Who can Fight?

[red5angel]

Who here can fight, USING their wing chun? I understand you can practice wing chun, not be very good at it, but still be a 'good' fighter, but what I am talking about is who here knows they can use their wing chun to fight? There is a definite difference! If you are bothering to learn wing chun then you should be bothering to fight with it, right?"

[old jong]

No!....I do Wing Chun just to relax so my knitting is better! :p

[Axiom]

I'm not sure if that's true, I mean it's an art like any other. Art doesn't need any objective beyond doing it for art's sake. Of course it's also a tool, and you might say (I'm not saying it because I don't consider myself experienced enough to know)that to get the best from it you need to be able to apply it, or at least practise it with the intent involved in applying it.

Anyway, to answer the question: not really, not with wing chun. Not yet anyway. I'm working on it.

[red5angel]

no joke man, someone on this forum a month or so ago said that he did wingchun for relaxation, he compared it to wingchun! I am sorry but although my SLT might be sort of relaxing, its there to teach me to fight! Not only that but some people just dont take the martial arts in general, seriously enough. I have met plenty of people who sort of treat it as an excersise program. I say if that is what you want go do Tae Bo, from what I understand you really sweat doing that!

[gnugear]

I see a lot of karate guys fight and not look like they're practicing their art. Not a slam, just what I've noticed. I probably would fall into that catagory too, since I used to studying karate. Some of the katas just don't work in real life situations.

On the other hand I would definitely use my Wing Chun in a fight.

[red5angel]

Axiom, thanks for being honest. As for an 'art', I think it is unfortunate that that label is used so liberally with the Martial skills. for some it is an art, and for me, wingchun is the art of fighting efficiently. In my class we have a person who has the perfect answer for those who want to practice the 'art'. Take up dancing! Its no joke, dancing professionally can be hard work and atleast as challenging as the Martial arts.
I can appreciate the art aspect but always remember that Martial comes before Art.

Gnugear, what I see alot of people do in the MAs, in my karate class several years ago this was prevalent. They seem to throw out what they learned and sort of get the kick boxing disease! They sort of start thrwoing these muy thai like kicks and punches. But thats what I am talking about. Look at the Cheung/boztepe fight that everyone is so excited about lately. They both lost wingchun from the get-go and started wrestling.

[tiger_1]

fight with wing chun , and im sure opponent have that litlle chance that bad position for him , im just dnt know what opponent can do , but in world have onthers kung fu styles and onthers fighters tho its have big speed and texnic so...( for derivates im dnt like to talking that its borning) - just friendly tiger_1:)

[Axiom]

Well Red, personally I'm in it more for the martial than the art, but I'm glad the art is there, it makes the whole thing a little richer. I don't see the problem with people concentrating more on the art aspect, though, if that's what they want. Not that I've ever come across someone that was more interested in the art.

[red5angel]

Tiger_1 sounds like sound advice to me! ;)

Axiom, fortunately I have only seen the one guy who does it for the art, but sometimes I meet people who dont seem to give it the respect it deserves as a martial art either. Everyone has come across those people, the kind of person who comes to most of the classes, admittedly doesnt do much at home, doesnt talk about it, doesnt seem to think about it much. Sort of like some sort of Martial Arts zombie!
To me, its fighting strategy that makse the MA cool. Wing chun has the most beautiful fighting strategy in my opinion, although there are others just as good.

[fa_jing]

I can fight and use some wing chun. I can't fight and use ALL of my wing chun. The most basic techniques and footwork I can definitely apply during a fight, I base this on my performance during competitive pressure situations against practicioners of other styles. It does take a while before you can really use it, I'd say between 2-3 years depending on how much sparring you do.

[MDK Tiger]

I'm new at Wing Chun, and therefore am not qualified to really give an answer to this question, but I have taken Taekwon-Do and Shorin-Ryu Karate in the past, so I am not entirely new to MAs.
I would hope in time, Wing Chun would prepare myself for any fights I may stumble into, such as if my back was against the wall, and there was no other way out, or if I had to defend someone else from an attacker. However I am one who actually practices Martial Arts for the sake of practicing the art itself. I am big into forms as I believe that forms are the essense of the art, in fact without forms, Martial Arts become just another method of fighting, kickboxing, whatever.
Now, is Wing Chun therefore for me? I do not know, I am still making up my mind on that. I am kind of wavering between sticking with Wing Chun or taking up Wado-Ryu, which may feature stances, techniques that are more familiar to me than the ones I am learning in Wing Chun. Plus Wado-Ryu is a little more combat oriented(that is, oriented towards kumite) than some of its Japanese cousins, such as Shotokan.
However, I am still leaning towards staying with Wing Chun because despite its techniques being somewhat strange(new) to me, I am impressed with what I percieve as its effectiveness in a real life combat situations, and at the same time may be more beneficial in the long term, health wise, than a more external system such as Karate-Do.
Right now if I found myself in a confrontation, I would have to think about what I would do if I resorted to what I have learned so far in Wing Chun, and would instead probably react instinctively with what I know. Wing Chun for me then means not really building on what I have practiced and learned in the past, but means changing directions. If I decide to stay with it, it will take some time, months, years even, to develop the knowledge and muscle memory that it would take before I could affirm my confidence of using it in a real life combat situation. In the meantime, I hope you do not mind if I state that it does help me to relax, and in fact, may have already helped to lower my blood pressure!
Robert

[dbulmer]

I agree with Fa_Jing. In a fight if you get the chance to do WC at all then great but you have to be experienced with it.

