Wing Chun vs Southern Mantis - comparing styles

[TaoBoy]

Firstly, this is not a troll post. Please don't troll here!

And, I am not interested in hearing why one style is better than the other. Or why one school of thought is superior.

Simply, I am interested in your experience between the styles. If you are a WC exponent and have touched hands with a SPM student (or vice-versa) I would like to hear your thoughts. If you study neither but have witnessed something worth contributing, please do.

Thanks, TB.

[yuanfen]

What family of SPM are you from? Australia?Lum Sum or some other?
I would think that SPM hands like Wing chun would vary depending in the training and skill of the practioner.

[TaoBoy]

Of course, level of skill comes into it. As I said, just interested in what ppl have seen/heard/felt.

I am located in Melb, Aust. SPM line decendent from Chow Gar.

[yuanfen]

A couple of folks on this list, Jim Roselando and phil Redmond I believe have been exposed to Southern Mantis and may have
some comments. I dont think really top flight spm instruction is
easily available. From what i "know" I respect first class jook lum
of the Gin Foon Mark variety. If I didnt have exposure to top quality Wing Chun- a good chance I would have made more detailed inquiry into jook lum. Being southern hands both have
some things in common. Neither are sports.

[Jim Roselando]

Tow Boy,


I have had some pretty good exposure to SPM. That includes Jook Lum, Chu Gar and Chow Gar. The two arts (Wing Chun and SPM) have a lot in common but express their concepts thru different frames/tactics. Both are very aggressive styles that box according to centerline theory. Both have (or should have) extensive sticking bridge training. Both should be soft and fluid but Mantis tends to be a bit harder. Both should be very compact but both seem to be getting a bit larger framed as time goes on.

Now! For some pro's and con's!

The average SPM guy tends to have a stronger root/body but advanced WC (or should I say good WC) also have a solid root.

The average WC guy usually has a faster method of attacking since they are practicing a bit softer but I have seen some Mantis that was just as fast, if not faster, than any Kung Fu I have seen.

Most Mantis people are extremely EXTREMELY secretive with their skills while most WC people tend to think WC is the end all art which is also bad.

I think in the end it all depends on how good the teacher/pupil is and how hard the pupil trains/absorbs the art. Both are superb for street fighting!


Regards,

[Jim Roselando]

Forgive me Tao Boy (not Tow Boy)!

I did not read your name properly!

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Jim- good answers to Tao Boy. Both are great arts. Weighed against the mantis secrecy is the fact that really top flight jook lum folks are secretive with most(not all) of their students as well.
Even though wing chunners are a more gabby lot -as a southern art wing chun has its penchant for secrecy as well. Ip man was not excatly gabby and consistently forthcoming.. Different people got different things from him. We are still trying to figure it all out( in spite of the internet).
SPMis less commercialized than some parts of the wing chun world. As an outsider I am more impressed with jook lum than the
other families of SPM-no offense meant to Tao Boy.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Joy,


Thanks for the comment! I have to agree with you about WC being secretive! I for one can testify to that! Ugggg Not only Yip but Koo Lo villagers a scary sometimes with being secretive. I will say that over all, proball since WC is more commercial than SPM, you have an easier time learning the art but thats not always the case. For me I also prefer Jook Lum as it is a more fluid system than Chu or Chow Gar. Atleast from what I have seen and please take no offense to that Tao Boy as it is just my preference. I also appreciate the other Mantis arts!


See ya,

[TaoBoy]

Jim Roselando & yuanfen,

Thank you for your replies. I have taken no offence to your posts. You honesty is appreciated. Your assessment of these styles in the same as my understanding.

Peace.

[yuanfen]

Thanks Tao Boy. Its not always easy to have a civil conversation on the net-within a style-let alone across styles.

[toddbringewatt]

I don't agree that SPM is harder than Wing Chun as characterized above. Read the following excerpt from an interview with 5th generation successor of the Jook Lum system, Master Gin Foon Mark. He discusses exactly the topic of this thread:

The full article can be found at: http://members.aol.com/martyeisen/mantis/Pmwebpage.htm

excerpt from the article:

The Roots of Jeet Kune Do -- Bruce Lee and the Master Mark Connection


...GFM: Beginners tend to become tense and use force against force. This may be alright in a hard-style system but not in a soft-style system, in which you are trying to become soft like water. You must begin by practicing slowly and softly, learning to turn your opponent's strength against him. It takes a great deal of practice to become soft. After reaching this stage, you can start free-style sparring, beginning slowly and later speeding up.

ME: Aren't some of your two-men forms similar to to Wing Chun sticky hands?

GFM: Yes. However, we practice softer, have more techniques and utilize small circular motions to turn the opponent's power against him. Bruce studied western fencing and remarked that some of these forms resembled fencing with the hands. Wing Chun could be called "hard arm Kung Fu" while our style is "soft arm Kung Fu".

