Taekwondo-Take on this do? (disliking)

[Former castleva]

Why does it seem so many are putting down taekwondo? Or is it just my...
This can often be seen at forums.I even remember a topic named "Is taekwondo any good?".
That was a different site though,but that´s about that.
I´ve got the idea that it somehow is not practical (which is not my own idea though)
So is it the case of olympic or traditional? Or is that completely a sidenote? Is it the high kicks? Or maybe something else?

It would be fancy if you would not say it is "watered down",but rather something else,anything is appreciated though.


:)

[Liokault]

I for 1 think TKD is a great martial art.

This may be because we have lots of very good TKD teachers in Oxford.

One of my class mates and my main sparring partner is a TKD 2nd dan. He trained in a very hard club with a very good teacher from the age of 12 and now is very good and very very fast.

His kicks and straight punches and quite amazing and really hard to deal with.

He is also doing very well in san shou against kung fu guys and kick boxers.

I am not sure of the type of TKD in oxford (i think it may be olympic) but their seams to be a great deal of full contact sparring going on.

I feel the disregard for TKD on this forum may be due to the target audiance in the USA for TKD being childeren and people with to much money.




Also on a total tangent I heard of a fight involving a very good TKD teacher here in Oxford (Orello Ellis)

It apears that 4 guys took a dislikeing to him so went round to his house with a base ball bat.

One guy swung the bat at Mr Ellis whice he blocked....breaking his arm.......but he then went on to beat the 4 guys to a pulp with out the use of his arm.


I obviously was not there at the time but Oxford is a small town and I know lots of students of Mr Ellis.

[SevenStar]

I have a lot of respect for good tkd, but here are some of the reasons the style catches alot of flak:

1. over commercialism
2. the flashy kicks
3. lack of hand techs (olympic and ata styles)
4. the cammoflauge belt given in ata styles.
5. obsurd techs, like the "statue of liberty axe kick"
6. being able to progess from white to black - which consists of about 6 - 10 ranks, depending on the school) in 2 years

[chen zhen]

I don't really know if it can be called "traditional," since it's less than 50 years old.

[Lisa]

I had a bad experience with taekwon do. I took it for about a year when I was about 11 years old. I didn't learn much that would help me in a real life situation, aside from getting me in better physical shape. The stuff I learned there was all for tournaments (ie: "this is an effective technique because it's worth 2 points").

This was just my experience with that particular school, but if that's common among taekwon do schools I can understand it's reputation.

Lisa

[The Willow Sword]

Trains for the tournament,,NOT the street. i have NEVER seen someone with TKD training excel at anything other than good tournamnet point skills. TKD is VERY americanized and sportified as is alot of other martial arts out there (ie: judo, karate etc.) go to MCdojo.com and download the Muy Thai against TKD fight. you will see what i am talking about.
Many Respects,,The Willow Sword www.mcdojo.com

[Former castleva]

Thanks for your noble replies.
I think I´ve heard something similar to that americanized TKD directed towards children etc.
Nice to hear though that it had worked for that one teacher.
I´ve also wondered occasionally why it is so easy to gain a "high" level in TKD.Couple of years for a black belt,yep,I´ve heard the same.
Of course one should understand that precious 1.dan is not the end,it´s more like a sign of that you have the basics down.
There is a sad story about a TKD man with 7th.dan in his art.
One ugly day he got into a situation with a couple of average thugs,at least another them had a broken bottle...
TKD expert was killed:( .I think this event took place in USA.
This does not naturally prove that the art would be bad.As previously recognized,could give bad reputation though.

[truewrestler]

Muay Thai vs Tae Kwon Do

http://www.mcdojo.com/dl_goto.asp?id=5

[SevenStar]

TWS, it's no more americanized than CMA is nowadays. You just have yet to meet someone who could use their TKD training for the street...I have. Funny thing is, he trained olympic style. He's an example of what can be acheived with dedication and hard work. And sport judo will dump you on your ass just as fast as shuai chiao will.

"TKD expert was killed .I think this event took place in USA.
This does not naturally prove that the art would be bad.As previously recognized,could give bad reputation though."

this happens all the time, to people of all styles. I agree, it definitely takes credibility away from the martial arts. It should also serve as an eye opener though. make people realize that something needs to be corrected...

