Kinetic energy and internal principles?

[northstar]

When practicing bagua today I came to think about that when executed at full speed, some of the techniques seem to gain considerably in power from the sheer speed that the body is moving. In exercises as the ba quantou (eight fists) and ba zhoutou (eight elbows) this was especially evident.
Of course, most of the kinetic energy would be useless without good alignment and grounding at the point of impact, but still it seemed like it was the speed that would make the technique useful. Sort of alignment supporting the velocity instead of velocity augmenting alignment, which has always seemed like the "proper" internal way.
Any thoughts on this? Is there a traditional thinking on velocity within the internal prnciples of bagua and other styles?

[shaolinboxer]

Interesting point. To get your energy to flow outward the hands move centripedaly (outward, in orbit) from the center. increasing velocity increases strength in this capacity.

[gazza99]

Centrifugal force+proper mechanics=power & speed

[Wu-Xing]

i dont think you can look at internal arts this way. for part of it yes but all of it no, so dont think its the ONLY way. you will find things that break rule and then wonder "why?"

[dnc101]

So the faster it moves, the harder it hits, exponentially.

If you don't mind an externalist opinion here, we use this principle as well. For example, in a backfist strike, the elbow comes up and the arm whips out, then the fist whips back. The critical elements are: Complete relaxation, using only the muscles required for the motion. Proper alignment. Precise targeting. And your stance settles and solidifies as the strike lands and the fist tightens. It is the compounding speed that makes this such a devasting strike. I've been knocked unconscious by a moderate back knuckle strike with a padded (gloved) fist, so I can tell you first hand that it works.

Of course, you would consider this a static strike. I'd immagine instead of 50/50 weight in your stance you would fill one leg as you strike and more naturally flow into your next move. But the principles should work the same. As a matter of curiosity, wouldn't you want the leg to fill at the instant the strike delivers? That would seem to be the most effective method, and would correlate to our stance solidifying at impact.

[Kaitain(UK)]

the weight would be shifting forwards to the front leg as the strike lands - the leg would be completely loaded as the strike follows through. For added meat there is a sinking into the front leg as the strike lands which also loads the leg effectively for whatever comes next.

The natural follow up if I'd done a right backfist (it kind arcs over the top of the elbow and lands at a downward angle, follows through towards the right hip). The consequence of the strike is that the left side of my waist is loaded and ready to go so the flow would go into a left arm strike of some sort. That's what's in the form so that's what would probably come out :) Because of the weighting and waist torque a left side attack is inevitable - possibly using the upper body recoil from the left strike to launch another low line kick.

just some ideas - I'm cheating really and just spouting the form :) but it works so nerr

[Wu-Xing]

"So the faster it moves, the harder it hits"
no, as i said before you cannot put faith in these things as they relate to IMA.one person may hit very fast and there strike will hurt, another may hit slower but their stikes will cripple you.given they both know how to strike and have egual alignment and hit the exact same place, lets also say the first striker is from a 26 year old in perfect physical condition(according to western standards) and the second is a small framed man in his 70's. what gives the second one a more powerful result? no point in saying or in discussing what , go find a competant IMA instructor and feel it for yourself. yes folks , the answer is that simple, go out and learn and stop pondering.

"I'd immagine instead of 50/50 weight in your stance you would fill one leg as you strike "

"the weight would be shifting forwards to the front leg as the strike lands - the leg would be completely loaded as the strike follows through. For added meat there is a sinking into the front leg as the strike lands which also loads the leg effectively for whatever comes next. "

we would not use a 50/50 weight but we also would not fill one leg because that would make theother empty eg. 100/0 in using a weight distribution like that you enegry can be borrowed and used against you eg. if the fron leg is 100 and the back 0 , you can be pulled forward with ease. if the back is100 and the front 0 you can fall on your @ss. loading one leg like that is single weightedness and is a mistake like double weightedness ( bare in mind these things have a few different definitions, it depends on their context).a more correct weight would be 60/40 or 70/30, as long asyou dont have one of them 100 then you should be ok.

