Weight Distribution Revisited (for the umpteenth time...)

[Zhuge Liang]

I thought a bit about the pros and cons of both the 50/50 distribution and the 0/100 distribution. On the whole, I agree that each method has its own advantages and disadvantages, and if you're good enough, you can minimize the disadvantages.

That being said, I would like some input on what I conceive as a 0/100 advantage. I'm not experienced enough to speak definitively on the subject, so rather, I want to see what some of the more experienced 50/50 propenents think of this.

One of the advantages of the 0/100 distribution that crossed my mind was the free use of your front leg while your hands are in contact. Let me clarify. If you're sensitive enough, you can detect what your opponent intends to do if you have already made contact. In a sample scenario, persons A and B have bridge contact via their hands. Person B attempts to kick. If person A is sensitive enough, person A may be able to sense the kick and counter/exploit.

What does this have to do with weight distribution? Simply this. I believe that it is easier to minimize telegraphing the use of your leg (to kick or sweep) with the 0/100 weight distribution. If I had weight on the front leg and I wanted to kick with it, I have two options (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). One would be to shift my weight to the back leg so that my center of gravity rests on it, and thereby allowing my front leg to do as it will. The other option would be attempting to kick with the front leg with weight already on it. In this case, the moment I pick up my front leg, I will be falling forward, since my front leg was supporting part of my body weight, removing that support would allow gravity to take its course. But the goal of the kick would (probably) be to use the momentum of my mass dropping for adding power to the kick. I hope this doesn't sound silly, since in my experience, it is used a lot, in other arts. For instance, back in my Hapkido days, we were taught the push/thrust kick, in which you drive your hips into your opponent. Hopefully, your opponent is there to absorb your momentum. If not, you will have to "fall" onto your front leg.

Now with both methods described above, the shift in weight, whether fowards or backwards, is readily detectable by your opponent if he/she is sensitive enough. Going back to the 0/100 weight distribution, you can essentially eliminate the need to shift your weight back before you kick. Your weight is already on your back leg, so your front leg is ready to kick or sweep at will, with minimal telegraphing. Thus your opponent is under the constant threat of a kick or sweep that is difficult to detect unless leg contact is established.

Note that I didn't post this to say that one weight distribution is better than the other. I realize that there are great advantages to 50/50 as well, one of them being that it is easier to establish and maintain stability. I just wanted to see if my above point is a valid one, and hopefully some of the more experienced people can shed some light on this for me.

Zhuge Liang

[red5angel]

Zhuge Liang - The telegraphing and weight shifting is where the difference is for me. with a 50/50, if you want to kick with the front leg you have to shift back, even if it is slightly, and that is a moment in which you are vulnerable. This 'pase' also becomes a handycap IMO, when your leg is being attacked. With someone sensitive enough they could break your leg while you are still trying to shift.

[EnterTheWhip]

Be solid in 50/50.
Be solid in 0/100.
Be solid in 30/70.

This is a martial art after all....

[yuanfen]

Whew; not again. Whatever so called weights you have-there are
always adjustments to be made within each framework for doing things. In aech lineage with good instruction and repetition you learn to make these adjustments. I have seen kenneth Chung move with 0-100- he can move forward fast. I know 50-50 people who move just as fast and/or as fast as is needed.There are other 0-100 folks who dont move as fast. there are slow 50-50 ers and fast ones. I and choose not to do 0-100 in the forms. I have worked out with 0-100ers- sticking that empty front leg towards me doesnt bother me much. I am more interested in figuring out where your balance is.
Again, ina fight all kinds of weighting will occur. In training - in the forms myself I average 50-50 and am very comfortable with it...
in moving even with one problem knee. red5angel is as usual wrong(a little knowledge is dangerous) in assuming that a 50-50 er has to "shift" weights to kick..
you just kick. When you step forward to walk- do you lean back or just walk. When I step forward as though I am walking,I can kick low kicks with either leg.. Nothing special about me- just practice. Maintaining balance
and coordination and being able to explode is the important thing.

