Honest to goodness REAL BJJ question

[CD Lee]

This is NOT a troll poll or anything of the sort. I just have a questions geared towards any real BJJ guys, and I know we have some here that do TCM as well. So here it is, just for my own curiosity:

In a bottom 'guard' situation in a STREET fight, what prevents a strong adrenaline pumped berzerk nut, from clawing your face, ripping your lips, teariing ears, or clawing at or into your eyes.

I was once taught by a Jui Jitsu (non BJJ)instructor a long time ago, in a street fight to grab at the lips if in close, and tear the membranes that connect the lips, which causes profuse bleeding. In other words, grab a lip a jerk as hard as possible. This just has always bugged me.

I don't think the BJJ guys would do the guard if it was that dangerous. But they do, so.........Whassup???

BTW, this is not a trolling thread, so don't even start it guys. Honest to goodnes, lets just have one civil discusion please.

[SifuAbel]

I think the only way to even attempt this is to buck the hips up so his hands hit the floor in order to support his weight making his face closer to you. Although, From there I like the striking elbow to the armpit / rib tactic.

Its hard to do a facial soft tissue manipulation to a sweaty guy. Or a guy that is purseing his lips or a guy with little body fat. If clawing at all , id rather go for the pectoral muscle and tissue by the armpit or the side of the neck that tends to have more tissue. If the guy is sitting up you'll have a hard time reaching the face.

[TheGhostDog]

st to get a few things straight first:
The guard is only used in the street as a last resort; it is only used when your opponent is able to get on top of you, and so rather than being stuck under mount, you use your guard.
In a street fight, the guard is not some place where you “camp out”. It is only a temporary position where you can finish your opponent with a submission, or reverse (sweep) your opponent and get on top to finish him.
That having been said, the reason those attacks you mentioned would most likely fail is that a BJJer will not just lay there while his opponent attacks him. The guard is about controlling your opponent’s limbs to stop him attacking or passing your guard. This can be done in many ways, including over-hooking and under-hooking his arms, controlling one arm and his head, controlling one arm and going to open guard etc.
If you get a chance to get in a BJJers guard, and let him know you want to attack him, and he will control your arms and your posture so well that you will have a very hard time doing the attacks you mentioned.

BTW, I’m a Machado BJJ Brown belt and have blacks belts in other styles also.

[SifuAbel]

oops my bad, Thought we were talkin about the other way around. ................nevermind


Street thinking:
Thinking about it, if the guy is on his back, walk away.

[SevenStar]

From the guard, you have a certain amount of control over your opponent - you can bring him close to you, or push him away. there are also many ways of manipulating an arm that is reaching in for your face. trap the arm and do something with it, be it breaking the arm, triangle choke, etc.

[SifuAbel]

How about faking a punch and kicking/kneeing him in the balls?

[SevenStar]

nah, not from the guard - your legs are wrapped around the opponent - unless it's an open guard. your opponent can hit you in the nads though.

[CD Lee]

Thanks Ghost, good info.

Sifu Abel: What are you talking about??? You are in the guard here in this scenario. No kicking anybody in the balls right?

Ghost, I understand it is definately a last resort for totally obvious reasons---in the street. It is an excellent sport fighting postion I agree. It is no different than boxers jerking their punches back in a boxing fight. They have too, because they have gloves on and can't grab the other guys arms. Therefore, they MUST learn to pull those punches back in immediately.

In the street the guard is not as good sure. But, if you did go down, and he is on top (probably out of shape), the guard is better than the other options.

I have watched too many UFC tapes I guess, and have noticed under the rules, that say shamrock can rest or lay his hands on Gracies' face sometimes. He can't claw, but I guess on the street, a Gracie would not lay there with the other guys hands on the face, right?.

I guess I am aksing, if you were to get into the guard in a street fight, could you expect to take a fair amount of damage to the face (scratches, eye claws, fish hooks) within the first minutes before the fat mean guy finally tires? I guess if you get in that position on the street, you probably are already losing anyways ritght?

I am also assuming that there are no other 'friends' around, or you have your own. Otherwise I don't know what you would do except get kicked in the head a lot?

Also, what would be the alternative to a guard if you did actually get knocked on your ass and he mounted, and his friends were there??? I guess the guard would work better than laying there eating knuckles for 10 seconds until you are out!? Right?

