the road wingchun! Now you have a little mobility but not enough to keep up with the guys out there who practice it exclusively, and you have a little root but not enough to pit against those guys who train it exclusively.
Training for a good root and proper structure should give you all the footwork you should need. If you are fighting an opponent who keeps hopping away from you, then does he really want to fight? Maybe hop in ad hop out? thats great until he hops in, you stick to him and follow him back, then where does he go?
I think all in all a good solid foudation gives you everything you need to have the footwork to fight highly effectively, this is of coure if you put in the time and energy to doing it right!

[fa_jing]

Red - I think you are oversimplifying a little. Stick and follow will not work unless you spend a lot of effort training your footwork to keep up. There is nothing inherently wrong with a lower stance - many styles use stances far lower than ours. The key is developing mobility with the stance you use. All the bouncing you may see in JKD or boxing is properly applied outside of the contact area. No good practicioner of any style will bounce when in contact stage with the opponent. An exception of sorts - they might skip back, so you need to have explosive forward energy to keep up with them, or just let them go.

-FJ

[[Censored]]

What does "root" mean to you? Think carefully before answering.

[reneritchie]

[censored] - Are you permitting the Australian's to answer that? ;)

Red - We borrow from the 36 stategies the saying "Yee Yaat Toi Lo"

RR

[red5angel]

Censored - root means several things, biomechanically, strong legs (developed doing the deep stance) help, the connectivity of your body to absorb and direct energy through each joint and on to the next one down to the ground. rooting goes much deeper then just the stance.....

FJ - "Stick and follow will not work unless you spend a lot of effort training your footwork to keep up" thats exactly what I am saying, but here is the thing, if you go to stick and move and the guy tries to get away, you have the initiative but if he keeps jumping and hopping out of range you arent fighting you are dancing. I would let that sort of person keep dancing, until he grows tired........

RR - forgive me for not understanding the chinese, could you interpret for me?

[[Censored]]

A bit of introspection is long overdue; Sorry, No Australians. ;)

And would you mind explaining this one, please?

"Training for a good root and proper structure should give you all the footwork you should need. "

[apoweyn]

no offense, red5angel, but if the slight movement you're supposed to maintain in a JKD-boxing mode of footwork tires you out, you've got no place being in the fight in the first place. and counting on the opponent wearing themselves out that way is kind of folly.

watch a boxer closely. they're high in their stance and moving around until it's 'go' time. then they sink into something strikingly similar to a bow-and-arrow stance to fire their combo. then they're right back into that footwork. personally, i like this approach. here's why: to me, it's faster to be mobile and then to drop into a stance than it is to be low and then to rise up into footwork.

that said, i know many styles don't advocate rising in your stances and footwork. i'm not advocating one over the other. but i think, as has been suggested, that you've oversimplified the matter too much.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

Hey ap, I know what you are saying, I think mainly I am talking from a wingchun point of view. Boxing does what works for them, and JKD does whatever they feel like at the moment ;) and wingchun should do what works for it. I am not convinced that hopping around works for the art. Too wasteful. I understand what you are saying about getting tired but its a waste of energy in my opinion. Whether you have trained hard for it or not, hopping takes more energy then standing and I would be willing to bet more then even sliding.
To me simplicity is the key. Keep it simple!

[Axiom]

So it's a silly idea to 'hop around', just on principle, never mind whether it works in practice?

[EnterTheWhip]

What happens when your opponent has a better root than yourself?

[anerlich]

Stability and mobility are both essential, yin and yang if you like.


You could choose to hop around like guys in JKD...
JKD does whatever they feel like at the moment ...

If you know nothing about JKD, or taiji as was evidenced on earlier threads about Carl and Ken, do yourself and everybody else a favour and don't talk about it. Especially I suggest you don't use it as a straw man.

"Hopping around" has nothing to do with effective mobility.


I think mainly I am talking from a wingchun point of view
You are talking from your WC experience, which as has been noted before is not of great duration or IMO unusual in its insight.

We all know that wingchun footwork is formidable
Do we? How would you explain that to another stylist? Say one of your JKD guys who fight by hopping around?

If you are fighting an opponent who keeps hopping away from you, then does he really want to fight?
If you are fighting an opponent who just stands there, then does HE really want to fight?

To me simplicity is the key. Keep it simple!
To paraphrase Albert Einstein, "the universe should be as simple as possible, but no simpler."

[vingtsunstudent]

hey red,
do me a favour, go get in a fight & just stand there waiting.
you are a dill & it is odvious you haven't fought.
do you ever think before you open your mouth or is it that it is never closed due to the amount carls rrrrssss you have in it.
vts

[sunkuen]

The croc hunters are on to yer scent red5......CRIKEY!!!!! The crock O'**** hunters ,that is!!!

[OdderMensch]

So it's a silly idea to 'hop around', just on principle, never mind whether it works in practice?

You know i could make some silly remark about working in practice, not in a fight.......nah.

however i've watched WC people practice the boxers shuffle before (it even seemed like a good shuffle) however a boxers whole uper body game is made to work with that shuffle right?

for example as apoweyn points out

watch a boxer closely. they're high in their stance and moving around until it's 'go' time. then they sink into something strikingly similar to a bow-and-arrow stance to fire their combo. then they're right back into that footwork. personally, i like this approach. here's why: to me, it's faster to be mobile and then to drop into a stance than it is to be low and then to rise up into footwork.

it seems you would either have to drop in and out of a wing chun stace (too much for me, too much of a risk in close) or learn to create strikes from a bow and arrow type posture. or both ?

oh and EnterTheWhip, steal it :D

[anerlich]

Steve Irwin was born in OZ, so we have to accept him.

