Heads shoulders...

[Mr Punch]

Heels or toes?

Which does your style base most of its energy generation, rooting or moves on?

Does it vary much according to the direction/energy of the move?

(BTW, for anyone who doesn't know the nursery rhyme... heads and shoulders don't actually have anything to do with the thread!)

[red5angel]

Neither, atleast not at my school, we use the dantien, although we do draw energy from the legs as well.

[Mr Punch]

Hmm, thanks Red5: try using your tantien without using your legs...:p

I'm not talking about virtual kungfu: I'm talking about techniques.

You could say that to punch for example you could root on your heel and press forward onto the ball of your foot to transfer the power at the moment of impact.

Or you could blend your considerable energy generation power with the zeitgeist of the board... and talk absolute bollocks :rolleyes:

[red5angel]

hmmmmm, maybe you dont understand Mat? you asked a question and I though it was going to be a good discussion.
Virtual Kungfu? Nice, way to have an open mind there Mat, how about next time you ask a question you decide first whether you want serious discussion?

As for transfer of power, we are always on the middle of our foot, what some refer to as the bubbling well, a spot behind the ball of your foot. The power is transferred by linking your body, joint by joint and drawing taht energy up through your body from your legs. Its not mystical its biomechanical, watch a boxer.......

[Mr Punch]

Yikes! Who ****ed in your bubbling well?! :D

Heels. Toes.

Spot the connection. That's right: I was talking about feet.

Thank you for your final answer. You have reminded me of another connection, indeed to the tantien.

One more question: and I'd be grateful if you could answer it without ill-humoured presumptions of my ignorance, or lectures. Just facts will do...

Could you please explain the bubbling well a little further: surely the 'middle' of the foot doesn't actually touch the ground...?

Please, do open my mind...:D

[red5angel]

Mat, sorry if I mistook your virtual kungfu comment, it hs been one of those days.....

As for the bubbling well, it is hard for me to describe but you are correct, the middle of the foot does not touch the ground. In some people with flat feet it may but I have high arches and so mine never touches. The idea is that this maximizes the contact of your feet. I was reading a book on the subject a few days ago and you are supposed to try to make every cell of the foot touch the ground. It sounds more complicated then it is. If you stand on both feet, with them flat you can feel a pocket right behind the ball of each foot. That is the spot, like a suction cup if you press your feet down.

[Mr Punch]

Thanks for your answer.

I'll think very carefully about that before I declare it absolute pish!!:p :D

Anyone else?

[red5angel]

Sorry, my sincere apologies, like I said it has been one of those days, I need to go home and do some training, burn off some steam!

[BrentCarey]

Mat,

Well, we say that power is normally generated at the waist and rooted at the heel or ball of the foot. This is actually more of a training point than a biomechanical fact. It is very difficult to actually generate any motion/power at the waist that effect the punch (kicks are different).

The power is really generated at the shoulder, but sort of "locked in" or "backed up" by the waist. To concentrate on generating power at the waist tends to direct kinetic energy both directions - down the leg and up the spine.

As they say, for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. By directing waist energy down the leg, this supports the upper body. More accurately, it keeps the section from foot to shoulder from being a shock absorber by filling it with kinetic energy that serves to elongate this section. This backs the shoulder with energy from the waist.

Here's the rub. If the back pressure at the shoulder is greater than the energy generated by the waist, the shoulder will "give" slightly under the pressure, and the power will be distributed elsewhere in the body.

Ordinarily this power in the shoulder(s) is created by moving one arm in one direction, and the other arm in a different direction. Typically, this will involve blocking with one hand while striking with the other hand - often using the energy of the opponents attack to redirect (via the shoulders) back to the opponent in your strike.

Two good (and simple) examples:

The attacker (the other guy) punches to the defender's solar plexus, let's say with his right hand. The defender intercepts with his left hand while turning the left shoulder back and the right shoulder forward (leaning slightly to the right to avoid the strike. The defender uses the attacker's energy to help turn the defender's body while punching forward with the right hand.

In this way, the attacker's energy moves forward, does a 180 degree bend through the defender's shoulders while being boosted by the defender's energy, and returns to the attacker via the defender's punch. I think of this like a satellite "sling-shotting" around the moon.

In the other example, the energy path is not so obvious. The same attacker attacks in the same manner. The defender this time deflects the punch straight down while simultaneously striking up at the attackers chin.

The defender expends some energy to deflect the attacker's blow downward. This downward deflection is used to support the upward blow. Some of this downward energy is added to the attacker's forward energy which is redirected downward at an angle. This pulls the attacker forward and slightly downward at his right shoulder. So, with the shoulder moving in that direction, a blow to the head in the opposite direction is not lessened by a slightly backward motion at the shoulder. The head and neck must take the full attack.

