Wing Chun treasure

[red5angel]

this original thread got moved for some unknown reason......

How many people are out there right now honestly searching for real WING CHUN? How many of you are out there not only looking at different instructors, different schools or ways of doing things, but also looking at what you are learning currently? How does it stack up locally, or across the globe?
Do you take what your instructor is giving you, mull it over, think about it and experiment with it or is that taboo? Do you unquestioningly follow what your instructor tells you to do? Is your instructor still learning? Is he also searching for good WING CHUN? Is he looking to improve and in improving look to lead his students along the path of improvement? If they have stopped, why? do they "know" the entire system and now can honestly say they have mastered it? Growth in and the search for good kungfu is a path that leads down a lifetime.
Money and time are usually the two biggest excuses for not pursuing WING CHUN. Not enough money or not feeling like you are spending it wisely. the time to me is the most important thing, I dont mind spending money on a seminar here or there, or paying a drop in fee to check out another school or an instructor. Now I pay plenty to travel to train but its worth it. time to me is the most important thing. I work a good job and make enough money to be happy, and every two weeks I still get my paycheck so its always coming in. But time is a one way path. If you are on the path to searching for good kungfu but you feel you are wasting your time where you are at, why not get out and look around a little? Or even better, alot!
Alot of people have a few freinds on this forum and off of it in te Wing Chun world, use it as an excuse to get out and see what other people are doing. use seminar invitations and class invitations to check it out!

[red5angel]

I recieved some negative responses, you can read them on the Searching for Kungfu thread... here was my reply...

These replies crack me up. Regardless of who I am or what my "ulterior" motives are supposed to be, the points are still valid and still good.
Instead of calling me troll, or smack talking maybe you should be asking yourself why it bothers you that I post what I post? I hear all the time, "it such a waste" or "its like being attracted to an accident" but I think for some it might be something else. Maybe I am hitting sore points with some of you? Maybe deep down you know you havent done the footwork to find out what is as what isnt good? Maybe instead of sucking it up and admitting I could be right, you have to attack instead, its supposed to be a good defensive mechanism.

Maybe you have searched and found that most o fit is pretty much the same? It all looks similar so it must all pretty much be the same thing? I say if 99% is similar there is still 1% out there that is different and possibly much much better then the 99%. Its why I am studying what I am studying and who I am studying with.

[fa_jing]

Red5 - I think you (and all of us) would do well to ponder the following quote, I think it was George Foreman:
"Everyone has a plan until they get hit"

In other words, finding the most bestest lineage is not the #1 concern, there are many great WC lineages and the quality of the instructor is most important. And, alot of what you need to be a fighter is not specific to WC. One's teacher may be able to explain the theory, but can he/she teach you the intangibles like fighting spirit, calmness, recovery? Awareness, etc?

-FJ

[yuanfen]

more preaching from the pastor in residence....
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzsnorezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzpipip ipip
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzif you missed it---again
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzz

[S.Teebas]

Stop trolling Red5angel.

[red5angel]

Fa_jing - your points are good, but let me clarify something. I am not talking about lineages here, I am talking about good kungfu, period. Quality of the instructors is definitely important, but what does that mean? Is he a good guy, and even if he isnt the best instructor thats ok? Maybe he is a really good teacher but has a lousy personality? Some of it is about balance but how do you know what a good balance is if you have never looked?
I also agree that some of what you need to be a good fighter lies outside of wingchun, and these things your instructor should be able to help you find. For some, they never will, but the cool thing about WC, it can be learned by anyone if taught properly, and even if you coudlnt normally fight your way out of a paper bag, it may be able to help extract you from a situation.I thnk it is reasonable to say that if you spent a few months at a school, really applied yourself to what they are teaching, compared the top students to others you have seen, as well as the instructor, you can get a good feel for how good they are and how good what they are teaching is. But then why stop there? If you find a good teacher, do you settle? What if just down the road there is a much better teacher? you would never know unless you got out and looked around right?
Leung Sheung was purported to have a small sign outside his school that was hard to find. My theory is that only people really looking would find it.........

