Doc Fai Wong answers to the forum.

[JAZA]

I just found it looking the web, I´m not representing him.

answers (http://www.plumblossom.net/Articles/Answers.htm)

[kfwisdom]

He definitely put out some of the fires and made some good points. My only question is about his teachers ranking him and giving him a certificate that titled him as "Grandmaster." Does his teachers speak English and what was the Chinese title they awarded him with that translate to "Grandmaster" in English? I don't believe there is a direct translation from Chinese to English for "Grandmaster", only reference may be Jerng Moon Yun. I'm sure they didn't award him the Jerng Moon Yun title.

Any comments?

[extrajoseph]

In the certificate issued by Wong Kong,

http://www.plumblossom.net/Grandmaster/CLFGmcertificate.jpg

the Chinese title is "Deug Gao Si", which can be literally translated as Supervisor of Teachers.

What this means is that DFW can certify other students as teachers with this title in Wong Kong's CLF association.

[k-no]

Now we're picking on Doc Fai Wong.

"Supervisor of Teachers" implies superiority over plain and simple "Teacher". And if teacher="master" in the US, then....obviously he can't put himself on that level when there are different tiers.

Although it doesn't translate directly to "grandmaster", we can see how it would be fit, and Wong Doc Fai already provided ample reasons for doing so.

Even though I disagree with some of his "organization's" history, all this meaningless rabble about titles has gone on too long. The man even made an explanation for his slow forms for God's sake!

I'll start bothering him when he starts calling himself "Supreme Grandmaster of the Universe". Until then, his organization's relatively small participation in other CLF events makes the witch hunt a little unnecessary.

k

[yik-wah-tik]

i am glad jimmy wong has come out to dispell rumors.

but jimmy wong (doc fai) hasn't dealt with fut san hsk. if anyone should know the dates about jeong yim is fut san. his birthplace is known, his village is known, there are photos backing this up.
the full history hasn't come out yet. you have only seen the abridged version. the information is now out there and available for you to read. you just have to look.

now on our website information, it will be stated here that the plum blossom federation has basically plagerized (forgive my misspelling) our info on lau bun vertually word for word, text type and language. the thing about the net is that anyone can claim that they did it first. so sure wong si-sook, we will let you tell the story that your organization never stole the info right off our website, and inserted your name there.

if the rest of you want to believe what jimmy wong is claiming, then go ahead. its your choice.

oh have any of you out there bought the video of my sifu dino salvatera that is not on ebay? isn't his moves so pretty? i will say this to the guy selling the photo.........Peter, this is frank, and if i find out that you are selling any footage of the video i let you make a copy of, you and i will be speaking soon. you have no permission to sells these tapes without my sifu's permission.
so i will be talking to you. remember, you gave me your verbal promise that "you will never reproduce these tapes" if i find out you start selling the other video your ass is mine!!!!!!!


*****oh, one last thing. i want to say this to set it straight. Professor lau Bun passed away only a short few years after jimmy wong started with him. professor lau was suffering from illness, old age, and a hernia, so how did jimmy wong learn lau buns um ying kuen? who actually taught it to him?

on the issue of my sigung changing techniques in the forms, jew leong began studying uner lau bun in 1941. jimmy wong in the mid 60's. thats more that 20 years difference. times change. so how does a very junior student to jew leong know what and how lau bun taught 20 years before he even got there. so maybe its jimmy wong who has the modified sets?

lau bun was known for changing sets to fit a persons build and talents. just as one of the female students of lau bun had and full body backward bridge( susan lam) added to her sup ji form. hmmm, i wonder if jew leong put that there? or maybe, just maybe was it lau bun himself? i guess we will never know because no one today is alive that can testify to this other than jew leong, the one of the most very senior student of lau buns still alive today.

frank mccarthy
hung sing kwoon

[yik-wah-tik]

whats up k-no? hows everything?

will you be going to the malaysia hung sing gathering in november? i will be there. i am going by myself.

frank

[extrajoseph]

"but jimmy wong (doc fai) hasn't dealt with fut san hsk. if anyone should know the dates about jeong yim is fut san. his birthplace is known, his village is known, there are photos backing this up."

I have personally checked out the birthplace of Jeong Yim as nominated by Futsan HSK and no one in the village has heard of him. He may have stayed there for a while but he was not born there. I have also been to the grave area (Jueng Gwang Shan) where he was suppose to be buried according to Futsan HSG but we could not find his grave. Don't take my word for it, check it out next time you are in China.

Check also the dates and places with what the Singapore HSK and Futsan HSK said about Jeong Yim's birth and death and you will also find discrepancies there.

Personal attacks like the one you are doing on DFW is not going to encourage friendships within the CLF fraternity, so why bother to go to KL? They are suppose to have a meeting there to work out how to create more harmony in CLF, according to their invitations.

JosephX

[extrajoseph]

My attempt at translating the Chinese characters in DFW's certificates is not an attack on him but a mean to clarify the issue of translating the term "grandmaster" from Chinese.

In the certificate issued by the Tai Chi Chuan World Federation,

http://www.plumblossom.net/Grandmaster/TaiChiGmcert.jpg

the Chinese portion literally translated as him being accepted as a life member of the association and doubled as the Chairperson of the American Chapter and a "Zeb Gao Dai Si".