ME: Bruce Lee believed that weight training, dummies and other special equipment were essential. Does your system have a similar view?

GFM: We had a lot of auxiliary equipment in our Kwoon when Bruce was a student. He was keen on using this equipment. I had many discussions about training devices that I had used in the temples with Bruce. Bruce wanted to become a good fighter and produce good fighters quickly. Therefore, he wanted to use weights and other equipment right away. I wasn't in a hurry to produce good fighters. In a soft style system, you must become very soft before you start to use weights. If you start to use weights when you first start, it is difficult to become soft.

ME: How long did Bruce Lee train with you?

GFM: About a month. He learned much more than the average person could in that short time, because he was in good condition and had learned similar techniques in other systems that he had studied. Besides that, he was enthusiastic, practiced a lot and had an outstanding aptitude for Kung Fu. Bruce was really impressed by my philosophy of fighting.

ME: What do you mean by that?

GFM: He agreed with nearly everything I said when we discussed fighting theory. For example, as mentioned previously, the limitation of forms, becoming like water, reacting instinctively to an attack, etc. Any good fighting system, like Praying Mantis, should have the following attacking methods: attack by combination, drawing, hand immobilization, foot immobilization; progressive indirect attack, simple direct and singular attacks. These were denoted: ABC, ABD, HIA, FIA, PIA, SDA, and SAA, respectively, later in Jeet Kune Do. Bruce liked the variety of weapons used in our style and the weapon's drills. The exercises involving an unarmed versus an armed person and two people using different weapons were his favorites.

ME: Why did Bruce Lee leave?

GFM: He was only visiting his father and had to return to California. He wanted me to come to California to instruct him and be a consultant for his films. However, Bruce was relatively unknown at that time and I didn't think that he would be able to pay my salary. I had to support my family, so I decided to stay in New York.

ME: Which do you think influenced the development of Jeet Kune Do more, Praying Mantis or Wing Chun?

GFM: I think Jeet Kune Do's philosophy is closer to Praying Mantis than to Wing Chun. Look at my free-style movements and compare them with those of a Wing Chun Sifu. Then, judge for yourself which resembles Jeet Kune Do more.

ME: What is your contribution to Jeet Kune Do?

GFM: Jeet Kune Do is not a branch of Praying Mantis. Bruce studied many other systems and modified and incorporated them into his system. However, when I see Bruce's movies or hear about his formless form, I believe he understood my lessons about changing conditions in self defense situations. Combat is alive and requires a constantly changing art and not a dead one.

[vingtsunstudent]

what a load of garbage.
it seems everybody likes to stick their hand up and say that they were responsible for bruce.
as to watching bruce and seeing that jkd more looks like it comes from SPM, all i will say is that i didn't know that SPM looked more like some sort of bounce around kickboxing.
if that is GFM,THEN UNFORTUNATELY I DON'T THINK MUCH OF WHAT HE HAS TO OFFER.

vts

[toddbringewatt]

Now I'm sorry I posted the interview.

[yuanfen]

toddbringewatt

i actually have read that article before. Master Mak himself is very soft. Of course everyone claims some influence on Lee- Jhoon
Rhee of tkd , also makes such claims. Master Mak does not speak much English...his students write those articles. I dont know how much
of what is written is really attributable to master Mak himself.
I have seen some good films of him in motion- he has very fluid and powerful hands.

[vingtsunstudent]

'Master Mak does not speak much English...his students write those articles.'
i will take that into account.
however, i still think that with only one month of practicing together there are some pretty egotistical ideas on how profound an influence they are making out he was.
as to thinking that i may just be SPM basher, about 5 years ago i had the good fortune to learn the first 4 fist forms from one of our students that had practiced the system for over 10 years before moving here.
i should also mention that i personally don't think that what bruce moved like looks much like wing chun either.
vts

[vingtsunstudent]

oh, and sorry todd.
posting the article is fine and i think it's also fine if we don't agree, it's not like either of us are likely to change everybodies outlooks, neither of us is right or wrong, just different.
vts

[toddbringewatt]

No worries, bro!

My intention in printing the excerpt from the article had nothing to do with JKD -- only Master Mark's comments on the soft nature of his Southern Praying Mantis.

I have no arguement about JKD. I don't know that we disagree about anything. Thanks for your kind words.

All the best!

Todd

[vingtsunstudent]

to easy bud
vts

[TaoBoy]

Thanks again to everyone for your thoughts.

Todd, that article was a good read. I agree with the thoughts on softness in SPM - but I cannot say SPM is softer than WC. However, my instructor does always say that the arms of a WC practitioner are 'stiffer' than those of an SPM practitioner.

Thoughts?

[yuanfen]

The arms of wing chun folks are not made witha cookie cutter.
They vary.