[TaoBoxer]

While it is true that perfectly focused power is indeed the aim of internal (and external) Martial Arts, that is only 1/2 of the equation.

The way Internalists pulse people across the room is but subtley manipulating them to a point where their root is broken and they are essentially "weightless."

Take a 200 lb man who is rooted and try to push him...you get noting. Get him up on his toes and dancing around, you can send him across the room easily.

It isn'ty simply a matter of generating MORE force, it is generating more Properly Applied force.

[Wu-Xing]

Taoboxer, couldnt agree with you more , properly applied power even if significantly less then flat out power, can, to the eye seem like far more power and to the person feel like more power, because of the result it produces.

however,
What i am talking about though is a strike that causes sever internal damage does not have to be super fast.therefore the theory of mass X velocity as it pertanes to internal arts does not apply. for anyone who does not believe that , how about you dont argue on a discussion board because that will get nothing done.go find yourself a competant internal teacher and feel it for yourself.its that simple

[Kaitain(UK)]

"we would not use a 50/50 weight but we also would not fill one leg because that would make theother empty eg. 100/0 in using a weight distribution like that you enegry can be borrowed and used against you eg. if the fron leg is 100 and the back 0 , you can be pulled forward with ease. if the back is100 and the front 0 you can fall on your @ss. loading one leg like that is single weightedness and is a mistake like double weightedness ( bare in mind these things have a few different definitions, it depends on their context).a more correct weight would be 60/40 or 70/30, as long asyou dont have one of them 100 then you should be ok."

the power from the backfist comes from the rear leg - as the strike follows through I would completely load the front leg to enable me to follow up. The leg is not 100% as I'm launching the strike - but in order to step/kick it is 100%.

nb: fully-loaded means something different to 100% weighted (in my head anyway) - fully-loaded as in fully-compressed.

I also disagree that 100/0 means your energy can be borrowed - correct posture will prevent that from happening. My energy could only be borrowed if I leant forwards with the backfist. I could only be pushed if my butt was sticking out. I concede that it's a lot harder to keep strong in 8 directions when 100/0.

In your system it may be a mistake to be 100/0 - in mine it is something to work at constantly. A posture is trained at 70/30 but we then train it 100/0 to work at stepping. The idea being that the 'active' portion of the posture is anywhere between 51/49 and 99/1, but when transitioning we are 100/0 without breaking structure.

Amongst the above ramble I meant to say - you're right in what you say, but you misintepreted what I said (or meant to say) :)

[TaoBoxer]

Wu-Xing,

I teach a class for the Sig Sauer training academy in New Hampshire on Tactical First Aid. F=Mxa2 plays a big part in what I teach due to its relation to Ballistic Trauma.

In the gun-nut world, this rule is pretty much law: The faster the bullet, the deadlier the wound. It was the main reason they switched from the .30cal (7.62mm) round of the Marine Corps m-14 to the .223 (5.56mm) of the M-16, and the reason for the proliference of high-speed fully jacketed 9mm rounds. This isn't really true however.

Research on wounds tracts have shown that due to fluid dynamics (and the body is over 60% water) the formula doesn't really hold true on live bodies. I can go into all the nooks and crannies of this, but it really isn't relevent.

The point is, External Arts hit like they are trying to break bricks, and Internal arts hit more like they are slapping water. The power comes from the kinetic wave of energy travelling through the fluid medium (you).

Just an observation of course.....

[TaoBoxer]

Of course no one here is talking about the classics which say
"When you strike send the chi flowing out from Dan Tian like Mercury, then withdraw it,"

Sounds like Fluid Dynamics to me.

Bill

[Spirit Writer]

Slow and fast power are different. Hsing-I's Po-Quan in slow, but very powerful. Essential an uppercut on steroids because of where the power is coming from: the foot, the entire body.