Zeb Gao means a person who is given the task to teach or a licensed teacher and Dai Si means a Great Master or a Great Teacher. Dai Si is normally used in Buddhist context to denote a great teacher, it is the closest translation to mean Grandmaster if grand means the same as great and master has the same meaning as an experienced teacher.

[alecM]

Frank, I think you should take the plagiarism of your website more as a compliment than a theft of your work. After all the main reason put info on the net is to share the info we have. At leased that’s the lesson I’ve learned.
Although I would really like to meet up with some of my fellow CLF practitioners in Malaysia I just cant afford the trip. I’m saving my money for a trip to china sometime in the future possibly Fut San I hope.
However my sifu one of his sons and couple of my si-dai with be making the trip the gathering in Kuala Lumpur.

[k-no]

How's it going Frank? Been having to hustle here and there because the job offers haven't been so forthcoming. Had to cut back on training quite a bit, just working on putting on some muscle when I can and maintaining endurance. Soon as I get a job I'll be back on some hard daily training....so that means Malaysia will pretty much be a luxury I can't afford right now. Enjoy the trip, and try to not travel alone when looking for "mushu", you can still get rolled...

k

[Hiram]

I recall reading his book some time ago. However, I don't remember Master Wong citing the sources that refute the Hung Sing version.

I am not sure why he didn't try (at least) to consult with Fat Shan HSK to get their side of the story. The truth is usually found by taking two sides and grinding them together.

Though, it's a lot harder than simply writing a book stating that someone is wrong :p

[small]

Hi Hiram,

You make a good point. It is typical in social sciences to cite competing theories.
I disagree with your statement about the truth though. In most cases, if you take two sides and grind them together you just have a third side that is bound to be less accurate than one or the other or both -- unless you omit everything they disagree on, which results in a loss of information.


Originally posted by Hiram
I recall reading his book some time ago. However, I don't remember Master Wong citing the sources that refute the Hung Sing version.

I am not sure why he didn't try (at least) to consult with Fat Shan HSK to get their side of the story. The truth is usually found by taking two sides and grinding them together.

Though, it's a lot harder than simply writing a book stating that someone is wrong :p

[extrajoseph]

Talking about plagiarism, in the home page of the American Hung Sing Kwoon, they had a couplet written by Chan Heung as "authored by Jeung, Hung Sing":

http://hungsing.com/index2.htm

Contrary to what the webpage says, the first 2 words read across the couplet do not say strong=graceful, they say "ying hung", meaning ''a hero". It is a reference to the "Heroic Victory" Hung Sing of Chan Heung and not to the "Glorious Victory" Hung Sing of Jeung Yim when he went to Futsan.

CLF students should know their history and realize that there are 3 names for Hung Sing - the "Great Sage", the "Heroic Victory" and the "Glorious Victory" Hung Sing. They all sounded the same and are written the same way in English but not in Chinese. In Chinese they have different characters and have different meanings and history as mentioned earlier.

[Hiram]

I've also seen it translated as "sacred goose"!

[JAZA]

and where are your version proofs Hiram?

[extrajoseph]

The first character in Futsan Hung Sing, hong in mandarin, has 3 meanings, 1) a goose or a swan, 2) a surname, 3) glorious or grand. The second character, Sheng in mandarin, can mean 1) winning, 2)surpass or equal to, 3) victory or success.

So a less flattering translation could be a "Victorious Goose" or a "Winning Swan".

Hiram, I have not heard of the character "Sheng" to mean sacred, unless you have mixed up the first character of Futsan Hung Sing with the second character of King Mui Hung Sing and that would resulted in a "Sage Goose" or "Sacred Goose". As har as I know, no one uses this combination.

Interesting enough, we can play with the various characters and come up with more combinations that still pronounced "Hung Sing", like "Great Victory" by mixing the first character of "Great Sage" with the second character of "Heroic Victory" or "Glorious Victory" Hung Sing; or "Heroic Sage" by mixing the first character of "Heroic Victory" with the second character of "Great Sage" Hung Sing.

Fortunately, history dictated there are only 3 combinations of characters for Hung Sing when in theory we could have 6.

[CLFNole]

Sisuk Joseph:

I have always wondered why there are two Hung Sing's for the Chan Hueng side. I realize the first was from Chan Hueng's family and the 2nd pertains mainly to non-direct family after Chan Koon Pak, but why the name change. Wouldn't it have been looked upon as disrespectful for changing the name. I mean its the same style not a different branch.

Cheong Yim's Hung Sing is a branch of CLF as many like to say and the forms can differ somewhat so I can understand the different Hung Sing, sort of.

I really wonder why the Hung Sing changed at all and why they didn't just all stick with the original.

Peace.

[JAZA]

The Ng family have a versions in their website for the reason why Chan Koon Pak change the names.
Ng family website link (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/choylayfut_lineage/chankoonpak.htm)

[extrajoseph]

CLFNole,

As far as I know, Chan Koon Pak did not changed the name Hung Sing from Great Sage to Heroic Victory Hung Sing, Chan Heung did. As for the real reasons behind the name chane you have to ask the Chan Family members, I have been told this part of the history is well documented in the family manuscript.

JosephX