[yuanfen]

red5angel sez:with a 50/50, if you want to kick with the front leg you have to shift back, even if it is slightly
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baloney.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Yuanfen,


Originally posted by yuanfen
When you step forward to walk- do you lean back or just walk.

But walking is a sort of "controlled falling." You don't shift your weight back, you shift your weight forward, which was the other option I gave. (If there is option number 3, please feel free to enlighten me)

My question is if this weight shifting is detectable and if so, would the empty front leg kick have an advantage. I realize that if you're good, your opponent won't know you're kicking him until he's nailed, but I'm just trying to get a relative comparison.



sticking that empty front leg towards me doesnt bother me much. I am more interested in figuring out where your balance is..

This is a good point. If you have control of the other person's balance, I suppose you won't worry too much about a kick. But my question is about relative advantages. Does 0/100 weight distribution have an advantage when it comes to non-telegraphic kicking, even if marginally? Or are there no advantages here? Or is 50/50 even better for non-telegraphic kicking? If it is, then why?

Just trying to pick the brains of those with experience.

Thanks in advance,
Zhuge Liang

[yuanfen]

Zhuge Liang sez

Hi Yuanfen,

But walking is a sort of "controlled falling."
((Boxing hasa falling step. But thats different from wing chun IMO
in moving from ygkym to biu ma.)))

You don't shift your weight back, you shift your weight forward, which was the other option I gave. (If there is option number 3, please feel free to enlighten me)

((If you keep your main frame and structure steady and your knees cooperative and coordinated you can go forward-think bicycle-think tank- without bouncing or tilting forward or backward)

My question is if this weight shifting is detectable and if so, would the empty front leg kick have an advantage.

((I dont think so-otherwise I would practice it. Others possibly could make it work. I know lots of folks who can kick with either leg spontaneously froma 50 50 position. Reminder again-there are lots of good 0/100 folks too))


This is a good point. If you have control of the other person's balance, I suppose you won't worry too much about a kick.

((I dont live in fear of kicks. Initially beginning wing chun people until they get to good chum kiu can be intimidated. The wing chun learning curve is a steady upwards one. Kickers take big chances regarding ending up on the ground, having their legs broken
or endangering family prductivity if the wing chun person can analyse structure and balance))

Or is 50/50 even better for non-telegraphic kicking? If it is, then why?

((Better balance. You wont know which leg i(editorial I-please note) will use for my kick.
You dont know whether I will be stepping or kicking or both.
Same for balanced hands. Many western boxers(not the Cus DAmato ones) stand a bit sideways.. hence less telegraphing with the jab... but more telegraphing with their Big bertha- the right hand unless they are southpaw. Thats why the jab is used more. The pre medicated and disciplined Tyson could unload with either hand- now his bicycle seems to be gone.))

Just trying to pick the brains of those with experience.

((Hope you leave some of mine for me...brain picking or brain drain
analogies give me the shivers. Hannibal?
PS... these are judgement calls-not dogma-the Arizona sun shrivels up dogmas fast. Show me a better mousetrap-I will but it. I am all ears.)) yuanfen

[hunt1]

Zl-it isnt a question of which weighting is better but when one is more appropriate than the other.YOu should train 50/50 and backleg equally.Dont think anyone does frontleg?
The range you are fighting at will determine your leg weighting.As for kicking in WC a step is a kick and a kick is a step.When you do footwork drills substitute a kick for a step and you will understand.

Telegraphing a kick has more to do with upperbody movement than lower body.You can kick from 50/50 or backleg without telegraphing.

[reneritchie]

Z - If you've already made contact, regardless of your weighting, in an ideal situation you should have broken your opponent's balance/structure/alignment, making it difficult for them to continue their offense, making your "free leg" not that necessary. Even if things aren't ideal, when your weight is joined by your opponent, the 50/50 is them/you, not just you, and you want to change that to your advantage. Your "free" leg, IMHO, would be anything but, as it would be slicing, pressing, bracing, etc. into the opponent as part of the breaking process.