The US took him into their hearts BY CHOICE.

The plastic action figures of him were the Yanks' idea not ours!

Seriously, I don't mind him, it's hard to dislike a guy so genuinely enthusiastic, even if he is nuts..Though if that's all it took, maybe Red5 would have HIS own TV show one day.

[red5angel]

Axiom "So it's a silly idea to 'hop around', just on principle, never mind whether it works in practice?"

It works in practice for boxers, if it works for your wingchun you are doing your wingchun wrong. Thats great then if it works for you but dont call it wingchun. The hopping around doesnt work for it, wasnt designed to work for it. How much hopping around do you think Yip Man did? Maybe thats where Bruce Lee got his idea to hop around? Nah.....

VTS, do me a favor and read my post again. You missed the point completely. Jumping around might work for some, but not wingchun (Although mixing it with JKD might work right Anerlich? Or how about a little BJJ? They hop dont they?) I never said when a fight goes down you just stand there, just that I am not going to chase some bunny imitating idiot who thinks his fancy footwork is going to save him. Wingchun is about being rooted, and having a solid connection. Boxers have it for a brief moment as they punch, but as Oddermensch pointed out, it works for them because their art has integrated it.

Anerlich - "Do we? How would you explain that to another stylist? Say one of your JKD guys who fight by hopping around?

If you are fighting an opponent who just stands there, then does HE really want to fight? "

How do I explain it to another fighter? With my hands Anerlich, or maybe I could tuck and roll, maybe do a little fancy footwork learned from somewhere else? why use my wingchun if I dont have to?

As for standing there, I dont start fights, dont fight if I dont have to. If I am in a fight its because someone brought it to me.

[apoweyn]

red5angel,


Originally posted by red5angel
Hey ap, I know what you are saying, I think mainly I am talking from a wingchun point of view. Boxing does what works for them, and JKD does whatever they feel like at the moment ;) and wingchun should do what works for it. I am not convinced that hopping around works for the art. Too wasteful. I understand what you are saying about getting tired but its a waste of energy in my opinion. Whether you have trained hard for it or not, hopping takes more energy then standing and I would be willing to bet more then even sliding.
To me simplicity is the key. Keep it simple!

well, first of all, you can't really state that it works for boxing and JKD in one breath having said that you'd easily defeat them once they've 'worn themselves out' in the previous breath.

if your point is that this mode of footwork doesn't work for wing chun, that's fair enough. i don't know enough about wing chun to argue that point (even if i were inclined). but if your point is that the maneuver is inherently flawed, then i'm going to argue that point. and when you say that a guy is going to exhaust himself using this footwork, then you're stating that it's inherently flawed. and that's not so, in my opinion.

i'm not convinced, anyway, that it does take more energy. does it take more time and energy to break into a sprint from a full stop or from a light jog? to my mind, the initiation is faster from the light jog. and trust me when i tell you that the boxing shuffle is considerably less arduous than a light jog.

in any event, theories vary. practice varies. but i do have to take exception to silly notions like a trained fighter wearing himself out 'hopping around.' it's oversimplified to the point of uselessness.

not that this is the first time we've had this sort of conversation. :)


stuart b.

[vingtsunstudent]

''VTS, do me a favor and read my post again. You missed the point completely. Jumping around might work for some, but not wingchun ''
well actually from the experience i have been told through my sifu,
who did actually fight many times in challenges matches(let alone what he learnt from wong) & from experiences i too have had is to not stand around.
if your footwork is even only average it is quite easy to stay mobile, put yourself in good positions to win fights & at the same time believe it or not still adhere to wing chun.
if you have excellent footwork then it is even easier.
red with all this rooting & attention to precise detail you are starting to miss some of the most basic things by over doing it on what you think is technical perfection.
do you really think standing in a fixed position waiting for a trained fighter(do you always assume he is better or worse, is he trained or untrained) who knows how to enter or bridge the gap is the best option or do you think that you are the only lineage or style that knows how to do that as well.
it does not take much effort at all to coninuously keep moving to make the angles harder for your opponent whilst at the same time finding the best line of attack for yourself. of coarse there are exception to this but you really are limiting yourself.
like i said go get in some fights & when you want the real answers you can always just ask, til' then i think most on here would appreciate if you would stop being some sort of know it all & telling us what you think is right even though you have not really even test it.
vts

[red5angel]

AP - ;) you and I disagree! :eek: Seriously though I think I can however state that it does work for boxing but I would 'easily' defeat them when they tired themselves out! How easily is a matter of practitioners levels, not really the techniques being used. I tgoes along thelines of if you do that I will do this..... I meant more specifically wingchun but in any case if someone were hopping but didnt engage (why they would do this I dont know) then I could wait it out. the light footwork works well for boxing, we see it at every boxing match, just not for wingchun, unless of course your wingchun was mixed with boxing.


VTS My first and foremost reason for posting is for conversation and debate. you said :

"do you really think standing in a fixed position waiting for a trained fighter"

The idea of standing there in a fight is ludicrous and was inferred from my post not implied by me. Like I said to Apoweyn, if someone is jumping around with thier fancy footwork, then I will let them. I am alway strying to close the gap but I am also not going to chase you very far. If I have to you dont want to fight me. Of course I am not going to stand there! Who would?! But with a good root and solid footwork, I dont need to hop around. JKD might feel they need to, sloppy chop saki wingchun might think it has to as well but I do not. why? rooting and precision, sensitivity, all the things wingchun is based on.

