What is this symbol?

[Serpent]

I would post a link, but I can't seem to find one online. I'm wondering about the symbol that is a bit like a yin yang but rather than being made of two 'tear drop' type things inside a circle, it's made of three, with no spots in them. Dunno if I'm making any sense here... I think it's a Taoist symbol, but that could be completely wrong.

Anybody have a clue what I'm talking about?

:confused: :eek: :confused:

[Felipe Bido]

I think it's a japanese symbol

[Serpent]

OK. That's already more than I knew! Any more info than that? Does it have a name I can search on?

[TaoBoy]

Have a look on www.symbols.com (http://www.symbols.com).

[Serpent]

Hmmm. I can't seem to find it there. Although those are all western symbols. Thanks for the tip though.

Any other suggestions?

[TaoBoy]

Is this it?

http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/32/324.html

[Serpent]

Ooh! That's very close. It's just like that except there's three of the 'seed' thingos, not just two.

[Mr Punch]

Is it the next one on that list you're talking about, Serpent?

tomoye (http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/32/325.html)

The tomoye is everywhere over here: it's a common heraldic symbol on kendoka's bougu (armour) for example, and it's all over many temples, along with the sauvastika or

manji (http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/15/155.htmlhttp://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/15/155.html)

which seems a lot more common here (it's used on maps to denote a temple) than the also quite often occuring swastika:

oh come on, you know this one! (http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/15/151.html)

[Serpent]

Aha! That's the bugger!

So, it's called a tomoye? Thanks a lot guys, you're all diamond geezers!

[dezhen2001]

it also looks similar to a heraldic symbol (mon) used by many different schools. I think the diety of Hachimon (sp?) or something like that... it's also used to represent some Okinawan styles of Karate etc. That's what i've seen anyway :)

david

[David Jamieson]

The symbol is found in the centre of the Tibetan "Dharma wheel" and is on the cover of the version of the book "The Tibetan book of the dead (a.ka. Bardo Thodol)" that contains a preface by Carl Jung.
click here to see the cover:
http://chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=Books&Section=Books&Cat=&Lang=en&Item=978019500223&mscssid=1FMD91Q3CGL68LU20QBBW7NV8B6Q51X1&WSID=1507EA278488C12A4439AF92AFABECD3F9A65529

The dharma wheel sits at the entrance to the Potala in Lhasa Tibet, it has been there for quite some time.

I am not certain how the symbol came to be used by the Japanese, although it is likely that it arrived in Japan with Buddhism.

peace

[Serpent]

Thanks Kung Lek, that's great. What's the name of the symbol in Tibetan, any idea?

[TaoBoy]

Bugger! If I'd read your post properly in the first place I would have got the answer straight to you (my instructor has an amulet with this symbol - he wears it all the time). :rolleyes:

He always refers to it as the seeds of the universe...

[diego]

Next Question: arent those two teardrop thingys in the yinyang symbol, arent they 2fishes!?>

[TaoBoy]

They are often referred to as two fishes...but I've never read anything that says they *are* two fishes (I hope that makes sense). The best explaination I have found says the symbol shows the sunny/shady sides of a mountain.

But, I think it's all just terminology used to explain the concept.

Anyone else?

[GeneChing]

A 3-axis circle is called a triskelion - http://codesign.scu.edu/dkweb/symbols.html - it your remember the original Star Trek series, there was a gladitorial episode called Gamesters of Triskelion where they had to fight inside these patterns. Lord I loved that show.

It's actually fairly close to one of my family crest on my Japanese side. Three lobes are often the symbol of a thundercloud and thusly adorn armour and taiko drums.

Which brings up an odd question, I have this Yin Yang that is three lobed - picture a typical Yin Yang, but instead there are three lobes that are red, green and gold. I've found it on many Tibetan artifacts, but I don't know it's actualy root. some one once told me it was Yin Yang Yum, but I've not been able to verify it - I doubt that myself.

[Mr Punch]

I've heard it called the triskelion before, and the triang, but I understood these to be more Western versions, as befits your link Gene. There are many many three-unity type symbols in world cultures... many 'holy trinities'.

I figure this one started in India/Persia and migrated Eastward, hitting Japan before the Buddhists, I would think... It is one of the oldest components to some of the oldest mon (family crests/heraldic symbols) in Japan, and is deeply connected to Shintoism, which has untraceable roots, but arguably shares some background with Buddhism as well as pre-Buddhist animism.

The Shinto deity Hachiman is associated with War, and of course Victory! The symbol isn't necessarily directly linked but does seem to be often associated with Hachiman and Okinawan karate among many other budo traditions. The Okinawan link would suggest a greater connection with Buddhism after all... hmmm, I don't know again! I'll ask around.

I've often wondered about the Tibetan yin-yang triang too, and I've heard it called yin yang yum too, but from a very dubious source...!

[Shadow Dragon]

Little bit of backtracking on this Thread.

Swastika vs Svaustika.
Omote Manji vs Ura Manji

Both are basically the same Religous symbols, but are the opposite of each other.

Omote Manji stands for mercy, love & gooddness, hence it is used to mark Temples on Maps and is part of the Shorinshi Kempo Logo. And also used for Buddhist shrine decoration.

Ura Manji stands for strength and intelligence and and and is a mirror image of the manji.

The German National socialistic parties
Swastika (Ura Manji)was put on one point(rotated 45 degrees).

Not many people know that the center intersection lines(cross) represent Yin & Yang and thus the center of the Manji represent Wuji (the beginning and end of everything).

In Asia Normally both symbols are used side by side or jsut the Omote Manji.


In the West the "Manji" stands for:
Light, Life, Liberty & Love.
And was considered a sign of good Fortune.

Actually it is very easy to tell the 3 different symbols apart.

Peace.

P.S.: I will ask someone about the other Symbol.

[Mr Punch]

Sorry Shadow, I disagree!

I've heard this interpretation before, but there is no definite proof to suggest that the swastika was ever bad. It has been suggested that it was a Hindu (and before) symbol of male power, maybe related to the ancient Persian concept (Zorastrian?) of the male stretching upwards to reach the heavenly female (note: the opposite to yin/yang!) and therefore yearning and sadness at the unattainable. Bloody women always had the upper hand !:D

It also seems to have developed independently in the West... but maybe this too came from a migration of Indo-Europeans originally. It features in one of the oldest futhark (Scandinavian/ancient Germanic runic alphabets) in existance, but to me seems out of place in design from the other letters... I think the oldest futhark goes back to about 400 BC, and the use of the swastika in the west predates this, maybe suggesting a different tradition.

I have heard the manji explained as a (pre?)Hindu symbol of female power too, but I have no evidence to support this.

It would seem to me that they are maybe the same symbol and there is little or no significance to their opposite aspects. With regards to Japanese temples, although the manji seems a lot more common, I have seen the swastika too, and I have seen both on their points (check out Sensoji's Kaminari-mon in Asakusa, the underside of the lantern, for a start, off the top of my head).

BTW: Kung Lek, that's a pretty funky Tibetan triang link you've got there! That'd look nice on an orange kung-fu uniform!!;)

[Shadow Dragon]

Mat.

Negative & Positive do NOT have the same meaning in Asian beliefs system as they do in the West.
Normally they are an integral part of the same thing, just depends from which side you are looking at it.

Get your fortune told at a Shinto or Buddhist shrine and read careful and you will see that a Negative fortune might be more advantageous than a positive fortune.

Peace.

[dre]

I'm pretty sure that that symbol is on my copy of the Hagakure.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Shadow Dragon
Mat.

Negative & Positive do NOT have the same meaning in Asian beliefs system as they do in the West.
Normally they are an integral part of the same thing, just depends from which side you are looking at it.

Get your fortune told at a Shinto or Buddhist shrine and read careful and you will see that a Negative fortune might be more advantageous than a positive fortune.

Peace.

Have done, and I agree with the concept of duality being integrated in Japan (and some other Eastern tradition but I don't know those so well). But what's the opposite of 'mercy, love and goodness'? I don't think it's 'strength and intelligence'! Maybe it's just the way you put it...?

[Shadow Dragon]

Ok here goes the research so far.

The Tomoye Symbol appears to be of Shinto origin and is supposed to represent the spinning Universe.

Similar to the Manji/Swastika which is also called "Whirlwind".

There also seems to a suggested Okinawan Version and was supposedly used by the King there.
Apparently it repesents the 3 areas that compose Okinawa when it was still called RyuKyu, hence some OMA styles use it as well.

Found references to Yin and Yang, but no Yum.

Peace.

[David Jamieson]

The yin yang symbol represent diametrical opposition of all things in the universe as we are able to comprehend it and as corporeal beings are able to understand it.

And so, we use symbols to express huge concepts, such as this.

Yin Yang represents the opposition and complimentary attributres of things like light/dark correct/incorrect man/ woman and so on. Our innate human tendency is to relate to things by knowing not what they are, but what they are not. Without an "are not" it is difficult for us to "define" and understand a given physical truth or concept.

With the "triple" representation of the spinning of the galaxy, we can find a clue in the Tao Te Ching.

One gives birth to Two, Two give Birth to Three and Three gives birth to the "ten thousand" things.

The "triskelion" or any of it's other names represents the universe in it's most primordial relationships of the three things flowing together to create or manifest all other things in the universe. It also represents the actual physical structure of the galaxy we live in which is now known as a spitral bar galaxy. Go figure how the ancients came across this tidbit of information.

If we look to Hinduism, this is also expressed within it's teachings and as well in many other philosophicxal understandings of the universe and the components that comprise it and their direct relationship to each of us as individuals and all things living or dead, in motion or not in motion.

peace

[Radhnoti]

Kung Lek - "It also represents the actual physical structure of the galaxy we live in which is now known as a spitral bar galaxy. Go figure how the ancients came across this tidbit of information."

Ok, mighty moderator...not that I'm doubting here...but how/where did you get that little tidbit if you don't mind my asking?
:confused: :)

[David Jamieson]

We live in a giant spiral galaxy, the Milky Way Galaxy, of 100,000 light years diameter and a mass of roughly a trillion solar masses. The nearest dwarf galaxies, stellites of the Milky Way, are only a few 100,000 light years distant, while the nearest giant neighbor, the Andromeda Galaxy, also a spiral, is about 2-3 million light years distant.

This is freely distributed scientific info that can be garnered from many sources, such as your local planetarium, library, university or an astro physics lab of your choice :D

also


peace
As a galaxy, the Milky Way is actually a giant, as its mass is probably between 750 billion and one trillion solar masses, and its diameter is about 100,000 light years. Radio astronomial investigations of the distribution of hydrogen clouds have revealed that the Milky Way is a spiral galaxy of Hubble type Sb or Sc. Therefore, out galaxy has both a pronounced disk component exhibiting a spiral structure, and a prominent nuclear reagion which is part of a notable bulge/halo component. It is still not clear if it has a bar structure (so that it would be type SB) or not, but an increasing number of investigations has given some evidence for this, so that the Milky Way may look like M61 or M83, and is perhaps best classified as SABbc.

[Stone Monkey]

Originally posted by Mat

...It also seems to have developed independently in the West... but maybe this too came from a migration of Indo-Europeans originally. It features in one of the oldest futhark (Scandinavian/ancient Germanic runic alphabets) in existance, but to me seems out of place in design from the other letters... I think the oldest futhark goes back to about 400 BC, and the use of the swastika in the west predates this, maybe suggesting a different tradition.

The Swastika in pre-WW2 Germany was developed as a symbol for the NSDAP (Nat. Socialist German Worker's Party), influenced by the heavy Neo-Romantic/Teutonic mythology, etc. that was prevelent in Germany at the time. High ranking Nazi officials, most notably Himmler, were aware of several 'Runemasters' in Germany at the time (eg. Kummer and Marby). The 18th rune GIBOR (I'm not sure what futhark) was identified as a concealed swastika (the top/bottom arms were not yet bent) by Guido Von List and at the suggestion of Hitler was adopted as the symbol of the NSDAP in 1920. Another Runemaster (known as 'Himmler's Rasputin') named Karl Maria Willigut (amongst other aliases) designed the SS Death's Head runic rings. The SIG rune, used as the 'S' in the SS symbol is a victory rune, TYR was the rune of struggle, OTHIL - the symbol of blood and soil and HAGAL was the rune of savation (racial purity).

The German Swastika as we know it was (in my understanding) a runic representation of Thor's hammer (Mjollner) rotating through the air (bolts of lightning). This symbolized both the violence of the storm, and the cleansing purity after the storm recedes... :eek:

Hope that is of some interest to someone.

[David Jamieson]

Regarding the Nazi party and their "liberal" use of ancient symbology. Yes it is true. they sought to connect themselves to ancient concepts that would endear them to the german public and make what they were doing seem "OK" to the public by giving it an almost religious appeal.

The swastika is found all over the world in North american Native peoples cultural icons, buddhism, hunduism, egyptian, and the list goes on and on.

The Nazis did indeed use Runes in their uniform dressings. And Hitler persued membership in a number of mystic lodges in an attempt to obtain the wisdom of the ages. It is said he even went so far as to send researchers to all ends of the earth to find the "illuminati" and acquire from them, the wisdom of the ages to ensure his success in the creation of his thousand year reich.

Can you say "nutso"?

He was said to have possessed the spear of Longinus, a relic that was the reputed spear to have pierced Christ on the cross. He also absconded with every relic and sacrament he could get his hands on as he plundered his way across europe and africa during ww2.

many of these items were returned to the lodges they were stolen from since the war, but quite a few are no doubt sitting in peoples attics and hidden away by the families of nazis or soldiers who in turn plundered the nazi strongholds.

anyway, it is an example of employing good for bad.

peace

[Stone Monkey]

The Nationalist Socialist (Nazi) episode..."is a clear example of the inherent power of the Runes and how that power, which is essentially rooted in the soul of the folk, will eventually resist any attempts to force it to conform to any partisan cause other than that for which the Runes stand: the well-being of the folk and the seeking of wisdom. It is clear form the results that the Nazi Party violated these principles on both counts."

And now for a little ironic quote to lighten up the discussion:

"He who betrays the art shall be destroyed by it." - O. E. Simon :D

Really interesting stuff Kung Lek...I have read that Hitler was also reasonbly well versed in Qabbalist Jewish mysticism as well as OTO, Golden Dawn, etc... Nutso and a hypocrite. Hmmm.

[kenso]

This shape is more commonly referred to as mitsudomoe. The "comma", "vortex", or "fish" shape has a lot of power in ancient Japanese Shinto. You can find comma shaped emblems from back before the Nara period.
The mitsudomoe has been used in various forms in many family mon, and has now become commonly used in martial arts schools, mainly karate but also seen in aikido. It is also often seen in Taiko drumming.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Stone Monkey
The SIG rune, used as the 'S' in the SS symbol is a victory rune, TYR was the rune of struggle, OTHIL - the symbol of blood and soil and HAGAL was the rune of savation (racial purity).

Are these in themselves more modern translations?

Tyr/Tyw was a god with one hand in the Icelandic version of the Rune Poem mnemonic (the oldest rune poem extant), described as 'leavings of the wolf', and 'a steady prince'. By the time the Anglo-Saxon rune poem had been written, the reference to some mythological person was gone, and had been replaced by 'a guiding star': so, some constellation.

Hagalaz/Heagl was in both poems the rune of natural disruption, or later and more literally 'hail'.

Just wondering... Anyway it's easy to see how the Neo-Teutonic scholars could easily subvert the original verses. If you look at the Poems of Ossian and the countless other Neo-Celtic imitations from a hundred years before in the UK you can see the growing popularity of that kind of imagery.

Thanks for the description.

Kenso! Of course! The drums, the drums! I knew I'd seen the tomoye around a lot more, and I couldn't remember where! And mitsu ('three') d(t)omoe ('eddies/swirls')... it all makes sense now...! Any connection with kotodama and the taiko that you know of?

[kenso]

Mat,
Other than the generic connection of kotodama with Shinto and Shinto to the Taiko, not really.
Here's an explanation of why the mitsudomoe, specifically the hidari mitsudomoe (left facing) is so commonly seen in Okinawan arts: (taken from sanchin.com)

There is a story about why the Tomoe or crest was adopted by the Okinawan King. After the Satuma evasion in 1609, the King of Okinawa, Sho Nei, along with other high ranking officials who were prisoners, were taken to the Satuma conquerors to sign an oath of allegiance. Tei Do , one of the Okinawan Councilor’s, refused to sign the oath of allegiance to the Satsuma. As a result of his refusal, Tei Do was sentenced to death by boiling oil. As he was being led by two of the guards on top of a scaffold near the top of the boiling oil vat, before he could be tossed into the oil, he is said to have grabbed the two guards and jumped into the oil with them shouting that he would take them to hell with him. It is not hard to imagine the three of them whirling in the vat of boiling oil. The three coma shapes denote the three of them whirling . Historically accurate or not, it is a good story that is passed on since the Satsuma evasion of 1609.
The Hidari Mitsudomoe or Tomoe can be seen on many items on Okinawa both ancient and modern. Most martial art dojo on Okinawa use this symbol on certificates or in other forms. Today it stands as one of the symbols for Okinawa.