If you're not in contact and just put a leg out there, 100/0 or 50/50 against a skilled opponent, you've given them a shot at your leg and telegraphed a flank. If you're more skilled then your opponent, of course, it may not matter.

As others have mentioned before, in application, static models (including weighting) break down and every method flows and adapts according to conditions.

Also, I think we train MA to minimize the 'falling' aspect of walking (why we do all those reps ;)

r5a - Some people in 100/0 can kick lightning fast and almost imperceptibly from the 100 weighted leg. Tsui Sheung Tin, I think, does this as a demo and I've felt it in my own lineage as well. If they can pull that off, 50/50 probably isn't much of a problem to anyone with skill.

Hunter - Pao Fa Lien, Cho, and some other branches I think have the front weighted horse (Gung Jee Ma). I've seen some Yip folk do it with the Knives.

RR

[S.Teebas]

Tsui Sheung Tin, I think, does this as a demo and I've felt it in my own lineage as well. If they can pull that off, 50/50 probably isn't much of a problem to anyone with skill.

I learn from Sigung Tsui Sheung Tin's line, and we are taught to use a 50/50 most of the time. IF you want to calls it as 50/50. In reality we are taught to be comfortable in our stance while still maintaining the ability to absort [certain amounts of] force. But because we practice both in the forms they are both there. eg if you suddenly find your self on your back foot (for what ever reason) then you can still attack in the 100/0 stance.

But really i think there's no point in being pedantic about exactly how much weight is on each foot. In a real situation you dont have time to analyse your weightedness... only time to get "ready" and react while staying safe. (and always attack of course!)

[anerlich]

FWIW:

100/0 allows you to kick faster off the front leg. However, to kick with the other leg, you have to transfer weight and change stance.

50/50 *might* take longer to bring the front leg into play and might be less telegraphed. However it will take less time to bring the other leg into play.

100/0 *might* be make it harder for the opp to feel the kick coming (though IMO the weight shift is one of the LESS obvious indications that a kick is coming for just about everyone but the supremely skilled), but it's alot easier to guess which leg the kick is coming from.

Swings and roundabouts.

While the topic is not uninteresting (though it does come up regularly), I doubt anyone will change their approach to WC based on any post made here. Even posts by Carl Dechiara's no 1 spin doctor.

[TjD]

i think the most important thing here is to use whatever your teacher wants you to (if hes a good teacher, r5a may disagree with you but thats another story :) )

i think 50/50 or 0/100 have some different body mechanics involved with them, especially in kicking, and switching could mess with a lot of things that your teacher is trying to get you to figure out

both are definately viable, you can use both to make you an extremely good fighter :) people have done so using either

perhaps mabye the only real advantage one has over the other is how well the practicioner uses it

personally i like the 0/100, and i think its best for me, especially with learning from my sifu and sigung, i can take it as far as i let myself take it

[gnugear]

Originally posted by yuanfen
red5angel sez:with a 50/50, if you want to kick with the front leg you have to shift back, even if it is slightly
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baloney.

Yuanfen,

How is that possible without compromising (shifting) your stance?

[TjD]

you can just raise the leg and fall forward into your kick

[Frank Exchange]

If you are in chisao distance and have contact, ie close enough to touch your opponents body, the fact that your kicking opponent is in 0/100 or 50/50 is irrelevant if you have good lut sao jit chung.

The moment his foot comes off the floor your forward pressure and intent dumps him on his arse. Obviously, you would have to practice this, but once you have it down, kicks, or knees for that matter become far less worrying, until you back off into the range that your LSJC is less effective, ie a normal kicking distance.

Regarding telegraphing kicks, I agree with Yuan fen, the way to minimize this is by moving forward. When you punch, the optimum solution is to drive from the hips and legs so you utilize your bodyweight. In the same way, when you kick, it is the non-kicking leg that provides as much power, by thrusting forward. So you dont think so much of shifting weight onto the left leg before you can kick with the right, more like thrust off the left leg to kick with the right. Remember, I dont want to trade kicks with a kicker, I want to use the kick to bridge and move forward into my finishing range ASAP.

