Another question: "Our" reverse punch

[fa_jing]

Of course I'm not talking about the flat-fist Karate punch, I'm talking about vertical-fist punch from the hand that is ****her away from the opponent, from the forward stance, in Wing Chun. The question is, how far will you turn your waist and hips to drive this punch, without over extending yourself , compromising your structure, or shifting too much weight to the lead leg. Of course this will determine whether or not the spacing is appropriate for the punch, if it can safely reach the target.
Let's start out by considering a simple case: Your opponent is directly in front of you and the line between your toes goes directly to his center. The way I punch, I allow some twisting of the waist and hips, w/out turning my feet 'cause I want to stay rooted through the delivery. I know that sometimes with the WC footwork, I am also completing a step as I throw this, my rear foot is coming directly forward as it is following the front foot which had stepped first. Now, how far may I twist my torso? My guess is to the shoulders squared-up point, maybe an inch or two f.arther but no more.

I know that this issue can be avoided by stepping the front foot to the outside and angling the stance somewhat, so that you're not punching across your body. Kind of like the wooden man practice where you're standing to the side, but assuming the opponent has turned to face you. Is it necessary to do this to throw with the rear hand? If not, please answer the above question regarding how far we may twist the hips/torso to deliver the rear-hand punch.

Thanks in advance for your responses.
-FJ

[yuanfen]

fajing- hips etc in "ouR" "reverse" punch? Does not sound like what I do...so I must not be part of :our" punching way-I just punch- a wing chun punch-plenty of power there- or a liitle chor ma- more power-
a little step-even more power.

[EnterTheWhip]

From which direction is this reverse punch coming, fa_jing?

[fa_jing]

OK, maybe I have explained myself badly. Well, there's a first time for everything ;)

This was the key point "I'm talking about any vertical-fist punch that comes from the hand f.arther away from the opponent, from the forward stance, in WC" I'm not sure if that answers ETW's question.

Yuanfen - do you not fight ever from the front stance? That was one of my questions. If you do, is there no/very little rotation of the hips/torso when you punch? Like Bruce Lee said "you have to put your hip into it" and that's the same thing I learned from my first teacher (TWC) as well as my current sifu. Now I know my current sifu clouds things with his JKD experience, which is one of the reasons why I ask questions here. It is the same principle as Chor Ma (turning stance right??). Rotation of the torso/hips in conjunction with the stance increases the power. Now I think there are WC people who turn the feet from the heels slightly as they punch from a front stance. I prefer to leave them on the ground, other than stepping, but that's not the issue. The issue is how much you are allowed to rotate the alignment of your torso in relation to the line between your heels. TWC has a geometrical formula that covers this topic, something like the line eminating forward and backward from your navel, perpendicular to your torso, should never exceed the 45 degree angles formed by bisecting the line between your heels and its perpendicular. I'm wondering what the guidelines are from other branches of WC.

If I can get some of you to understand this question, and if I understand your answer, I feel it will clear up a certain confusion from which I am suffering, regarding the use of the rear hand in WC.

-FJ

[TjD]

i'd say you can use your waist energy as much as you want - so long as you are not off-balanced and your fist actually connects to your opponent

if he's not at the recieving end of your punch - theres no reason for you to follow through with it is there?

how far you "twist" is entirely dependant on the situation; but i'd say the most you can "twist" is to the point where you lose control of your body; or lose mobility; or some other large disadvantage that will get you owned in a fight

[fa_jing]

Thanks Tjd


BTW, according to TWC, both the rear hand punch from the forward stance while standing directly in front of the opponent, as well as the position of you and your opponent's asking hands touching, are considered violations of the aforementioned TWC principle. The asking hands is considered an acceptable violation. However, other styles of WC fight more from the forward stance so I was basically looking for guidelines from other branches.

-FJ

[EnterTheWhip]

Is the question assuming you've already made contact with the leading punch?

[TjD]

i wouldnt say we fight from the forward stance as thats how we usually fight ;) we fight however we end up! chi sau gives us the ability to handle this

something that i usually go by however, is that when a strike lands, i want as much **** power in that strike as i can get

this "reverse punch" you talk about is no different than a turning punch in many respects; the only real difference i can think of is merely the direction your facing when you start it

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Is the question assuming you've already made contact with the leading punch?

