Lets talk about basics

[red5angel]

Since I am by no means an expert , and since I started over a few months back, I have had to go back and unlearn what I learned previously, and begin over. But this is not the only reason I like to discuss the basics, I like to discuss them because that is what wing chun is all about! The first 8-12 months are extremely important, sort of the cornerstone for which you lay down your foundation for the rest!
Everyone is so concerned about how long they have been doing it, but for those who have been doing it along time, have you forgot the basics? Do you still practice them?
Sparring comes up a lot for new students as well. Should you be sparring in the first 12 months of wing chun?
For you new guys what is it that you are getting out of your training? What things are changing for you and how hard are you working to get there?

[burnsypoo]

there's something OTHER than basics in wing chun??

oh frig.

[wingchunalex]

yeah i agree with you on the basics. they are really important. what seems to happen to me is that every few months I get a sort of wake up call that I need to get back to basics. its like I feel like im starting from square one againg even tough I am not. Thats what I like about wing chun, Its just a bunch of cycles. Its not that i have to relearn the basics, its that i'm reminded of them or a certain aspect of them. its like I progress with trapping lets say, but that leads me back to kicking, and kicking leads me back to footwork, and the footwork leads me back to trapping. (sort of a over simplified example, so please don't get on my case if it sounds wrong to you, its hard to explain) so yes the basics are constanly being fortified in my training. to put it in another way its like sil lim tau leads you to chim kui, and chim kui leads you to bil jee, but bil jee leads you back to sil lim tau. sparring can start as early as the third month, but it has to be done SLOWLY in a controled setting, against another beginning studdent or a instructor so that the student will feel comphortable just practicing his/her techniques and trying their techinques. it shouldn't matter if they get in on someone or if they get hit themsleves. it must be just slow and basic, no competition, no pressure. normal sparring can take place at about 6 months to a year, but it shouldn't be competitive, both opponents should just be trying out what they have learned. then they can build on that.

[red5angel]

wingchunalex! yep, I can appreciate that! the other thing is that wing chun is so simple on the outside it gives you time to focus, learn the system and then continue to relearn it and refine it as time goes on!

[anerlich]

Everyone is so concerned about how long they have been doing it

I'm not concerned about how long I've been doing it.

I am concerned that certainm individuals have only been doing it for a matter of months but feel they are qualified to judge what others do.


have you forgot the basics? Do you still practice them?

No to the first question and yes to the second.


Should you be sparring in the first 12 months of wing chun?

You need to have some knowledge of basic offensive and defensive tools, including footwork before beginning sparring. But IMO there is no point delaying it for years. Our beginning students are required to spar hands only to obtain their third student level, which most people get to in 6-9 months.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by red5angel
the other thing is that wing chun is so simple on the outside it gives you time to focus, learn the system and then continue to relearn it and refine it as time goes on! From which hat did you pull that one out?

[Mr Punch]

I haven't forgotten the basics. I practise writing and speaking English, as well as WC, every day. :D

[black and blue]

Every class begins the same way. Punching from YGKYM, punching with stepping, punching with turning.

Emphasis always on stance, relaxation, positioning (feet, knees, elbows, hips).

Then we do some form work and some basic tan sau, garn sau, bong sau, jum sau drills. Then it's on to (depending on our level of experience) lap sau drills, dan chi sau, chi sau. (Again the emphasis is on stance, footwork, positioning etc)

Then on to one-step sparring or anything our Sifu has in mind.

It seems to me, that whatever you're doing in WC, the basics are a part of it... you can never escape them. :)

[12345]

Originally posted by anerlich


You need to have some knowledge of basic offensive and defensive tools, including footwork before beginning sparring. But IMO there is no point delaying it for years. Our beginning students are required to spar hands only to obtain their third student level, which most people get to in 6-9 months.

Ae levels kind of like a belt system? How many levels do you have ?

[red5angel]

Anerlich, are they sparring in 6-9 months or do they begin to spar after 6-9 months?

[anerlich]

For Hung Suen Wing Chun we have a belt system, ten student levels each requiring two grading tests, and seven instructor levels after that. For Brazilian Jiu Jitsu we follw the standard grading curriculum of the Machado Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Organisation.

Unlike some organisations, we do not charge grading fees. The structure is there to provide a structure of progressively more challenging goals for students rather than as a cash cow.

Those who disagree with belt systems or grading structures are free to train elsewhere.

As for sparring we have an intoductory sparring class weekly which allows students to be exposed to basic sparring strategies and drills before going into the open sparring class. Students are eligible to join this class after about three months.

Classes are varied regularly, but at the moment we have three open sparring sessions a week, two of which are vale tudo format.

[LEGEND]

12 months before u start sparring???!!! WTF??? U should be sparring in under 3 months. The basic chain punching...kicks...and basic traps should allow u to do this! Alot of peeps worry about technique...sparring teaches u to maintain your technique under pressure!

[Matrix]

Originally posted by LEGEND
WTF??? U should be sparring in under 3 months. The basic chain punching...kicks...and basic traps should allow u to do this! Alot of peeps worry about technique...sparring teaches u to maintain your technique under pressure! If you want to spar after 3 months or even earlier take up TKD, or was that what you were referring to with the "WTF" comment, as in "World Taekwondo Federation". ;)

Matrix

[jesper]

Start sparring whenever you feel ready.
nobody can say when you are ready, including yourself. It could be within a week or after two years or more.

As for your question about training the basic. Sorry Red5angel, but it really shows your lack of maturity in the system.
And just to sound a little bit ruder, if you dont know what I mean, that really shows your lack of maturity in the system. :) :)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by jesper
Start sparring whenever you feel ready.
nobody can say when you are ready, including yourself. So how do you know when you "feel ready" if you can't say when you're ready. :rolleyes:

I would say your Sifu will know you're ready.........even if you don't. I can certainly agree that the milestone will be reached by different people at different times, but "within a week" doesn't fly. I would also say 3 months is too soon for most, but your mileage may vary.

Matrix

[Wei Sui]

Originally posted by Matrix
If you want to spar after 3 months or even earlier take up TKD, or was that what you were referring to with the "WTF" comment, as in "World Taekwondo Federation". ;)

Matrix

Definitely agree with this Matrix.

Sparring at 3 mo's could lead to bad habits being formed. There's no need to rush into sparring.

[anerlich]

Originally posted by Wei Sui

Sparring at 3 mo's could lead to bad habits being formed.

As could not doing any sparring for the first 2 or 3 years.

There seems to be some on here who feel they have the experience to counsel others as to when or not they should begin sparring, the pole, the dummy, etc.

In fact, this varies from Sifu to Sifu and should rightly depend on what other aspects of the particular instructor's methodology are bought into play at what time.

And, realistically, I've met few really avid students who wouldn't want to play around with sparring, the dummy, or the pole at the earliest possible opportunity, and do so even if it were "unauthorised" by their teachers. I'm sure some of the more well known and skilled of present Sifus did exactly that in their early days.

[Wei Sui]

Originally posted by anerlich


As could not doing any sparring for the first 2 or 3 years.


Yes, you are right, going 2-3 years without sparring doesn't sound like a good plan either....where's the balance? Probably relates to when the practitioner understands the principles and theory well enough to incorporate them into the sparring....to me 3 mo's does seem premature.


Originally posted by anerlich
[B]
There seems to be some on here who feel they have the experience to counsel others as to when or not they should begin sparring, the pole, the dummy, etc.

[B]

A question was raised, just posting my thoughts... :).

[anerlich]

Wei Sui,

fair enough mate, I wasn't singling you out and didn't mean to sound so pugnacious.

[jesper]

MATRIX: "So how do you know when you "feel ready" if you can't say when you're ready."
A lot of people feel they are ready to do any number of things without having the basic foundations to actually perform these things. Take all the cyberwarriors out there, with their fancy talk about fighting, how many of those do you think will be truly ready for a combat situation :)

As for when to spar. Before I answer that, you need to know that I belive in two separate reasons to spar, which give two very different answers to when you start to spar.

The first is; you spar to be ready for the real incounter.
Here I belive you must get into the ring asap. Even though you dont have the technical skills to actually do good WT. But you will learn to get hit and to dish out some damage yourself. This will give you an edge when you get into the real deal.

The second is; you spar to transform your technical skills into practical use. Here you need to have a strong foundation in basis. This is important because you will quickly find out that what you have been taught, doesnt always work for you for a variaty of reasons.

Lastly I want to say that I dont belive sparring leads to bad habits no matter how soon you start. Bad disciplin when training leads to bad habits.

[dbulmer]

Jesper, there's another reason which leads on from what you were saying - you learn the importance of what you are taught - I am thinking specifically of how force on force can be crippling :) , centreline and how footwork is important.

You also learn the importance of relaxation and calm when faced with adversity and you learn to be humble and appreciative of higher skill levels coz they can hurt ya!.

Free sparring is a great reality check and is at times a helpful gauge in assessing how you might cope outside class. That said, it has to be controlled otherwise it becomes reminiscent of a particular videotaped event doing the rounds at the moment.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by jesper
A lot of people feel they are ready to do any number of things without having the basic foundations to actually perform these things. I couldn't agree more.

As you've said, "you need to have a strong foundation in basis." and I don't think most people have that in 3 months. Sparring in and of itself does not necessarily lead to bad habits, but it does not necessarily lead to good habits either. I also don't believe that sparring is like a real encounter. Sparring is a game, usually with equipment and rules, an encounter is a more dangerous animal. It's like saying you can play golf because you can hit balls at the driving range. It just ain't so.

Having said that I feel that sparring has real value. Nothing can teach you about taking a strike, like taking a strike. ;) If you've never been punched or kicked in the head, you don't want to have to figure it out during an encounter. There are other positives that others have already mentioned. I just think one needs to learn to walk, before attempting to run. Like I said before, your mileage may vary - in other words, your personal experience may lead you to believe differently.

Besides, you shouldn't go around looking for real fights, just for training purposes.

Matrix

[EnterTheWhip]

If you feel the need to spar for a reality check, you clearly do not understand what you do and why you're doing it.