[greendragon]

Here in the US it exemplifies "McDojo", the most commercial of all franchise dojos. If you pay the $ you get a "temporary" blackbelt right off. As far as the "art", it emphasizes high kicking with max points given for a headshot. with these high kicks they come up on their toes, hence being called "ballerinas", no power in this type of technique. I don't think anyone would dis-agree that a high kick on the street would be a mistake. And after that roundhouse kick why do they think we don't know it will be followed by a reverse roundhouse ? Lame stuff.

[truewrestler]

high kicks have their place, but when an art is based on high and spinning kicks it isn't practical in my opinion

[SevenStar]

I agree, the high kicking can be a mistake in a fight, but that depends on the artist. you have to remember that a high level olymic tkd guy most likey has speed, agility and timing that is far beyond yours. also, he's used to counter fighting, so he knows how and when to throw his techniques.

it's no different than high level internalists that insist on using pressure points and chin na. If you have the skill and timing to make it work for you, then go for it. If not, stick to what you know you can make work.

[The Willow Sword]

i dont doubt the effectiveness of tae kwon do in its original and traditional format (hwarang) but lets face it. TKD trains for the tournament. the moment that leg goes up any higher than the waist he is either going to get grappled and taken down OR as you have no doubt seen the video truewrestler posted. CMA has been americanized as well and i agree with you on that. i just feel that if you are interested in training for personal self defense you take something that is serious, if you are interested in going to tournaments and winning trophies and such(nothing wrong with that) dont be suprised when you utilize your tournament skills on a FIGHTER you dont get the results you wanted.
its all hollywood until it gets real sevenstar.

Many Respects,,The Willow Sword

[Black Jack]

I am kind of curious as to what "americanized" means?

[dezhen2001]

I have respect for any MA, and anyone who trains hard to achieve their particular goals... no matter what style or where it came from.

Sure TKD has many competitions which have rules and things... but they are good at what they do. In a real fight sometimes u win, sometimes u lose. It doesn't matter if you're Bruce Lee, trained in 'real self defence', traditional kung fu, MMA or whatever - if someone sneeks up and hits u with a bottle from behind it's generally lights out :)

Many systems who have some form of full and/or semi contact training/competitions have rules for safety and other things. It allows people to test their skill and develop it. As well as have a good time. So what's the big deal? They are good at what they do, people enjoy training and it develops health. Also things like distance, timing, awarness etc. which helps in a real situation. Doesn't guarantee anything, but something is better than nothing. What would happen if a boxer clinched with a muay thai guy... obvious - differernt rules and limitations. What if the boxer was against a grappler... again different limitations. The boxer may get taken down, or he may hit the guy on the chin and it's lights out. So it's win some lose some, no matter what you train.

Of course my wing chun is much different to TKD and i have my own thoughts on what is better for 'real life' etc. but so what? i respect them for their skill in what they do :)

david

[The Willow Sword]

a fight HAS NO RULES. you bog yuourself down in rules and ettiquette eventually it is going to cross over into the life/death situation and guess who is going to win? the guy who doesnt give a sh!t whether or not you die.

Black jack: not to down the term "americanized" but it seems that when you look at training regimens in other countries you find a more uninhibited way of training, not all of the time but most of the time. from what previous teachers i have had the opportunity to talk to who HAVE trained abroad they find that the seriousness and level which they train far exceeds ours.. we are a country of glitz and glam and if we break a nail or get a paper cut we squeal like babies. with the exception of some MMA schools that i have looked at and from what i have viewed on UFC fights most schools you run into these days focus more on the
glam, and the image.

Many Respects,,The Willow Sword

[dezhen2001]

Willow Sword: thanks for that :) I am actually aware of what happens in a real fight, and do know that the person who doesn't give a fu(k is the one that usually wins... especially if he studies modern self defence (glock fu do). So why bother with even empty hand training?
I'm not so paraniod that something will happen to me that i need to worry about it, and i'm sure many other people are the same. So they train in MA that have some competitive element so that they get to develop and understand their skill. Also it's fun, for health etc. not battle fields! :D If someone attacks me, then i will either prevail or not. so what?... sh|t happens...