[vingtsunstudent]

''If I have to you dont want to fight me''
is this what you think or what you know?
how many fights have you used wing chun in?
i will now leave you alone as i was stupid enough to forget that you only seem to know theory & only basically at that.
vts

[red5angel]

Who is to say I am not working out all this theory at practice VTS?
It's common sense, if you are running from me then you must not want to fight. If you are hopping around dazzling me with your footwork and not engaging I am not chasing you. I fyou are coming at me I will move in. Come on VTS, this isnt all that complicated, stop interpreting what I am saying to make me look dumb and read it, then THINK about it.

[mun hung]

Why must there be just one approach to fighting?

IMHO - it really depends on the person you are fighting.

Don't put concrete limitations on your kung fu by thinking one cookie cutter solution will work for all.

[red5angel]

Mun hung, you are right, and there isnt, but with wingchun was designed to fight in a certain way. Start mixing it or getting off the path and you are not using wingchun any longer. for example, like I have stated before, the bouncy stance works really well for boxing, but it doesnt for wingchun, wingchun isnt about jumping and hopping, its not efficient.

[dbulmer]

Red5A,
I understand what you are getting at but in general you assume that the boxer won't hit you - chances are he will and you need to move - that doesn't imply you use needless energy but you have to move. (BTW I don't think you disagree on this ) If your opponent is bigger and stronger it's a must as you'll need to use angles to deflect/strike.

Your earlier posts suggested you prefer to remain static with little movement (BTW people cannot always read the intent behind a posting - as such some of the replies you are getting seem jusvery reasonable) - in some circumstances this may be ok but against skilled fighters it isn't a practical option - against a grappler I think it'd be probably suicidal (any thoughts anerlich on BJJ here?)

For me where movement is essential is that if the fighter disengages I'd much rather run away than stay stilll as I think it's the safest option long term! Fight or Flight - flight is usually the most efficient option well at least for me :)

[red5angel]

Dbulmer- "I understand what you are getting at but in general you assume that the boxer won't hit you - chances are he will and you need to move - that doesn't imply you use needless energy but you have to move. (BTW I don't think you disagree on this ) If your opponent is bigger and stronger it's a must as you'll need to use angles to deflect/strike"

Actually I would assume the guy is trying to hit me! I do agree that you need to move, however I dont think hopping around helps any, you cant keep your root that way so I guess we would agree on that ;)
As for disengaging, for me it would depend, if he is just hopping around, in and out, I would stick to him, if he was trying to get away, I say let him go!

[byond]

hi guys,

there are several differant methods for footwork in the wing chun system. there is imo,the older method ""witch" is common to yks/sn , klps, and leung sheung system. this is with the extremly small framed ygkym. there is a medium frame ygkym used by many of yip man students that offers lighter footwork but still trains the elastic around the knees feeling. than there is the higher stance that stresses mobile footwork and positioning.
i dont believe one is superior to the other. it depends on what else your system teaches...everything has to support the use of everything else, imo. each type of footwork/stance have unique attributes that they develope
interesting side note....the wc guys that actualy fought with there wing chun...tend to stress the fast footwork over trying to be a tree...as well as using the 50/50 weight distribution vs. the more traditional 0/100......could it be that experiance is there sifu?

[red5angel]

byond - "the wc guys that actualy fought with there wing chun...tend to stress the fast footwork over trying to be a tree...as well as using the 50/50 weight distribution vs. the more traditional 0/100......could it be that experiance is there sifu?"

Who would you be talking about? quite a few of WC people fought in thier day.......

[byond]

hi red5,

o.k here are 3 examples....leung jan(still used small frame ygkym but stressed 50/50 after 300 some fights), wsl, and ho kam ming.

[red5angel]

how about a list of guys who fought back weighted?

[byond]

___why ? this is sort of a waste of time and energy...its been discussed for years and years and years....back in the 70's im sure this was discussed...lol..its a matter of what works for you as an individual.... that wasnt a "list" any way , that was 3 examples.....if you want 3 examples to round out everything here you go...
leung sheung, lok yiu to my knowledge used the 0/100 and fought ....leung ting teachs the 0/100 so i assume boztepi sifu uses it, and is very well known for his fighting prowes.

[red5angel]

Fighting prowess maybe, but not wingchun skill.......

Youre right it is a waste of time but if you want to state examples of one you should be willing to acknowledge the other. The point is that most of them fought. Ultimatley they could be successful, but who knows what allowed them to be? I have seen 2 of Boztepes schools, and Boztepe himself at two seminars, its not wingchun he is doing so we might as well put him in the category of JKD.......

[byond]

well..."fighting prowes maybe, but not wing chun skill">>>
that is your opinion......i dont have an opinion yet....i have not met him...

i did acknowledge the other's didnt i? just to make you happy cause you asked so nicely......lol........it wasnt a matter, to me, of acknowledging or not acknowledging anyone.....it was about my main points in my post...
1) there are differant wc methods of footwork
2) what is best, is what is best for the individual based on there physical makeup and natural attributes
3) a whole system has to back up the footwork and vice versa


4) there are alot of wc fighters who have changed from the older method of 0/100...to the 50/50.....after years of combat experiance...the thing is these guys are not just wc fighters they are the best our families have had to offer in terms of "fighter"......

as the late great WSL said..."you use the wc system, dont let the wc system use you"

and your belief that boztepi sifu is doing jkd instead of wt is a bold statement.....

[red5angel]

As for Boztepe, well he can call it what he wants, I think he has gone the way of Bruce Lee personally.