[anerlich]

This subject has already been discussed at length on several threads recently, many started by red5angel.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result.

[Spark]

Why do I get the feeling that you are always asking all these questions that you either THINK you already know the answers to, or don't care what anyone elses are because they might be different from your own. So why do you bother?

[reneritchie]

red5angel stop spamming.

[Bertygerm]

Mad subject,crazzy

[Fresh]

He put the same moved thread up a second time! :confused: Three is no question the guy is intentionally spamming the forum! :mad: I hope the moderators move it again. And again. Even better if they can automate the thread moves and save themselves the time and agravation. ;)

At least he got the right thumbs-DOWN icon on his post this time. :D

[kungfu cowboy]

Darkness falls across the land
The midnite hour is close at hand
Creatures crawl in search of blood
To terrorize y'awl's neighbourhood
And whosoever shall be found
Without the soul for getting down
Must stand and face the hounds of hell
And rot inside a corpse's shell
The foulest stench is in the air
The funk of forty thousand years
And grizzy ghouls from every tomb
Are closing in to seal your doom
And though you fight to stay alive
Your body starts to shiver
For no mere mortal can resist
The evil of the thriller


(into maniacal laugh, in deep echo)

[anerlich]

Leung Sheung was purported to have a small sign outside his school that was hard to find. My theory is that only people really looking would find it.........

My theory is that your theory is nonsensical.

Why bother with a sign at all if you only want the really committed to find your place? Why have a school at all and not train in a disused hangar in Area 51, or in a cave 3/4s of the way up Mt Everest?

And if you admire Leung Sifu's alleged approach, why are you saturation-bombing this forum with advertorials?

Or did Leung Sifu miss the REAL point of WC as well, along with that famous JKD exponent Emin Boztepe, Bruce Lee, and apparently every other WC exponent out there other than Carl Dechiara and his students?

No offence, KFC, but I really hate Michael Jackson
:mad:

[{i^(]

Q: whats the difference between a neurotic and an idiot?

A: an idiot can learn from experience.

you'll note that means i'm NOT calling anyone an idiot here!

a saying from a different context, which ought to be a kuen kuit: 'nothing like having your @$$ handed to you to make you re-think your strategies'. some day, ask carl about the story of ken's 'move'. then you'll see how he EARNED what he says/does.

re: the little sign: LS said 'if you found me, you were lucky'. he was probably very picky about his students.

[vingtsunstudent]

''Regardless of who I am or what my "ulterior" motives are supposed to be, the points are still valid and still good.''

who said that they are still valid and good? you the 8 month experienced grandmaster of laa laa land.

''Maybe I am hitting sore points with some of you? Maybe deep down you know you havent done the footwork to find out what is as what isnt good? Maybe instead of sucking it up and admitting I could be right, you have to attack instead, its supposed to be a good defensive mechanism.''

well there is no maybe about this- you are a BEGINNER and everybody is sick of hearing your bull**** over and over again, also where have you proven that all your hard work has shown your footwork to be good, surely not at that toughest of proving grounds- training?

vts

[TjD]

im not searching for real wing chun

i've found it

[gnugear]

Originally posted by {i^(


a saying from a different context, which ought to be a kuen kuit: 'nothing like having your @$$ handed to you to make you re-think your strategies'. some day, ask carl about the story of ken's 'move'. then you'll see how he EARNED what he says/does.

re: the little sign: LS said 'if you found me, you were lucky'. he was probably very picky about his students.

Are you refering to the story of Leung Sheung "benching" Ken?

[black and blue]

"Leung Sheung was purported to have a small sign outside his school that was hard to find. My theory is that only people really looking would find it........."

Maybe he just couldn't afford a big sign. :rolleyes:

Not everything is laced with hidden meaning. And it would be crazy to assume you're hitting a sore spot with your posts. Some of the guys calling you a troll are well respected and have been training for 10-20+ years!

They've seen other lineages/clubs, trained with, touched hands with etc. You ought to look a little more closely in the mirror, Red5Angel.

It's more than likely they, not you, have a handle on what's what in the Wing Chun world.

Besides, even if you are right, what do you care if 'they' won't listen? It makes no odds. Train, learn, enjoy. The three things I, in my limited experience, try to do with regards this great art.

Duncan

[Mithrandir]

Red,

What in your definition is "real WC"?

Do you in your opinion possess the ability to deliver "real WC"?

[yuanfen]

Oh no- never ask red5 a question. Noah's Ark has enough trouble with red5's existing "muddy" flood.

[{i^(]

yep. nothing to get your irish up with, though.

what i'm saying is, even if you have a 'killer move' (it was a good move) and a set of good strategies, there's always someone who'll take you down.

in ken's case, he's open enough to freely admit it- and to have used it to improve his WC, what's more. if he had an attitude of 'this is IT, there's nothing better', he wouldn't be ken chung. thats an example for us: think for yourself, test everything, nothing is gospel.

maybe the kuen kuit would read: 'butt done think two'. so we'd be arguing over it's meaning for decades....;-)

[red5angel]

{i^( - I have heard the story, a good one. For the record, Carl has always said Ken is way ahead of him in his understanding and knowledge. There is always someone better and that is part of my point, why settle for mediocre, and have alot of people better then you, when you can seek out the best and have maybe a small minority better then you?

Mithrandir - the question is not what is "real" but what is good?

B&B - of course not everything is laced with hidden meaning, from what I understand the small sign and its meaning werent "hidden" so much as just hard to find. As for some of the guys calling me troll, well its label overused and misunderstood apparently, although renee has finally switched to spamming instead of trolling ;)
However I have made this point and I will make it again,just because you study something for 20 years doesnt mean you really get it. time is not always a factor......

LOL!@KFC!

Anerlich, what I find most ironic is that with every thread you say has become redundant or overstated or overused, I get plenty of post from you..... ;) Shouldnt you be filling those gaps right now?

[gnugear]

Originally posted by {i^(
yep. nothing to get your irish up with, though.


No, not at all:)

That's a great example of being able to check your ego at the door.
It certainly appears that his Wing Chun changed for the better!

[Mithrandir]

Hey Red,

>Mithrandir - the question is not what is "real" but what is good?

Then why do you make statements like;

>How many people are out there right now honestly searching for real WING CHUN?

You also never answered my question...do you have in your opinion the ability to deliver "real WC" or "good WC"?

While you are at it perhaps you can give specific definitions of what "good WC" is?

[[Censored]]

That's a great example of being able to check your ego at the door. It certainly appears that his Wing Chun changed for the better!

And yet, after all that refinement, he still doesn't chase people around the Net, presuming to fix their broken Wing Chun. Unlike his great-grandson. :rolleyes:

[red5angel]

I love you guys! ;)

Mithrandir, my bad, real and good to me are pretty much interchangeable, often though some people look at "real" as being something like "Yip Mans" wingchun or lineage oriented, I do not however. As for what I think good wingchun is, we can talk about it all day, as a matter of fact you can go to several of my other threads to see what I mean, but in the end, unless we can touch hands, talking about it doesnt get us very far.

[Mithrandir]

Red,

>Regardless of who I am or what my "ulterior" motives are >supposed to be, the points are still valid and still good.

Says who? Yourself---and you are who in the Wing Chun community? Just what is it exactly that you have accomplished within the Wing Chun community?


>Instead of calling me troll, or smack talking maybe you should >be asking yourself why it bothers you that I post what I post?

How about because after 8 months or "real wing chun" you have demonstrated an amazing disregard for the seniors of your's and other lineages. You seem to enjoy talking down to those whose opinion differs from your own. It is obvious to some on this forum that your possess not only tremendous gaps in your knowledge of Wing Chun, but also in your reasoning skills and ability to process logic. Your blatant disrespect for others is mezmerizing when viewed in its totality. I can honestly say that I believe interaction with you to be not only a waste of time and effort--but I have found it leaves one with an unwholesome feeling. I would think that at your early stage of development in WC you would be better served if you cultivated your listening skills and put your pursuit of skills in the realm of oration for another day.

FYI, if I was you I would avoid seeking a future in a political office, somehow I don't think it would turn out good for you. In fact, maybe you should avoid public speaking for a few years--you don't appear to possess the skill sets that are requisite for the undertaking of such a venture.


Hope this helps the ignorance of your situation

[red5angel]

Mithrandir - thanks for the "help" but let me clarify a few things first. First of all, there are a few (notice the word few) people on this forum that seem to be actually serious about wing chun (before you even think it, most of them are some of my biggest detractors). Like the rest of the wing chun community there is probably a pretty good cross section of people here who are "hobbyist" for whatever that means, but even more amusing is the fact that they can hide behind the facade of the internet and pretend to know much more then they do. I get accused of this all the time, but in time we shall who is growing and who is understanding.
My "crusade" as so labeled by members of this forum, is nothing but to seperate the crap the pervades the wingchun world out there, yes I use the word crap and I will use it again and again because there is a lot of it out there. This doesnt preclude the idea that some wingchun out there is good, but that the majority is not. this also doesnt mean that you may not be practicing good wingchun, BUT, one of my points that I make is that most people have no idea of the difference between good and bad because it almost all looks the same. Look at some of the conversations you get on here, most of it is miniscule differences in detail and not really the meat of wingchun.
You wanna know why I think people get upset here Mithrandir? The really honest reason? I think that most of the guys who get the most upset have no idea what they are really talking about, or doing but on the internet that doesnt show. there is a lot of talk and all you have to do is pat a few backs and say hmmm thats interesting, not the way I do it but still, thats ok. Meanwhile back in front of the keyboard everyone is sneering or huffing or double talking.
If you have something good to say, great, if you have something bad to say you wont see me blowing sunshine up your butt, but you also wont see me "attacking" you either. I may disagree with you but get over it, I do. If I didnt do you think I would still be here?
Something commonly said here is that you have to wade through the crap to get to the real jewels and that is absolutely true. I have met some really cool people, some of them who I disagree with but we still get along without kissing each others backsides. If getting along means wingchun gets watered down and becomes thin and weak, I am not interested in it. the guy sin Hong Kong fought for alot of reasons, some being ego, some to prove thier art worked, some to refine it, and some to see what else was out there and how thier stuff held up. They may have shook hands afterwards but they were out there testing it. now a days you get cute little "full contact" tournemants or chi sau tournemants where people cant decide exactly what they should be looking for.
I say what I say because look around you and open your eyes. Look at Karate, look at TKD, look at your local Taichi for touching your inner spirit type schools. It all gets watered down because people stop looking and challenging themselves. their lazy, their ignorant, their unknowing or unwitting, whatever the excuse they dont do the foot work and they dont TRY.
I bring up Carl Dechiara all the time, why? Because the guy is a true pioneer in the Wing chun World. He has busted his azz to get where he is, day in and day out his love for the art has driven him to get better and better, no slowing down, no half assing it. he is the real deal when it comes to martial arts. There are others out there, sure, but this is wingchun and it is what he teaches. If there were more people like him out there, and a few of his students, or his instructor Ken Chung (and there are even fewer men like Ken) then Wing Chun would be at the top of the heap instead of something some BJJ guy wants to learn some techniques from.
You take what I say how you want to but take a deep and honest loo at the art and what is happening to it. If you can walk away afte rthat and be content then go along your merry little way and dont worry about me, because I am not worried about you. But if this concerns you so much, if the things I say get you so upset then take another look at why. this is an internet forum, does what I say really bother you so much? does it really matter to you what some internet "nut" says on this forum?

[yuanfen]

upset? who me? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzz
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zz

[S.Teebas]

Red has shown us the light once again!!...Man he's going to be famous!!!

I will sit back while he saves the WC world (what a guy!!)

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[rogue]

I say what I say because look around you and open your eyes. Look at Karate, look at TKD, look at your local Taichi for touching your inner spirit type schools. It all gets watered down because people stop looking and challenging themselves. their lazy, their ignorant, their unknowing or unwitting, whatever the excuse they dont do the foot work and they dont TRY. Are you trying to insult me R5A?:D


Because the guy is a true pioneer in the Wing chun World. OK my friend I'm going to call you on this one, what has Carl pioneered?

[Frank Exchange]

Sorry to say this, and to have to repeat what many have said to you, but your rude overgeneralisations are insulting to many, many high quality schools and teachers.

You have seen a tiny, tiny sample of the WC in the world. The USA is by no means the be-all and end-all of WC. There are fine practioners, but there are fine practioners all over the world. What about Europe, Canada, Australasia, China and Hong Kong?

When called out on this, you assume that those who are questioning your tone are worried that theirs is the bad WC to which you refer. This is not true. The point is, when you say 'most', then you are lumping everyone together, based on a tiny sample size.

Only when you have seen ALL of the WC in the world, are you qualified to say MOST. Until then, you can say SOME.

So am I worried that I am being taught bad WC? No. My instructor is a direct student of Wong Shun Leung (heard of him?), personally authorised to teach his method here in the UK, and has been practicing for 32 years.

David Peterson from Melbourne, who sometimes posts here, has probably had more contact with WSL than anyone and has been practicing for a frighteningly long period of time. vingtsunstudent is a student of Barry Lee, referred to by WSL as the 'machine' due to his unstoppability in fighting. These are all excellent, highly respected teachers, and just from my particular lineage.

The point is, although many of us know that our teachers and way of doing things are worthwhile, and the 'best we have found', we dont keep bloody harping on about it.

[yenhoi]

Was Wong Shun Leung Yip Man's cook?

[yuanfen]

R%A-who else-sez:Because the guy is a true pioneer in the Wing chun World'
--------------------------------------
Wow-glory be, the tent revival and carnival is here-pity the poor laggards.

Frankexchange- well known problem in observation- is not just what is observed- but the observer-in this case the pioneer of new methods of survey research in Minneapolis who spams
and pollutes away during long down time at work.

[Axiom]

Originally posted by red5angel
their ignorantJust 2 words, but so ironic :)

[Frank Exchange]

>> Was Wong Shun Leung Yip Man's cook? <<

Err, no.

[vingtsunstudent]

'Was Wong Shun Leung Yip Man's cook?'

he may have been, but i think what many might not know is that besides that he was apparently not bad at the fighting side of things as well. infact i've even heard rumour that he was quite good, which i personally think is better than not bad.
have you ever had to fight to handle one of those huge woks when cooking a large meal?
if you have then i'm sure all of that just made more sense to you than it did me.
honestly, where do some people come up with these things?:rolleyes:
vts

[red5angel]

Rogue - yes my friend ;) :D Actually I did Karate, at a very good school for a couple of years. It wasnt for me but anyone who is serious about Karate I will always point in their direction!As for pioneering, well, he has taken some of the best knowledge from one o fthe best WC people around and refined that. Talking to a fellow classmate yesterday we were looking back at the lineage itself, Yip Man- Leung sheung - Ken Chung - Carl Dechiara, and we came to the conclusion that they havent so much changed things as really refined the things passed down from the last generation. Since I dont know Ken himself I can only comment on Carls stuff and I kow that Carl spent alot of time and hard work figuring out how to make it more accessible, and easier to learn for people who come after him. Of course others have done this as well but I havent seen it done to such an extent. He has stayed true to the intents and principals of wingchun where others have allowed their ego to lead them astray. I am sure alot of this also has to do with the fact that he has really appreciated what Ken has done with wing chun as well.
As for me, I may not posess all of the wonderful knowledge some of you guys on wing chun, but I will! For now I am happy with the basics, the foundations of wing chun. Who knows, when I get out a little and start touching hands with some of you guys I may learn some things form you as well!

[12345]

Wong Shun Leung was indeed Yip Man's cook, his video "The Science of In Fighting" proved an invaluable source of culinary knowledge when I first left home at the age of 63. Nurse...nurse......I need more medication nowwwwwwww....