This worries me

[Ryu]

By Monica Polanco

AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF

Tuesday, July 23, 2002

GEORGETOWN -- Brandon Threet, convicted of manslaughter with a deadly weapon in the fatal beating of another teen at a party last year, was sentenced Monday to 20 years in prison and fined $10,000.

Jurors deliberated for two hours before handing Threet, 19, the maximum punishment for beating Terence McArdle on Oct. 7 in Anderson Mill. McArdle, an 18-year-old University of Texas student, died a week later of massive head injuries.

"The jury understood that this was not a fight, no matter how many times the defendant called it a fight," Williamson County District Attorney John Bradley said. "By giving the maximum, they understood the defendant had no excuse for what he did."

Threet will be required to serve half his sentence before being eligible for parole because of the deadly weapon finding, which means he used his hands and foot as a deadly weapon in beating McArdle.

...

During the five-day trial, jurors learned that Threet became upset at the party after McArdle, wearing a pair of ski goggles that he found in the house, did a back flip in the host's living room, knocking over a framed picture.

Threet took the goggles off McArdle, shoved him to the floor and asked him several times to trade punches for the right to wear the goggles. McArdle, a nine-year student of tae kwon do, declined three times but agreed after Threet -- then a student at the University of Texas at San Antonio -- persisted.

Bradley played the key piece of evidence, a videotape capturing the fatal encounter, several times. The tape shows a smiling McArdle indicating that he would strike Threet in the chest and following through with a punch. Threet then hits McArdle in the face and strikes him two to three more times after he falls to the ground. Threet then kicks him in the head.

...

http://www.austin360.com/statesman/editions/today/metro_state_1.html


The reason it worries me?
Because I "train" to fight the way the perpetrator fought..... first strike, keep the pressure on, take it to the ground, ground and pound, kick the head, etc. I've basically ingrained it into my muscle memory.
Obviously I am decent at grappling, pins, and submissions too, and I roll a lot as well, but I don't want to "roll" with a huge guy who happened to spend 6 years in college as a national wrestler in a street fight...

The question that comes to mind here is...... How does one know what is the right amount of force to use in a fight?

If someone is bigger, stronger, meaner, then me ....... but is unarmed..... do I HAVE to try my luck out punching or out grappling him? (What if he's an ex kickboxer or a veteran wrestling champion? What if he's better at grappling and punching then I am?) Sometimes no matter how much you train, you'll come across the guy who is just simply "better" then you.
Do I have to fight fair? Is it legal anymore to cheat? Can I shoot him? Spray his eyes with OC? Pull a knife when he doesn't see it?

I know the law obviously... but I suppose I just ask this question because I want to know.... HOW REALISTIC IS IT TO BE ABLE TO JUDGE CORRECTLY WHAT YOUR OPPONENTS SKILL LEVEL IS DURING A FIGHT?
It's possible of course to get into a fight with someone smaller and automatically "feel" that he's no match for you. Hell I've done that, and of course I didn't hurt the guy unnecessarily. But if some huge strong guy gets in your face and says he's going to kill you....... and you hit him first, knock him down, and kick him in the head a few times to make sure he STAYS down.... is it his fault or yours?
What if I knock him down, and STOP the assault because I want to be "legal." But it turns out I simply got a lucky shot, and he gets up and beats me to death? What if those kicks to the downed opponent WOULD have saved my life???

How realistic are the laws about self-defense? What do you guys think? What's your experiences?

Just thinking.....because even though I train hard, spar, grapple, etc. I know I'm not the best..... If I come up against someone who wants to fight me and I KNOW there's no way I can beat him unarmed...... I'll choose surviving over getting mauled. So I don't care if he's unarmed, etc. ..... I'll stab him, shoot him, etc.
Anything I can to keep him from beating the hell out of me.
Am I wrong?

Kind of venting...... anyway give me your opinions.

Ryu

[SevenStar]

that's a very valid concern. I would say, better safe than sorry...I too would rather survive than get mauled. It's kind of sad when the law limits your right to defend yourself.