No, although that's a possibility. More than likely you have made some type of contact with the lead arm, but it doesn't have to be a punch. It could be a lop sao with the lead arm and rear punch. It could be you've tan sao'd his lead punch and your trying to hit him with your rear, but he's stepped back just enough so that he is right on the threshold of ambiguity as to whether you simply hit him from where you are (maybe slight step), or do you need to take a sizeable step towards him. So I'm trying to figure out what's the exact range of the rear hand so that I can make this determination. If I don't have to take a bigger step forward, it's better because there's less chance of me walking into HIS punch...at the same time I don't want to over extend so that I compromise my structure and be easily trapped or pulled off balance or tripped/thrown.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by TjD
this "reverse punch" you talk about is no different than a turning punch in many respects; the only real difference i can think of is merely the direction your facing when you start it

Yes, of course WC doesn't think in these terms but I thought everyone would understand the reference, which is from Karate. LOL :)

[TjD]

sorry all ive studied is WC (im lucky!); never even looked into karate

[yuanfen]

fajing said:Yuanfen - do you not fight ever from the front stance? That was one of my questions. If you do, is there no/very little rotation of the hips/torso when you punch? Like Bruce Lee said "you have to put your hip into it" and that's the same thing I learned from my first teacher (TWC) as well as my current sifu. Now I know my current sifu clouds things with his JKD experience, which is one of the reasons why I ask questions here.
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I figured as much fajing. Some do it that way. I dont- I pay no mind to BL"s advice on the hips. The structure breaks down if you emphasize the hips (or the shoulders)....however slight you will end up rechambering before flowing on to other motions.
I fight from wherever or whatever position I am at- when it begins...
hopefully with minimal telegraphing. Of course with practice you can make many things work. But I dont think that the emphasis on the hips is very efficient. If we meet I can show you...but best to follow your sifu because adjustments can result in other problems in your familiar structure.

[anerlich]

From TWC, I'm definitely doing a reverse punch, cross, whatever you want to call it, with plenty of hip torque and some weight transfer from the rear to the front foot. I will be rotating slightly on the feet, but on the balls of the feet rather than the heels.

Everything from the toe to the knuckles needs to be aligned correctly for maximum power ... you go too far when you go PAST that line and thus compromise you structure.

TWC IMHO (I do not have the wideranging experience of all styles of WC that someone like red5angel does :rolleyes: ) uses a larger structure and makes more use of shoulder and torso mobility than many of its peer styles.

I agree there are similarities between punching from the turning stance and the front stance, but the front stance IMO allows greater opportunity for weight trasnfer and thus impact power.

[S.Teebas]

Turn to redirect. Move your cohesieve mass towards opponent to aid power and affect. ( the faster you accelerate the more power you get)
If you keep turning after redirecting your wasting yourself.

Dont concern yourself with parts, insted link you whole body and move that 1 piece the way it needs to move (listen to it).

[yuanfen]

I understand what Anerlich is saying. I have always felt(without any intent of infighting) that the role of the hips and the shoulders was a demarcation point between TWC and some of the other WC. I always hesitated to point this out but anerlich gives a good analysis of it. The devil is in the details and the
relationship between toes and knees is the beginning of the tower of power. Of course red5angel knows all this already.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by yuanfen
If we meet I can show you...but best to follow your sifu because adjustments can result in other problems in your familiar structure.

Hey, that'd be nice, although no time for it now or in the near future! You have an interesting approach. Cheers.
-FJ

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by anerlich
From TWC, I'm definitely doing a reverse punch, cross, whatever you want to call it, with plenty of hip torque and some weight transfer from the rear to the front foot. I will be rotating slightly on the feet, but on the balls of the feet rather than the heels.


Yes, I exclusively use the vertical fist for head shots (except uppercuts), but I do feel that my rear hand is still the power shot and I strive to land it. Incidently, my sifu does advise stepping the lead foot out amd forward (opening the stance) for the rear hand shot if possible, although he would say that you can punch from anywhere. Funny that he and Yuanfen would come to the same conclusion with respect to that second point, hey they do have some things in common w/respect to approach!
:)

[S.Teebas]

TWC IMHO .........uses a larger structure

Hey Anerlich,

What do you mean by larger structure?

[anerlich]

Slightly wider stances, more movement and rotation of the shoulders and hips in movement, larger movements for bon sau (the elbow comes higher than the shoulder, unlike some) and other techs, more movement and wider range of movement generally.

[yuanfen]

Well put.

[S.Teebas]

the elbow comes higher than the shoulder

So you wouldn't use a low bong?

[anerlich]

No we still use a low bon against low line attacks, but the high bon, and SLT, CK, and the dummy all have high bon sau with the elbow higher than the shoulder. CK and the dummy also have low bons.

We're not the only lineage to do this, but it is a point of difference from (some) others. Simplistically:

Advantage: better protection against attacks to the head.

Disadvantage: arguably exposes the body too much, and having the arm that high can block some of your view of the opponent. Some say the arm is too weak up high, but I've never found this to be so.

BJ does not have a bon per se, but does include grun sao, the combo tan/bon. This is not done so high as the tan and bon work together.