[TheGhostDog]

’ve you get guard on the street then you are not necessarily losing, as the guy could have caught you unawares.
The first thing I personally would do is overhook one of his arms, and his hook his head and pull him close. Move my hips out to the side and it’s going to be *very* difficult for him to attack me or claw at my face. From here I can either work for a choke, get both of my legs(hooks) in and sweep him, or work for an armlock etc. I can also put a foot in his hip, push him back and get back to my feet if I feel more comfortable. As I said, guard is a temporary position, to be used to stop the guy mounting and to enable you to attack your opponent from underneath.

As to an alternative to guard if he has mount, the only viable alternative to putting him into your guard is to bridge and roll him off so you end up in his guard (although most people won’t even know what a “guard” is.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

cd lee . .. i think sifuable was joking.

the lip thing works standing for sure. my sifu ended a bar fight real quick by pulling a guy into a flurry of punches by his bottom lip.

i understand what you're saying about being underneeth a guy like that, but if we're talking about clawing and fish hooking ending the fight wouldn't you have your chance as well? i know it would be much easier for the guy on top, but unless you are severly limited on reach such as myself you should be able to reach his face when he can reach yours. i'd be more worried about a ground and pound, but i have had no experience in a situation quite that serious.

[Whambo]

Well, I don't know how much I can say that hasn't been said before, but ya basically you've gotta use your guard different than say a sport BJJ match. If I use my guard, I personally will probably be trying to tie up your hands immediately, and creating space by going into a scissor sweep type position. From here it's good, if you can tie up say their left hand while you're on your left side you can start kicking them in the head. Also on most inexperienced people you'll land the scissor sweep almost everytime....stick to the basics. Keep in mind if you're extending your arm to grab my lip, you've just exposed that arm, and a good BJJ player will spin on that arm before you even know what hit you. Really the way I see it is almost as sensory overload. The BJJ should be throwing out sweeping/submission combo's that you'll never be able to keep up with. When your off balance or having to defend really the last thing on your mind is gonna be grabbing the lip. I also sorta take it to a classic UFC fight Rhodes vs Ettish. Ettish was obviously totally out of it, but even still Rhodes was having a hard time finishing him, in the end finishing it with some pathetic choke. See, even basic things like punching someone become much harder when you've never practiced groundfighting, because you have no established base. It's interesting when rolling with someone with no experience, the simplest movement can throw them off balance, so no need to get fancy.

[Ford Prefect]

The thing that keep the guy from clawing etc is the same thing that keeps the guy from knocking your head off with punches. If he is untrained as you said, then controlling his hands and reversing him isn't that hard. With a little training though, this becomes a lot harder.

[LEGEND]

CD LEE good question...the guard is the last resort. Most people that study BJJ are small and no amount of standup training can prevent them from being taken down by a bigger guy. What usually happens is the bigger guy will then POUND on the SMALLER GUY. The Guard u saw in the first several UFCs was like the BOXING TIE position...in order to prevent someone from POUNDING u...u tie him up using your legs and arms. Now the clawing and biting...NO BJJ guy will just sit and chill in this position. ROYCE vs. SHAMROCK...ROYCE had no choice cause SHAMROCK is bigger and an experience grappler also...so ROYCE was totally unable to sweep SHAMROCK. A SWEEP is the reversal from the GUARD to the top position. It's like a scissor move done when u're in the bottom...most inexperienced peeps are easily swept! I have no problem at 155lbs to sweep 220lb guys! However if the 220lbs guy knows how to wrestle or knows BJJ...I'm "F"! LOL. Whenever u do spar the BJJ guys...u'll prob. be on da bottom position...u will only see the guard if u initiated a takedown or if the BJJ guy just wants to play with u.

[jimmy23]

another thing is, if hes in your garud and reaching towards your face, hes setting himself up for some nasty stuff, or a sweep, at the very least.

[CD Lee]

Very very good replies. Exactly what I was interested in finding out. I am small myself (at least my skeleton), and have short arms. I guess experience is the key here, as far as being able to imagine non NHB event scenarios for guys like us. And I think we all know, things work on us that don't work on guys in the UFC. Can we take 250 punches to the face like a boxer does in a 10 round fight? Probably not.

Anyways, I hope to be able to try some BJJ after I learn my current system of Xingyi for at least 2-3 years. I think BJJ principles are very much similar to the internal KF arts. Sounds like blasphemy I know. :D Xingyi is extreemly devestating on the inside, especially against someone unfarmiliar with Xingyi, and adaptability is very similar to BJJ philosophies I think.

Thats the problem with UFC and other professional type fights. Their counters and pain tolerance are so effective and developed, you almost never get to see the effectiveness of normal techniques that would actually work very well in 99% of street situations.