Of course, all of these biomechanical concerns are boiled down to a feeling. You don't stop to make these calculations in combat. It just happens with minimal thought. This is the science behind it though.

Anyway, I have to run. I hope this was the kind of response you were looking for.


Best regards,

Brent Carey

[gazza99]

"It is very difficult to actually generate any motion/power at the waist that effect the punch (kicks are different). .....

The power is really generated at the shoulder"

If your power is really generated at the shoulder, your mechanics are seriously lacking my friend. Look into the nine joint principle, and as the classics say, "the power is rooted in the feet, directed by the waist and eminated from the fingers" Everything is connected, and the power is connected through the shoulder, but not from. I can generate extremely powerfull punches via my waist motion, I can even do a very devastating one-inch punch if I am not rooted becuase of the waist motion, Although the power is rooted in the feet, so of course that helps!

Gary

[Braden]

Mat, Red5angel -

With regards to the foot, here is what I am trying to do in my practice. The central pivot/rooting point of the foot is generally on the front half of the heel; almost as if the calf bone continues on to stick into the ground. Extending forward from this point, I try to get the feeling of a stretching and spreading and extending, like making 'dragon palms' with the feet. When the foot newly moves to a new spot, or when the weight shifts onto it (which is often preceeded by a slight slide, partly to facilitate this feeling), again keeping in mind the central pivot; the front part has the feeling of slapping down and attaching itself to the ground; generally I find two analogies/imageries usefull: that of a dragon's claw whose front talons dig into the dirt, and that of a latching lock mechanism which clicks locked/closed as the front part of the foot slaps into it.

I am no good at it though.

[Braden]

BrentCarey and Gary -

I think in these discussions we have to respect how different people do things. That said, in my brief experience, I've been able to play with power that originates from deeper than the shoulder. BrentCarey, you might want to try simply grabbing something (like those weighted/elastic cables you can pull for exercises) and pull it with your shoulder; then relax and sink your shoulder, extend your scapulae, and spread your lat and try to move the cable with the extension/retraction of your upper lat. When you get that feeling down, try moving the feeling down until you are leading the movement with your lower lat, and then with the muscles that wrap around your spine as it emerges from the pelvic cradle. Conversely, try graping the cable with proper posture and pulling it by folding your weighted hip. Both of these exercises, I think, can be done fairly easily by most people, and exhibit first-hand how power in the extremities of the upper body can come from much deeper than the shoulder.

Again, I am terribly poor at this, and perhaps even incorrect in my musings. But hopefully the above is useful to someone.

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by gazza99
If your power is really generated at the shoulder, your mechanics are seriously lacking my friend.
You know Gary, I really enjoy exchanging information and viewpoints with you, but you really ought to stop assuming that anyone that disagrees with you is somehow deficient. Let's just imagine for a moment that after 24 years of martial arts training and teaching that I may have learned a thing or two. It may not agree with what you know or think you know, but it just might be valid all the same.

As the great Stoic, Epictetus wrote, "If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." This means that once you rest on the assumption that you already know the truth, you stop seeking it.

Yes, I am familiar with classical training principles, silk-reeling, etc. As I mentioned before, it is useful to imagine that power is being generated by the waist, but the physics of it don't pan out.

Without getting into a discussion of esoteric subjects, there are only three types of energy (or power) that we are concerned with when discussing martial arts. First, energy is used to contract muscles to hold them statically to resist motion. Second, energy is used to contract muscles to move bones. Third, muscles are contracted to harden and provide protection (although this is techniquely the first type).

When performing a strike, we are only concerned with the first two types. We are concerned with providing a stable platform for our strike, and we are concerned with moving the strike to the correct location, at the correct speed, to the correct depth.

In martial arts, "striking power" is kinetic energy directed against a static platform. Newton tells us that for any energy directed toward our target an equal amount of energy is directed away from our target. So if we strike with a force of 2000 newtons (reasonable), our body must resist an equal force, and ultimately nearly all of that force reaches the ground via the feet.

(Of course strikes done in the air are subject to the same laws, but the energy does not necessarily reach the ground, but may actually be directed at the ground before the attack. Let's ignore this for the time being though.)

So, as I mentioned, without kinetic energy, there is no strike. Strike = motion. They are the same.

OK, hold your hand and arm in a striking position. Now, without moving anything but your waist, direct your strike to its target. Hold your pelvis perfectly still, and hold your arms and shoulders absolutely static relative to your upper spine. First, you'll find that this is very difficult to do, especially without turning your pelvis or twisting your shoulder.