As for different stances in wingchun, I have stated how I feel aboutall the "different" ways of doing things, its not always alright. If I cant be a part of "one big happy wingchun family" because I sometimes dont play well with others, thats ok with me. If I see something that doesnt work or isnt wingchun but is called such, well, I will call it as I see it. Good wingchun is what I am interested in.......

[anerlich]

against a grappler I think it'd be probably suicidal (any thoughts anerlich on BJJ here?)

There are many ways to take a person down, and realistically modern BJJ has borrowed many of these from wrestling, judo, etc.

Against the single or double leg shoot, which most people who discuss so-called "wing chun counter-grappling" seem to concentrate on almost exclusively, ignoring such viable and useful options as clinch takedowns, go-behinds, throws, and more, with and without strikes to set them up, you would, if you wanted to stay on your feet, want be able to step off-line and out of the way VERY quickly.

Even then, I'd want my sprawl and crossface in case my step wasn't fast enough (which IMO it won't be if all I do is stance training and no footwork practice). Even if you managed to KO the guy with a single shot (which is all you have time for) on the way in, his momentum may still knock you down if you don't move, after which his mates may well dispense to you the same justice they would to the proverbial grappler "stupid" enough to go to the gound by choice in a multiopponent situation. Which, as a grappler you don't have to anyway - the kneeride position (similar to the "dropknee" stance in Bil Jee) allows you to ground and pound the guy and soccerball kick his head after you've taken him down and still let you stand and run (or hop, though this only happens in Red's imagination) if the cavalry shows up.

I've met guys that can throw a jab/cross and then shoot a double leg as fast as your average WC student can throw 3 chain punches. It's a scary thing to behold.

Redboy's going well here, he's managed to diss all JKD practitioners (apparently they all "hop around" and exhaust themselves - booolsheeiiit! at least do some research before you spout uninformed opinion as fact), Emin Boztepe (who according to Red is "just" another JKD exponent :rolleyes: ), and Bruce Lee.

Who would you listen to? Emin or Redboy?

[vingtsunstudent]

''Who is to say I am not working out all this theory at practice VTS?''
i'd say that not only have you not fought but neither have your teachers, you are living in your perfect little wing chun delusion & i'm glad that makes you happy.
my question is will you be man enough to come on here once you've learnt a few lessons the hard way and share your truths then?
i too for the first few years of my training thought everything would always go down perfectly if i just trained hard & stuck to perfect wing chun but after being bitten, kicked, punched, headbutted & also being injured a few times i realised that there are many variables to consider, just because i have never lost a fight doesn't mean that i'm a good fighter it just means i've been lucky.
we all know that you think you know but i'm afraid reality may bite you pretty hard some day soon.
besides all that do you not understand that people here are sick of being told what is right and wrong by a beginner or is it really that hard for you to accept.
YOU ARE A BEGINNER & nothing more.
if you wish to ask questions, talk wing chun or give us your thoughts then that is fine just stop telling us that you are right & we are wrong all the time, it only serves to make you and your teachers look like fuking idiots.
vts

[anerlich]

If I see something that doesnt work or isnt wingchun but is called such, well, I will call it as I see it.

Yes, but you need to be able to take criticism as well as dish it out. If you expect people to respect your opinion you need to respect theirs.

If I see you spouting crap, which IMO is not all that infrequently, I will follow your example and call it as I see it. I too feel the WC world has an obligation not to be misled by the blatherings of the overconfident and uninformed, such as, too often IMO, yourself.

[TjD]

did it ever occur to you that people here might be talking about thinks you havent been taught yet with your 8 months of wing chun?

[dbulmer]

Anerlich,
Ta mate! You confirmed what I was thinking.

R5A,

Emin Boztepe is a skilled WC guy - what makes you say that he doesn't do WC? Examples? I think you are way out of order on that score. :eek:

[Rill]

for example, like I have stated before, the bouncy stance works really well for boxing, but it doesnt for wingchun, wingchun isnt about jumping and hopping, its not efficient.
The kangaroo is a formidable fighter, utilising both upper and lower limbs simultaneously when attacking. Kangaroos move down the centreline with their strikes, creating powerful attacks that use a supportive structure to generate that power. Kangaroos can move at great speeds along the ground, very efficiently, by hopping. What great examples of Wing Chun fighters they are. Yet they hop, and don't get tired of doing it. If you ever make it down to visit, we shall go provoke some kangaroos so you can test your skills against one, and see if their hopping is their downfall.

I think Steve Irwin would be proud of me.


If I cant be a part of "one big happy wingchun family" because I sometimes dont play well with others, thats ok with me.
You know, you've posted this before, and I can't help but laugh at the fact that despite all the usual talk of discrepancies between lineages, there are so many people on this forum from so many different backgrounds that are all telling you you're wrong about a good many things. No-one cares that you like to hack on other lineages, simply because we've all seen it before. Heck, we've probably all done it before. Some of us still do it ;). Tell people why they're wrong, don't just tell them they're wrong.


Most WC people take a middle of the road approach.
Insert standard "you don't know jack about Australian WC exponents" here.

What I'd really like to see is some in-depth explanations of why certain hopping movements are inefficient, rather than just a 'we all know this' statement, because I'd like to see if you know what you're talking about rather than just repeating what your instructor has said to you. Why is WC footwork formidable? Why does a good stance help this? Why does only training the stance create such good footwork, and if it does, why do we move in Chum Kiu and when using the Mook? What specifically about 'hopping' is inefficient? What does sensitivity have to do with your footwork?
Also, contruct your argument logically, don't make reference to things you know nothing about such as the habits of boxers and jdk'ers and Emin Boztepe (and Australians), and please.. I beg of you.. most of all, grammar and spell check before you post.