[LEGEND]

It all comes down to what works for u. I've taught to several peeps...some guys are great standup fighter...so all they need is to learn to defend takedowns and get up fast if they are taken down. Small guys like myself can't hit worth ****..and are natural at grappling so we take the bigger guys down and bite...eyegouge or break! It's not easy being the small man...but u try. At least u'll survive.

[CD Lee]

Yeah, I can hit hard, but my problem is that being only 5'9, and short arms, I MUST get very close to do anything good. But, it does have advantages that are not obvious, such as beautiful body punches. While these don't seem to work too well in NHB events, I have won plenty of real fights with nothing but mid-sections strikes. Most people, including myself simply are not conditioned to take a single hard body shot, and most idiots that fight, expect a head shot.

In high school I got a rep for being able to get out of headlocks. Unfortunately this is not a good thing. Big strong guys used to grab me into powerful headlocks and chokes and then tell me to get out!!! You never want to hurt anybody, but what can you do? I would snake my arm up their back, neck and grab my palm on their face under their nose, and with the other hand, catch them behind the knee. FLIP! BAM! The real problem is that I got very very tired of almost getting choked completely out. I did not make it out of one because he was my friend, and I did not want to slam him on cement. I was one split second from blacking out.

Anyways, I hate that feeling in a choke of almost blacking out, so I hestiate to regularly let guys choke me in some BJJ school!? :D

[MA fanatic]

CD: Good question. Here's the answer. If you're on the ground, you better be on top of your apponent or in the guard. If he's on top, and you don't make your way into the guard, he will literally kill you. I strongly doubt, that anyone who is not experienced in grappling, would be able to cause tissue damage to a skilled bjj while in his guard. As a matter of fact, an apponent who is not familiar with bjj guard, would be swept (bjj guys sweep from the guard and mount their adversaries), armbarred, leg locked, and/or choked. Also, no one knows pressure points, fish hooks, eye gouges, and numerous other "dirty" (for lack of a better word) tactics on the ground better than the grapplers. Do you really think bjj guys don't know about this stuff. I have heard a lot
martial arts masters say, "if only eye gouging was allowed in NHB, bjj guys would lose and our art would win." Nothing could be further from the truth. TRUTH IS, IF THOSE TACTICS WERE PERMITTED, THE BJJ GUY WOULD LEAVE THE RING IN TACT WHILE THE SO CALLED "MASTER" WOULD BE BLIND. Don't take my word for it. Go into any respectable bjj studio and ask to grapple with grappling gloves on. As for permission to punch the face while in someone's guard. Unless you know what you're doing, you would not be in someone's guard for longer than 10 seconds. You would be tapping from an arm bar (there are at least 12 that I know from the guard), choked out (I know at least 12 chokes from the guard), or swept (I know at least 10 sweeps from the guard). Not to mention numerous ways a bjj guy could reverse you and get to his feet. BTW, I'm not even what anyone would consider good.
So check it out yourself. As for: Why guard? Like I said, it has many offensive techniques as well as defensive techniques. If you're not on top, the guard is where you want to be.
MA fanatic

[CD Lee]

Good reply MA Fanatic. Hey I was wondering in case I was flat on my back and had to go to the guard. I don't know BJJ, but I have used the guard wrestling with buddies that weve seen on UFC's. It was just a question. Of course I know these BJJ guys know all the dirty tricks. That is exactly why I wanted some real BJJ guys to speak up. And...I cannot beleive trolls have not ripped this thread to pieces! Very nice for a change.

[LEGEND]

CD LEE. U may want to take some BJJ classes for 6 months. I think that's enuf time to understand and get sparring experience from the guard.

[MA fanatic]

CD-LEE: If you want to learn some grappling with your buddies and do so via video instruction, one of the best sources of information is Marco Lala. His tapes are 19.99 and have a money back garanteed. Also, his tapes are loaded. I mean they are jammed backed with material. Every topic is virtually exhausted. I have been collecting MA videos for years. Marco Lala's is among the best. www.fightingsecrets.com. If you like, you can actually call him up at his school, and ask which tapes he'd recommend you start with first when it comes to grappling. Let me give you an example. His Leg Lock tape alone has over 50 various leg locks. His guard tapes (he has 2) covers numerous sweeps, reversals and stale mates. His second guard tape covers numerous methods of passing the closed, opened, and half guard. You cant miss for 19.99.
ma fanatic

[CD Lee]

MA Fanatic:

Now, THAT is good advice. I have a lot to work these days with the internal skills, because of prinicples, not techniques. However, that said, I will be building techniques every year, for a long time to come, and ground fighting will be in there.