There are many places people can go to learn about 'real self defence' and learn many great things. But like i said, if you get surrounded by a street gang with knives and guns, or hit form behind or whatever can happen, then ur generally gonna be screwed either way... not much u can do about it. Everything is fallable, even self protection training.

People train things for different reasons, theres enough room for everybody. Some people can fight (even wothout MA training), other people can't and never will...

david

[Black Jack]

WillowSword,

I will have to disagree, pikers are pikers are pikers, it does not matter from which country one trains in, or in what system, be that system old style savate or hop gar, people who want to be inhibited by ritual or spend there time in a adult day care, or be sold a bill of goods to boost there confidence are a dime a dozen, its all about heart and honesty about what you as a student wants from that training.

IMHO America and its great collection of ethinc streams are what give the American citizen the ability to be "uninhibited" in its martial training, more so than any other country on earth, its been so since day one, since fronitersmen from many different nations marched out onto the wild front or those immigrents that sought to carve out a life for themselves and there families in a unkown and often hostle city or a war where farmer milita fought for there independence, the need for a person to learn how to surivive became a guiding factor and being inhibted was not a part of that struggle, meaning use what works, be that techniques for planting crops or techniques for sharp shooting british troops.

If anything I would call tkd koreanized, from what I understand cma is not the number one martial art in china, it is tkd and karate, its all about marketing and business on the consumer marketplace and that does not change where you go.

At its grassroots heart I do not see our country as glitz and glam, when united I see our country as a group of tough mother f@ckers with all sorts of skin colors and backgrounds that are anything but glitz and glamour, who when the chips have been placed down have always come out ready to bust heads and get bloody.

Take a look at our countries growth, our wars and battles, the human spirit is all there, everything from the Golden Gate Bridge to the WTC towers, from Iwo Jima to Kandahar. If one finds themselves not meeting enough Americans who have a bit of heart under there skin than they are not meeting true Americans, maybe they are meeting the Frence.

[neito]

i took tkd for 3 years and only really learned one offensive technique(roundhouse kick). i got pretty good at it though and could land it anywhere from ankle to chest height, and to the head if i was really lucky. due mainly to sore feet i started using my shin as well as my insteps to strike with. thus, i could strike at a closer range since i am more of a "blitzer" than a "sniper". because tkd did not really suit me well i eventually quit, but i can still blast off one of those roundhouse kicks, even in the clinch(in this case in looks kinda like a muay thai cut kick). what i'm saying is that tkd allows one to develope some pretty good skills, even if its not a complete art.

[Gigante]

Originally posted by truewrestler
Muay Thai vs Tae Kwon Do

http://www.mcdojo.com/dl_goto.asp?id=5

What is this supposed to prove? I think it showed that the TKD guy sucked. I think the MT guy sucked as well, but that's not my point. The TKD teacher I first trained for would whoop both their asses. He is incredibly fast. He does a "pande-shagi" (hmm back-spinning roundhouse kick?) faster than I can blink my eye. It completely blew me away every time. He later went on to become the swedish champion and is currently training our OS team.

It's not the style, it's the person.

That said, TKD could benefit from some low kicks and more hand techniques... and some groundfighting.. :)

[rogue]

If you pay the $ you get a "temporary" blackbelt right off. Please name the school, I've yet to witness this happening.

As the resident TKDope I've visited several kwan. I used to laugh at the WTF guys until I got to spar several, and they can be scary. They are not point fighting floppy footed kickers. Their goal is to either knock out their head gear wearing opponent or at least deliver a helluva punch or kick through their opponents torso padding. Want to feel a kick that can do that? I did and the guy was being nice to me.

It is sad from the perspective of a martial artist that their school caters mostly to children, but when you're the owner and you have bills to pay those kids are mighty handy. Do I like it? No, but it's the way things are.

I can't speak for the WTF or ATA guys but ITF TKD if trained properly is just fine on the street. It has long range, mid range, short range strikes and kicks, a few take downs, attacks to the same targets that most CMA use and even has ground fighting (though not ground grappling in the modern sense). I even came across the same technique that I learned in BJJ class against a rear bear hug. How many American schools have I come across that teach the syllabus that General Choi layed out? Very few, though I know others are out there.