When you learn this, you can kick from YJKYM just as well as from a moving stance, and from 50/50 just as well as from 0/100, whilst still minimizing the telegraphing.

I guess the point is that there is nothing that 0/100 does that automatically gives it the advantage over 50/50. So I prefer to remain as much as possible in 50/50 so I have the increased mobility to move in whichever direction I need to. If you can make 0/100 work for you, then fair enough.

[yuanfen]

Yuanfen,

How is that possible without compromising (shifting) your stance?
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In a bit of a hurry for work. I am not being argumentative or trying to prolong the thread. But since you asked- Steve Elaimy in
your backyard was ina couple of my university classes and he came to my home group briefly- before he had to move to Seattle, great guy. Being in Seattle he now does it your way- but he may or may not remember and or noticed some things.You may ask him.
1. there are little differences in the forms of several lineages. Each has its assets and possible liabilities in differing areas. My knees are not as sunk as yours in ygkym. But in any lineage--long time kung fu builds up different skills. i dont know how long you have been at it.
2. I and any of my experienced brothers and sisters can just kick with either foot from ygkym without leaning back. Same for front leg or back leg kicking while turning or stepping. Our ygkym and chum kiu(your and mine) has some micro differences on the role of the knees.
3. I dont significantly lift up my leg or **** it or chamber it before
kicking. If I am going to kick you in the stomach- visualize just stepping on to your stomach- but with wing chun joint power.
As though I am going to walk on you.

I dont preach- i dont tell you- you are wrong! Your choice.Just sharing.
Yuanfen(Joy Chaudhuri)

[Frank Exchange]

I would hope that no one would significantly **** their own leg when they... oh.

Just realised what the censored word was. :)

[red5angel]

Yuanfen, I will see your boloney and raise you a salami! You can get around the 50/50 need to shift back by stepping forward but what happens if you dont want to go forward, or cant? Well, in a 50/50 stance you fall over, which would probably be good for those practicing grappling to supplement thier wingchun ;) but not for me, or you shift back.......
Not only that but often for you to kick and move forward it becomes telegraphed. I will go along with the "crowd" by saying if you are a super-duper-kicking machine then you might be able to pull it off with little of those tale-tell signs but with your average WC practitioner it ain't happening.
On top of all that, if I am sensitive enough, I can attack that 50% front leg and it gives me all the resistance I need with its weight bearing, to do some damage........

[sunkuen]

I bet the 0/100 guy's also believe that 100/0 guy's get their legs swept.......(in kiddy terms for you red , thats all the weight on the front leg)

[red5angel]

no sunkuen but if you have all your wieght on the front leg, obviously your hind leg is flexible and ready. As for sweeping, it would be hard to sweep a leg faster then a 0/100 person would be able to shift slightly back.

[sunkuen]

the 0/100 guy is already half way to the floor!!! I sweep out legs from guy's in pretty much every class!!!

[Frank Exchange]

Red5angel

>> You can get around the 50/50 need to shift back by stepping forward but what happens if you dont want to go forward, or cant? <<

I always want to go forward when I kick. Why wouldnt I be able to go forward?

In my 50/50 based style we train deliberately to not telegraph by thrusting off the back leg, and not c0cking the kicking leg at all. The foot travels straight from the floor to the target. You may not be able to appreciate it, having not studied this way, but it works, and if you train it a lot, it works well.

>> Not only that but often for you to kick and move forward it becomes telegraphed. <<

No, it doesnt. When you learn how to do it effectively.

>> On top of all that, if I am sensitive enough, I can attack that 50% front leg and it gives me all the resistance I need with its weight bearing, to do some damage........ <<

If you are at the range where you can kick me, I wont necessarily have a front leg, I will more likely be square on so I can move in which ever direction I require.

Plus, the same argument can be applied to your 100% weight bearing leg, but even more so, because once your only means of support is gone, your root has totally gone. I attack the 100% back leg and "it gives me all the resistance I need with its weight bearing, to do some damage.."
So, in fact, it could be argued that this reliance on one leg makes you even more vulnerable.