[red5angel]

VTS - I have never lost a fight either ;) (sounds pretty good on the internet doesnt it? I'm impressed!)

TjD - havent we already been through this? Maybe you should go back and read some of the other exchanges we have had? 8 months now learning the real deal, before that wasted time learning wannabe wingchun. The last 8 months has been worth more then 40 years of the stuff I was learning before.

Rill - Not hacking on lineages, hacking on bad wingchun.

"there are so many people on this forum from so many different backgrounds that are all telling you you're wrong about a good many things"

this could be looked at in two ways Rill, either I am really wrong here and every internet sifu out there is right (probably not) or maybe I am on to something here? Maybe if I say a lot of people are studying wingchun that could be 1000 times better, and then most of them disagree with me............

Or maybe I should throw in some BJJ and JKD and call it well rounded?

[Rill]

Please re-read the second last paragraph of my post.

Nobody believe the world was round until they sailed it, perhaps you could try proving some of your comments with an in-depth explanation also.

[red5angel]

Rill, I read all of your paragraphs, the one to which you speak is irrelevant as you have no basis to make assumptions. If you want to encourage one to build arguments logically and based on experience and fact I suggest you do the same, deal? As for being in depth, I open up the discussion with comments I see a sinformative enough to start a conversation. If you dont get it, ask for clarification, or discuss where you differ in opinion

[vingtsunstudent]

''VTS - I have never lost a fight either (sounds pretty good on the internet doesnt it? I'm impressed!)''
the point is i have never been afraid to talk of the injuries i have sustained or the mistakes i made whilst fighting for real, not just dreaming about it whilst playing handsies at class, any ego i had was smacked out of me many years ago, i also admit i am not the hair on some fighters rrrrsssss's that i have witnessed.
instead all i hear from you is how you & your training is all that & if the rest of us practiced as hard & in the real way like you we all could become some super wing chun freaks.
like i said beginner boy, go & find the real truth, then we'll see if you come back here continuing to carry on like such a fuking know it all.
you know **** and any fool can see it except the one you see in the mirror.
vts

[red5angel]

VTS - you have got a lot of class my friend! I have always stated and will continue to stand by the stuff I am learning. I have been in a few fights, one a few lost a few, it happens to everyone even you I am sure. Regardless, I have plenty to compare ot what I am learning and so my confidence is not empty. But thanks for trying to help.
Just so I can make things as clear as possible to you, let me explain something. My favorite subject is Emin Boztepe. I try not to mention his name here out of respect for our admins but this is applicable. Emin is a well built man, he should be he works out alot. Of course I find that odd since you shouldnt have to work out to be able to do wing chun effectively, for small people right? Could be personal choice I suppose, except that if you wanted to do his stuff successfully or competitively you would have ot be big and strong, I have seen it, from the man himself and from a few of his schools. He is probably a great fighter, good for him, he could probably even kick my butt, right now. But I am learning, wingchun, good wingchun. Fighting and wingchun should go hand in hand, but good fighting does not necessarily mean good wingchun.
Why should it matter you say? If Boztepe can fight who cares right? Except that I am studying wingchun and I know wingchun is good enough to use without having to muscle it or tear off my shirt and flex before I start, GET IT? It means I dont have to make up my own thing, or lift weights daily to compensate for huge gaping holes in my understanding and knowledge......

[yenhoi]

"Real" boxers and "real" jkd men (since you seem to call out to "true" wing chunners whaterver that might be??) do not hop around aimlessly, they dont even hop around at all.

Being light on your feet, and controlling your distance, actually, not your distance, THE distance. There is a time and place for standing still keeping your root strong, and that was centurys ago on the battlefield. When your fighting only 1 person, or even multiple people from random angles you need to be light, and connected to the ground only when you wish to recieve or give a strike or blow. Take a look at any other art red, even your own, and look at its applications in dueling. If you were fighting against a boxer or JKD man, and he was "hopping around" as you call it, and you simply refused to chase him or decided to chase him, then you are losing, he is controlling the distance, he is controlling your actions in a way that is different from the saying "your opponent dictates your response." If you are worried about your own root during combat then you again are already losing, because your boxer or jkd bunny-like friend is not worried about his root, he is worried about yours - destroying it, along with your face, and probably a few limbs.

Wingchun is great, but red5, its not the beggining of all, nor the end, it has roots deeper then Carl or Yip Man.

Wingchun, as well as boxing and JKD are not hammers that you beat your opponents with, rather they are anvils that you forge the steel of your body on. Lately I hear you saying too much, "use good wing chun" or "true wingchun" or "your not using wingchun". Unfortunatly there are not magicaly objects out there that you can pickup and learn to use to fight others with, you use your hands and feet and head and shoulders and and and.

What good does having your root connected do when you are not in contact with the opponent. If you have not closed the gap already, then your opponent is in the process of. Rarely will you see an expierenced dueler move heavily or allow his opponent to 'dance around' unchecked.

Test it, you 'waste' more 'energy' heavily rooting and stomping about, then you do if you are in constant motion. 'Economy of motion' and 'simplicity' are principles that you preach about in your art, that are also principles maintained in the very same bunny-styles you insinuated would tire themselves out hopping around. Are you saying that your principle of not wasting your precious energy is superior to the same exact principle of not wasting energy, because you stand for 20 minutes a day strenthening your tan sau, legs, chi and root? Why is your tan sau superior to mine? My hand is outstreched, moving and low, how does that make my straight punch inferior if I am rooted when it lands? Is your straight punch somehow superior because you are rooted when we are 10 feet away? How do you close the gap on a faster, more mobile opponent who is using his footwork to control THE distance, and pick the time and place he wishes to knock your centerline through the ropes? How do you stick to an opponent that doesnt want you to stick? An opponent that wont play your heavy sticky games and would rather break your shoulder?


