William Cheung and Emin Boztep Article

[FIRE HAWK]

http://www.enteract.com/~weishaar/martial/docs/cheung_attack

[Internal Boxer]

Hmmmmm 2000 words, going from one excuse to another, inetersting.

He has certainly lost face. From their persepective I think they hoped the article would patch up the damage caused, but anyone independent from the WC world can see this article just makes him look at lot worse.:rolleyes:

[The Willow Sword]

it doesnt matter the circumstances and who was conspiring against who. the POINT is that when he was confronted and attacked he went down and was defeated(now dont you think that a GRANDMASTER would not allow this to happen to him?) I apologize if this offends the wing chun community but what I saw was no more edited than the zapruder film(kennedys assasination). you have a guy attacking another guy and beating him senslessly. what is the term i keep hearing in wing chun and JKD? "always be ready"?
i think that emin boeztepe made himself less than admirable with his attack on cheung. HOWEVER, if cheung being the grandmaster was as good as he claimed he was then he should have been able to teach emin a lesson.
anyway there is my two cents worth.
Many Respects,,The Willow Sword

[Chang Style Novice]

"it doesnt matter the circumstances and who was conspiring against who. "

Oh, don't be ridiculous.

Hey Zeus, doesn't anyone here have any common sense? A sudden suprise attack from someone right next to you is about the worst 1on1 nightmare scenario I can envision for anyone. I don't care if you're a grandmaster or what - that's bad news.

The logical extension of this kind of 'thinking' is that a "real" master can never be killed, because when a sniper behind him blows off his head with a 30-06 from 100 yards away, his wing chun should have given him a way out.

Kung fu is a great fighting art (or rather, a great collection of fighting arts), but it's not magic.

[jimmy23]

qoute from article

"He was struggling like a wounded mule because he had no countering
technique against the headlock."

uh, watch the fim again, there wasnt even a good headlock, Cheung tried to grab onto Emins head and got swept and dumped.
Both these guys are punks, apologies to the wing tsun people.

[The Willow Sword]

the title of grandmaster and claims of invincibility and whatever doesnt take away from the FACT that you could get "TAKEN OUT" at the least expected moment. like i said"always be ready"
its the wild wild west brotha. the wild wild west.
:D many respects,,The Willow Sword

[Rolling Elbow]

Problem is..Emin came at him straight on and told Cheung he had 3 seconds before he came! Regardless of 3 seconds or not, he came at him from the FRONT and Cheung was teaching a seminar where one might expect that his reflexes would be SHARPER from doping Chi sao and whatever the hell else he was teaching that day. To have ****ty reflexes like that is no excuse!

[Chang Style Novice]

I may as well let it be known I haven't read the article or seen the video - all my info is third hand.

Yeah, if he had 3 seconds to be ready and was attacked from the front, there should have been some decent defense.

[The Willow Sword]

ive seen it and it is self explanatory.

Many Respects,,The Willow Sword

[Rolling Elbow]

mcdojo.com, front page..vid is as clear as it gets!

[rogue]

A sudden suprise attack from someone right next to you is about the worst 1on1 nightmare scenario I can envision for anyone. I don't care if you're a grandmaster or what - that's bad news. But that's the thing it wasn't what I'd call a surpise attack..

He(Boztepe) said, "No, no, no, I want to challenge you."

Also...
"When I started the second sort of technique drill, he came over again,
and I noticed there's about 10-15 people walking behind and around him. Andas soon as he came up, they went and formed a circle around us. And he said, "I want to fight you now." And I said, "Well, that's different. You said you wanted to spar and now you want to fight." I said, "Let's do it after class." And he began mumbling something, and I said, "Look, you know, I granted you the fight after the class. And strictly speaking, you're not even in my seniority."

While a master of WC, Cheung is about as dumb as the dead TKD when it comes to the real world, because right after the above exchange...
"So I walked away, but I knew he more or less was going to try something. So after I walked away, the third step he rushed in and threw a round punch with his right arm."

I hope Cheung has wised up to the ways of the world since then.

[jimmy23]

" A sudden suprise attack from someone right next to you is about the worst 1on1 nightmare scenario I can envision for anyone"

it wasnt a surprise, take 5 minutes and read the article

[dbulmer]

Both of them are skilled guys but you wouldn't think so from the video.
Why is it that skilled guys can sometimes lose the plot? I suppose because they can where others can't.

[diego]

i dont care who said what, but lets say cheungs story is true, "and you the haters are cheung!".

he said boztepe didnt land one shot, and cheung blocked them all!. and all cheung did was do the headlock and threw some knees?.

I cant dl the video from mcdojo it wont come in, and i have seen the blurry one awhile back... for those who have seen, does boztepe hit him with shots? when he is mounted or is he just pummelling and not making contact?.


Now Technical question, you have twenty people surrounding you, and in your mind you doubt they will kill you, but we all know how the mobmentality gets when **** gets chaoitic, like if i was cheung and i knew i could stomp boztepe, but he has twenty guys with him, i would be cautious, especially as im in a foriegn land without a business permit and teaching a seminar to a mixed ma group!, so i dont know who has my back or whatnot!.

He told em that they would spar after class, he wanted to fight, cheung was talking about a open challenge to test skill to see who is better, emin just wanted to build face!.

so if all thats real and im cheung and this junior nobody steps to me with 20 guys I Would do the same as cheung just defend myself and try not to work emin to much so his boys dont get ****ed and jump in.....DO YOU KNOW HOW HARD THAT IS, HAVE YOU EVER TRY TO ARREST A DRUNK FRIEND CALMY WITHOUT ****ING HIM OFF WHEN HE IS SPAZZING OUT?.