BTW Anybody catch the Shidokan on ESPN2 on Friday, seen a lot of axe kicks, even spinning back kicks used by the two finalists.

[rogue]

a fight HAS NO RULES. you bog yuourself down in rules and ettiquette eventually it is going to cross over into the life/death situation ... Having played enough gigs in hell holes, spending too much time in strip bars and even having visited some biker bars the one thing I can say is that they all had rules and ettiquette that you followed if you didn't want to get stomped. The places that had the least rules and most fights were usually where the least dangerous hung out, mostly punk kids trying to live like a thug. Being able to recognize rules and ettiquette and having the humility and smarts to follow them is a major part of surviving the day be you stock broker or biker.


...and guess who is going to win? the guy who doesnt give a sh!t whether or not you die. Oh please.:rolleyes:

[Felipe Bido]

The last Vale Tudo competition of 2001 in RD was won by a TKD stylist. The guy trained his ass off, and won...

Hard Training=perfection

[JusticeZero]

Originally posted by Black Jack
I am kind of curious as to what "americanized" means?

Stripped of everything that doesn't make sense to an untrained observer without explanation, reduced to the level of sport, chopped down further to the form that can make the maximum amount of money in the minimum time, then given egotistical, tacky flourishes.

[Liokault]

Black Jack your post makes me glad to be American.......How are the fat guys doing sueing MacDonalds BTW?

dezhen2001 I have seen my friend the TKD guy spar against a wing chun bloke....it was the one of the most amuseing things I have seen in a class.

This Wing Chun guy walks in at the start of a class and anounces to my teacher that he is about to start his own wing chun class and that his teacher has now alowed him to explore other styles to round his art out. Now as the class progresses it becomes clear that he has no intention of rounding his class out .....he will not do anything differant to the way he has been taught for X years. To top it all off he is a really arogant guy.


So my teacher askes him if he wants to spar. Now we always spar full contact and when we spar with new guys the level of agression tends to depend on how much we want them to come back next week....so its anythging gose for this guy and he is made aware of this.


Normaly my teacher would ask me to spar with this guy but we have jusy got this very good TKD guy who likes to spar full contact so he askes him to spar first.



Ok the Wing Chun guy is very fit looking, young and has about 2 inches on the TKD guy.


So the sparring starts with the Winc chun guy in what i assume to be a traditional stance and the TKD guy in a loose informal stance.

Sparring gose like this.

TKD guy comes in with lots of fast kicks...wing chun guy deals with the kicks by absorbing them into his torso and thighs.

Wing chun guy tryes to do what looks like a chain punch.....TKD guy ignores it and just (reverse) punches him in the face.

ok lots of the above till this happens

TKD guy is getting boared so (I think its a) spinning back kick straight to the Wing Chun guys gut.....Wing chun guy falls over wriths around on the floor making the weirdest sound I have ever heard a human being make. He recovers after about 15 minuets and we never see him again.

[dezhen2001]

Liokault: good post! a funny story as well :D

TKD, like any other martial art can be good, or can really suck. So i don't see why people are making generalizations like that about the art.
Like i said, what we do in wing chun is different, but TKD are great at what they do. I have no problems with them (and have had my ass kicked many times fighting full contact when i did karate by some TKD guys :D). I respect anyone who trains hard in whatever they do, martial arts, sports anything... :)

david

[Liokault]

I was not trying to put wing chun down ....just trying to put TKD into perspective.

Like I sais I think that we have very good TKD in Oxford.

[wushu chik]

I have known too many KIDS in TKD that have their BLACK BELT (not Junior) that can't defend themselves out of simple armbars, bear hugs, etc. It's sad. That's why I think TKD sucks for the most part. Some of their kicks are cool (but hey, so are Wushu's) & GOOD TKD is awesome!

Just thought I would add that!!

~Wen~

[dezhen2001]

good point wen! so already we have a wide spectrum of difference for just TKD alone... what about all the other MA, and even CMA...?

david

[Black Jack]

Pleaze......this coming from a guy who lives in a country where you have no way to defend yourself from anything.

How is that drastically rising crime rate working out for you over there?