Ultimately, what happens to generate power? The shoulders move. It is only by moving the shoulders that the strike even goes anywhere. This is true unless you use only your arm and shoulder to move the hand strike.

Ah ha, it occurs to me that this is where the point of contention is based. When I say that power is generated at the shoulder, I mean that the motion of the shoulders drives the strike. Yes, this is partially done by turning "at" the waist.

The upper body (shoulders) turns relative to the pelvis by turning at the waist. This is true. Also, the muscles surrounding the waist (abdominals, external oblique, serratus anterior, sacrospinalis, and infraspinatus) actually turn the upper body relative to the pelvis. Also, lower muscles (gluteus medius, gluteus maximus, great trochanter, and various leg muscles) cause the pelvis to resist or assist the motion.

However, if the shoulders don't move, neither does the strike. In fact, you can't turn at the waist without moving your pelvis, your shoulders, or both. I am not proposing that the power is generated by contracting shoulder muscles (deltoids, trapezius, pectorals, etc). These muscles move the humerus relative to the clavicle and/or the clavicle relative to the spine. Yes, these muscles certainly assist, but the strike is based on the motion of the shoulders - or more accurately, by the turning of the clavicle relative to the pelvis.

Now, let's talk about what makes a powerful strike, and we will see that we are both somewhat wrong. I think we can agree that speed generates power. Well, actually force = mass x acceleration. Turning at the waist increases the mass behind the strike, but honestly does little to increase the acceleration when compared to the incredible acceration that the arm/shoulder muscles can effect.

The most powerful blows involve the whole body. All parts must be moving (or resisting motion) to contribute to the overall mass or acceleration behind the blow.

To me, a "generic" punch with my right hand (for example) involves rotating my pelvis to the left (pushing my right hip forward), turning my shoulders the same direction only slightly further, pulling my right shoulder forward and my left shoulder back, and extending my right arm. This results in a spiral whipping motion involving most of the body.

We may be in agreement in principle, but in disagreement in semantics. So, I'll summarize my point:

1. First, let's not confuse the waist with the pelvis. The waist is of course between the bottom of the rib cage and the top of the pelvis.

2. One doesn't really move the waist, but instead moves "at" the waist.

3. One cannot turn at the waist without turning at the pelvis, shoulders, or both. So, the notion of a punch that is generated solely by a turning of the waist is a physical impossibility. The turning at the waist must accelerate the mass of the shoulder(s) forward. The pelvis must resist or assist in this acceleration.

4. It does no good to move the pelvis or move "at" the waist unless this moves the shoulders (or resists motion in the shoulders). If the shoulders do not move, the strike is not going anywhere unless the shoulder, elbow, or wrist joints are also moved.

5. The muscles that turn the shoulders are indeed located in the waist, but turning the pelvis also helps to turn the shoulders.

6. Force = Mass x Acceleration

7. The turning of the shoulders (and sometimes the pelvis) contributes greatly to Mass and somewhat to Acceleration.

8. The extending of the arm contributes greatly to Acceleration and somewhat to Mass.

9. Any force directed toward the target must be resisted with an equal amount of force. Typically the waist (or sometimes pelvis) is the median between these opposing forces.

10. In grounded attacks (those that don't take place in the air or water) the back force is ultimately directed to the ground. The more force that is not dissipated by the deceleration of mass over time, the more solid the blow. Basically, this means the more rigid your body is at the time of impact, the harder the blow will be. (An important sidenote is that the body must stay relaxed prior to impact in order to generate the maximum speed, and become rigid right at the point of impact.)

So, are we in agreement or not?


Best regards,

-Brent

[guohuen]

Gigage Hisgi Anidawehi (Red5Angel)

Perhaps you meant the waist?

[gazza99]

Yes Brent I believe we are in agreement, you broke down what I meant by the force goes through the shoulder, but not all of it comes from it!

"
Ah ha, it occurs to me that this is where the point of contention is based. When I say that power is generated at the shoulder, I mean that the motion of the shoulders drives the strike. Yes, this is partially done by turning "at" the waist. "

Yes, the motion of the whole body drives the strike, the shoulders are just one of the last places it travels through..but you can see now why I said if the power is only generated in the shoulders it is severely lacking.

Nice breakdown...

Gary

[Former castleva]

I always use chi blast.
;)

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by gazza99
Yes Brent I believe we are in agreement, you broke down what I meant by the force goes through the shoulder, but not all of it comes from it!
Yeah, it occurred to me about half way through my post that we were indeed saying the same thing two different ways.

-Brent

[Mr Punch]

All of which seem to fit in quite nicely with what I've been taught...

Nice visualisation Braden... I can't do it very well though!

Anybody else anything to contribute? With nearly 4000 people on the board, I'd have thought there'd be a few more answers for something so 'basic'!