So lets say its true cheungs story, as a gm in wc he should had the skill to trap and arrest boztepe...but to arrest without hurting or inflaming emins crowd, i imagine would be **** hard!


so what would you "the wc haters" what would you have done, if you didnt even want to spar your junior, but he wanted to hurt you to build his rep!?>

[rogue]

It's really not about the effectivness of different Wing Chun lineages, but about how a respected GM missed signals that were the size of the Hollywood sign lit up in pink neon. If you read the article Cheung doesn't take Emin very seriously and acts like it's somekind of challenge from a Run Run Shaw movie. Many think that just because they have good technique, are good in the kwoon/dojo that they'll be safe in the world. By his own account of the seminar event Cheung is the poster boy for how not to handle stand up aggression. Doesn't mean he's not a good TWC man or a bad TWC instructor, but he's not the last word on street combatives.

[Mr Punch]

OK OK I hear you all! But I'm prepared to give Cheung the benefit of the doubt because;

1) we weren't there, and we are never going to be able to get the REAL story;
2) this thread doesn't have more much to add than the other gazillion of them about this subject;
3) I practise WC!

So, I'm with Diego! Cheung neutralised the problem in such a way as he didn't get arrested, nobody got seriously hurt and he didn't have to stop the seminar...

Though I would have preferred to have done it in a rather different way!

BTW, haven't checked out the WC forum yet this morning, but there was an interestingly and newly constructive thread starting up over there on the same subject yesterday. Don't know if the venerable mods will have shut it yet, but please come on over if you are really interested in what the WCers think of it and don't just intend to flame!

[diego]

question then, who does have the technical sence for that type of situation.. lets say cheung was telling full truth, so he did eyegouge emin sweeped him then punted his temple, then emins boy jumped in cuz he doesnt want cheung to keep stomping him, another guy jumps in, then a seminar student and one of cheungs guys jump in to try and stop it, they get hit, the guys wife jumps in......thiers either a gangfight ensues and cheung and boztepe are going to jail as the masterminds!.

So taking egos out of it, whos who etc. if cheungs statements real how many real martial artists could defuse that situation?.

[rogue]

Following folk wisdom for mass attacks if Cheung took out Emin the rest would just be in shock and easily handled.:D

On the other hand Cheung went to his back, neutralized Emin and held off being attacked by Emins krew. So in light of that I guess the BJJ guys have the right idea for handling mass attacks after all. Thus making BJJ the most effective art for one on one and multiples on one. So ipso facto, BJJ Rules and Kung Fu sucks. :D :D

[Shadow Dragon]

Here is my opinion on the Incident.

BOTH parties did not act correctly or show proper skill and respect.
And I think to a degree both now regret that it ever happened.

It is also my personal opinion that 1 situation cannot show proper skill or superiority of skill on any Party.

I think the best would be to bury that Video and erase all memories of that event.

It happened many years ago, and both parties have advanced their skills to the current level.

As was said in the Lion King.

Simba: "What did you hit me for"
Monkey: " What does it matter it is i the past".
Simba: " But it still hurts."
Monkey: " Remember the pain and learn from it."

Peace.

[Mr Punch]

LOL at Rogue!

Shadow D, wassup?! You've been conspicuous by your absence for a while...

BTW, checked the WC forum and the venerable Sihing73 or someone has, in their infinite wisdom decided to delete the thread... so maybe, as intelligent discussion is too much to hope for on this subject... you should all feel free to dis the whole of WC theory, history, practice, practitioners ad nauseam, ad infinitum...!:rolleyes:

[Shadow Dragon]

Hi Mat.

Shadow D, wassup?! You've been conspicuous by your absence for a while...

Been busy. Lots of things going on at the moment.

Least of all that I am currently looking at a few kwoons to take me to the next step in my continuing MA exploration.

Peace.

[Serpent]

OK, look at it this way.

Take the context away and just look at that video without any foreknowledge of who those guys are or what the argument is. You'd think it was just two punks with no training of any kind having a brawl! Neither of them shows any real technique or fighting prowess. Cheung went down like a puss and Emin did nothing with his advantage. I remember fights in school that showed better ability.

Whatever you reckon about the politics and the people, looks to me like two punks wrassling.

[diego]

sure serpie;) but in cheungs defence he said he didnt even try, and people are saying he sucks, when if you look at it in context from the known facts, people shouldnt be mocking chueng cuz he didnt do anything & he isnt the one promoting the tape!.

[bob10]

Well he wouldn't really want to promote the tape would he, given how it looks for him.
As for not trying - is he really saying that the only way he can get out of that situation is to maim or kill someone?
If that is so, then how much use is his art for self defence?

I'm sorry, but it all just sounds like excuses to me.

[rubthebuddha]

shadow d: i don't think emin regrets anything about it because, at several of his seminars, he bragged about the thing. i've heard him start sentences with

"when i beat up william cheung ..."

at at least three of his seminars. doesn't sound much like regret to me.

[LEGEND]

OK that's just straight stupid!!! William Cheung fought and got disposed of...some of u guys are saying he didn't really fight...he was trying to neutralize Emin's strikes. BS! How the hell u're gonna neutralize someone strikes from the bottom position unless u know the BJJ GUARD??? Emin had total control of the situation and could have hurt William even more...there was no need to...he embarassed William Cheung. William Cheung has the rep. to promote himself saying he fought 30 ARMED guys before...so why would he be scared if EMIN brought 30 unarmed guys??? All it amount to is BS! The point is if u claim u're the ONLY GRANDMASTER in WING CHUN and everyone else is fraud...then expect challenges.

[Shadow Dragon]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
shadow d: i don't think emin regrets anything about it because, at several of his seminars, he bragged about the thing. i've heard him start sentences with

"when i beat up william cheung ..."

at at least three of his seminars. doesn't sound much like regret to me.

While it gave him publicity, it has also cost him quiet a bit of respect & admiration from what I hear.

Plus, I agree with Serpent, neither showed much skill from what I saw.

Also agree with Legend that if you claim certain things you must be able to back them up.