Rather long-winded for me, but being a JKD man, you have touched a nerve when it comes to discussing footwork, because when you are fighting my friend, 1 on 1, footwork is the name of the game.

[red5angel]

Yenhoi - good stuff. Here is my view. Boxers have well co-ordinated footwork and it works well for what they are doing. As for JKD, I understand it is your style but I have yet to see anything real come from it. IT may have just been my experience mind you, you could be very good at what you do, but in a time when people seem to lack any discipline anyway, an art that teaches a "Do what you want" buffet style of martial art tends to draw a lot of slackers ;) Seriously, I am sure there are plenty of good JKD guys out there but what exactly is JKD? PM me if you want to get into a discussion on JKD specifically since it wil be wasted here.
As for conservation of energy, stomping is not what I am talking about and jumping around or light feet, is not or ever will be more conservative then relaxed stable footwork. If you want to try something, try going low, rooting frimly and standing there. Then try light footwork, maybe some light drilling for 10 minutes or something, which one builds up a faster sweat? Granted some of our footwork makes us sweat as well but in general the fighting application type stuff is much more conservative, by nature then hopping around.
I agree wingchun is not the end all to be all, for some, other arts work quite well.

"What good does having your root connected do when you are not in contact with the opponent. If you have not closed the gap already, then your opponent is in the process of. Rarely will you see an expierenced dueler move heavily or allow his opponent to 'dance around' unchecked"


You should always be rooted, it shouldnt matter, even when you are closing the gap. Your root may not be as deep. I have seen Ken chung and Carl both sink into a fighting stance as they approach someone. I look at it like, when I am just walking the streets, I am conscious of my root, it is shallow but there, if I fight I sink and sink my root deeper.

As for sticking, well there are always better fighters, I train to stick to my opponent, if I cant, I need to train smarter and probably more, but in general discussing it doesnt work because it turns into a what if type argument.

check your PM Yenhoi

[black and blue]

Regarding your earlier post... be careful, mate.

All this talk of Emin Bozepe... sooner or later someone who trains with the man is going to inform him of this bad mouthing and he'll come, or send a representative to your club to put you straight about his Wing Chun.

The guy does look huge, does seem very muscular - and I agree Wing Chun shouldn't need this... but I wouldn't be the man to tell Mr Bozepe he was 'going the way of Bruce Lee' and practising something more like JKD than Wing Chun.

Before long this kind of talk will land you in trouble. This is the reason Admin is so against it... you'll rub someone the wrong way and they'll head to where you train to sort it out.

This will be bad for you, your Sifu, and everyone concerned.

Critiquing is one thing, and having a friendly stab at someone is something we've all done (you get enough of it, and it isn't always so friendly in your case)... but your posts seem to make out Emin is a complete idiot for calling his art Wing Chun.

Steady, friend.

That said, I babbled about Austin Goh earlier and his yellow robes still make me smile. I'm a two-faced monkey and there's no denying it.

:)

But as Homer Simpson once said, as the US President (a monkey) coshed an adviser in the White House: "Hee Hee... that's what happens when you don't heed the monkey!"

[red5angel]

I agree Band B thats why I rarely talk about it. I think there are several possible outcomes however, one, he decides he wants to come get me himself, in which case I probably get hurt, I can take it though, I still have to stand by what I believe. Two, he sends someone out, in which case I may or may not get hurt. Three, like most people that high up in an organization he blows it off as just another ******* internet voice who thinks he knows it all.

I figure it this way, you can go goon on someone on the internet but what is that going to accomplish but get you a lawsuit? The truth won't necessarily come out. I saw him beat Cheung in that video going around but didnt see much WC, so what? He beats me up to prove something to himself, well I can understand that but then why would he need to do that? I could just get on the internet and claim to have beat him. Thats why most people just dont care and there are so many people willing to badmouth each other without worrying about consequences. For most its not worth pursuing.

I checked out Gohs website by the way, it seem slike alot of the other stuff out there ;)

[yuanfen]

Red5Angel sez:
Here is my view. Boxers have well co-ordinated footwork and it works well for what they are doing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am sure that Angelo Dundee, Charlie Goldman, Teddy Atlas,
Gainsford, Cus DAmato, Emmanuel Seward, Beto Martinez
and a host of other trainers are glad wherever they are
that they get a nod of approval from red5angel who is ready to write the classic on comparative footwork in sports and the martial arts! Bravo!

[red5angel]

Blackand Blue - I checked out that video fo Emin ambushing W. Cheung this morning, I dont see ANY wingchun from either of them. Emins stuff is all wrestling, although I am sure Anerlich would approve ;), they sort of squirm around on the floor for a while, I think Emin connects with all of two weak punches. now I understand why he weight lifts all the time!

[black and blue]

Hey - I'm not saying I think Emin's Wing Chun is good or bad, I was just saying if you make out he's a muppet someone, sooner or later, is going to slap your face.

Whether he's good or bad... he's BAD. He'd kick my butt in a flash, I'm sure. :)

[red5angel]

LOL! I dont doubt that at the moment he could probably mop the floor with me! But I am learning........

As for slapping my face, well I am in a MARTIAL art, and as much as I try to avoid fighting whenever possible, if it happens, its part of what I am training for!