[Lisa]

If I felt I was in any real danger, I wouldn't be too worried about how much the other guy was hurt. But in that particular case, he wasn't in any danger. He was just picking a fight with some guy who ****ed him off, and I think beating him to death was just a little excessive.

[Ryu]

Hi Lisa,
I completely agree that the perpetrator in the story was way excessive. But what if the "victim" of the story had been twice as big as him, etc. How much does "reasonable fear" of someone justify how far you go to protect yourself? And of course.... what if it turned out that the guy "twice as big" as he was had never been in a fight before.... honor student, etc.

How much does the court turn that around? Do they believe in Jacky Chan movies? Or are they knowledable about real combat?

If a "martial artist" gets into a fight..... do they expect him to be able to flip over him and do a standing wrist lock while explaining he doesn't want to fight?? (completely unrealistic..)

Or do they expect him to (just like anyone else) do what he has to in order to defend himself?


Just more questions ...... I guess I am ranting a little :)

Ryu

[Leonidas]

The POINT is that it still wasn't a fight. The defendant lied to the the other kid to give him a false sense of security like it was all fun and games, effectively leaving him off to guard to any real attacks and the defen-dant took advantage of that opportunity and beat the guy to death.

You have nothing to worry about if its a genuine fight and as long as you dont kill someone unless he's absolutely trying to kill you.

[dnc101]

Ryu, this story as well as some others have recently raised the issue of where do we legaly stand as martial artists. I've been recomending a book, 'The Law And Martial Arts, by Carl Brown', which gives a good idea of the way the courts treat this issue. You'd like him right off, as he's a Judoka. He's also a trial attorney.

Basically, I'm giving you the same advice here that you gave me concerning grappling: the time to prepare to defend yourself , on the ground or in court, is before the event. (By the way, I almost won a grappling 'match' the other day- which is better than I usually do). Any how, there is a lot of disinformation and misconception as to the law. This is particularly true with the law and a trained fighter. This book dispells a lot of the myth and brings up a lot of points the average person never considers.

As to some of the things you were concerned about: the relative size, health, and skill levels of the two would be considered. Hands and feet are not generally considered lethal weapons unless used as such- training and conditioning would be factors. If you had reason to be concerned for your safety, you could probably act to insure he was subdued. You could even launch a preemptive strike under some circumstances. If you continue to attack after he's clearly subdued, that is an assault on your part. In sport there is the issue of consent- you both agreed to beat the crap out of each other. But here, the fight was illegal, therefore there is no issue of consent even had both parties agreed. However, since the victim did not agree, there was clearly an assault. In fact, once the victim backed away the assailant lost any claim to concern or fear, no matter how much the other guy knew. Further, the guy continued to beat the victim after he was down. I have no problem with the finding or the maximum sentence in this case.

Now the disclaimer- I'm not a lawyer. I just wanted to prove that I'd read the book. Oh, and some of the illustrations in this book remind me of some of the stuff you used to see in Bruce Tegners books.

[old jong]

I read once about a woman with a few judo lessons under her white belt who just pushed or tripped a mugger who was menacing her husband with a knife.The mugger fell bad and had a cranium fracture or something.The mugger sued her and...Won!...The juge sentenced her because he felt she used eccessive force and with her Judo "science" (white belt!) she could have controled him instead of injuring him this way!...
Looks like the instant you are training in a martial art,you becomes some kind of expert killer with the death touch and the rest.
If I was you Ryu,I would stop talking about knifes and kicking a downed person in the head or things like that. We never know, some attorney could use that against you in the case you have to defend yourself in court for defending yourself a little to hard.

[rogue]

What if he's an ex kickboxer or a veteran wrestling champion? What if he's better at grappling and punching then I am? Goodness Ryu, how do you get to sleep at night, I better not tell you about the asteroid that may or may not hit the Earth in a hundred years. Whoops, sorry. :D

If the person is down and you kick him in the head you'll probably end up being someones new girlfriend.

Look at what you wrote
first strike, keep the pressure on, take it to the ground, ground and pound, kick the head, etc. That's not self defense that's trying to destroy someone in a fight. You're exit strategy is him either brain damaged or dead. In my county you'd be up on assault charges after the taking it to the ground part. Remember the hockey dad?