I see many MA (TMA & MMA) that claimed a lot and been called on those claims later on.

Example:
Miyamoto Musashi had a LOT of duels/fights (about 30 I think) and was an accomplished professional Soldier.

But now we got people claiming records of (700 - 0) fights by Pro-Sports players.

Peace.

[bob10]

Isn't it interesting how the GM of every system or style was "unbeaten". Who did these guys fight?

[jimmy23]

wow, such a vast quantity of BS here, where can i start?

"so what would you "the wc haters" what would you have done, if you didnt even want to spar your junior, but he wanted to hurt you to build his rep!?"

I would have beat the crap out the guy in front of me as quick as i could if i was able to, as any half way smart fighter woould. MAybe you should just stand there and let the attacker beat you to death, eh?

"On the other hand Cheung went to his back, neutralized Emin and held off being attacked by Emins krew."

No, Cheung tried to make a beginners mistake and roll over to his stomach to get up. Emein, with no submission experience, held him on his back instead of taking the armbar that was offered or taking his back and getting the choke. Both guys looked completely helpless on the ground, although emin had a tiny bit of skill.


" Cheung neutralised the problem in such a way as he didn't get arrested,"

No he didnt ! He got beat down and was helpless, if all he had wanted to do was nuetralize Emin he could have it by pulling gaurd and tying emin up. He was lost, totally lost on the ground, at one point hes on the ground, both his arms out straight, no idea at all as to how to protect himself.

"if cheungs statements real how many real martial artists could defuse that situation?."

You defuse a situation by KOing the attacker. To just let a guy beat you is not "defusing the situation"

"but in cheungs defence he said he didnt even try"

Yea, thats the oldest excuse in the book, lol@ you!

The amount of jockriding and excuse making on this thread is incredible, you guys need to wake up an rewatch the clip. seriuosly, even a three month groundfighter would have done a lot better than the "grandmaster" did. Its posts like these that hurt the kung fu community in the eyes of MMA people, just foolish, silly , clutching at straws to defend an idol.

[Shadow Dragon]

bob10.

A lot of the founders of system were invented persons or famous dead people that were credited with founding a system to give it more credibility.

Plus, Asians like to tell a good story and many stories of exploits of previous masters are not factual but were simply used as a lesson to explain a point or aspect of the Art.
Was needed as most people could not write (read yes) and that invludes some famous MA Masters, so everything was taught by words and parables/stories.

Plus, who cares what a dead Guy 200 yrs could do, you are not studying under him I hope.

As for the unbeaten GM, it is all showmanship to sell the goods.
Heck even many "modern" MA systems use them to sell their wares(Street effective, 100% sparring, Best System, etc).

Just look at how many people claim Military(Seal, Marine, LEO) connection, same in the past with training Imperial Guards.
The Imperial Court collected MA teachers to teach their guards a wide variety of MA and give them the best all-round training.
Hence, there were many MA Masters teaching at the same time at the Courts, sometimes as many as 20~30.

Many of the MA of old were also street performers, doing "impossible feats" to earn money and enhance their reputation as MA of skill.

Peace.

[rogue]

Heritic !How dare you

:D

[LEGEND]

For realz...this is ****ing me off...how the hell u neutralize someone by allowing him to beat u up???!!! What the hell is that...having studied under WILLIAM CHEUNG ORG. my rep. is one that as soon as u attack I will roll up into a ball and let u hit me??? that's called neutralization??? U sir are a MORON!!!

[diego]

Originally posted by bob10
Well he wouldn't really want to promote the tape would he, given how it looks for him.
As for not trying - is he really saying that the only way he can get out of that situation is to maim or kill someone?
If that is so, then how much use is his art for self defence?

I'm sorry, but it all just sounds like excuses to me.

Some of you posters are crackheads, think with commonsence not stereotypically, emin boztepes camp filmed and distributed that tape fully edited!.

cheung put out a letter to the wing chun gms for a traditional challenge..emin who had no right took that challenge upon himself
cheung said after the seminar sure i will entertain you we can spar Junior!.

do you people know what a traditional challenge is? a gentlemans challenge...BOOM EMIN FLIPPED SAID NO WE FIGHT ON SOME HAN ISLAND ****


Now lets all be big boys for a minute, since none of us were thier nor can we transmigrate into cheungs fucin astral history, we have no idea what were his intentions, so unless your a social retard why would you have any reason not to believe his account when its emins camp who actually made money off this tape!

Think or dont post thanx

[diego]

Originally posted by jimmy23
wow, such a vast quantity of BS here, where can i start?

"so what would you "the wc haters" what would you have done, if you didnt even want to spar your junior, but he wanted to hurt you to build his rep!?"

I would have beat the crap out the guy in front of me as quick as i could if i was able to, as any half way smart fighter woould. MAybe you should just stand there and let the attacker beat you to death, eh?

"On the other hand Cheung went to his back, neutralized Emin and held off being attacked by Emins krew."

No, Cheung tried to make a beginners mistake and roll over to his stomach to get up. Emein, with no submission experience, held him on his back instead of taking the armbar that was offered or taking his back and getting the choke. Both guys looked completely helpless on the ground, although emin had a tiny bit of skill.


" Cheung neutralised the problem in such a way as he didn't get arrested,"

No he didnt ! He got beat down and was helpless, if all he had wanted to do was nuetralize Emin he could have it by pulling gaurd and tying emin up. He was lost, totally lost on the ground, at one point hes on the ground, both his arms out straight, no idea at all as to how to protect himself.

"if cheungs statements real how many real martial artists could defuse that situation?."

You defuse a situation by KOing the attacker. To just let a guy beat you is not "defusing the situation"

"but in cheungs defence he said he didnt even try"

Yea, thats the oldest excuse in the book, lol@ you!