Also, I'm interested in the split second of the transfer of power: (how) do you change your rooting mechanics? So if you are rooting from the 'bubbling well' do you roll to a forward position, onto the balls of your feet to strike, or do you just change the weighting forwards, without raising the heel for example... or none of the ablove?

I'll contribute more when I've experimented more, and discovered a neat way of describing it!!!... but please everyone: go ahead!!!

[PLCrane]

Sure, I'll add a couple things.

When I strike, the motion is initiated by the hip and moves up my spine and out my arm like a wave. There's a whip-like quality to the motion. This seems to add speed and power.

With regard to turning the shoulders vs. turning the waist, if you rotate at the waist without rotating the pelvis, you'll lose the connection between shoulder and hip. I'm assuming that you're striking straight forward, and not doing something like a spinning hammerfist.

If you rotate the shoulders and pelvis together, you maintain the connection, but there are a couple of ways to do this. If your axis of rotation is at the spine, then the shoulder and pelvis on one side go back, and some of your energy goes back with it. if your axis of rotation is at the supporting hip (opposite the striking hand), then nothing goes backward, and more energy goes forward.

I don't really know what I do with my foot during all of this, other than rooting through the heel. I'll check in class tonight.

[TaoBoy]

Again we see the similarities and differences between styles. And again - are there any right answers? I agree with most of what has been said here - especially BrentCarey's comments (you should really write a book, BC). :)

I'd like to throw this into the mix:

I feel rooted to the ground with the whole of my foot, but I have a sensation of grasping the ground with my toes. I generally accept energy through the body down to the ground via the heel. The reverse is also true as I transfer energy up from the heel (and yong quan - bubbling well) also.

Next...some strikes I use are performed with minimal movement of the hips/pelvis and maximum movment at the waist. Basically, winding up to develop some potential energy. Then you crank the waist in the opposite direction to 'release' the energy along the path to the hand. So the root (let's say everywhere below the waist) is as stable as possible and the upper part of the body is relaxed to strike most effectively.

As for Mat's 2nd question - "Also, I'm interested in the split second of the transfer of power: (how) do you change your rooting mechanics?" As the above method of striking implies a circular movement at the waist the connection to the earth transfers in accordance with this. The transfer is subtle and I see it as more of a 'feeling' of where the energy travels. Finally, upon impact I will tense the striking weapon for a split second and then recoil along the same path to ensure maximum transfer of energy.

I hope that all made some kinda sense. ;)

FYI - Yong Quan (Bubbling Well) is the first point on the kidney meridian and is a very important point on the body. More info on acupuncture.com (http://acupuncture.com/QiKung/Kidney.htm).

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by TaoBoy
As the above method of striking implies a circular movement at the waist the connection to the earth transfers in accordance with this. The transfer is subtle and I see it as more of a 'feeling' of where the energy travels. Finally, upon impact I will tense the striking weapon for a split second and then recoil along the same path to ensure maximum transfer of energy.
Nice explanation! This last moment tensing and recoil are key. This is the difference between a boxing punch and . . . well, other kinds of punches. In boxing, as I understand (as I am not a boxer), the boxer is taught to follow through with punches.

This approach maximizes the "knock-back" power of the punch. It emphasizes and exploits the strength of the boxer. Therefore, stronger boxers are better boxers. Some other martial arts do not rely so greatly on the practitioner's raw strength. How?

Well, when a fist makes contact with a body, the bones and soft tissue will tend to oscillate from the impact. When the punch follows through, the fist tends to dampen these oscillations.

The benefit of this is that the energy is directed back to the fist, and if there is enough force still left behind the punch, will be directed back into the target. Think of a basketball. If you set a basketball on the floor, and punch it into the floor, it will bounce back. If your punch has enough force, it will bounce back from the fist and into the floor.

Contrariwise, if you punch the ball and recoil immediately, the ball will bounce up.

Well, in the human body, when you punch and recoil this causes damaging oscillation. The center of this oscillation is just beyond the apex of the strike. This allows skilled practitioners to direct damage to a specific depth. It also allows a practitioner without brutal strength to execute a damaging blow.

This is not to say that the punch needs to recoil all the way back to its origin. It just has to recoil far enough to avoid interfering with the oscillation.

The interesting thing about these punches is they have minimal "knock-back" power, so don't look very serious. Yet, from a physics point of view, they are a more efficient use of potential energy.

Here's something that is interesting about this whole topic. It amazes me that all of this is powered by food, water, and air. When we talk about the origin of power, we forget that this is really where it comes from.


Originally posted by TaoBoy
(you should really write a book, BC)
Thank you! I'm working on it actually.


Best regards,

Brent