Or are they knowledable about real combat? The courts don't like combat, self defense fine, a fight may be understandable, you start talking about real combat and you become the problem. You sound like someone who's looking for trouble.


How much does "reasonable fear" of someone justify how far you go to protect yourself? Remember if you're a martial artists who trains for street fighting "reasonable fear" may go out the window. The courts may look at someone who trains in Ultra Street Combatives in a different light than someone who trains in Aikido or Tai Chi.


What if he's an ex kickboxer or a veteran wrestling champion? What if he's better at grappling and punching then I am? I'm not meaning to come down on you but let's face it Ryu, from your resume you've trained to be a street fighter; not for self defense, sport, health or harmony with mankind.

On top of that you have an instructors certificate from Vu, and what does he teach? So you've upped your perceived level of responsibility for your actions even more. You just have to be more careful and avoid bad situations more than others. If you're this worried about this stuff Ryu maybe it's time to put the street combatives to rest for a while and work on the Judo.;)

[omegapoint]

Ryu: I don't think you're comprehending the story very well. Homey got stung 'cause he made a knucklehead move. That wasn't anywhere near self-defense. He tricked that TKD cat into making the first strike, then sucker punched and kicked him!

I was in a one-on-one confrontation where the guy instigated it, hounded me for days, and finally got what he deserved. I used whatever force I used (it's hard to control that stuff). The cops even asked me where the stick or whatever weapon I used was! Anyway it did go to court, but my self-defense excuse was pretty hard to beat. He was bigger than me and also trained in MMAs.

So if you get into a fight that isn't your fault, you gotta assume that the aggressor is out to maim or kill you; you better think and do the same. Later....

[No_Know]

Judging the skill of your opponent before you match~:

-Curved hands indicates that they work often with their hands

-Muscle developed between thumb and index finger indicatess they grab alot.

-Upright, shoulders back, indicates discipline instruction--military school, military, weight-lifter.

-Smoothe curve of neck to back indicates instinct fighter --animalistic, someone who commits when engaging. But also, a trickster to lull you into attacking or deceiving to catch you off guard.

-Look for muscles. Weight lifter/body builder/body sculptor types might have muscles but anyone with muscles who does not do these things per se likely trains to that level of development. The smaller, the thinner the muscles the better developed. The stronger at doing that muscle group's task.~

-Small steps indicates they can attack at any moment.

-The more they move, the less good they might be. If they are really good and would like you seriously put down~ it would be a single near merciless action. and there won't be any more worries for you.

-Talk is to weaken you. To distract you. To blind your mind. Stay alert. Doubt yourself later.

-A talker is not as skilled as skilled can be~ but they can be good enough to hurt you very well if they get your goju goroku (?).

How much damage (intensity)?:

Without comprehension of different ways, it's pot-luck. With it (enough), it's like Star Trek™. Start out on a low setting based on the presumtion of enough force to hurt them just enough to get them to rethink attacking or continuing. If no damage or seemingly not enough, judgment call cross-reference experience, Fear and Feel. Continue at same level or raise the damage setting. Keep judgement calling with the option to raise the damage setting.

As scared as you might get, theoretically, not many enough come back from Dead. Control the local environment by noting feasible tools to be used against you. Note where their hands head and go. If to body undercover, then pre-emptive do something! Because there is even the mere-est possibility they come out seen again with something you have to work at?.. you don't want that. Keep stuff away from them and them away from stuff.


Even if they want to kill you, you don't have to kill them. This is done by those with skill

[Ryu]

Thanks for the responses guys. Rogue, :D I liked yours the best because you really took it to me :D (make sense?)
You're right you know.... a "streetfighter" will never be seen in the same light as a "judoka" or whatnot.

You know it's funny. When I was younger, I really wanted to be seen as a "tough fighter" .... I used to get into fights a lot in high school, etc. When you really come down to it... being seen as a "street fighter" is probably the worst thing you can be seen as. Having a reputation of being "tough" does nothing but bring challenges your way and cause people to feel intimidated when they shouldn't...