The amount of jockriding and excuse making on this thread is incredible, you guys need to wake up an rewatch the clip. seriuosly, even a three month groundfighter would have done a lot better than the "grandmaster" did. Its posts like these that hurt the kung fu community in the eyes of MMA people, just foolish, silly , clutching at straws to defend an idol.



so he got beat down?? he said emin didnt even connect punches in fact he said emin had no punching base, and then suppossedly but noone bothered to check before mouth****ting he said when they left he took more photos and taught the rest of the seminar


you look at it like something happenned commonsence dictates all he did was roll with emin and emin tried, cheung said the punches didnt connect and cheung didnt use a offensive attitude, some of you prolly never been in a group fight because im no soldier but cheungs account makes sence!.

[LEGEND]

Hey Diego...*******...I trained in William Cheung's camp before seeing the tape footage...I can tell u that what his camp told me back in 92 and discuss does not coincede with any of Cheung's new interview. And if u look back to previous interviews regarding the incident the story has changed over and over and over again! This is the first time I've heard WILLIAM claim to have use bil sao to deflect the mounted punches ETC. U sir are a MORON.

[LEGEND]

The fact is he got taken down and slapped around a bit! As a martial artists there is no defense or explanation other than yeahhhhh I got beat! Anyone that teaches REAL FIGHTING would teach a strike first strike hard philosophy...or take them down then kick em.

[LEGEND]

Also check this out
http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/

"In 1957 another early student of Yip Man’s, William Cheung, immigrated to Australia. On the way there an incident occurred when he locked himself in the sailor’s cabin and fought more than 10 sailors. This got into all the newspapers and so Wing Chun was even known in Australia then. About a year later, Bruce Lee left for the United States.
I guess the HK newspapers are not a reliable enough source for you. Plus, I heard about this incident from Duncan Leung's own mouth. when I re-introduced them to each other in 1984. Duncan Leung was on the ship when the fight occured and witnessed it.
I'd think that an 18 year old kid fighting 10 or more grown men while a knife is stuck in his back has to have a little fighting skill. Ya think?
That's why Bruce Lee idolized William Cheung."


YEAHHHHHHHHH RITEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

[rogue]

Diego,
I'm taking my information from the Cheung interview that was posted here. Chuengs TWC is probably very good and I've heard some nice things about him, but he screwed up during that fight. Heck in my opinion he screwed up when he did that interview for the magazine that Boztepe was carrying.

do you people know what a traditional challenge is? a gentlemans challenge...BOOM EMIN FLIPPED SAID NO WE FIGHT ON SOME HAN ISLAND **** Too bad for Chueng that his challenger didn't have that in mind but that's the way the world works. I hope GM Chueng has learned this lesson and tries to pass it on to his disciples.

[jimmy23]

"cheung put out a letter to the wing chun gms for a traditional challenge..emin who had no right took that challenge"

so cheung lost becuase Emin didnt follow CMA protocol? Thats is laughable!

"Think or dont post thanx"

Oh, Im thinking, Im thinking that a lot of CMA guys will make any excuse to defend their idols, even after seeing the weak self defense skills of a "grandmaster"

"he said emin didnt even connect punches in fact he said emin had no punching base,"

uh, did you watch the film? I saw three good punches connect. But then again, I judge professional MMA matches, so Im used to watching real fights, as opposed to others, who probably arent used to seeing what real fights consist of.

"some of you prolly never been in a group fight because"

actually, ive been in several during my bouncing days, but thats beside the point, becuase this wasnt a group fight, it was a one on one stomping

"commonsence dictates all he did was roll with emin and emin tried, "

he didnt just roll, he made a lot of amatuerish attempts to defend himself, only emins lack of submission knowledge kept Cheung from getting his arm broke or choked out.


You guys kill me, you really do, in the face of direct evidence you still refuse to believe what your eyes show you.

[rogue]

A question I wish GM Chueng would address is...
Does the fact that rooting didn't work because of the slippery surface of the fighting environment diminish the importance of a rooted stance?

[rogue]

Hey guys, let's try to keep the discussion even keeled.

[LEGEND]

ROGUE...no bro...it would have been a different fight if CHEUNG wore NIKE AIRs. YES...this is an actual statment my sifu told me!

[rogue]

LMAO!!!:D It must be great never to really be defeated. Kind of like when a sports team says we beat ourselves. No moron, the other guys kicked yo butt.

I'm not much of a Bruce Lee fan, but when his big fight didn't go well at least he considered what he did wrong and tried to fix it.

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, he shoulda worn steel toed para boots then he coulda rooted AND kicked **** outta Boz.

Legend, I'm impressed, wtf was the six-letter word you used that got *ed?!

[Serpent]

Diego, why are you defending him so much? The video is plain for all to see that neither of them showed anything like the abilities you'd expect off a senior student, let alone a "grandmaster"!

And I'm sure the shoes would have had some impact and a good grip may have helped, but a "grandmaster" should be able to deal with unsatisfactory footwear!

:rolleyes:

[Serpent]

Mat. Seven letters. I'm guessing *******. Could be ****wit.

Actually, could be a lot of things! ;)

[MA fanatic]

First of all, Boztepe was wrong in challenging someone in the middle of a seminar. Starting a fight in the middle of the seminar is both unfair to the teacher, as well as the paying students.

With that said: When William Cheung publically states that he will fight anyone, he should be prepared to "fight anyone."

The Gracies had an open challenge. So people challenged them in the middle of their seminars, and even walked into schools. I have seen Hapkido and Kung Fu fighters challenge Rorion in the middle of his seminar. He beat those guys into a pulp. Actually, the one time he took it easy on the guy, the guy got up after tapping out and asked to fight again. The same thing happened when a Russian Judo guy, Kenpo 3rd degree, and San Soo Kung Fu guy came into the Gracie Academy and posted a challenged. They got that chance. The San Soo guy asked to fight three times and was creamed all three times. The Kenpo guy fought Royler twice and lost both times. When a famouse fighter from japan came down and challenged Royce (he was actually hoping to fight Rickson...who was 10 years his senior), Rickson drove from his house and kicked the crap out of the japanese shooto fighter. So when William Cheung talks about lineage, levels, specifics of techniques he used, etc. etc., it sounds like a bunch of exuses.