[sunkuen]

I think the 0\100 guy's like ending up on their backsides!!!

[hunt1]

RED5-having read your posts in this line the problem you are having with 50/50 vs back leg weight and kicking is simple.You dont understand how to kick! You do not ever never ever never lean back in any way shape or form(tiger tail/side kick can be exception depending on how you use it).You sink into the non kicking leg you do not lean whether 50/50 or 0/100.and isnt all kicking 0/100?


Rene-thanks I had heard that some use the front stance.Do they root the front leg like a chen taichi player? which I feel is really the back leg in transition. I have seen the knife form you speak of I believe that comes from a personal interpretation and maybe to much Bruce Lee/fencing/sword influence;)

[red5angel]

Frank Exchange, I have worked with both types of stances and find the 100/0 much more comfortable, and atleast for me it was pretty much intuitive.
Of course you almost always want to go forward, but not all of the time. With 100/0 you have the option.
The argument only works for 100/0 if you decide to ignore the arms and other leg that is in your way to get to the back leg. Of course there is the posibility you can slip around me but again, that is an eventuality you train for as well.

[Frank Exchange]

Hey, if it works well for you, then great. There are pros and cons to each approach, but for me the 50/50 pros far outweigh the cons. In fact, I have not seen a solid "con" yet.

Can you think of a situation where you would not want to go forward when you kick?

[red5angel]

Cant think of a reason for not wanting to go forward at the moment, but how about when you cant?

[fa_jing]

I just think that if you have weight on one leg and you kick with that same leg, you root on the other leg AS you pick up your foot from the floor and kick. Not first you shift weight, then you kick. We do coc.k a little sometimes to increase power, some may not. But the point is it's all one motion and just as fast as a kick off of a 0-weighted leg. Incidentally, a 0/100 person must shift his weight too, he must shift it forward so as to drive forward the kick. You are rooted through the other leg (your connection to the ground) but your weight isn't directly over it, you'd push yourself backwards, you have some momentum forward and if you whiff on the kick you it would turn into a step forward. You should never whiff on a kick, BTW, this isn't TKD, we don't use our kicks as feelers. Anyway, most of my kicks are done off of the exchange step like we are taught in the kicking section of Chum Kiu, to which the above discussion doesn't really apply, except that we actually strive to create forward momentum here.
P.S. We train 60-40 back/front. But my Sifu emphasizes that your weight is constantly shifting, and we have some advancing WC footwork drills that really teach you how to step with your hand techniques.

[red5angel]

Fa_jing - right you are but to do that you still have to shift, whether your leg is coming up at the same time is irrelevant if it still takes more time and more energy, even a little bit more.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by red5angel
Not only that but often for you to kick and move forward it becomes telegraphed. Telegraphing is not a positioning issue, but a body synergism issue.

[red5angel]

Enterthe Whip - I think I see what you are getting at, can you explain a little bit so I can make sure I am understanding you?

[EnterTheWhip]

You tell me what you think you understand, and I'll let you know if you're right.

[red5angel]

By body synergy I imagine you mean the control and timing you get with practice, or body unity as I call it. If I get you right you are saying that with this, it all moves as one and there is no need for shifting, or better yet, that the shifting as well as the kick are all in one and so no telegraphing?
Thats the short version anyway.......

[old jong]

No 0/100 or 50/50 things are absolute.When you have to move,angle,step,whatever,you have to shift your weight and there is always some tiny little moment when you can't use a leg in offense or defense...Unless you just stand there with a empty leg ,waiting to intercept,kick or get a good one in your supporting leg!

Everybody is 0/100 at some moment and 50/50 at some other. we all even are 27/73 sometimes! Why?...Because we move around in real life and we have to be active in Wing Chun and not only reactive as a one leg rigid stance or weight distribution would force us to be. It is easy to do that in stationary chi sau when just standing there but try this moving around!...

Honestly, I know that I have to shift my 50/50 base to something else to move or do many things as I had to alter my 0/100 stance I used before for the same reasons.Saying otherwise is just plain nonsense.