learning from Cheung/Boztepe

[hunt1]

This thread is not to flame either.

One of the 2 most common things to occur in a real fight is having your ams or uperbody grabbed as a way to stop your punches.This can be out of panic and is a hope to control or smother your attack.This is what Bozetepe did to Cheung.

Boztepe knew what he was doing it was a well planned stratagy.

Wing Chun is supposed to be at its best at close range.This was a very typical close range situation.William did not respond well.

Does your WC contain the answer to this situation or do we need to run to the Gracies for help?

Logic says WC forms should have the answer. My forms (Yip Man)contains 3 explicit ways to easily deal with this situation in the first 2 forms alone. In his defense William cheungs forms do not explicitly contain the answer.

Where in your WC is the answer found? Please no pressure point or inch punch etc answrs. Advanced methods are not needed.

This situation is so basic and common that everyone with 1 year of WC training should be able to give at least one section of a form that deals with this.

[rogue]

How about this lesson: If someone says he wants to "fight you now", believe him. Chuengs screw up was not taking Emin seriously, doing the GM rap (I'll grant you a fight later though you're beneath me) and turning his back upon a hostile. No matter how good your system and no matter how well you've mastered it if you refuse to accept the reality of what's happening you've already lost.

[hunt1]

Rogue- true but you are missing the point.It is not about Cheung /Boztepe .The video is a great example of a real life fight situation.It could happen to anyone of us at any time.

The question is if someone grabbed your arms or wrapped your head how would you respond before they did a lift and sweep or some other take down.Does your wing chun show you how not to end up like William.

[red5angel]

Hunt1, I get what you are saying, and in SLT there are a few answers, but I think Rogue also has a good point. Its about the awareness of self defense. Something a lot of self defense classes, etc.. neglect. If william wouldnt have assumed and turned his back then he may have been alright. I think the first 'technique' that is important in these situations is to be aware.
If someone is threatening you, or even seems threatening, better to be paying attention so you dont have to use those techniques in SLT to get yourself out of a trap!

[fa_jing]

Well William Chueng studied the same forms back in Hong Kong as everybody else did, so that's not a reason. And, I don't know what the answer is to that situation with the two arms grabbing, other than kick and knee which is what he tried to do. Emin practiced his response and specifically trained to do what he did, Chueng was caught by surprise and I'll go with Rogue's answer. Although, Hunt1, please spill the beans on what you consider to be the wing chun response.

[red5angel]

fa_jing, can you think of any responses to being grabbed around the torso in your SLT?

[mun hung]

lesson - the "entry technique" does not work well against "the shoot". (especially in slippery kung fu shoes)

I don't think William Cheung expected Emin to go low. When he turned around to find Emin shooting in - his first reaction was his "entry technique" which worked out perfectly for Emin's shoot. The rest looked pretty sloppy.

William Cheung did'nt have enough time to react because he had to turn around, but it was his mistake to have turned his back on Emin in the first place.

solution - IMO, elbows and knees against the shoot.

[fa_jing]

The video I saw didn't show any kind of a shoot, and Emin had his hands on William's upper arms, not his body. It was sort of like the chi gerk postion. At least from how I saw it. The take down was an upper body takedown and occurred as William picked up his foot to knee, Emin used a judo-like throw to just flip him sideways.

The clip I saw did not show William using his entry technique, nor did it show Emin shooting. Another clip I saw a while back showed even less.

[dbulmer]

What can we learn from this? Nothing ! Low skill. low and beneath contempt for 2 skilled guys to behave like that.

[LEGEND]

I agree with FAJING. WING CHUN stragedy imploys agressiveness...William lost period cause he didn't attack! Not to mention he never establish and attachment/trap to a thing. EMIN bypassed it by grabbing right away...from that point it was GRAPPLING.

[Wingman]

The way I see it, both men were doing parallel hand chi sao... or maybe they were holding on to each others' arms (parallel hands). The video is not very clear. Then Cheung tried unsuccesfully to sweep Emin's foot. That's why Cheung lost his balance and the fight went to the ground.

I think that the lesson we can learn from the video is to have a solid root before you attempt to raise your leg in order to kick or to sweep. There is a saying in wing chun that says that when you kick, you have 3 legs supporting you. One leg is your own, and the other 2 are your opponent's legs. This means that you must have control over your opponent before you attempt to raise your leg to kick.

[yuanfen]

Wingman sez:There is a saying in wing chun that says that when you kick, you have 3 legs supporting you. One leg is your own, and the other 2 are your opponent's legs. This means that you must have control over your opponent before you attempt to raise your leg to kick.
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That's a staple in my instruction.!!!

[Wingman]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Wingman sez:There is a saying in wing chun that says that when you kick, you have 3 legs supporting you. One leg is your own, and the other 2 are your opponent's legs. This means that you must have control over your opponent before you attempt to raise your leg to kick.
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That's a staple in my instruction.!!!

Yes, maybe so :) . But William Cheung failed to use such a basic principle during the critical moment. Maybe we can learn another lesson -- Don't forget the basics. I think there is a discussion about this in another thread.:D :)

[wingchunalex]

the two of them do a disrespect to the wing chun community. Boztep issuing a challenge was childish and dishonorable, and cheung accepting the challege was dishonorable and showed that he doesn't have confidence in his own abilities because he thinks he has to prove himself. the same thing goes to boztep. What we can learn from it is to not be like either of them.

Not to meniton whether boztep grabbed cheungs both of arms or shooted on him that isn't wing chun. if boztep did either of those techinques cheug should have been able to counter. the fouth move in sil lim tau, kwan sau (rolling hands), could have taken care of either situaiton. So it was a bad situation in all areas, technique, applicaiton, and honor.

[Mr Punch]

I've found 9/10 times I try funky wrist locks/arm bars/kansetsu-waza on a good WCer, they always have a simple answer which adequately counteracts it, and often puts me at a disadvantage structurally.

A lot of the jing trained in slt is designed, I think, to get shot of somebody grabbing your arms, or at least get control of them.

If any of the stories are to be believed, WC developed partly as an anti-chinna art, so this would fit quite nicely.

Even the basic principles of pushing the head, raising the tail help to counteract these kinds of grab. And lack of rooting shouldn't have made a difference, as with correct bridge linking the attack itself should have rooted Cheung.

Something other than just standing there would have been useful! :rolleyes:

[Rolling_Hand]

--Something other than just standing there would have been useful>Mat

LOL...If you don't like where you're going, you'll probably end up somewhere else.