He should have granted Boztepe a rematch in the United States. Showing that guy who the true Grandmaster is. All this talk of respect sounds idiotic when obviously none of these people respect one another and talk s..t about one another. Why wouldn't William Cheung just call up this Ting fellow and say, "instead of having our men do battles, why don't we just fight and see who deserves to be the true Grandmaster?" But, these guys would rather just have their fighters fight one another instead of stepping up to the challenge.
MA fanatic.

[LEGEND]

Matt...I have no idea...I don't recall cussing!

Serpent...I'm not lying either...one of the sifus stated to me if CHEUNG had been wearing NIKE or tennis shoes...the fight u see on video would have been much different! I've heard the excuses changed numerous times...first the shoes...then how William was too old...then how EMIN trained for a whole year specifically to defeat William...finally that William has successfully dispersed ALL of EMIN's strike using wing chun! OKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK...

[Serpent]

Yep. Like I said before, a couple of punks wrassling. If Cheung had on better shoes he might have stayed on his feet longer. But either way, they both looked like a couple of amatuers.

Shame really. Very embarrassing for wing chun in general.

[bob10]

Thanks SD, that's kind ofthe point I was trying to get across.

So many stories of so-and-so 200 years ago, then when it comes to it, what do you get - 2 guys in what looks like a playground fight. Real life never is like the movies huh?

[diego]

Originally posted by Serpent
Diego, why are you defending him so much? The video is plain for all to see that neither of them showed anything like the abilities you'd expect off a senior student, let alone a "grandmaster"!

And I'm sure the shoes would have had some impact and a good grip may have helped, but a "grandmaster" should be able to deal with unsatisfactory footwear!

:rolleyes:


all i am saying is you people are talking to much!. and if you didnt read the article wich is the point of this thread...HE SAID I KICKED TO PUSH HIM AWAY THE FLOOR WAS SLIPPERY SO I SLIPPED, AFTER ALL THAT I TAUGHT A SEMINAR, I DID NOT WANT TO FIGHT


who cares what rank anyone who doesnt want to fight a simple challeng match inschool "lineage" with a junior shouldnt have to!.

[diego]

Originally posted by MA fanatic
First of all, Boztepe was wrong in challenging someone in the middle of a seminar. Starting a fight in the middle of the seminar is both unfair to the teacher, as well as the paying students.

With that said: When William Cheung publically states that he will fight anyone, he should be prepared to "fight anyone."

The Gracies had an open challenge. So people challenged them in the middle of their seminars, and even walked into schools. I have seen Hapkido and Kung Fu fighters challenge Rorion in the middle of his seminar. He beat those guys into a pulp. Actually, the one time he took it easy on the guy, the guy got up after tapping out and asked to fight again. The same thing happened when a Russian Judo guy, Kenpo 3rd degree, and San Soo Kung Fu guy came into the Gracie Academy and posted a challenged. They got that chance. The San Soo guy asked to fight three times and was creamed all three times. The Kenpo guy fought Royler twice and lost both times. When a famouse fighter from japan came down and challenged Royce (he was actually hoping to fight Rickson...who was 10 years his senior), Rickson drove from his house and kicked the crap out of the japanese shooto fighter. So when William Cheung talks about lineage, levels, specifics of techniques he used, etc. etc., it sounds like a bunch of exuses.

He should have granted Boztepe a rematch in the United States. Showing that guy who the true Grandmaster is. All this talk of respect sounds idiotic when obviously none of these people respect one another and talk s..t about one another. Why wouldn't William Cheung just call up this Ting fellow and say, "instead of having our men do battles, why don't we just fight and see who deserves to be the true Grandmaster?" But, these guys would rather just have their fighters fight one another instead of stepping up to the challenge.
MA fanatic.


Wasnt that open challenge to the remaining wing chun gms under ip man?. and didnt cheung put up a challenge or 50g$ to fight ting and he declined?.

[MA fanatic]

Diego: LOL Are you asking me? I'm not sure what he did. BTW, you actually cut and paste my entire post for one question? lol I just don't know the answer. IF Yip Man was around, he should have publically restated that Cheung was the one to carry on the Wing Chun Grandmastership. Let me put it this way, if I come down to the Lion's Den and ask to fight Ken Shamrock, Shamrock would not say, "this chap is several steps under me, so I'll only fight someone my rank, etc. etc." NO. He'd kick my but and put me in the hospital. If I march into the Gracie Academy and demand to fight Rickson or I wont leave, he could soundly beat me. I can't believe these people still follow some lineage codes, provide pictures and names of instructors who are willing to fight some guy at some other guy's level. Cheung should just say, "Boztepe, you little punk, you jumped me once, how about coming down to my turf and I'll use you as a wing chun wooden dummy." Then call up Ting and say, "I took care of one of your men, I hope there wont be others or this would be an issue for the legal system. Or, just come down and we could finish our little debate as well." That's respectable. One just can't claim to be the "deadliest man" and/or say that he/she will fight anyone, and then hide behind some lineage.

As for the technical part of the fight, it's no shame going to the ground. In a real fight, technique goes right out the window. That's why cross training is crucial in case one does wind up on the ground or in a clinch or in a full nelson head lock, or fighting off a slippery turraine.

I wish someone could explain to me who after all this, Ting and Boztepe can still be respected? How come they still have some kind of cult following. Well, Boztepe may have matured and become a good master? What about Ting?

[bob10]

[bob10]

Because the mystique and allure of Chinese martial arts allows teachers to maintain their status while not actually letting anyone near them.
In this way these guys can remain "undefeated".