I do want to be as well prepared as possible for the realities of self defense though.... but so much of that involves law, and the court systems. You see these guys in magazines who constantly claim "lethal streetfighting" techniques, etc. But NEVER talk about anything law and court-wise....

:( I'm not really worried about it.... but I'm not some moron who thinks fighting is good. I try to look at what I train as realistically as possible..... and part of that reality is the possibility of going to prison if I use some of that training.
(This is why I can't stand threads where people talk about how tough they are, and how they can destroy people in a fight... it's quite possible to ruin your entire life just by being in one stupid fight...)

SD is something I'm very interested in.... not just for me, but for others as well. I guess I'm just being hit hard with the realization of the responsibility I must have with my training. I knew that before obviously, but it's just coming on more strong today for some reason...

"If you're this worried about this stuff Ryu maybe it's time to put the street combatives to rest for a while and work on the Judo."
;) Maybe you're right. ....
:( But my JKD mentality is a part of who I am too.... I like discovering my martial art "self" as I go ....

In all the fights I've had....... I've never had to do what I listed above.. (i.e. ground pound, kick anyone's head, etc.) The most I've had to do is use simple ground grappling to protect myself. Never had to really hurt anyone, and I never want to. I hate hurting people... Hell if it's hard for me not to feel pain when a friend of mine crys.. I can't stand to see people in pain. I don't like it.

But the notion that I have to hold myself with more responsibility then others is probably right.

Anyway, I apologize if anything in my posts sounded violent or tough guy-ish. :( It definitely wasn't my intention.
Rogue, thanks for your post. :) I'm pretty sure I can defend myself with my grappling skills. I've done so before, and one of the reasons I enjoyed grappling so much was that it allowed me to defeat people without hitting them or hurting them. Just making them "give up" so to speak....

Anyway... that's enough for tonight. :) I need some sleep.
No_Know, and others. Thanks for your good posts too.

Ryu

[rogue]

I'm glad you took it in the intended spirit Ryu and I didn't think you were doing the tough guy thing, I wasn't mad at your post but it's something that I've also gone through lately. A friend and sometimes sensei, who's a real bad@ss (traditional karate guy) called me on all of my what if scenerios. His thing is the more I dwell on what if's of fights that will probably never happen the less I'll be ready for the unexpected that does happen. It goes against my grain but makes a weird kind of sense.


I do want to be as well prepared as possible for the realities of self defense though.... but so much of that involves law, and the court systems. You see these guys in magazines who constantly claim "lethal streetfighting" techniques, etc. But NEVER talk about anything law and court-wise.... Yeah, the fight is only the half of it, and it's also wonder if those guys are really as bad@ss as the reps they display.

[rogue]

Ryu, a timely link. (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=14942)

[S.Teebas]

Ryu, a timely link.

I thought Ryu wrote that?

[Knifefighter]

the easier it is to quit at the appropriate time. This is one reason I think it is important to compete in events such as MMA. These events mimick the psychological responses you will have if and when you have to fight "for real". These events give you a pretty good idea of when you are about to "excessively" hurt someone.

[rogue]

Good point.

Another thing that I think is dangerous is when hard sparring gets too safe. I've seen some schools that have really nice fight gear for their realistic fighting, but does that give either person the ability to judge what kind of damage that they'd do or take on the street?
I've also attended one school where chokes were taught but no one ever got choked out. To me that's an accident waiting to happen. I like the way I was taught in JJ, the instructor would choke you out first so you know how it felt, then you'd practice choking out a senior student, then you'd learn how to use the street application. It was controlled but still let you learn what the technique could do to someone.

Which do you all think is the more effective attack mentality, the reptile brain/go ape sh!t or to be more in control?

[Cipher]

I think another good thing to consider is to hold your temper and keep the anger at bay. In other words don't get so mad that you start hitting relentlessly and go too far. The hocky dad did this and it seems like to college guy did too.

Even if you are at a totaly defensive possition and you did not try to fight someone it can be easy to get mad about it and want to really hurt this jerk that is trying to hurt you. I don't know maybe I'm the only one with a temper:rolleyes: