7 Star: Exits Cave & Steals Peach

[ursa major]

I am trying to find out history on some 7 Star forms.

I have found three dominant styles within 7 Star they are Monkey (White Ape), Praying Mantis and Black Tiger. Each method has a form 'Exits Cave' and "Steals Peach'. For instance:

- Praying Mantis Exits Cave
- Praying Mantis Steals Peach

- Black Tiger Exits Cave
- Black Tiger Steals Peach

- White Ape Exits Cave
- White Ape Steals Peach

I know very little of the origins of these forms nor why the two non-Mantis systems exist within 7 Star ? I have questions like:

- what are the Monkey roots in 7 Star or Mantis ?
- what are the Black Tiger roots in 7 Star or Mantis ?
- why not a Crane or a Leopard 'Exits Cave' and 'Steals Peach' ?
- are there more of these dual forms that I don't know about ?
- are these forms original or very recent additions ?
- what does it mean to 'Step out of Cave' and 'Steal Peach' ??? Is there some translation problem here I have always had to hazard a guess when asked "what does it mean" ? Is this some kind of poetry ?

Your comments are appreciated,
UM.

[Skarbromantis]

Where did Grifters post go?????

I saw a responce last night was it deleated?

Sakrd1

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Skarbromantis
Where did Grifters post go?????

I saw a responce last night was it deleated?

Sakrd1

Not sure where it went ? Technical difficulties ? I got a message that there was a reply on this thread from grifter721 but it is obviously not here now.

UM.

[grifter721]

Steals peach= grab his babies.
Step out of the cave... Well you know what those moves are in the different forms..don't you. If you do you can take it from there trust me.
The forms you metion are not at my disposal to be telling eveyone, i dont know how SIfu will feel about that.

[Tainan Mantis]

The famous 7* PM master of PRC, Li Zhanyuan, has a form called White Ape Steals Peach.

Huang Hanhsun, famous master of HK 7* has a form called Praying Mantis Steals Peach. Undoubtedly passed on to him by Luo Guangyu.

These two forms are the same form. As far as the name is concerned only the Steals Peach(Tou Tao) part matches. There is a good reason for this and that is that this form is often called Tou Tao for short.
If there is only one Tou Tao form then it is no problem, but after more Tou Tao forms are made up confusion sets in.
Most likely, Li Zhanyuan is correct, although that is debatable.

To my knowledge the old manuscripts of PM don't include the names of any form you have mentioned except White Ape Steals Peach.

According to Ilya Profatilov this form is also found in Hao family Plum Flower PM as passed on to him.
Whether it is the same form I can not say.

Ursa Major,
About your questions...

Monkey roots in PM.
Later we can look at the text of Sheng Shao Dao Ren as well as the roots of Tong Bei to try and answer this question.

Black Tiger roots in PM
In Shandong there is a Black Tiger style of kung fu. Also the term black tiger is a PM technique in itself, such as black tiger steals the heart. This name is also listed as a PM form on Carl Albright's web site.
Later I will tie this into the plum flower series of forms in 7* PM.

Why not Crane and Leopord?
Good question. It leads us onto another question.
Why would a tiger steal a peach? and is a little PM coming out of a cave such a big deal? It surely wouldn't want to steal a peach.

The names of these forms are not very logical and were most likely coined because the White Ape Steals the Peach name sounds so good in the Chinese language. Later some new forms were created so part of an old name was borrowed.

More dual forms?
Yes I have seen a lot more than what you have listed. Most likely all recent innovations.

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by Skarbromantis
Where did Grifters post go?????

I saw a responce last night was it deleated?

Sakrd1



I deleted the reply. I am tired of seeing "I know a possible answer but I can't tell you because its a secret" replies. Either add to the thread with some info, or don't post. I know this is a little hard nosed & maybe its just because I had a bad day yesterday, but I hate this type reply with a passion.
That is where the post went.

Tainan, very nice reply BTW. Thanks for adding to the discussion.
BTL

[Mantis9]

I'm a little confused. I thought Huang Hanhsun passed down a White Ape and a Praying Mantis Steals the Peach. My lineage, Chun Chun Yee, is closely related to his and we have both forms.

Was that what you were trying to say? Or am I missing something?

Thanks for the reply.

Mantis9

[mantis108]

Seven Star has a few more influences than just mantis. Quite a few of these influences (ie White Ape, Black Tiger, etc) are both kept in their "original" form as well as presented in "Mantidized" version.

It would seem that Bai Yuan Tou Tao (White Ape Steal Peach) is in TJPM (Sun Yuen Cheung Lineage in Shangdong). However, there is no Tanglang Tou Tao (Mantis Steal Peach). To my mind this implies that Mantis Steal Peach is perhaps a 7 star adaptation only.

It is often said that Mantis Steal Peach (MSP) this is one of GM LGY's favorite set. Also the 14 Road Tan Tui, which is GM LGY's creation, seemed to be lifted right out from this form. So personally, I think that this form might provide a good perspective into looking at GM LGY's Kung Fu.

Concerning the technical part:

I have seem the MSP and have collected drawings and names of the moves in the form. So I am looking at the techniques from an outsider point of view.

The first road (including the reserved PuChan opening) seems to be techs that are designed to deal with coming back from a disadvantage (ie lost of initiation time). Basically, a cluster of fast and hard punching techs coupled with takedowns (ie Jade ring waist chop and double Mantis hooks)

Second road seems to be the formidable Yuhuan Bu/Shou (Jade ring step/hand) in 7 star flavor.

Third road seems to be the Beng Chui Bi Men Jao (crunshing punch close door kick). Here are some of steals - low kick to the groin, and the Wo Tou Chui (punch to the lower stomach) is

Four road could be where the name of the form really came form. There are the grab throat and the steal heart punch.

This form seems to deal with the infinite changing possiblities of the basic five punches of Mantis puls the Hammer fist and the Go Lu Tsai hands at the very first glance but it gets to be far more interesting as digging deeper into it. I can see the awesome applications through the methods which Tainan Mantis showed me while he was visiting me. I can certainly understand why this form is considered an advanced form by some.

Mantis108

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
The famous 7* PM master of PRC, Li Zhanyuan, has a form called White Ape Steals Peach.

Huang Hanhsun, famous master of HK 7* has a form called Praying Mantis Steals Peach. Undoubtedly passed on to him by Luo Guangyu.

These two forms are the same form. As far as the name is concerned only the Steals Peach(Tou Tao) part matches. There is a good reason for this and that is that this form is often called Tou Tao for short.
If there is only one Tou Tao form then it is no problem, but after more Tou Tao forms are made up confusion sets in.
Most likely, Li Zhanyuan is correct, although that is debatable.

To my knowledge the old manuscripts of PM don't include the names of any form you have mentioned except White Ape Steals Peach.



Thx for your reply. You have said much and I have alot of home work to do to understand this history.

About the Mantis Steals Peach vs. Monkey Steals Peach, I practice both of these forms and find they are different in length, technique, stepping patterns, combinations of steps and combinations of upper and lower body movements. In fact I have found them to be remarkable in their differences as (to my mind) they emphasis very different aspects of 7 Star Mantis.

Do I understand correctly in that history records only one original "Ape Steals Peaches" form (Li Zhanyuan) ? Then the "Mantis Steals Peaches" is from another branch of a later date (Huang Hanhsun) ?

Somewhat confused, but slowly picking it up.
UM.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by BeiTangLang
I deleted the reply. I am tired of seeing "I know a possible answer but I can't tell you because its a secret" replies. Either add to the thread with some info, or don't post. I know this is a little hard nosed & maybe its just because I had a bad day yesterday, but I hate this type reply with a passion.
That is where the post went.

Tainan, very nice reply BTW. Thanks for adding to the discussion.
BTL

I appreciate your position on this matter.

UM.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantis108
... It would seem that Bai Yuan Tou Tao (White Ape Steal Peach) is in TJPM (Sun Yuen Cheung Lineage in Shangdong).

... Second road seems to be the formidable Yuhuan Bu/Shou (Jade ring step/hand) in 7 star flavor.

Four road could be where the name of the form really came form. There are the grab throat and the steal heart punch.

This form seems to deal with the infinite changing possiblities of the basic five punches of Mantis puls the Hammer fist and the Go Lu Tsai hands ...
Mantis108

I must expose my ignorance with more questions ,

- what is TJPM ?
- what is Jade ring step/hand ?
- black tiger steals heart is this the repeated steps/methods we do in 2nd Set of Route Essence ?
- what is Go Lu Tsai hands ?

I have been taught the forms without the classic nomeclature being assigned to the steps and movements therefore am at a disadvantage in communicating with you.

I am not sure what a Go Lu Tasi hand is but probably practice it often if it is in the forms...

thx,
UM.

[Mantis9]

Mantis108.

Thank you for the reply. That sounds like MSP to me.


UM

Taiji Praying Mantis (TJPM) is a branch that began around the same time 7*. But, of course, that has been disputed. Mantis108 has a very informative web site on TJPM (maybe he could post a hyperlink.)

Jade ring step I've know to be called Monkey stance and circle entering stance.

I don't think so.

Go Lu Tsai is the first three charater principle in Wong Long 12.
IT hook grab pluck

[mantis108]

Hi Usra Major,

"I must expose my ignorance with more questions , "

I believe most of us in search of answer. Due to the lack of a well established documentation system, many of the "history" in CMA in general are mainly theorized presentations. Sometime we have to take things with a grain of salt. Like Mantis9 suggested, there are quite a bit of interesting and different information available out there. Some of them can be found on my Taiji Praying Mantis (TJPM) forum. Please feel free to visit us over there as well. :)

TJPM Forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/Taijimantis/start)

"- what is TJPM ?"

It stands for Taiji (Tai Chi) Praying Mantis. There are many lineages in TJPM out there as well. Nowadays in the USA and Canada, there exist at least 2 contingents of TJPM that I am aware of. One is Sifu Ilya Profatilov who is currently operating under the Traditional Praying Mantis banner while he's definitely TJPM (Song Zide lineage) and the other being the students of Grandmaster Chiu Chuk Kai (Sun Yuen Cheung Lineage). To distinguish the lineages, We often use CCK TCPM to indentify GM Chiu's lineage which has materials that are not commonly found in most TJPM lineage. Hope this help. :)

"- what is Jade ring step/hand ? "

According to Sifu Profatilov, this is one of the favorite techniques of GM Jiang Haulong who was a famous TJPM exponent. GM Jiang used this technique to defeat quite a few high calibur opponents. This move is a pretty interesting takedown technique. There is a thread on the TJPM forum about this technique.

"- black tiger steals heart is this the repeated steps/methods we do in 2nd Set of Route Essence ? "

In 7* 14 Road Tan Tui

Road #5 He Hu Tou Shin (Black Tiger Steal Heart).

1. Left Avoid Hardness Ready for Foe disposition (or left Bi Shr)
2. Left Hiking stance Left filing punch/upper cut
3. Left Hiking Stance right straigh punch (to the face)
4. Horse stance left steal heart punch
5. Right Forearm Chop plus Right low kick
6. Repeat to the above (right side this time)
...

BTW, Steal Heart Punch (direct punch to solar plex) is one the 8 forbidden strikes in Mantis.

"- what is Go Lu Tsai hands ?"

Hook-Grab-Pluck is the classic Mantis combo. There are quite a few ways to use it. It would seem that the Mantis Steal Peach form have some great combos to go with this hand.

"I have been taught the forms without the classic nomeclature being assigned to the steps and movements therefore am at a disadvantage in communicating with you.

I am not sure what a Go Lu Tasi hand is but probably practice it often if it is in the forms... "

I believe half the battle of learning Mantis is in the enormous amount of terminology. Almost every school has a unique way of describing the same moves. Sometime we see debate which the parties involved are actually on the same side of the fence but arguing because of confusing terminology. That's why it is a continuing effort for us to search for universal and traditional terminology for PM Kung Fu. Anyway, hope this help clarify certain things. :)

Hi Mantis9

You are most welcome. Thanks for the support, response and the suggestion. :D Really appreciate it.

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

Ilya Profatilov has, thru private e-mails, helped to confirm what I had deduced from other sources as well as add some more fascinating historical facts to the White Ape Steals Peach(Bai Yuan Tou Tao or BYTT).

Wang Yongchun learned PM from "Fast Hands" Li in the late 1880's. Generally this is considered the birth of 7* PM.
Depending on who you read there were between 2 to 6 forms taught by Li. Since those form names don't include BYTT we can conclude that this form was a creation of Wang's or he learned it somewhere else.

Wang had a friend named Hao Lianru who was a master of Plum Flower PM.
Wang taught his friend this form and so it passed on to the Hao family Plum Flower PM system.

Hao family Plum Flower PM was eventually passed on to Ma Hanqing(1920-1997), one of Ilya's teacher. GM Ma taught it as the 2nd basic form(sure would like to see his advanced stuff).

According to him the old manuscript still exists which is in his possesion as well as other masters.

This form is still practiced today in Qing Dao, Yentai and Dalian regions.

Stealing the Peach does not mean grabbing someone's privates as can easily be confirmed by looking at the old manuscript.
Peach means the opponents head, This technique is a head grabbing face smash.

HK 7*
BYTT was renamed Praying Mantis Steals the Peach. All those other forms mentioned by ursa major are most likely made up by Luo Guangyu or adaptions of forms he learned elsewhere. They are not found in old lists of PRC 7* PM forms.

So the HK 7* BYTT is not that old form we have been talking about. It was renamed Praying Mantis Steals the Peach.

[Mantis9]

Cool. Thanks for the info. This is the first time I have heard this tid bit of information ( or is that informantis? )

LGY was a great innovator to our branch of PM and added many many forms to 7* PM curriculum. Many of the sifus in the states that I have been privileged to meet or witness demonstrate descended from him, so I see a lot of variation of theme; same form, slight different flavor. I been a bit naive it that regard, thinking most PM had 'standard' form found universally within the PM continuum.

Its a great pleasure talking to those of you in this forum about our respective style.

Mantis9

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantis108

In 7* 14 Road Tan Tui

Road #5 He Hu Tou Shin (Black Tiger Steal Heart).

1. Left Avoid Hardness Ready for Foe disposition (or left Bi Shr)
2. Left Hiking stance Left filing punch/upper cut
3. Left Hiking Stance right straigh punch (to the face)
4. Horse stance left steal heart punch
5. Right Forearm Chop plus Right low kick
6. Repeat to the above (right side this time)
...

BTW, Steal Heart Punch (direct punch to solar plex) is one the 8 forbidden strikes in Mantis.

"- what is Go Lu Tsai hands ?"

Hook-Grab-Pluck is the classic Mantis combo. There are quite a few ways to use it. It would seem that the Mantis Steal Peach form have some great combos to go with this hand.

"I have been taught the forms without the classic nomeclature being assigned to the steps and movements therefore am at a disadvantage in communicating with you.

I am not sure what a Go Lu Tasi hand is but probably practice it often if it is in the forms... "

I believe half the battle of learning Mantis is in the enormous amount of terminology. Almost every school has a unique way of describing the same moves. Sometime we see debate which the parties involved are actually on the same side of the fence but arguing because of confusing terminology. That's why it is a continuing effort for us to search for universal and traditional terminology for PM Kung Fu. Anyway, hope this help clarify certain things. :)

Mantis108

Thx much for all the information.

Is TJPM the same as Tai-Chi PM ? If so I met some local TJPM people a few months back. As I understand it they are from Chiu Chuk Kai -> Kam Yuen -> Mike Vendrell lineage.... or so their literature says. Very interesting variation of forms. We did Piercing Fist side by side and were amazed at the differences in the likeness.

I think I know what jade ring step/hand is. It is a take down that can be stepped into from many positions and is in most of the forms that I practice. We practice this for example, in the Bung-Bo (Crushing Step) two man fighting set.

Hook, grab, pluck is my favourite technique of Mantis. I have been exposed in-depth to many non-Mantis systems including Kempo, Karate, Jui-Jitsu, Hung-Gar, Long Fist and White Crane (probably left a few out) and never encountered anything like this method. In fact it singularily convinced me to emphasize my PM training over everything else.

What is 14 Road Tan Tui in English ? Can you translate for me ? I may know the form but have been taught it under a different name ?

Is a 'Road' akin to a line in the form ? Eg -- a line in my terminology is to take several steps in one direction, north. When the form does a 180 degree turn in the other direction continuing now south -- would the north line be one 'Road 1' and the south line be 'Road 2' and on and on ?

I agree the terminology battle is great. I practice about 31 PM hand forms and 7 weapons forms. I have them all written down in descriptive narratives that sometimes do not make sense even to me when I read them months later ! Now that I have put an end to the learning of new Mantis forms I have to find a standardized method of naming and categorizing as well as segregating of techniques and methods. I want to do so using the classical names of forms, steps and methods and if possible be able to identify the author as well. In most cases I haven't a clue what the classical name would be or who the original author is. I have a book by Li Kam Wing The Secrets of PM Kung-fu which is very helpful but the translation suffers occasionally but it does help with things like 'filing punches', 'drilling punches', 'millstone palms', etc so I have something to work with.

thx again,
UM.

[northernJump]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Stealing the Peach does not mean grabbing someone's privates as can easily be confirmed by looking at the old manuscript.
Peach means the opponents head, This technique is a head grabbing face smash.
[/B]
OK if so where in BYTT is the head grabbing face smash ie 1st, 2nd or 3rd lines. I'm not saying you're wrong I just can't think of where there is such a move in the form I've learnt. I understood that peach is traditionally the symbol for immortality/longevity which is where the connection with peoples privates came about. For what its worth the very first move of the BYTT I've learnt is a mantis hook strike to the groin.



HK 7*
BYTT was renamed Praying Mantis Steals the Peach. All those other forms mentioned by ursa major are most likely made up by Luo Guangyu or adaptions of forms he learned elsewhere. They are not found in old lists of PRC 7* PM forms.

So the HK 7* BYTT is not that old form we have been talking about. It was renamed Praying Mantis Steals the Peach. [/B]

Are you sure of this ? We have both BYTT and Praying Mantis Steals the Peach and they are very different. My sifu's sifu was from HK so I'm assuming its the same 7* branch.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by northernJump
OK if so where in BYTT is the head grabbing face smash ie 1st, 2nd or 3rd lines. I'm not saying you're wrong I just can't think of where there is such a move in the form I've learnt. I understood that peach is traditionally the symbol for immortality/longevity which is where the connection with peoples privates came about. For what its worth the very first move of the BYTT I've learnt is a mantis hook strike to the groin.
Are you sure of this ? We have both BYTT and Praying Mantis Steals the Peach and they are very different. My sifu's sifu was from HK so I'm assuming its the same 7* branch.

Thanks for pointing this out I have some similar questions.

The versions of Mantis Steals Peach and White Ape Steals Peach that I practice both have lineage through Wong Hon Fun of HK. I did not learn these from WHF of HK although I have validated what I have learned by studying his scripts/books of same material.

The White Ape Steals Peach as I learned it and practice it -- starts with (in my terminology) left circle entering with left palm block and right inverted mantis strike to groin followed by same hand tear off of groin then standing to right long-fist punch, etc. My understanding is that this strike and tear-off is the 'Steals Peach' in the form.

Oddly enough my Mantis Steals Peach has no similar technique.
This is one of the reasons I made the original post. If Ape Steals Peach is defined by the technique as described above then how does Mantis Steals Peach derive a similar name when it does not share the 'steals peach technique' ?

Always more questions than answers.

thx in advance,
UM.

[Young Mantis]

I have been told that originally there was one form called simply "Tao Tow" (Steals Peach). I have heard that this form is sometimes referred to as "Bahk Yuen Tao Tow" (White Ape Steals Peach) in PRC China and under GM LGY's lineage as "Tong Long Tao Tow" (Mantis Steals Peach) but is the same form. There is also a separate BYTT form in the LGY lineage that seems to have been added to the curriculum at a later time.

As far as the forms go, my versions sound like everyone's accounts thus far for both BYTT and TLTT.

Ursa Major, if you are looking for the classical names for forms, I would suggest you to check out www.northernmantis.com. We list the forms we teach with the traditional Chinese characters, the Cantonese Pronunciations, and the English translations. If I remember correctly, you are a student of Sifu Phillipman Chow who is supposed to be of WHF lineage so the curriculum should be similar. I have noticed that Sifu Chow's terminology or translation of form names differs from most other translations I have seen but the Chinese names should be consistent.

YM

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Young Mantis
... Ursa Major, if you are looking for the classical names for forms, I would suggest you to check out www.northernmantis.com. We list the forms we teach with the traditional Chinese characters, the Cantonese Pronunciations, and the English translations. If I remember correctly, you are a student of Sifu Phillipman Chow who is supposed to be of WHF lineage so the curriculum should be similar. I have noticed that Sifu Chow's terminology or translation of form names differs from most other translations I have seen but the Chinese names should be consistent.
YM

Yes I agree there seems to be a terminology difference. I learned what you call Stabbing Fist as Lightning Attack. I have also heard of it as Piercing Fist. A fellow I know translated the Chinese characters for me says Piercing Fist is very close so I suppose is Stabbing Fist also. I now call the form Piercing Fist.

BTW: great web page thx for the link hopefully next time I am in NY, NY I can stop in for a visit ?

regards,
UM.

[Hau Tien]

Young Mantis,

That's a very nice site... one of the better ones I've seen out there for our style. My only complaint would be that they show Bung Bo on there... every PM site does;) Why not Daw Gong or (as this thread is about) Tow Toe?:)

Also... out of all the crap that's been posted on this forum lately, it certainly is nice to see a well discussed, well thought out thread for once!


Thanks to you guys for putting out a decent thread!

[mantis108]

"Thx much for all the information."

You are most welcome, my friend.

"Is TJPM the same as Tai-Chi PM ? If so I met some local TJPM people a few months back. As I understand it they are from Chiu Chuk Kai -> Kam Yuen -> Mike Vendrell lineage.... or so their literature says. Very interesting variation of forms. We did Piercing Fist side by side and were amazed at the differences in the likeness. "

Although Kam Yuen is active in the CCK TCPM circle, he has a rather Northern Shaolin (?) background and I believe 7* PM as well. Piercing Fist, which is Wong YongShan's creation (?), is not a TJPM form. That was part of the confusion when the Tai Mantis association started in the USA. People thought that it's the TJPM/TCPM style as it was taught by Sigung Chiu. This has recently been clarified.

"I think I know what jade ring step/hand is. It is a take down that can be stepped into from many positions and is in most of the forms that I practice. We practice this for example, in the Bung-Bo (Crushing Step) two man fighting set. "

Thanks for the info. Very interesting. :)

"Hook, grab, pluck is my favourite technique of Mantis. I have been exposed in-depth to many non-Mantis systems including Kempo, Karate, Jui-Jitsu, Hung-Gar, Long Fist and White Crane (probably left a few out) and never encountered anything like this method. In fact it singularily convinced me to emphasize my PM training over everything else. "

Yes to the signature hands of PM. :)

"What is 14 Road Tan Tui in English ? Can you translate for me ? I may know the form but have been taught it under a different name ? "

14 Roads of Springing Leg/kick. It's the creation of GM LGY. It's the short line drill type of exercise. In certain ways, it's similar in concept to CCK TCPM Sau Fa and the Muslin art Tan Tui.

Is a 'Road' akin to a line in the form ? Eg -- a line in my terminology is to take several steps in one direction, north. When the form does a 180 degree turn in the other direction continuing now south -- would the north line be one 'Road 1' and the south line be 'Road 2' and on and on ?

Yes, there's a road. But sometimes in the name of the form it has the word Road (in Chinese). In that case, it means section or routine. (ie Bai Yuen Tou Tao Yi Lu - First section/routine of White Ape Steal Peach). BTW, to my knowledge there are 2 sections of BYTT. About 5 - 6 roads for the first section and 3 roads for the second section. I believe the openning of the 2nd section is the Mantis Hook to the groin.

"I agree the terminology battle is great. I practice about 31 PM hand forms and 7 weapons forms. I have them all written down in descriptive narratives that sometimes do not make sense even to me when I read them months later ! Now that I have put an end to the learning of new Mantis forms I have to find a standardized method of naming and categorizing as well as segregating of techniques and methods. I want to do so using the classical names of forms, steps and methods and if possible be able to identify the author as well. In most cases I haven't a clue what the classical name would be or who the original author is. I have a book by Li Kam Wing The Secrets of PM Kung-fu which is very helpful but the translation suffers occasionally but it does help with things like 'filing punches', 'drilling punches', 'millstone palms', etc so I have something to work with.

thx again, "

Thanks for sharing your experience. :) Hope you will bring up more interesting thread such as this one.

Mantis108

[BeiTangLang]

While it is not my site, I would guess the reason to be that Bung Bo is a relatively consistant (or should be) form throughout all of mantis. The easiest way to benchmark several systems/families is to compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges. Another reason would be, even though it is not meant to be instructional for a novice, someone may try to learn a form through pictures rather than instruction & claim the form to be of a linneage they are not titled to.
As I said, these are just guesses; but the content makes sense to me. Once again, a well made site.
~BTL

[mantis108]

OK if so where in BYTT is the head grabbing face smash ie 1st, 2nd or 3rd lines. I'm not saying you're wrong I just can't think of where there is such a move in the form I've learnt. I understood that peach is traditionally the symbol for immortality/longevity which is where the connection with peoples privates came about. For what its worth the very first move of the BYTT I've learnt is a mantis hook strike to the groin.

Very good info and question. :)

I think I will leave the head smash explanation to Tainan. Conceptually the peach represent immortality/longevity; therefore, any techniques that you do to cut short the life (steal the longevity) of the opponent can be understood as stealing the peach. Incidently, most of the traditional name for grabing the groin (at in TJPM traditions) is called Chui Bao (taking the treasure) or Lao Yue (scooping the moon). Whether you smash the guy's head (breaking his neck), grabbing his throat (smashing the adam's apple), punch to his solar plex or grab/smash his family jewel, it's all the same cutting his life short (steal peach). Sifu Profatilov properly have the old manuscript than has the head smashing move named as such or his teacher had indicated to him in person? Anyway, I am all for variations or so-called hidden applications.

I believe the old manuscript (quanpu) used poetic and descriptive names to convey key points to a move. This is changing into modern mechanical descriptions and in a way created a lot more confusion than it should. It is a difficult task to convince those knowledgeable people really to open up the systems. In the information age, a concerted effort is much needed to bring the true legacies of the pass masters. Just some thoughts to share with you all.

Regards

Mantis108

[Skarbromantis]

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OK if so where in BYTT is the head grabbing face smash ie 1st, 2nd or 3rd lines. I'm not saying you're wrong I just can't think of where there is such a move in the form I've learnt. I understood that peach is traditionally the symbol for immortality/longevity which is where the connection with peoples privates came about. For what its worth the very first move of the BYTT I've learnt is a mantis hook strike to the groin.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have to agree i always thought it ment babies, i would like to know where the face smash is also.

Great thread guys, good information, keep it going.

Skard1

[Mantis9]

Young Mantis

Hey, give a shout out to my sihing, Jesse Gottesman, would ya?

My sifu just showed us his copy Sifu Chuy's 30th(?) Anniversary book. Very nice

:cool:

All

Great thread!

[Mantis9]

Young Mantis

BTW, my name is Micah. Jesse might wonder who Mantis9 is.:D

[Young Mantis]

Hi Micah,

Thanks for the compliments on the Anniversary Book. It was actually our 20th Anniversary.

I will pass along your regards to Jesse the next time I see him.

Thanks to Ursa Major, Hau Tien, and BeiTangLang for the compliments on the website. As for the photos for Bung Bo, yes many sites show that form and it was something Sifu Chuy deliberated on but eventually decided that everyone studying NPM must know Bung Bo so it is a good one for others to see how we do it. BTL, you are quite insightful in your guess. Thanks always for your support. :)

Ursa Major, of course you are welcome to drop in and visit. The invitation is open to everyone to come and see our school.

YM

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantis108
... Conceptually the peach represent immortality/longevity; therefore, any techniques that you do to cut short the life (steal the longevity) of the opponent can be understood as stealing the peach. Incidently, most of the traditional name for grabing the groin (at in TJPM traditions) is called Chui Bao (taking the treasure) or Lao Yue (scooping the moon). Whether you smash the guy's head (breaking his neck), grabbing his throat (smashing the adam's apple), punch to his solar plex or grab/smash his family jewel, it's all the same cutting his life short (steal peach).

... I believe the old manuscript (quanpu) used poetic and descriptive names to convey key points to a move. This is changing into modern mechanical descriptions and in a way created a lot more confusion than it should. It is a difficult task to convince those knowledgeable people really to open up the systems. In the information age, a concerted effort is much needed to bring the true legacies of the pass masters. Just some thoughts to share with you all. Regards, Mantis108

Ahhh... cutting the life short... stealing the peach... this is compelling. Now I finally understand.

Mantis108, my search for the original, classical 'poetic and descriptive names' whether forms or methods within forms, is my response in the face of this trend toward 'modern mechanical descriptions' that you describe. My most difficult task has been in locating reliable, qualified sources of knowledge on the 7 Star system. To-date I have been moderately successful in my quest and would like to convey that this forum through individuals like yourself and others have provided me with much useful insight. I am grateful.

But I still have a long way to go. Once I read that "... we stand on a beach on an island in the midst of an illimitable oceon of the unknown, the task of each generation is to reclaim a little more sand...". I think this most clearly reflects my passion in studying 7 Star. Having learned so much 7 Star I am now on a quest to understand in full that which I have learned.

I read that 7 Star Praying Mantis was named by it's founder after the constellation Ursa Major also known as the Big Dipper. The story continued that the founder of 7 Star named it so because he wanted this system to be known by as many people as could see this constellation.

It is a beautiful story and one that will not be possible unless we, the holders of the system, one generation at a time, continue to strive with exactitude for originality and authenticity.

Well these are some of my thoughts on the matter of the legacies of past masters in modern times.

thx,
UM.

[mantis108]

"Ahhh... cutting the life short... stealing the peach... this is compelling. Now I finally understand."

Glad you find it helpful. :)

"Mantis108, my search for the original, classical 'poetic and descriptive names' whether forms or methods within forms, is my response in the face of this trend toward 'modern mechanical descriptions' that you describe. My most difficult task has been in locating reliable, qualified sources of knowledge on the 7 Star system. To-date I have been moderately successful in my quest and would like to convey that this forum through individuals like yourself and others have provided me with much useful insight. I am grateful. "

First and foremost, thank you for your open heart and mind in bring interesting and thoughtful discussion. I would like to thank you also for the compliment. I think the "modern mechanical descriptions" are developed out of the frustrations that the poetic names lends to liberal interpretations of movements and applications. Also there is a "insider" or "old boy's club" feel to it. Those who worked at the Ching Wu assoc. would have preferred to do away with it and bring forth a more academic environment. Indeed a noble move; however, not necessarily a wise move. There is a very fine line between a gentle triming of the root, which is health, and a heavy shaving that is hazzard to the health of the PM plant. ;) Fortunately, Praying Mantis is a vibrant and diversed system. Nevertheless, 7 Stars masters did indeed bring a powerful and unique system of Kung Fu to the world. They really deserve the credit, IMHO.

"But I still have a long way to go. Once I read that "... we stand on a beach on an island in the midst of an illimitable oceon of the unknown, the task of each generation is to reclaim a little more sand...". I think this most clearly reflects my passion in studying 7 Star. Having learned so much 7 Star I am now on a quest to understand in full that which I have learned. "

Congratulations and welcome to the "Mantis Quest" ;) :D

"I read that 7 Star Praying Mantis was named by it's founder after the constellation Ursa Major also known as the Big Dipper. The story continued that the founder of 7 Star named it so because he wanted this system to be known by as many people as could see this constellation. "

Incidently, social workers in HK are known as the Ursa Major as they points the way for those who are misfortune and bring direction to those who lose their way. In Chinese thoughts/mythology, Ursa Major is also consider the High Judge of mortality. Indeed a powerful symbol.

"It is a beautiful story and one that will not be possible unless we, the holders of the system, one generation at a time, continue to strive with exactitude for originality and authenticity."

If this is your asperations and indeed your undertaking, I salute you. I bid you a fair journey beyond just a fighter machine. Being human is the truth of martial arts.

"Well these are some of my thoughts on the matter of the legacies of past masters in modern times."

Very noble thoughts, my friend. Hope to hear more from you.

Regards

Mantis108

[ursa major]

[i]... Congratulations and welcome to the "Mantis Quest" ;) :D
... I bid you a fair journey beyond just a fighter machine. Being human is the truth of martial arts.

... hope to hear more from you.
Regards, Mantis108 [/B]

My Mantis Quest has certainly been fun as well. I don't hear much discussion of the fun in martial arts and to some it may seem trivial. But learning and teaching 7 Star has made me feel like a kid again. You would think it would have worn thin by now but several years later I still get excited about teaching another lesson or starting someone on a new form.

The guys I train with (they call themselves my students but I know better) like me, are refugees from other systems. These are people like myself who after years of training trying to make one system or another fit, still found themselves to be a square peg to a round hole. Adopting the Mantis system was like opening a book and finding oneself suddenly literate. This always brings a smile to my face. For me studying Mantis is fun.

Mantis108, yes my Mantis Quest is a prominent aspiration of my life (just ask my wife, ha ha) and it is as you say, the fighting is just a part of the quest. I find poetry in 7 Star and behind the poetry, philosophy and behind the philosophy, beauty. Above all I find Praying Mantis reconciles for me and in the purest sense, the martial with the art.

Feeling not so alone in my quest,
UM.

[yu shan]

Mantis KF to me is totally fun, yet painfully realistic! Wouldn`t think of doing anything else. 7* Mantis is powerful and aesthetically pleasing...

[mantis108]

Ursa Major,

That's beautifully put. :)

Regards

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

These are the "facts" as I have found them.
They are listed here so that you can draw your own conclusions.

1. Li Zhanyuan's White Ape Steal the Peach(Bai Yuan Tou Tao or BYTT) is the same form as HK 7* Mantis Steals the Peach.

2. Li's White Ape Exits the Cave has no relation to HK 7* form of the same name(probably both newer creations).

3. To my knowledge, older lists of PM forms (not just 7*) do not list any of the forms that ursa major put at the very beginning of this post with the exception of BYTT.

4. BYTT is named after a technique of the same name. It has already been described in the thread "SevenStar and 7 set of Route Essence"
Think of an ape climbing a tree to get a peach, as opposed to a figurative definition of peach.

BTW, White ape is a short way of saying Bai Yuan Tong Bei. Tong Bei is listed as the 2nd style making up PM and is considered the "mother" of the style.
This style is so named because when done properly the practioner has movements similar to an ape in action.

Facts provided by Ilya Profatilov...

1. BYTT starts with Wang Yongchun. The man credited with creating 7* or at least learning it from Li Sanjian in 1888.

2. GM Wang passed the form to his friend Hao Lienru of Hao family Plum Flower PM

3. 7* and Plum Flower BYTT are very similar and share the same manuscript.

4. The following schools list the technique BYTT in the form of the same name.

-Li Zhanyuan's old version manuscript(not the modern version published in his book-don't ask me why).

-Qingdao 7*

-Yentai 7*

-Hao family Plum Flower PM

-Sun Yuanchang's Yentai Plum Flower lineage

-Laiyang Taiji PM

Ilya Profatilov is getting ready to publish an article on this form in the near future. Since he is in possession of these manuscripts maybe that article will shed more light on the subject.

[Tainan Mantis]

So after all that BYTT confusion do you want to hear about the confusion with the Black Tiger and the Plum Flower Hand form?

[mantis108]

By all means, please keep them coming. I for one am curious about it. :D

Warmest regards

Mantis108

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
So after all that BYTT confusion do you want to hear about the confusion with the Black Tiger and the Plum Flower Hand form?

Tainan Mantis thank-you for your post. I concur with mantis108 -- by all means please continue !

Of course I have a few questions:

Do we know where Plum Flower came from ?
Do we know when it arrived in the system ?
What is Plum Flower's distinctive characteristic ?
IS IT the system ?
What are 8 Forbidden Strikes ?
Why is Black Tiger Steals Heart one of them ?
Do we know how Black Tiger system got into 7 Star (or PM in general ?) and what is the distinctive characteristic of Black Tiger ? I practice three 7 Star Black Tiger forms...

1) Black Tiger Cross
2) Black Tiger Steps from Cave
3) Black Tiger Steals Peach

.. all of which I have great respect for. Much of the methods in these forms are shared with other 7 Star and there is only one technique that I find repeated in the forms that is alien to 7 Star as I know it. Previously I have thought that this particular technique was the 'Black Tiger' that the form is trying to teach. However, after learning that 'steals peaches' was not so much a particular technique more a fighting philosophy (cutting short the life) -- I can't help but wonder if I am missing a more important message from Black Tiger ???

Now about Plum Flower, I practice three forms that are obviously Plum Flower...

1) Plum Flower Falling Leaf
2) Plum Flower Hand
3) Plum Flower Fist

... but I have been told that it is possible that 1st and/or 3rd Route Essence are also Plum Flower. Is Plum Flower more than a particular fighting technique ? I have been examining these three forms for commonality but there is nothing that jumps out at me and says this 'must be Plum Flower'. Is Plum Flower also a fighting philosophy like 'steals peaches' ?

I look forward to your comments,
UM.

[Ye Gor]

Why are all the animals stealing peaches??? I bet there is a 'Bhudda steals the peach' somewhere out there as well. Apples aren't good enough?

I have some 'dumb student' questions:

1) why peach and not grape/apple/pear?
2) why steal and not grab/take/grasp/rip/pluck?

I wonder what 'yellow dog steals sausage' is like... AD might know... :)

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Ye Gor
Why are all the animals stealing peaches??? I bet there is a 'Bhudda steals the peach' somewhere out there as well. Apples aren't good enough?

I have some 'dumb student' questions:

1) why peach and not grape/apple/pear?
2) why steal and not grab/take/grasp/rip/pluck?

I wonder what 'yellow dog steals sausage' is like... AD might know... :)

This was one of my original questions too -- why steals peach ? why step out of cave, etc... I'll have a go at commenting on this.

If you read the mantis108 post he states that...

"Conceptually the peach represent immortality/longevity; therefore, any techniques that you do to cut short the life (steal the longevity) of the opponent can be understood as stealing the peach. Incidently, most of the traditional name for grabing the groin (at in TJPM traditions) is called Chui Bao (taking the treasure) or Lao Yue (scooping the moon). Whether you smash the guy's head (breaking his neck), grabbing his throat (smashing the adam's apple), punch to his solar plex or grab/smash his family jewel, it's all the same cutting his life short (steal peach). "

From what I understand "Steals Peaches" is a cultural-centric euphemism. Being mostly ignorant of the colloquialisms of Chinese culture, I cannot state whether or not this euphemism is recodnized in modern language either but it obviously had a place historically. As far as I am aware the apple and pear had no such cultural ethos however I am sure Mantis108 or Tainan mantis would have the facts on that.

From what I can ascertain the naming of 7 Star forms, techniques or methods is based upon and named through philosophical interpretation or Praying Mantis with an inclination towards the artistic. Behind this of course was the deadly intent of the kung-fu itself. With the combination of philosophy, art and deadly intent I am not surprised that we have "Mantis Steals Peaches" and not "Yellow Dog Steals Sausage" (pass the mustard eh ?, ha, ha).

Ye Gor, may I suggest re-reading this thread from the first post ? I just did and I believe you will find the answers to 1) and 2).

thx,
UM.

[Tainan Mantis]

White Ape is a shortened form of saying Tong Bei boxing, the mother of PM.
Although I have no solid proof, This White ape form of 7* is most likely Tong Bei derived.

The peach is the most precoius fruit in Chinese mythology.
It grows in the gardens of heaven.
The monkey king stole a large quantity from the heavenly orchards and ate them all in a single day thus becoming immortal.
His exploits have been told by Chinese for many hundreds of years(I gave you this book in 1990).

Another story relates a magician and his son putting on a show for the local politicians in ancient China.

The man threw a rope up into the sky and it hooked on a cloud. He sent his son up the rope to the heavenly orchard to steal a peach for the bigwig.

A few minutes later a big peach was thrown down from the sky.
The magician gave it to the bigwig who cut it and proclaimed it fresh and tasty.

While everyone was marveling at this feat the rope fell down from the sky. Followed by the boy's head, arms and legs all in pieces.

In tears, the man put the boy's body parts in the box while asking the crowd to help out with the funeral expenses.

After everyone gave what money they could, the magician knocked on the box and said," Well boy, aren't you going to thank these nice people?"

At this moment the boy got out of the box and waved to the astonished onlookers.

From these two well known stories we can see that the peach is a valuable fruit.
Apples and pears aren't bad, but how great can they be if they don't have their own special orchard in heaven?

This name, White Ape Steal the Peach, is a specific technique.
It is interesting to note that in WHF's Jai Yao book he states that this technique is originally called Jai Yao.

[Tainan Mantis]

As has been mentioned here and on other forums. I and several others have come to the conclusion the Luo Guangyu was visited by MA inspiration and added substantially to the PM repertoire.

I won't go into all the details here.

One of his creations is Plum Flower Hand. Also Plum Flower Fist. But not Plum Flower Road(Mei Hua Lu).

Plum Flower Hand is a short form of 32 moves in WHF's book.

Huang Wenhow, another 7* practitioner, has a book called Black Tiger Exits the Cave.
It is exactly the same form up to the 27th move.
That is the end of this form.
Any information on Huang Wenhow might help solve this riddle.

ursa major,
That is a lot of questions you listed.
I don't think we can fit all those discussions in this one thread alone.

[Ye Gor]

TM, UM, thank you both.

It makes good sense why the peach, then.

Ah, the naughty Monkey King. (Never read that book, TM... hopefully made up for it at least in part with 'Zen Flesh Zen Bones' [or something like that]. But I have read a somewhat unorthodox rendition of the Monkey King story in Heavy Metal... that's the kind of stuff I used to read back then. After sneaking into the Celestial Kitchens and discovering and eating a whole pot full of the peaches, MK became immortal and even more naughty than before, etc, etc... He was tamed by Bhudda when failing to jump over his hand.)

It is interesting that the peach is stolen (and not smashed, like the adam's apple). Stealing implies both a loss by the previous owner and a gain by the thief. Now, I have read about martial artists so skilled in fighting and internal energy that they had the ability to take their opponents chi/qi for themselves, literally stealing it. Ofcourse, I read it in a comic book (Badger).

Well, sorry for the irrelevant babble. Something made me do it.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
ursa major, That is a lot of questions you listed.
I don't think we can fit all those discussions in this one thread alone.

Ok, I'll start a new thread called "Black Tiger Steals Heart".

thx in advance,
UM.

[Laviathan]

Hi, I'm a Choy Li Fut practitioner but I did learned some rudiments of Praying Mantis in the past. Due to my interest in Mantis kungfu, I've done some research about it. Just want to share some of my limited knowledge on this matter:

Plum Flower
Plum Flower (Meihua) Praying Mantis earns its' name because of the technique of five continuous attacks, which is the style's characteristic. This five-part technique when performed resembles the plum flower pattern, hence the name. This technique is called "Yi Tu Wu Mei Hua" (One Exhale Five Plum Flower) or the Plum Flower Hand Method. The three forms of this style (Plum Flower Hand, Plum Flower Fist and Plum Flower Falling) all have this method in its' routine. These Plum Flower forms are always taught along Seven Star Praying Mantis forms, so these two styles are considered to be one school of Praying Mantis kungfu, the Hard Tanglang School. (I got this info from a Japanese book on Chinese martial arts)

Black Tiger
According to Yuen Man Kai's book "Northern Mantis Black Tiger Intersectional Boxing", the Song dynasty general Yue Fei learned martial arts from master Zhou Tong. Prior to this, Zhou Tong already taught two disciples, Lin Chong and Lu Junyi. The Black Tiger Stealing the Heart technique was the favorite technique of Yue Fei. The fighting styles of both Lin Chong and Lu Junyi was used by Wang Lang to create the Praying Mantis style. It is possible that the Black Tiger technique was a skill of Zhou Tong which was passed on to Lin Chong, Lu Junyi and Yue Fei respectively.

Stealing Peach
As it is mentioned earlier, Monkey Stealing the Peach is derived from the popular novel Journey to the West in which the Monkey King stole the Peach of Immortality. Furthermore, if the Stealing Peach technique is really an attack to the opponent's head, then it would make sense because in Chinese: Peach = Tao, while Head = Tou, the sounds are quite similar. The name then more or less suggests an attack (steal) to the head (peach).

But this is just my 2 cents, hope I haven't said anything stupid. :p

Hope that the more experienced forum-members can correct my mistakes.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Laviathan
Hi, I'm a Choy Li Fut practitioner but I did learned some rudiments of Praying Mantis in the past.

...But this is just my 2 cents, hope I haven't said anything stupid. :p


Thx Laviathan for your discussion on the Mei Hua and Black Tiger your comments were very interesting reading.

I take it Choy Li Fut is the same as Choy Lee Fat ? Just the usual translation differences ? Many years ago I used to train with a Choy Lee Fat Sifu Hon Lee of Richmond Kung-Fu in Richmond, B.C., his club is or was very popular then. I am curious if you have any connection with this club ?

thx,
UM.

[Laviathan]

To Ursa Major

Thank you! My knowledge on Praying Mantis is poor, but I'm very interested in this fighting style. Above all, the discussions here in the Praying Mantis are more interesting than those in Southern forum lately. I'm glad I can be part of it. :)

I have trained in different styles in the past, but now I mainly train in Choy Li Fut. My Sifu is a student of Master Doc-Fai Wong. I have only trained Choy Li Fut for a year, and I'm not familiar with other schools. I sorry to say that I really don't know anything about Sifu Hon Lee of Richmond. :(

Lav

[mantisben]

If Praying Mantis Steals the Peach the technique of a head-grabbing face smash, the only place I can see this happening is in the first 2 moves of the 1st road of the form:

1) Spin into Tiger-Riding Stance, Hook opponents incoming right punch with your right hand, and hook the back of his neck with your left hand.

2) Shift into right 7* stance and execute a right hammer fist to the opponents face.

If the Praying Mantis Steals the Peach is supposed to philosophically be "taking the longevity" of the opponent, then possibly the techniques are supposed to be used to aggressively and repeatedly attack the opponent's head. There ARE alot of techniques that attack the head in this form.

Attacking the head often is present in alot of PM forms (that I know), but in this form, it seems like it just one powerful strike to the head after another.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Laviathan
... My knowledge on Praying Mantis is poor, but I'm very interested in this fighting style.
Lav

My sentiments exactly -- the more I learn about Praying Mantis the more I become aware of my ignorance.

thx,
UM.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantisben
... 1) Spin into Tiger-Riding Stance, Hook opponents incoming right punch with your right hand, and hook the back of his neck with your left hand.

2) Shift into right 7* stance and execute a right hammer fist to the opponents face.

Attacking the head often is present in alot of PM forms (that I know), but in this form, it seems like it just one powerful strike to the head after another.

Interesting way to play it mantisben I have never considered the 2nd hook (left) as attaching to the neck ??? I have a totally different take on the these opening steps to PMSP form.

step 1) Spin into Tiger-Riding Stance with right intercept and hook to incoming right punch securing my right hook to his fore-arm, then left hook attaches across his right elbow joint securing wrist and elbow.

step 2) as you advance to right hiking stance using left hook pull his elbow to low left side and strike hammer (fore-arm) to the opening you have just made. The opening is typically the left or right side of the neck (brachial plexus) depending on how the opponent responds.

Understand this is not a right way vs. wrong way debate -- I am however always amazed at how many variations there are at interpreting the same steps. I am looking forward to trying the 'neck hook' method during tonight's training.

thx,
UM.

[mantis108]

I am affraid the left hand hook to the neck (kind of a clinch) is not an ideal use in this case [not before you have his right side under complete control]. It leaves many oppotunities for him to disengage or even capitalize (risk to slap on a Sui Chin Si wrist lock on your right hand). Come to think of it he might be able to do a takedown on you if you somehow can not secure his right arm by the wrist. If indeed you choose such an application, you must observe a very tight control of his right side from the root up [re: front leg of your tiger-riding stance must come into play]. Otherwise, you are prone to have a very fierce counter ending with your back on the ground [then you will be forced to initiate a ground fight phase]. Not to mention his right elbow and left hand are quite free to come into play. ;)

Just some thoughts

Mantis108

[mantisben]

Originally posted by ursa major


Interesting way to play it mantisben I have never considered the 2nd hook (left) as attaching to the neck ??? I have a totally different take on the these opening steps to PMSP form.

thx,
UM.

I was only trying to figure where there might be a head-grabbing face smash in the PMSP form. Actually, I think that instead of hooking the back of the neck, I might execute it as a "slap" to the back of the neck (be very careful with the slap), then instead of stepping forward with the right foot, simply pull the opponents head into a right-hammerfist with the left foot forward ( and alot of twist from the waist ).

Of course, there is the big chance that there isn't a face smash in this technique, and I'm trying to fit the movement into a mold that it doesn't fit in.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by mantis108
I am affraid the left hand hook to the neck (kind of a clinch) is not an ideal use in this case [not before you have his right side under complete control]. It leaves many oppotunities for him to disengage or even capitalize (risk to slap on a Sui Chin Si wrist lock on your right hand). Come to think of it he might be able to do a takedown on you if you somehow can not secure his right arm by the wrist. If indeed you choose such an application, you must observe a very tight control of his right side from the root up [re: front leg of your tiger-riding stance must come into play]. Otherwise, you are prone to have a very fierce counter ending with your back on the ground [then you will be forced to initiate a ground fight phase]. Not to mention his right elbow and left hand are quite free to come into play. ;)

Just some thoughts

Mantis108

Thank you for the reply. I appreciate your analysis of the downside to applying the technique as I thought it might work.

Do you know the Praying Mantis Steals the Peach form? If you do, do you know where there might be a head-grabbing face smash in this form?

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantisben
Do you know the Praying Mantis Steals the Peach form? If you do, do you know where there might be a head-grabbing face smash in this form?

Well mantisben, I tried it and I like it (your example of step 1). It is a little difficult to get the reach all the way to the neck sometimes (footwork, maybe I have short arms ???) depends on how deep their step is into your zone. I found that if I made a slight modification to the angle of attack on the hammer blow which is to say more horizontal -- that it would make for a very nasty strike falling across the jaw bone. I also found that if you step behind their lead leg this segways very nicely into a take-down (hip-throw).

Interesting, I never practice the hammer strike as a strike to the head. I always practice these as strikes that cut across the opponent most typically across the neck or brachial plexus. This works well for me as PM lends itself so easily to siezing, opening up and exposing the opponent. Well that is another subject altogether eh ?

I just did PMSP form and have re-read my notes on it as well. To be frank I do not see any obvious examples of 'head smashing' other than the fact that in many of the techniques the head could be or is be the intended target. I suppose that could be head smashing.

But I prefer the Mantis108 explanation of 'Stealing the Peach' is 'cutting short the life. In this context, and if you consider the strikes in PMSP as one or more of the 8 Forbidden strikes, these would without doubt be cutting short the life or Stealing the Peach and the central theme of the form would be satisfied. Therefore I am not looking for any 'head smashing' technique rather the intended target for each strike and in particular the manner of execution.

thx,
UM.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by ursa major


Well mantisben, I tried it and I like it (your example of step 1). It is a little difficult to get the reach all the way to the neck sometimes (footwork, maybe I have short arms ???) depends on how deep their step is into your zone.

When hooking/slapping the back of the neck, I think it is important not to try to reach-out to the back of the neck. I think wing-chun calls it neck-pulling, and they combine their neck-pulling with a lifting type of hook-punch and their straight punch.


Interesting, I never practice the hammer strike as a strike to the head. I always practice these as strikes that cut across the opponent most typically across the neck or brachial plexus.

I usually target the hammer-fist for the temple, or the top of the nose. Thanks for reminding me about using it to strike the neck. Also, where is the Brachial Plexus located?


But I prefer the Mantis108 explanation of 'Stealing the Peach' is 'cutting short the life. In this context, and if you consider the strikes in PMSP as one or more of the 8 Forbidden strikes, these would without doubt be cutting short the life or Stealing the Peach and the central theme of the form would be satisfied.

I agree, I agree. I guess the central theme of White Ape Steals the Peach would be the "White Ape's" way of stealing longevity.

Thank you very much for your reply and valuable input.

[mantis108]

You are most welcome, my friend. I have the drawings and the Quanpu (modern version) from Sifu Lam Ying Kit of HK Ching Wu school. I haven't learned it per se. But I have worked with some of the techniques, which are similar since they are mantis after all. The technique in question would have to be properly answered by Sifu Profatilov since he seems to be the one who have this technique.

I could venture a guess that is in the sequence in the first road starting with the Go-lu-tsai/waist chop (really as a chop not a throw)/round house punch/backfist/mantis grab/Pu Chui in 7* stance. In this sequence, there is definitely a high-low-high tempo & grab+smash. Especially the left 7* stance mantis grab switch to right 7* stance pu chui seems to have to employ a bit of monkey footwork. Just a guess.

Regards

Mantis108

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantisben
I usually target the hammer-fist for the temple, or the top of the nose. Thanks for reminding me about using it to strike the neck. Also, where is the Brachial Plexus located?
[

You are most welcome mantisben.

The brachial plexus is the muscle group running up the sides of your neck from your shoulder attaching to the just behind the jaw and under the ear. By striking this area you can easily disable your opponent. I am certain there are those readers who could give a better explanation of the strengths and weaknesses of this area. It is very sensitive to strikes. Have a training partner give you a 25% power hammer strike to this area and tell me if you aren't dazed and shaken ? Be very careful with it though.

Interesting that you use the fist as contact point in the hammer strike ? Generally speaking I like to use the 7 Star hammer chop as a fore-arm strike and secondary a fist strike.

I also adapted it in these two ways,

1) I extend the 'baby-finger' partially this is Hap-kido style and makes for a severely rigid wrist/fore-arm.
2) apply the technique using a heavy or 'Earth' strike as it is called in Hung-Gar, this is dropping into the strike leading with the elbow earthwards and heavy emphasis with the shoulder, exhaling powerfully and dropping the center ever so slightly as you attack. Is there a name for this in 7 Star ?

thx,
UM.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by ursa major


You are most welcome mantisben.

The brachial plexus is the muscle group running up the sides of your neck from your shoulder attaching to the just behind the jaw and under the ear. By striking this area you can easily disable your opponent. I am certain there are those readers who could give a better explanation of the strengths and weaknesses of this area. It is very sensitive to strikes. Have a training partner give you a 25% power hammer strike to this area and tell me if you aren't dazed and shaken ? Be very careful with it though.


I'll have someone do this.

Interesting that you use the fist as contact point in the hammer strike ? Generally speaking I like to use the 7 Star hammer chop as a fore-arm strike and secondary a fist strike.

I never thought of the Hammer-Fist in PM forms representing a forearm strike. Is this only a forearm strike when executing the strike from the 7* stance?

I also adapted it in these two ways,

1) I extend the 'baby-finger' partially this is Hap-kido style and makes for a severely rigid wrist/fore-arm.


Is the baby finger the same as the pinky finger?


2) apply the technique using a heavy or 'Earth' strike as it is called in Hung-Gar, this is dropping into the strike leading with the elbow earthwards and heavy emphasis with the shoulder, exhaling powerfully and dropping the center ever so slightly as you attack. Is there a name for this in 7 Star ?

I'll try executing this against a punching bag, just to see where the power comes from.

I know 7*PM has forearm strikes, but I don't know which movements specifically.

Thank you for the infomative posts.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantisben


I'll have someone do this.

Interesting that you use the fist as contact point in the hammer strike ? Generally speaking I like to use the 7 Star hammer chop as a fore-arm strike and secondary a fist strike.

I never thought of the Hammer-Fist in PM forms representing a forearm strike. Is this only a forearm strike when executing the strike from the 7* stance?

I also adapted it in these two ways,

1) I extend the 'baby-finger' partially this is Hap-kido style and makes for a severely rigid wrist/fore-arm.


Is the baby finger the same as the pinky finger?


2) apply the technique using a heavy or 'Earth' strike as it is called in Hung-Gar, this is dropping into the strike leading with the elbow earthwards and heavy emphasis with the shoulder, exhaling powerfully and dropping the center ever so slightly as you attack. Is there a name for this in 7 Star ?

I'll try executing this against a punching bag, just to see where the power comes from.

I know 7*PM has forearm strikes, but I don't know which movements specifically.

Thank you for the infomative posts.

Hello Mantisben thank-you for your comments,

I may be mis-applying the hammer strike using the fore-arm ? It may be that the original authors intended for a hammer 'fist' strike however I am more comfortable using the fore-arm against various targets because it seems to me that it is more capable of crushing/breaking than the 'bottom' of my fist. This is not to say the hammer fist has no place in fact I practice it as well -- I just have more confidence with a hammer fore-arm strike than hammer fist.

Here is an example fo the fore-arm strike in 18 Elders form starting with the opening steps:

1) make left 7 Star stance with left outside fore-arm Mantis hook.
2) advance to right 7 Star stance with right hammer strike.

When I practice this form with a partner he steps in punching either arm no matter, then I counter with mantis intercepting hook and step in with hammer fore-arm to his...

1) bicep
2) elbow joint
3) shoulder joint
4) collar bone
5) throat
6) brachial plexus
7) rear ribs

... the target area depends on whether you are intercepting your left to his right or your left to his left. For example if I intercept his left with my left I will try to turn it over so I can drop the hammer fore-arm on his elbow joint. If I intercept his right with my left I might target his bicep or the torso depending on how deep I am ?

I think that with these kinds of steps the weapon has to be blunter than the fist and in so doing the targets become richer. I appreciate comments on this interpretation as it is an area of great interest to me.

Yes by 'baby finger' I meant the same as the pinky. If you make a fist then extend the pinky out 'half-way' so that the finger is still touching the palm then you have it. Another way of describing it is to make a leopard palm then make a fist with the every finger other than the pinky -- this leaves the pinky extended 'Hap-kido' style.

Also, I am interested to hear your findings on generating power with your hammer strikes.

thx in advance,
UM.

[Young Mantis]

Ursa,

I do believe that experimenting with different ways to apply a technique is very healthy and actually the only way to make the style your own. I think is equally important to understand what the original intent of the technique should be. I don't doubt that your variations to the opening of "Sup Baht Sao" can be very effective for you and I can very easily understand your applications from your clear descriptions, but I have always found the hammer strike to be using the fist and not the forearm. I simply do not believe the forearm strike would have more hitting power than the hammer fist. I also disagree that hitting the targets you mentioned would require a "blunter" object.

With every weapon, when you swing it, the point with most power will be the end. Like swinging a staff, the very end of the staff will have the most power. With a soft weapon like a whip, the most impact will come at the end of the whip. The same goes for the arm and hammer strike. I feel I will always generate more impact power at the fist than my forearm. I only use forearms for the sweeping blocks and for applying arm bars or elbow breaks.

Going back to "Sup Baht Sao", when I learned the "Ling" or 2-man form, the hammer strike was a hammer fist to the head which if blocked leads to the next "foong sao toong chui" - grab, pull and punch sequence.

Again, not to say that experimenting with different targets and methods of striking is wrong, but I believe this to be the original intent of the form.

YM

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Young Mantis [/i]


I feel I will always generate more impact power at the fist than my forearm. I only use forearms for the sweeping blocks and for applying arm bars or elbow breaks.

When executing a forearm strike, I don't think you throw the forearm as if you are throwing the Hammer-Fist. I think the body mechanics between throwing a Hammer-Fist and a Forearm strike are different.

Going back to "Sup Baht Sao", when I learned the "Ling" or 2-man form, the hammer strike was a hammer fist to the head which if blocked leads to the next "foong sao toong chui" - grab, pull and punch sequence.

I think it'll lead into a "Toong Chui" even if the hammer-fist lands right on the button.


Again, not to say that experimenting with different targets and methods of striking is wrong, but I believe this to be the original intent of the form.

YM

Experimenting with different targets and methods is why there are soo many different styles of PM. Shucks, I'll even go as far as saying experimenting with different targets and method is why there are soo many different styles of Fighting.

2-Man Sup Baht Sao? I'll bet that's alot of fun!

Thanks for sharing!

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Young Mantis
Ursa,

I do believe that experimenting with different ways to apply a technique is very healthy and actually the only way to make the style your own. I think is equally important to understand what the original intent of the technique should be. I don't doubt that your variations to the opening of "Sup Baht Sao" can be very effective for you and I can very easily understand your applications from your clear descriptions, but I have always found the hammer strike to be using the fist and not the forearm. I simply do not believe the forearm strike would have more hitting power than the hammer fist. I also disagree that hitting the targets you mentioned would require a "blunter" object.

With every weapon, when you swing it, the point with most power will be the end. Like swinging a staff, the very end of the staff will have the most power. With a soft weapon like a whip, the most impact will come at the end of the whip. The same goes for the arm and hammer strike. I feel I will always generate more impact power at the fist than my forearm. I only use forearms for the sweeping blocks and for applying arm bars or elbow breaks.

Going back to "Sup Baht Sao", when I learned the "Ling" or 2-man form, the hammer strike was a hammer fist to the head which if blocked leads to the next "foong sao toong chui" - grab, pull and punch sequence.

Again, not to say that experimenting with different targets and methods of striking is wrong, but I believe this to be the original intent of the form.

YM

Hello Young Mantis and thank-you for your comments. Also, I appreciate your sig with the "WHF Lineage Practitioner". As of recent I have been using his books to correct some of my forms -- a most rewarding experience. Does his Sup Baht Sao book mention striking with the hammer fist then ? (I read the pics and not the words unfortunately).

I hope you do not exclude the fore-arm in your hammer strike, that you will continue to explore it as time permits. You make a good point about the pendulum or centripetal effect with the hammer fist vs. the hammer fore-arm and I agree that when velocity is important you can generate more, perhaps much more velocity using the fist.

But some targets are, to my mind, better suited to the fore-arm. For instance attacking the bicep at the elbow joint, this is a tricky target to strike and requires a hard tool for maximum effect. The
fore-arm using the 'kal' or lower fore-arm bone works very well for this. Also I get closer using the fore-arm. There are other examples as well using the fore-arm in each case it is a heavy strike where power is increased by earthing the limb. You might call it a trade-off velocity vs. gravity ? Fundamentally I think the targets are different between hammer fore-arm and hammer fist and have no arguments with the use of either.

Your point is made however -- I will practice the form with hammer fist in mind.

thx, UM.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantisben
When executing a forearm strike, I don't think you throw the forearm as if you are throwing the Hammer-Fist. I think the body mechanics between throwing a Hammer-Fist and a Forearm strike are different.


Hello mantisben,

I agree when I practice these two variations the setup and execution are quite different. As I stated in an earlier post so are the targets. After practicing the hammer fist I find it uniquely suited for targets I would otherwise have avoided due to the awkwardness of trying to apply the fore-arm strike (eg: temple strike). In future I will be altering my training habits.

thx mantisben and YoungMantis,
UM.

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by mantisben
I think it'll lead into a "Toong Chui" even if the hammer-fist lands right on the button.

Ahh, yes but if I have successfully used my diu sau to intercept one of my opponent's hands and while maintaining that control am able to deliver a right hammerfist strike, I would not release his wrist to execute a "toong chui" with my left hand without controlling a different limb. If the hammerfist were blocked, I would use my right hand to then control his blocking hand and then release the left to punch. This way I still control one of his limbs. But that's ok, this is just a matter of fighting style. I like the control. If I land the hammerfist on the button and still have control of one of his arms, it would go into a different technique and stray from the "Sup Baht Sao" sequence.


2-Man Sup Baht Sao? I'll bet that's alot of fun!

All the 2-man forms or "Ling Forms" are a lot of fun and really teach the essence of the forms and the PM style. It is one of the unique characteristics of our style and after learning each one, has increased my understanding of many other techniques in the other forms.

YM

[Hau Tien]

I don't know Sup Baht Sao yet (I'm not sure at what point our Sifu teaches it), but on the issue of using a forearm to hammer strike, we were shown both. Simply a different range of fighting. Also, using the forearm on the hammer strike (such as in Sap Sei Lo #3) can allow you to change the movement from being a strike into a throw, depending on the circumstances.

That's just one example, of course... I think it's more a question of what range/angle you're fighting in than anything else.

Just my opinion:)

[Ye Gor]

Well said, Hau Tien. I'd like to add that there are also 'soft' targets against which a forearam strike is plenty good. It's all a matter of the situation and adapting to it.

[yu shan]

YM

In your training, is there always taught "the" two-person to your Mantis forms? Not just some, but all?

[ursa major]

Originally posted by yu shan
YM

In your training, is there always taught "the" two-person to your Mantis forms? Not just some, but all?

Hello yu shan,

I cannot answer for Young Mantis but when I was taught the forms it was assumed that there was an opposite fighting form for every form even though we may not know them. The only ones (two-man fighting forms) I know of are Crushing Step and Piercing Fist.

I was told that once upon a time many of the original forms had formal two-man fighting sets. I wish I had these as from those I have seen I know they provide tremendous insight to the forms and their authors.

Also, as an experiment and lesson in learning I have tried creating my own two-man fighting set for PF Falling Leaf. I highly recommend this excercise I found it to be very fruitful in terms of learning and insight.

thx,
UM.

[mantisben]

I've seen 2-man Daw Ghong, and I know someone that knows the 7* White Ape Steals The Peach 2-man set. I've seen 2 different versions of the Bung Bo 2-man set.

I know that in the magazine "Kung-Fu QiGong (May/June & July/Aug of 2001)" issue they have the 2-man Piercing Fist performed by Sifu Jon Funk.

[Young Mantis]

Yu Shan,

As Ursa points out, I too have been told that all of the authentic NPM forms have 2-man or "Ling" versions. Our website lists the ones we teach.

The "Ling" forms are indeed a very unique and crucial component of the NPM system. I believe they teach the original intention of each movement in a form. They also show more preciesly the entire flavor or flow of each form. For the "ling" side, it also teaches possible counters or escapes for the movements in the form. Many of the techniques in the "ling" form were no where near what I first thought the application was when I learned the solo form. Each one has been truly enlightening.

YM

[nathan chukueke]

There are no secrets only creative study and research. In general, most teacher don't teach you what they don't think you would be interested, need to know or does not interest themsleves.

In this case read Chinese classical novel: Journey to The West and maybe Diamond Sutra. I am talking about phrases like (steals the peach=spirit of the monkey king).

Four Forms related to Journey to The West

White ape exits the cave.
White ape worship the North Star.
White ape secretly watch the banquet.
White ape steals the peach.

These four forms compress about a quarter Journey to The West, with reference to textual content, i.e. storyline.

White forms some of the oldest in Northern Mantis in general. The concepts of these forms predate 7 Star Mantis.

White Ape has monkey leg such as kneeling moves and maybe dei tong/ground moves. White Ape are also known for its wide radius arm and fist movements.

Steals the Peach=Issue is where Monkey King has a problem in Heaven. He gets mad, and tries to steal peach of immortality. On a basic level, the peach represents is ones sexual organs located between your legs. This stealing attack would hurt ones chi and thus impede ones longevity (read Taoist Yoga/ Charles Luk). Here is where we get into the whole discussion of lethal points in the human body and the flow of chi.

Mantis steals the peach is a more important mantis form, if you learn the right versions some say.

Om Peace

Nathan Chukueke
Administrator
Northern Shaolin 7 Star Pray Mantis Association
Under Chi Luen

[ursa major]

Originally posted by nathan chukueke
Four Forms related to Journey to The West

White ape exits the cave.
White ape worship the North Star.
White ape secretly watch the banquet.
White ape steals the peach.

These four forms compress about a quarter Journey to The West, with reference to textual content, i.e. storyline.

White forms some of the oldest in Northern Mantis in general. The concepts of these forms predate 7 Star Mantis.

White Ape has monkey leg such as kneeling moves and maybe dei tong/ground moves. White Ape are also known for its wide radius arm and fist movements.

Steals the Peach=Issue is where Monkey King has a problem in Heaven. He gets mad, and tries to steal peach of immortality. On a basic level, the peach represents is ones sexual organs located between your legs. This stealing attack would hurt ones chi and thus impede ones longevity (read Taoist Yoga/ Charles Luk). Here is where we get into the whole discussion of lethal points in the human body and the flow of chi.

Mantis steals the peach is a more important mantis form, if you learn the right versions some say.


Thank-you for your commentary nathan chukueke. This is another very interesting and appreciated insight into this obscure subject.

IMHO I would be hard pressed to say Mantis Steals Peach is more important than White Ape Steals Peach. Having learned, practiced and studied both of these forms I can say with certitude that my PM is the richer as a result. I believe they each offer a unique and special component of and to 7 Star.

thx,
UM.

[Tainan Mantis]

Nathan,
Thanks for the informative post.
What aspects of White Ape do you suspect predate 7* PM?

[nathan chukueke]

If you go to the northern shoalin forum I am sure they can tell you a lot more about white ape than I can. That being said, those of us who are crazy about detail, use the following concepts:

Arms
1. White ape gives mantis a downward sloping or arching movement as the punch in many moves. Part of the idea being, that opponent’s arms are targets well as his body is a striking points even if you miss his body. Moreover, this arching strike can to done over and under your opponents arms, using the concepts of open and close movement positions. My gung fu brother Carl Albright has nicely touched on this concept of open and closed positions.

2. The white ape arms are also important on the point of rolling strikes. With the white ape favor added to mantis movements like the 18 palm strikes can be done in a very strong, with the proper chi development, but flowing manner. This wheel like action is also less stressful on ones joints. Which can be a problem in northern mantis training.

3. The white ape energy skill enhances ones later deliver of movement phrase in the system if learned well manner. If one does not learn about such things from ones teacher, practice and insight may show you equally interesting energy patterns, as the designs of these forms must have found from long training.

Mantis coming out of the cave is somewhat more linear in energy, and is more focused on development on some concepts in combinations that only become important in later forms in the system (opinion).

Perhaps someone other than me would like to speak about ape/monkey legs.

Nathan Chukueke

om peace

[seung ga faat]

Thanks, Nathan for your enlightened response.
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