With a few exceptions this seems the case across the board. Of course any challenges can be dealt with by saying "oh it's not all about fighting" or the person is "not at my level", but at the end of the day they are happy to promote what they do as deadly and effective.

In fact it is so deadly, they cannot fight you without "severly hurting you" - which makes the acheivements of the Gracies even more remarkable if you think about it.

[MA fanatic]

Bob: I couldnt agree with you more. I have seen a guy challenge Rorion Gracie in the middle of his seminar. The guy said he was a Hapkido instructor. Rorion stops the seminar, has all the student sit outside the mat, allows the Hapkido guy to warm up, and when the guy is ready, Rorion defeats him in seconds. He taps the guy without a single strike. So the guy gets up and challenges Rorion again saying that he wasn't ready. Rorion beats him again, but doesn't hurt him. Just taps him. The guy gets up the third time and challenges Rorion. Rorion takes him down, the guy tries to go for Rorion's groin (which is a stupid move some Hapkido guys learn as defense against being mounted not knowing that they're exposing their neck to be choked or broken), and Rorion chokes the guy out unconsious in less than 5 seconds. Same seminar a Kung Fu guy challenged Rorion and Rorion put him away once just as fast. I once saw Vlad Vasiliev in the middle of his seminar as if anyone wants to step up and spar with him. Some guy's obviously wanted to test Vlad's skill in a more realistic way than just sparring. Vlad made sure those guys know who's boss at this seminar. Otherwise, all this talk about lineage and levels, sounds like a bunch of higherarchy where people are made out to be larger than life. For students who are easily influenced, this makes for a cult like atmoshere.
MA fanatic

[bob10]

Hi MAF

That's one thing that impressed me about Vladimir when I first met him - the willingness to let anyone try anything on him in seminars, or in class. Also to let guys that aren't his students put chokes and locks on him.
He also manages to make his point without injuring people.

I've seen one or two CMA guys with a similar approach, if not the skill, but they are few and far between.

[jimmy23]

".HE SAID I KICKED TO PUSH HIM AWAY THE FLOOR WAS SLIPPERY SO I SLIPPED"

yes i read the article, and I saw the film, and the above statement either is a lie, or chueng has no idea at all about range, since the kick came when he was being clenched.

[KC Elbows]

OK, I don't do wing chun, and could care less about cheung and bozteppe, so here's my opinion on the "fight":

-First, it WAS NOT one on one, as if it had been one on one, cheung could have just walked away. The circle of people around cheung aren't seminar attendees, plain and simple.

-As the option of just walking away should not have been seen to be an option, next cheung has to consider that he is in a foreign land facing a situation where his only options are to potentially go to jail, or get roughed up a bit.

-The tape is clearly not the entire fight, and the fact that it begins part way through the action, and is a product that is sold for cash, begs the question "what is so unprofitable about the footage BEFORE what we just viewed?"

So, what would you all do in a situation where, because of circumstance, you cannot be caught fighting, but also cannot get out of the fight? Do you think your answer will be the same when you are in your fourties?

Just curious.

[bob10]

First - it was one on one, nobody else joined in. Granted WC may not have known that, but that makes his "strategy" even odder

Two - surely a Grandmaster has the skills to control and subdue an opponent, especially one as "junior" as EB. Or is it all "deadly strikes"?

Three - well it couldn't have been anything that great as EB is still operative.

Four - I almost am in my 40's. For a start I wouldn't tout myself as the "worlds deadliest / fastest / only-I-have-the-real art" teacher.
If it comes down to legal issues - well I'm sure Germany's law on reasonable force is equivalent to the UK. As for working illegaly in the country - well, is that the sort of thing a Grandmaster should be doing?
So what would I do? Whatever I needed to protect myself, whehter physcially, verbally or whatever.

Face it, Cheung got caught out.

[KC Elbows]

"Three - well it couldn't have been anything that great as EB is still operative."

Seeing as how it's bozteppe's footage, this is pure speculation. He might still be operative because he didn't show the earlier footage. Again, it's somewhat suspicious.

"I wouldn't tout myself as the "worlds deadliest / fastest / only-I-have-the-real art" teacher."

Agreed.

"I'm sure Germany's law on reasonable force is equivalent to the UK."

I don't think challenge matches are covered under "reasonable force", and I doubt they are as forgiving for foreignors.

"As for working illegaly in the country - well, is that the sort of thing a Grandmaster should be doing?"

All the more reason for people not to use titles like that, IMO.

"So what would I do? Whatever I needed to protect myself, whehter physcially, verbally or whatever."

Legally as well?


"Face it, Cheung got caught out."

The guy finished the seminar, which pretty much tells ya that Bozteppe couldn't have caused any real harm, which means, as we all already determined many months ago, this was a fight with all losers, and no winner.

[Rolling Elbow]

LOL,

I've met Vlad Vasiliev and trained at one of his seminars. You'd be an absolute IDIOT to challenge him or try to even get your hands around him!

I agree, Cheung should have done better and should DEFINITELY have called both Botzepe and Ting to a rematch to be viewed by the world or world wing chun council. Bear knuckle wing chun scrap. That would have done tons to legitimize the art..then again, untouchable masters are more afraid of the effects on their wallets if their reputation is tarnished! I mean, Yip Man taught many people..many people could have stayed on long enough to be considered masters...BUT how many masters were really fighters? That's another question. I have heard Cheung was tough and Ting was tough...I think we'd all appreciate PROOF of this.

[Rolling Elbow]

P.S-

Rules and laws only apply if someone is there to report them. Both men would have shut their yaps...Cheung should have charged Botzepe with assault if he was going to use that excuse.