[Slo Mo]

Hey Red5,

Could you post were you found the Emin vs Chun video?

thanks

[red5angel]

Slomo, its at Mcdojo.com....

Let me know if you spot some wingchun in there somewhere.....

[{i^(]

i get what you're saying. it's basic doctrine for WC, but you've got to take into account others' reactions to it, vis. their style.

if you pursue this 'stand & deliver' approach, you'll look like rocky marciano pretty fast- IF you're lucky & good. which brings to mind: are you talking fights or tournaments? way different beasts.

I think anerlich was saying you need to get into fights. i'm with him part way on this. i don't think people need to fight using WC to be able to talk intelligently on WC, but i note carefully if they have or not. your posts do not seem to have the ring of truth/experience.

FWIW, boxers do what they do to tire out the opponent, not themselves. seems like bagua types could do that too. frinstance: sugar ray leonard.

i've been reading you for awhile, public record, natch. i've gotta ask: are you using forums for a training journal? do you keep one? do you figure it out B4 you post, or just post your notes/essays?

[anerlich]

although I am sure Anerlich would approve

This was arguably the nadir of modern Wing Chun history. Why would I approve? Besides which it had naff all to do with decent wrestling, not that you would have a clue, redboy.

It would have been interesting to see how Emin's "counter-grappling" would have gone against the Gracies when he and they had their mouthboxing war a few years ago.


I think anerlich was saying you need to get into fights

I'm not really suggesting that, though anything that reduces red's volume and frequency of posting on here until he has some insights worthy of serious consideration would be welcome.

But fighting in the street is for losers. The consequences, "win" or lose can have a huge negative impact on your life.

What I'm suggesting is that getting lectured to at great, tedious and repetitive length by someone, who in the very short time he has been training couldn't possibly have any real experience in most of the subjects on which he pontificates, is rightly resulting in the derision which it has attracted.

However, some sort of practice fighting with contact involved is essential to develop physical and mental toughness. And that WC theory works, but it doesn't work 100 percent of the time. And, if you're not a stylistic or lineage snob, that other people's approaches can often be very effective even if they don't sound as slick or well thought out as those your Sifu talked about at the end of yesterday's class.

[byond]

anerlich:D lineage snob ...:D ..thats a good way of putting it....there are people all over the world doing the huttle discussing how the are the only real path, who truly believe that they have had the luck of finding the only real or true wing chun to ever have existed in the entire human culture ever!!!......thats some **** good luck...
i can see it now.....the new generation student will look down on our anscestors....thinking that the old way has no merit ....tradition has no value....age does not bistow wisdom...youth and inexperiance is the only real path..but if you give me 25 bucks a week i will let you join the cool gang.....and than....you will be somebody....and thats not a bad thing....thats a good thing

[{i^(]

pardon me, anerlich. i think i might have meant VTS with that 'get into fights' remark.

but i'm still part-way with you! ;-)

I mentioned before, i'm collecting it all for an AI project. i want to see if a computer can make sense of him. no dice so far. it just spews out lectures and won't explain itself....

[reneritchie]

My experience with Bagua is that they finish people frighteningly fast. One famous Bagua fighter in HK (Wang) would simply break his opponent's arm(s) on contact and win near-instantly. Others are excellent at flanking to the extent they take your back, almost like a very good wrestler, and then break something, drop you, or break something while dropping you...

... hey, sounds like some good WCK folks too...

RR

[hunt1]

RILL-gratz you are the first person I have seen that noticed WC was not from the snake and crane but the kangeroo:D About 6 years age I saw a video on roos and as they fought I thought,wow they use WC:)


RED I hope to meet you in a few years when you might know some WC and see what you think of these posts you are making now.

[vingtsunstudent]

i would hardly say that getting in to fights is for losers.
john will himself from what i know travelled extensively and fought. forgive me if i'm wrong but i'm sure he has mention in the past about the streets of india, thailand and possibly burma.
there are still many ways to get into fights without being the one who goes looking for it. yes be it right or wrong. i myself gained most through security where the option of not fighting against one or several people at once is not in your hands.
i never once went to work looking for a fight & never even when in a bad mood for whatever reason gone out to look for a fight just to vent some frustration.
vts

[Redd]

Originally posted by hunt1
RED I hope to meet you in a few years when you might know some WC and see what you think of these posts you are making now.

And what will he think of them after he grows up.

[anerlich]

vts,

I'm not suggesting that because someone has ended up defending themselves in a situation thay didn't start that that makes them a loser, or stupid or something. Particularly in security work which is a thankless job. My hats off to anyone who ended up in a situation and prevailed. Such situations are the focus of my training and it would be hypocritcal of me to suggest such an approach was bad.

I'm suggesting that going looking for fights in the streets with strangers as a form of training or sport is neither sensible or honourable and I didn't want to be misquoted saying that I encouraged it.

I agree JBW has a fascinating background, but I don't think he ever sought fights, they were thrust upon him.

By the way, er, "Cyclops", no hard feelings about the misquote, no harm done.

[vingtsunstudent]

sorry bud, i didn't mean my post to sound that way either. writing isn't one of my stronger points.
i do constantly feel on here that some hide there fears by resorting to the old 'but you should never have to fight' or 'as a martil artist' blah blah blah.
however tragic it may seem to some, you will just never know until it's all put on the line.
there is so much more to this that finding where to start these discussions that bridge the gap between training and actually having to fight is hard, sure there are general things but i'm talking about the transference from wing chun training specifically.
vts

[[Censored]]

But as Homer Simpson once said, as the US President (a monkey) coshed an adviser in the White House: "Hee Hee... that's what happens when you don't heed the monkey!"

No, no, no! "That's what you get for not hailing to the chimp". :rolleyes: ;)

[black and blue]

Trust me... Homer was modeled on the man I'm destined to become!

:D

[yuanfen]

But -the Apu character is underdevloped. A touch of Ivy League racism possibly?.

The real APU-or atleast Apu's uncle.

[red5angel]

{i^( - "i've been reading you for awhile, public record, natch. i've gotta ask: are you using forums for a training journal? do you keep one? do you figure it out B4 you post, or just post your notes/essays?"

I have two "diaries" or logs that I keep. One is just a strict trianing log, for things like drills, times or reps, etc.... The other is one for information, questions, answers etc....

Hunt1 - "RED I hope to meet you in a few years when you might know some WC and see what you think of these posts you are making now."

Hunt1, my hope is to be able to meet a few members over the course of the next few years. I have met one or two and have definite plnas to meet a few others in the next 6 months or so. So far so good ;)

[dbulmer]

YuanFen,
Apu - Apu?

Nope, the real hero of the Simpsons is the guy who sells the comic magazines to Bart - now yon dude is real cool ! When R5A posts, this is the character he could be if he works to his true potential.

Anyway, Groening recently revealed that Homer was based on a Canadian - not surprising really as everyone knows how cool Canadians are ( a contradiction in terms ?) and it's kind of re-assuring to know that the character I most resemble is not a Yank. :)

[{i^(]

not meaning to hijack anything here, but adding:

civil war soldiers called being in battle for the first time "seeing the elephant", and this was directly related to that old story about the blind men. nothing theoretical, just their observation of fact.

(BTW: this brings to mind MY idea of the most practical/vicious 'marshull ottist': a knife-wielding yankee swab/marine, circa 1840's, from the frontier areas..not 'trained', just vicious...comparisons from other lands?)

all of our drills and theories are just blind men groping. all of the words of persons who've seen it are the merest of echoes- but valuable for that. i have not personally "seen the elephant" WITH my WC, but only without it. so i don't talk about it too much in relation to WC. it just isn't applicable.

i will say that attacks come in different varieties: ambush, mano y mano, sucker punches, law enforcement, etc. and that sometimes YOU have to attack first. nobody seems to attack if they don't feel they can take you down, maybe with a knife, etc. i'll also say that i'm not looking to try it out on j. random psycho. streets are not good test grounds.

the most useful WC 'theory', to me, is face the assault, choose your target (er, centerline) and attack. sounds nuts & too simplistic, but it really is the only way- including on battlefields. there's others, yes, but it boils down to this. 'chi' and all the rest can go hang- it's just window-dressing.

oh. 'cyclops'. well, whatever you want to call me...'face?' the real name is: 'curleybracketeyehatbracket'

[{i^(]

i totally admit i was speaking in "safe" generalities there.

[Rill]

I thought [ was a bracket, { a brace, and ( a parenthese?

I'm allowed to be anal about it, I code :)

[urban tea]

redangel,

I don't care what you say about boxers but if you haven't sparred against them, you would get laid out FLAT.

You can sit there and analyze their stance or stucture but until you have actualy free fighting experience (not just chi sau) you will get wasted in any fight. Even a TKD guy, mark my words.

How old are you anyways? Just wondering because I think you said you had a wife.

[{i^(]

So it official. I can't spell my own name. ******all....

[{i^(]

I had heard from different sources (not saint Bruce) that fencing (foil, epee, sabre, french and spanish styles) had footwork both similar and complementary to that of WC. so i took out a book from the library, and i must say i'm nonplussed.

i'm thinking, not as a replacement, certainly, but complementary, possibly. other options/actions. but i don't know. the lunge is right out, but thats really because its geared for those weapons.

anyway, i've no experience with these arts, so i'm curious to hear thoughts on it. is it just methodology? or something deeper? for that matter, how do 'hakka' arts like SPM and so. dragon for example, compare?

I know thats a wide open question. maybe another thread for it?

[{i^(]

I had heard from different sources (not saint Bruce) that fencing (foil, epee, sabre, french and spanish styles) had footwork both similar and complementary to that of WC. so i took out a book from the library, and i must say i'm nonplussed.

i'm thinking, not as a replacement, certainly, but complementary, possibly. other options/actions, probably because of the contrived playing field of fencing- but this means that WC has more to offer IT & not the other way round. but i don't know re WC. the lunge is right out, but thats really because its geared for those weapons. pole? ehhhh....

anyway, i've no experience with these arts (& its only a book), so i'm curious to hear thoughts on it. is it just methodology? or something deeper? for that matter, how do 'hakka' arts like SPM and so. dragon for example, compare? i've not dealt with those.

I know thats a wide open question. maybe another thread for it? just trying some different/outside viewpoints here.

[yenhoi]

The footwork is not all that is complementary or similar. The sword (or stick) movements can also be applied by hands vs hands, it is interesting to compare what a fencer does when swords colide, and what a wing chun man does when hands collide.

I will also mention that Bruce Lee wrote about this, but that Kali folks have been doing this forever. Also, in one of the Bruce Lee books, like volume 3, there is an index of fencing manuals, a few I have looked into, and can probably post thier titles when I get home, several "modern" manuals speak of transposing the weapon skills to empty hand skills.

[red5angel]

Urban Tea, while I agree that sparring with someone of another style gives you an advantage in fighting them, if your training doesnt allow you to fight against another person without first sparring with them, then there is something wrong.

[{i^(]

I'll hafta look into that. More sensitivity is ALWAYS kewl.