The good grappler: tired of this ultimate fighter

[Crimson Phoenix]

The title got you biting the bait? Good. There it goes:

OK...I'm tired...MUCH tired...tired of that good grappler paradigm shi@t...I respect grappling...it is a part of total combat...a part you can't ignore...but there is something that comes up again and again and again too many times in here: THE GOOD GRAPPLER. What do I mean by that? It's just impossible to compute how many times I read about that good grappler guy. And what ****es me of is that he can do EVERYTHING, or at least prevent you to do everything...yup, that's why he must be the good grappler...so here I read "no, a good grappler won't let you bite his nads" and "no, it's actually a more dangerous position if you stand while trying to kick a good grappler on the ground (...right...)" or "yes, but a good grappler also knows your eye gouges and tiger claw". You got the picture? Everywhere you read about this good grappler that has litterally an answer to everything. I'm pretty sure a good grappler could even auto-fellate if he isn't good grappler enough to get some head by another person, eventhough that has not been yet discussed here.
I'm tired...it reminds me of that kind of "yes, but if you do that, I can do that" or "if you do that, I neutralize like that" thread. It's not useful...it's not even making sense...it's all **** theory...if someone says "if you grab me like this, I do kote gaeshi", then I reply that "right, but if you kote gaeshi, I counter like that"...sure...on the keyboard it's easy...in the streets, it's a whole other story. Theory is good...but it's not practice...if I ask a good grappler to just sit there on the ground and I stand and move and kick him anywhere and any way I want and he says yes, he'd better either a hella good grappler, or a stupid grappler...not just a good grappler. Of course, on the forum someone will say, yes, but the good grappler could counter you like this and do you that...yes, in theory...in practice?
Something makes me laugh pretty much: the good grappler guy can do pretty much everything and just being a good grappler makes it a whole universal justification...but the good puncher/kicker guy? No he can't..he's just the good puncher/kicker guy that will go down because of the good grappler...If we follow the same mental scheme, he could pretty much punch and kick without being grappled, since he's the good puncher kicker...no? He could avoid the clinch, since a good puncher/kicker would find a way to punch or kick the guy trying to clinch...or he could move out of the take down...or knock the guy while he tries the takedown...isn't he the good puncher/kicker?? Don't you think so? Why not then? The good grappler can achieve anything since he's the good grappler, but not the good puncher/kicker then?
Oh, I see, then that is the reason WHY grappling is so superior to everything...

[Felipe Bido]

Royce would choke the good grappler....

[Crimson Phoenix]

No, because the good grappler would evade Royce's choke by... ;)

[ewallace]

A good grappler wouldn't read this whole thread. I must not be a good grappler.

[Ford Prefect]

Sorry, bro. I didn't read all your examples. What people mean when they say "a good "grappler wouldn't let you do (insert thing here)" they mean that once one is familiar with grappling, it is quite easy to prevent being bitten, eye gouged, nut grabbed, etc from somebody unfamiliar with the range. Even when somebody is familiar with the range, many times a move like that will leave you extended in a strange position and easily reversable or submittable.

It's kind of like a good boxer won't worry about somebody winding up and throwing a huge haymaker. It's easily avoidable through positioning and footwork, and there are so many counters because the person is so wide open that it's rediculous. Hope this helps.

[Former castleva]

I´m one of those good grapplers,really! Just like they,I do have a theoretical answer for everything.;)
I use kotegaeshi for wrist grab and strike counter,watch out,if you are about to try them out.:D

[KC Elbows]

Just thought I'd let you all know that I found the good grappler, and I asked him how he's able to avoid all those attacks, and while he was thinking, I shot him.

Nice guys with guns are superior!

[Tigerstyle]

Don't know who you were talking to KC, but a good grappler would never have let you drawn your weapon. He would have quickly determined your movements as hostile, taken you down and quickly achieved superior ground positioning.

"What's to stop me from shooting him while I'm on the ground," you say? I'm sick of this lame argument. You think a grappler doesn't know how to shoot people, too? If anything, a grappler would have the better shooting position, because his bullets will have weight and gravity on their side (due to superior ground positioning). He will also have a more mobile upper body (due to superior ground positioning) for dodging bullets easier.

Besides, have you tested your bullets in a dynamic environment against a resisting opponent? If not, how do you even know if they will work under pressure?

[NorthernMantis]

It's just impossible to compute how many times I read about that good grappler guy. And what ****es me of is that he can do EVERYTHING,

It gets me mad too:mad: For some reason grapplers can do EVERYTHING, even the non-efective stuff that they claim that doesn't work.

MA Fanatic was claiming that eye gouges don't work for kung fu guys but a grappler can,yeah right like a grappler trains at hitting faster like a striker. What a lie. Let me guess only grapplers can do high kicks because they know how to grapple right? :rolleyes: Grapplers arent the end all beall of fighting.

[SifuAbel]

ROFL!!!


CP,

Ironically, most of the good grapplers aren't the ones playing the "but this" game. Its usually a fan that treats his heros like comic book characters. "Hulk can smash through a mountain but Shazam could still beat him with his atomic breath , yet Hulk could withstand it because he's got closable nostrils, then shazam could twist his big green nipples into submission." and so on, and so on.
I does get boring. Most good grapplers know not to play anyone for a sucker, even if he is. They know they could get hurt. They know they are not made of adamantium.

[LEGEND]

Good Grapplers with TKD training can kick high!

[KC Elbows]

Tigerstyle,
Actually, the gun was disguised as a copy of "Grappling Guys of Guam", so I didn't even have to draw it. He would have gotten better position, but he was waiting for officials to dispute my use of a gun.

However, I did have to jump clear when he collapsed, as he was on the ground.

Nonetheless, the good grappler is dead.

I have, however, received requests for a rematch. I expect to do equally well in future altercations, as crosshair training is superior.

[Merryprankster]

What SifuAbel said.

Look, a "good grappler," is somebody who is as good at takedowns and body control on the ground, as most "good strikers" are at controlling the distance and timing on their feet.

The problem comes in two forms:

1. The "good striker," may not be familiar with takedown defenses. This is a serious problem when fighting a "good grappler." In fact, it is MUCH more serious than the grappler being unfamiliar with punching and kicking, for the simple reason that unless you either knockout, disable, or dissuade the grappler, eventually, you're going to get taken down if you don't know how to defend it. People can absorb a few punches and kicks. Strikes to "vital targets," such as joints, eyes and throats, are not always that easy to hit. We can all afford to get hit a few times. Can you afford to get taken down/be in a clinch (Stop thinking MT... I'm talking about a REAL clinch with somebody trying to take you down) or bodylock position? Not if you don't know how to defend it.

2. If you don't know how to fight on the ground, even a little, you don't know how to get up. If you can't get up as a "good striker," your primary weapons are gone. You might even fall victim to just the "big guy," who outweighs you by 50 lbs, managed to accidentally trip you over a chair leg, and is pounding the stuffing out of your face.


It's not a matter of better or not better.... It's a matter of completeness. Why did the wrestlers make such an impact when they hit the UFC and Pride, originally? Because they had a STANDUP game (takedowns) and a ground game (Beating the stuffing out of you). Straight BJJ guys were notoriously bad at takedowns, and couldn't submit the wrestlers and got pounded. "Good strikers" couldn't defend the takedown and got pounded. Then people figured that out, and started learning everything, usually with something they are GREAT at, and the necessary bits of other things.

The days of the well rounded fighter are upon us!! (not that the weren't before....) :)

If you have all the answers in your style, practice hard and use it...if not, seek out the knowledge you need, wherever it is, and get it.

[SifuAbel]

Although, as a side point to point one (hike!)
the good striker can overwhelm and keep the grappler (not knowing a good striking game)at bay and keep his distance and be in his game. Ive seen quite a few bout lately that have gone this way. Of course it wasn't pure boxing either.

[NorthernMantis]

lol @ Legend

[Choke]

Good post.

If your training/system does not cover the 4 basic fighting ranges - kicking, punching, trapping and grappling - your going to eat it when the BJJ or wrestler grapples you and takes you down or when the TKD guy kicks you or the boxer punches you.

[Ryu]

"Just thought I'd let you all know that I found the good grappler, and I asked him how he's able to avoid all those attacks, and while he was thinking, I shot him. "

LMAO!! :D I don't know why this struck me so funny.... I guess I kinda pictured "KC" in this story as the hand to hand instructor in the Monty Python sketch who keeps talking about fighting fruit, and then shoots one of his students! :D

Ryu

[Crimson Phoenix]

sifu Abel: indeed, in a streetfight there is only one certainty: nothing is for sure...
but then again, the good grappler would...oh well...LOL

[Ford Prefect]

Wow. At least nobody feels insecure. lol!

[Merryprankster]

SifuAbel--

Exactly--I doubt anybody who is just trying to "strike and maneuver" his way out of a takedown will meet with much success. I prefer the term "stand-up" fighter--it means you know how to stay on your feet--not just fight on them :)

[SifuAbel]

I don't know ma' bro. Stand up fighter conjures up images of boxers on stilks. I prefer "strategic striker" although it seem s too long. How about "Kung fu man" :D I think that won't wash with this crowd.
Why did I say that last thing? Because, at least in the styles I do, we don't walk straight into a guy with legs locked ala the guy from the video.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"we don't walk straight into a guy with legs locked ala the guy from the video."

i'm with able. my sifu might not be the best kf man in the states, but none of us would have fought like that ... . regardless of the actual outcome.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis


MA Fanatic was claiming that eye gouges don't work for kung fu guys but a grappler can,yeah right like a grappler trains at hitting faster like a striker. What a lie. Let me guess only grapplers can do high kicks because they know how to grapple right? :rolleyes: Grapplers arent the end all beall of fighting.

This thread is fuggin hilarious! However, I had to respond to this quote... There is a reason that ma fanatic said that... when you see stand up fighters practicing an eye gouge, what do the do? try to strike their MOVING, RESISTING, UNRESTRAINED oppoonent in the eyes. A grappler would make sure his opponent was on the ground and restrained. Naturally, a restrained opponent is easier to eye gouge than one that's moving freely.

Now, back to the topic, did you know that a good grappler can do a chi blast?

[Felipe Bido]

The good grappler comes out mostly at night....mostly...

[Crimson Phoenix]

Seven, of course, this is notorious...Once, I asked a secret sifu in the emei mountain to show me dim mak to teach these UFC guys a lesson...he then looked at me with a puzzled and scared look and told me "no, you don't want to do that if you like life: a good grappler knows dim mak better than you ever could".
**** these good grapplers!!!!

[respectmankind]

I didn't read the whole thread, but meh. Not that I am taking any sides ( I get mad at any side using theories like that) but I see problem with some of the grappling responses. A)If it is admitted that a human that trains in any specific area become more skilled in that area and thus better able to protect himself in that particular area he trains in (area not as in part or position of body, but area as in technique or what not he trains in) , and if the grappler is skilled in getter away from eye attacks, does he train in defending those? Because I have seen no grappler who trains in how to protect against a friggin finger in the eye (other than response time) or many other of that theory crap brought up. Not that I defend alot of that crap but meh, I just wanna ramble. I need some marshmellows. Beer, where is my beer.