[rubthebuddha]

any truth to the rumours that emin challenged wc again? would be interesting, because cheung is about 20 years older.

honestly, it has no real merit. i'm a faithful wt guy, but i freely admit that anyone who touts themselves better be darn ready to prove it. and that's why i respect the gracies -- if someone says, i want some of that, they freely give.

and give.

and give.

and give.

it's good that the gracies aren't notorious sodomists, because the kicking of ass could change into something else even more compromising very quickly. :eek:

[diego]

Rolling Elbow, what i got from relayed facts, Cheung wasnt assualted just jumped on, then dusted himself off and finished the class...So no real need to call the cops!.

Does anyone know originally why this happenned?, what i read cheung put the challenge out saying ipman taught everyone from wongshunleung to all the other seniors modified wing chun, and his TWC is the true fighting skill from ipman....Did he say his style is the best and can beat anyone even gracies, or did he say his style and he is the best of ipmans students, and anyone who directly learnt from mr ip could step up to certify rank...noone did except a junior jumps him!.


Now Marketing and whateverwhatever/ maybe ipman did tell him that twc is real to make him feel good?; why didnt anyone like wongshunleung take up the challenge?.

[Rolling Elbow]

Probably because they new that what Yip did teach them may not have been what he taught Cheung, but I suspect that yip Man taught each student according to their capacity, their body type, their level of agression, their martial intelligence, and their skill. I suspect that most other men could not be bothered because they enjoyed training, they enjoyed teaching, and having a huge world organization really didn't appeal to them. Furthermore, why bother fighting someone if the outcome could discredit you..I think sometimes we forget that our teachers don't have to be the absolute best fighers in the world. They only have to be good enough themselves to teach us how to become competent martial artists within the confines of our own limitations and how to pass on the art for generations to come by helping others to do the same.

[rubthebuddha]

****it, rolling elbow, you're as irritating as apoweyn when you're right. :mad:

;)

[LEGEND]

Hawkin Cheung( William's cousin ) mention that William was using this as a MARKETING PLOY! The others I heard just laughed it off. Unfortunately...EMIN didn't.

[Rolling Elbow]

http://www.windycitywingchun.com/images/mt18.jpg

Lol, could Emin pose anymore for this foto? Its not a Mister Universe competition is it?..pump those Lats!!!!

[tnwingtsun]

What many here do not know that this wasen't just between Emin and Cheung.


Cheung had (at the time) stepped over the line with many of his
Si-hings.

VT/WC and WT top guys in Hong Kong got together before this even went down to discuss how to solve the problem they were having with Cheung at the time,they asked Cheung many times
to stop what he was doing and saying.

He did not.

Emin was chosen and instructed to calm down Cheung but to take it easy on him.

Which is what he did,it was to prove a point,not bash Chung's skull in.

Afterwards both sides made their cases and Emin was put in the lime light,he rode that train as far as it would go,before he was pretty much unknown outside of German WT circles.

Mean while back in Hong Kong the WC and VT elders kept quite
about not chosing to take sides(smart move on thier part).

FACT-Cheung was not jumped from behind.

FACT-Emin warned Cheung(after he showed Cheung's challange to fight anyone,anywhere) that he was going to attack him on a count and to get ready.

FACT-Emin brought people with him so he wouldn't get jumped by any of Cheung's students,note,none of Emin's people jumped in to help him,they were simply watching his back.

FACT-Emin was TOLD to take it easy on Cheung,which is what he did.

From reading this thread I've come to the conclusion that most here don't know the facts and those who do choose to stay silent.

FACT-I've crossed hands with both Cheung and Emin,I like WT better but at the same time Cheung has alot to offer.

Question,has anyone here trained with both??

If not then your opions on this matter are without merit.

To the people that call Emin a "Bozo",or Cheung a "washed-up-has-been",go train with both of these guys and find out for yourselves without the inmature armchair quarter backing and hearsay.

Neither one of these guys are heros to me,but they both have
good tools to share.


red5angel(Wing Chun Board guy),


you and I have had some friendly posts in the past,I'm dissipointed that you would call Emin a "Thug" and say his KF is no good,go train with him and then come back with your facts,lol,I dare ya JARHEAD,don't wanna stick your foot in your mouth?:D

Semper-Fi

[MA fanatic]

I haven't trained with either man, but I do have an opinion on openly challenging people in the middle of their seminar. I also have an opnion on posting open challenges and being ready for someone to call your bluff. I train all the time, and perhaps any one of the men mentioned above could beat me with one arm tied behind his back, but that still doesn't excuse this childish behavior. Seems like we have individuals who are so concerned with politics and seniority, they're willing to do what ever it takes to embarrass and exploit one another. That's why I'm glad sports like NHB are around. These guys back up what they know and are willing to fight to prove it. If I train at the Lion's Den, I know the instructor had tested his skills against other instructors. If I train at the Gracie Academy, I know my instructors have tested, and continue to test their skills against other top notch world class fighters. Here we have talk of lineage, seniority, which form was passed down to who when, who learned the true WC from Yip Man, etc. etc. It sounds like a staffing at a hospital rather than individuals teaching proven combat techniques. From what I heard, Yim Man was a great fighter. I wonder what he would think had he lived to see WC treated this way. There has to come a time when individuals don't hide behind tittles, but say, "I'm a legit grandmaster, and if you have something to say about it, just come on over."
MA fanatic
PS RollingMedows: Vlad is absolutely one of the toughest guys I ever saw. When I met him, he was much bigger (taller) and looked much stronger than he does on his videos. Yet, the speed and accuracy with which he moved blew me away. At the seminar I attended, several people wanted to test Vlad's skills against armed assailants, hand to hand, and even on the ground. One guy actually just asked to mount Vlad to see if Vlad could get out. Vlad tapped the guy out with an ankle lock he put on with his feet, while the guy mounted him. One guy was pretty rude and Vlad had no problem respectfully showing him who was the boss on the mat.

[bob10]

But lineage is king in the CMA these days isn't it? Big arguements about who taught who what, every school has its own family tree, disagreements on who is the "real" keeper of the family jewels.