But take a strike Bear/eagle done from an insde position without a drawback. That requires speed, not muscle.

Power=mv^2

That is erefutable. That is why a tiny little bullet will kill you, while a sofytball will just hurt.

Velocity is squared, that is where youw ant to invest. Now, for the odl man, it is all relative. He should not invest in muscle, but in proper relaxed delivery to assure the most efficient result.

Sometimes slow (Po-Quan) sometimes fast (bear/eagle).

Some times hard (yin), soemtimes (soft). Changing between the two constantly makes it appear as if either is fully obtained. I do not collapse, but I do not fight you either. Hard and soft. Fast and slow.

[Wu-Xing]

Kaitain , sorry if i misinterpreted what you were posting;

"the power from the backfist comes from the rear leg - as the strike follows through I would completely load the front leg to enable me to follow up. The leg is not 100% as I'm launching the strike - but in order to step/kick it is 100%.

no problem with that, i thought you were saying when the strike is landing you have it 100%.i agree it quickly shifts so that you can step after the strike.

nb: fully-loaded means something different to 100% weighted (in my head anyway) - fully-loaded as in fully-compressed. "

thanks for clearing it up, i agree with what you are saying.

"I also disagree that 100/0 means your energy can be borrowed - correct posture will prevent that from happening. My energy could only be borrowed if I leant forwards with the backfist. I could only be pushed if my butt was sticking out. I concede that it's a lot harder to keep strong in 8 directions when 100/0. "

its alot harder to keep strong 8 directions with that weight,kaitain, do you study bagua? i study xingyi and i know you bagua guys break alot of the rules we have in xingyi. that would explain our disagreement on this. that being said, you break them and still make em work :)

kaitain, again, sorry for the misinterpretation.

Taoboxer

"The power comes from the kinetic wave of energy travelling through the fluid medium (you). "

agreed :)

Spiritwriter

"Slow and fast power are different. Hsing-I's Po-Quan in slow, but very powerful. Essential an uppercut on steroids because of where the power is coming from: the foot, the entire body.

But take a strike Bear/eagle done from an insde position without a drawback. That requires speed, not muscle.

Power=mv^2

That is erefutable"

Pao quan be it slow or fast can hurt,alot.as for it being an uppercut,i disagree , thats meerly one expressiopn of the energy.
as for the bear/eagle strike .its not speed or muscle .take a zero inch strike , one where you hand is already touching the person, how do high level internalists cause so much pain with no speed.
Taoboxer, hope you dont mind if i quote you but you gave a great explanation of internal power ."The power comes from the kinetic wave of energy travelling through the fluid medium (you). "at a high level, which is what we all strive for.no external movement is needed for this so if i may i would like to tag on somthing to taoboxers quote.

"The power comes from the kinetic wave of energy travelling through the fluid medium (you) not from the speed of the external mass(you)."

"Power=mv^2

That is erefutable"

in IMA ,it is refutable

"Some times hard (yin)"
isnt yang hard ?

[TaoBoxer]

I don't even know where to start......


Pao Chuan is slow? Thats like saying Cars are slow. Sometimes they are.....sometimes they aren't.

Pao chuan is an uppercut? Hardly. I have never seen pao chuan performed with rising energy. It was explained to me once as a kindof mix of the jing of Earth and Wood (crossing and crushing).

For a year or so I thought I really had a handle on Hsing I, but I met Lo Deixu last week..... So I am right back where I started (sucking horribly).

As far as your F=mv2 thing...please see my earlier post. That softball will kill you much deader if it were travelling at the same speed as the .223 round.


Wu-Xing...... Quote me all you like...but be carefull....most of the time I don't have a clue what I'm talkin about..... :D

[Kaitain(UK)]

I study Yang Taiji actually :) I definitely concur that 100/0 is harder to stay strong in the 8 directions

thanks for the reply :)