I really appreciate the testimonial on the video. I know there is a lot of crap out there. I also know you CAN learn SOME things from a good quality video, although you really need to follow that up with in person instruction. I mean, just from wathcing UFC events over the years, I know at least, with no training on the ground ( I don't count wresting in school), I know not to turn my back, etc...

I don't want to change the subject, but some of my all time favorite 'on-your-back moves I have seen is (not that I could do them to any great effect):

1. Holding the guys wrists.

2. Slapping his ears when he bends down.

3. (best move ever), Placing palm over the guys MOUTH, as he is SUCKING FOR AIR!!!! That was used on Mark Coleman. That was just so beautiful and simple you had to smile really big.

[LEGEND]

FREE TRAINING...
www.fighttraining.com
Go to a university or somewhere that has a T1, DSL or cable and u can see this!

[anerlich]

Don't have much to add, and I'm nowhere near Ghost Dog's level, but some things I have seen/heard:

As said, you want to avoid the ground entirely if you have a choice. Choice might be a luxury, of course.

From a (small) amount of experience sparring Vale Tudo style, my instructors have told me you either want the guy right in close in your closed guard with his arms tied (which still might not stop you getting bitten outside the ring) where you can get some punches in and kick his thighs with your heels - though these tactics are more suited to wearing someone down during a 5 min round rather than finishing a street fight in seconds.

If not right in close, then you want the guy as far away as possible at the end of your open guard. If you can get good control on one of his arms you can kick pretty effectvely.

If the guy has some ground skills, keeping him at punching range in your closed guard is dangerous - he CAN punch you pretty hard from here. If you have significantly superior skill, you probably will be able to sweep or submit from here, but if the other guy has some skill as well it may not be that easy. You'd want to be careful about getting picked up and slammed on head/neck too - illegal in BJJ comps but not on the street.

A BJJ BB whose seminar I attended said he had heard of an incident where a number of bouncers took on a mob of other punters. One guy concentrated on taking his share out with chokes from underneath, keeping the guy on top of him as a shield, then moving on to the next, and allegedly he suffered less damage than many of his partners who were duking it out with the mob.

He also said it might be better to finish someone from underneath in a group situation where bystanders may jump in if they see someone winning from the top - though you'd have to be just about psychic to read that situation without risk.

I agree the hand over the mouth tactic worked in the Coleman fight, but I wouldn't want to try it if biting were not against the rules.

[SifuAbel]

"I have heard a lot martial arts masters say, "if only eye gouging was allowed in NHB, bjj guys would lose and our art would win."

This comment is an inaccurate hyperbole. "Masters" very seldomly and rarely say something like this. If anything, this is said by intermediate students on the internet that don't have a better answer than to go for the most exotic sounding technique. Yet people run with this like it was said by Bruce himself.

I can't stress this enough.

I've posted this reply 1000 times.

Kung Fu students, LEARN YOUR GAME BETTER.

The answer isn't in some exotic technique. The answers come from being A BETTER FIGHTER.

People have already learned how to stay on their game and not be taken down. Its not rocket science!! Its happening in MMA events everyday.

I'm going to have to copy this repy for the next 1000 times!!

[respectmankind]

i don't find grappling (the kind you learn in most schools) to be very effective in real life. there is my largely unliked opinion

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by CD Lee
Thanks Ghost, good info.


Ghost, I understand it is definately a last resort for totally obvious reasons---in the street. It is an excellent sport fighting postion I agree. It is no different than boxers jerking their punches back in a boxing fight. They have too, because they have gloves on and can't grab the other guys arms. Therefore, they MUST learn to pull those punches back in immediately.



Maybe they pull their arms back quickly because they don't want to overcommit on a strike and compromise balance and position. It is true that the hardest punches go through their target, but pulling your striking limb back quickly allows one to be in a position to block or parry a follow-up blow. Speed is very crucial in striking, so quickly pulling your arms back after penetrating the target may facilitate striking velocity. Try and throw a looping hook that doesn't return to your guard against a good grappler. You'll realize just how fast someone can shoot in under your haymaker and take you down.

It has already been mentioned that the guard is a position during groundfighting, which can give one options against an opponent who has gained top position. It's better than being mounted, and having your legs free and around your opponents waist allows you to strike with more force. It also gives you the ability to reverse a guard pass and gain a more advantageous position. Against those unfamiliar with sophisticated groundfighting (e.g. most people;martial artists or otherwise), sweeps and submissions can be effectively executed from the guard.

If you were mounted by a 300 pound sociopath outside a club, and he was punching your head into the concrete how would you defend agaist that? Gouges, punches and kicks are little more than energy wasters and nuisances in this situation. How does your art teach you to deal with a scenario where a big, strong, amped bruiser attacks you from behind unexpectedly throwing you to the ground and mounting you? I think BJJ and other grappling forms are beneficial to those wishing to expand their overall repertoire of self-preservation armamment. I guarantee that learning Judo, GJJ, Sambo, Wrestling or the like won't hurt you one bit. Once you have a solid, advanced understanding of a base art (1st Deg. BB level or higher) then study of a 2nd, 3rd or 4th complimentary art is always a smart thing for the martialist. You can continue to train in your base art, but branching out after you master the basics of your first style should be of no detriment to your fighting instincts.

That's my 2 centavos. Have a great week.

[CD Lee]

Good points Omega. I know I must learn my base style and understnad and apply the principles before I try to do anything else. I

practiced this weekend with a guy, moving him off his center as he held me tightly, without using hardly any muscular effort. However, this was very difficult, as I had to really work with him to get this right. I litterally had to sink his energy into my heel (yes you can feel it if work at it), before I could move. Otherwise, I was using isolated shoulder muscles. This sounds crazy, but our Sifu's can do applications on us that seem almost like magic, due to the synergistic nature of their movements. We can all feel inside us things twisting and corkscrewing when they get a hold of us, vs. us doing each other, where it feels very different. It is like when they contact us, they control us instantly. It is not magic, it is hard work, and quality practice and understanding of sound mechanics and alignments. This stuff takes a while, and takes hard work.

I want to master a lot before I apply energy to something else, but I will work hard and eventually get there. I can take those same principles into other techniques later.

Boxers---they do snatch those punches back to keep from getting clocked over the top with counters. Theirs is a games of rules and timing. They have to control the distance so they can penetrate deeply and still have room to snap their punches back. This is part of the mastery of great world class boxers. Every good world class trainer will tell you to never leave a punch out there, or throw a lazy jab. However, in a street fight, the rules are different, and you can throw a punch and grab the guy, or spin around him while you hold him. Very different rules. Have you not ever wondered why one of the most very basic of all boxing hallmark rules, is not taught by all striking MA styles?

If fact what is the number one way to beat almost ANY boxer? Hit him in the nuts Andrew Golota style. It really works, if he does not get you first. Ouch!

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by CD Lee

If fact what is the number one way to beat almost ANY boxer? Hit him in the nuts Andrew Golota style. It really works, if he does not get you first. Ouch!

Haha, no dobut. In fact that is a pretty good technique to use against any fighter, regardless of style, hahaha!

[CD Lee]

Omagapoint said:


Haha, no dobut. In fact that is a pretty good technique to use against any fighter, regardless of style, hahaha!


Yeah. That is such a common sense thing that we almost forget about it! Aiming for the nutz is superior to aiming for the head.

1. It is very hard to move the nutz side to side. (that sounds pretty dammm funny!) They are much easier to hit.

2. It is much easier to move the head away from a punch.

3. 99% of guys THINK or EXPECT you to aim and hit at their head.

4. You don't have to hit the nutz, just hit low, it works just as good in a real fight.

5. DON'T LOOK AT HIS NUTZ BEFORE YOU STRIKE!!!!!!!!!!!

6. If he turns to avoid you, you have a BETTER STRIKING ANGLE ON HIS HEAD NOW....UHHHHHH, THAT WORKS!

7. If he blocks it with his leg, he has lost his ability to keep his balance momentarity, pay attention and project him into the air.

8. If he blocks it with his hands, his face is wide open.

9. If you are striking DOWN at his nutz, almost no matter what you hit, he will go down due to the rooting action of a downward strike.

10. It is 100% natural to BEND OVER if someone strikes at your lower mid section. Be ready to follow up over the TOP after going LOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

11. Last but certainly not least, WATCH YOUR OWN PACKAGE, LEST HE USE THESE SAME 11 PRINICPLES ON ***YOU***.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

if the gaurd is a position that the bjj'er reverses at will, why are so many ufc fights won by the ground and pound?

[CD Lee]

Gunned Down:

Did you read the posts carefully? The BJJ answers here did not say that sport UFC guard is usually reversible. They said against less skilled guys ON THE STREET, that the guard is much more likely to get a reversal.

[LEGEND]

Gunn...u plan on fighting a GROUND AND POUNDER UFC fighter in the street??? LOL...most peeps in the street cannot base out correctly after they tackle a BJJ guy. However if the guy has some wrestling knowledge then the only choice for a BJJ guy is to catch him in a submission...but this is the street...so u better hope to god u have friends that can back u up!