The amount of squabbling and rivalry within the same "family line" is amazing. And like anyone outside really cares?

[MA fanatic]

I think the modern masters forget that originators of all styles were inovators. They were not concerned with leneage and seniority. They were concerned with combat. Every style I have read about, has an original master who at some point tested him/herself. Granted, human bodies have changed. Human needs have changed. Also, we're living in the golden years of martial arts where we're exposed to more combat sports and arts from all over the world. Had the originators of many CMA been around today, they wouldn't be concerned with which form was taught to who when. They would be concerned with incorporating grappling, Korean kicking, Muay Thai kicking and hand strikes, judo like throws, etc. etc. I think now, its all about tittles and business. Money and products. Monthly fees, and stories of deadly skills. I'm sure half the originators of these systems would laugh and/or cringe at what is going on these days. All had the same goal. It was combat. And, that is what they would have been concerned with now. Yet, as generations passed, the modern masters seemed to have fooled themselves into believing that a piece of paper is equal to skill. How depressing and actually
disrespectful to the men who devoted their lives to developing techniques (to the best of their ability and exposure to other skills) they could use for self defense.
MA fanatic

[rubthebuddha]

<piping up> ahem.

don't forget the women founders. (ng mui of wc/wt/vt being one of the most well-known).

:)

but your point is well taken. did the cheung/boztepe thing come from a need for combat?

nah.

self-defense?

nah.

stupidity and ego?

ring-a-ding-ding. :mad:

[tnwingtsun]

"ring-a-ding-ding."



When the WT split happened I felt no need to take sides and
still feel no need.

If Leung Ting is close by and I have the chance I go train with him.

Same goes for Emin.

I'm lucky that I have others close by that I can train with who
teach skills on a level just as high as both above.


"stupidity and ego?"

Who cares:rolleyes:

[rubthebuddha]

tnwingtsun,

can't blame you. they're both good at what they do. but i don't consider emin an option because of personal reasons. emin's burned quite a few bridges in his time, one of them being with me.

and luck on teachers? same story here.

the whole thing just frickin sucks, though. last thing yip man's descendents needed was another split.

and as far as stupidity and ego? 15 years ago, cheung was swimming in it, and emin eventually got his own piece. i still think that, prime cheung on prime emin, emin's got his number.

[Asia]

I read the same arguements OVER and OVER, this issue keeps coming up annually!. After watching 2 videos (the Emin one and the supposed UNEDITED one) I still have the same opinion over the years.


This was a sloppy excuse for a fight. Both men showed little skill or experience in being in a fight. I am sorry but if someone got in my face an told me he was going to fight me I would NEVER turn my back and walk away. I learned that at a young age. Their is NO EXCUSE for this. They formed a ring aroung him. Did it ever occur to call for help? I mean there were other pple at the seminar just getting them aware of what is going on would have helped his situation. I wouldn't call that a beat down. Neither man suffered any real damage, except to ego and rep.

Emin had the advantage and didn't capitalize on it from the start. Emin boasting about this is stupid. If I jumped someone and he didn't get hurt then something went wrong. I would have called him on this if he got started. "When I fought Cheung.." "Exuse me you jumped the guy and he still finished to seminar with no visible signs of there ever being a fight. YOU SUCK! When you jump someone you got to do it right. Sit down and here is a lesson on Ambush 101"

Cheung makes sad excuses, "I was in a forgien country and didn't want to go to jail." Funny I LIVE in that same forgein country and have lived here during the 70's, 80's, 90's, and 00's and been in SEVERAL fights in said country. AS A AMERICAN (which usually works against you) and the polezei will go more after the one who STARTED the fight. If you can prove that you were just defending yourself you will generally be let go.

He didn't want to fight a junior and that Emin didn't know how a TRADITIONAL Challenge went. This really strikes me as odd. Form my research and travels a junior that got to uppity would have been smacked down in the "olden days" this would have been an EXTREME insult and would not have been tolerated. Emin would have been beat down by the GM especially after getting IN his face and telling him he was going to fight him. This is culuturally universal all through most asian countries. And it generally goes on today, I know this PERSONALLY.

Chueng sites his shoe as a problem. I can give him a little credit for this because I know how slippery KF shoe are especially on that kind of floor. But knowing this i would have tailored my movents carefully.

No one really got hurt. From the looks of it Emin didn't land in real damaging shots and some were deflected and Emin would try to move Chueng's hand out the way.

The "didn't even try" excuse doesn't make sense. I have dealt with pple that I didn't really want to hurt, like guys who had too much to drink. I got into an incident with a friend and I didn't want to really hurt him but when the bugger didn't want to listen to reason I launched him 10 feet (we were going down hill and if I had paid attention to the wind and his aerodynamics I think I could have made 15 easy) I can't see me taking a beat down at the expense of not wanting to hurt someone else.


This whole thing is silliy. I need another beer!

[Tigerstyle]

I have nothing relevant to add to this thread :p , but I just wanted to say that this quote had me ROFLOL:

QUOTE (by LEGEND):
"The fact is he got taken down and slapped around a bit! As a martial artists there is no defense or explanation other than yeahhhhh I got beat!"

LOL!

[rubthebuddha]

why didn't cheung just use the best excuse ever for getting beaten:

I was drunk. :o

[Crow1981]

Vladimir Vasiliev vs BOTH Cheung and Emin (at the same time, working together in the same team). One vs Two.

Rolling Elbow and MA Fanatic, what do you guys think? Hypothetically that is.

I'll go for Vladimir. He is just awesome!! No offence intended to Cheung and Emin. I'm sure they're really skilled fighters, eventhough it doesn't really show in the 1985 video. Currently, Emin is suppose to be really fast and aggressive.

[bob10]

Well I know that Vladimir doens't really care for such speculation.

And let's face it, he has had the best professional training, there are not many even full time MAists who can go through that sort of thing, so in some ways it's not a fair comparison