As a novice I'd be apply to certain WC principles but I wouldn't be so arrogant as to think I could use it consistently. One of the reasons we train is to be consistent and skilled - it doesn't come overnight it takes time and dedication. In WC we unlearn the bad habits we have been doing and adopt new habits and then we start all over again.

As for SLT, R5A can you remember asking if I'd be prepared to sink lower to get root? Well, I did and my rooting has improved - it's not great but it's getting better. Now when you talk about SLT my view is that SLT is exhausting business - getting the precision and the root takes time and effort and hurts!
SLT for me is hard as I have to really work at it, it's relaxing but it's also hard work - gung fu !

People who do WC for relaxation are ok by me - when I started WC it was for the very same reason - and it's still the same reason now. It's wonderful to see people who start not knowing their left hand from the right hand , looking relaxed and full of sparkle and enthusiasm.

I am excited ...... (R5A :) )

[EnterTheWhip]

Wing Chun is a method of learning how to "fight", not a method of fighting.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by red5angel
Who here can fight, USING their wing chun? I understand you can practice wing chun, not be very good at it, but still be a 'good' fighter, but what I am talking about is who here knows they can use their wing chun to fight? There is a definite difference! If you are bothering to learn wing chun then you should be bothering to fight with it, right?"
Hi Red5Angel,

While I am confident that your teacher and his teacher can fight, do you expect us to believe their constant motivation is wanting to fight better? The desire to reach a level of self-defense prowess (Is this what you mean by fighting?) must have come and gone long ago in their respective lives. I invite you to think about it.

Regards,

[red5angel]

I know one of Carls driving goals is to be a better fighter, why study MArtial Arts if you dont want to fight better? Why not go, get your blackbelt and then go find something else to do? Its of course not the only reason anyone pursues it.

"must have come and gone long ago in their respective lives"

This comment is too presumptious for my taste. Have you talked to them? Have you asked them if this desire has passed? A good martial artist always looks for all the non-fighting possibilities in a confrontation, but a good martial artist also desires to be the best fighter he can be. Like I said, if you want to look pretty in motion, take dancing, its as, if not more demanding. just as deep and doesnt put all that other stuff (Read Martial) in the way.
The minute I stop wanting to be the best fighter I can be is the minute I will take up something else. Wanting to be the best fighter doesnt mean you want to go out looking for fights, on the contrary, but the desire to be the best if you have to be is always there. why pursue it if it isnt?

Dbulmer - I agree it is tough work! But fun none the less and on my downtime I have never been more relaxed! I also agree with you about novice wing chun people. I am not confident I could fight using all wingchun at the moment but I am working on it. The worst always comes out under pressure, I think its why some people have a hard time applying thier martial ability in a fight, but if you train for it then hopefuly it comes out right?

[sunkuen]

"This comment is too presumptious for my taste. "

Ain't that the pot callin' the kettle black!!! :eek:

[MDK Tiger]

Courage, courtesy, and humility are three of the tenents of Martial Arts that should be passed on to every student by their instructors. I do not see many examples of those tenents on this forum.

I practice MAs to help prepare myself in the event of a fight, but the ultimate goal of MAs should be to teach one how NOT to fight!

Robert

[red5angel]

MDK said - "the ultimate goal of MAs should be to teach one how NOT to fight! "

agreed, However, I think I am going to start my own wingchun club, I can call it "WingChun for Health and Relaxation"

"Contemplation through Pugilation is a little known and often misunderstood chinese art form. Not only will you learn to master this but you will also learn to stand calmly in the face of attackers and withstand the hardest of arts by simply relaxing.

Go ahead, try it! Take a deep breath, close your eyes and ask the nearest person to strike you in the head repeatedly. Through rigorous practice of this as well as other ancient secret methods you will learn to relax like no other! Taichi - too tense! Who wants to learn to fight when you could be relaxing!
But Wait!!! thats not all!! By learning to relax so deep you can ACTUALLY fall asleep so blindingly quick your opponents will be baffle dinto inaction!

[kj]

EnterTheWhip is correct.

sunkuen is astute.

MDK Tiger offers a valuable and viable perspective.

"To be" a fighter differs vastly from "having capability" to fight, each with commensurate implications.

Motives for aspiring to "be a fighter" versus "being able to fight" also merit analysis and contemplation, IMHO.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[pvwingchun]

As long as their intentions are honest and they adhere to the principles we should not care why they practice or be concerned with the level of commitment of other WC practioners. People come to things with differnet intentions because of differing life experiences. Be concerned only with yourself and why you do it.

[red5angel]

"Motives for aspiring to "be a fighter" versus "being able to fight" also merit analysis and contemplation, IMHO. "

True, as well as 'creative interpretaion'.

Oddly enough I find that view point, friendly and 'normal'. Unfortunately this world is not full of normal people. One thing I learned while fighting in the desert, That although extremes are not the best way to go, to meet one you sometimes have to be the other. I was a marine, I volunteered to fight, to die and to kill for my country if all of them were seen as necessary. Doesnt sound nice does it? But it provides some with the ability to comfortably sit at home and think that not fighting is an option. thats what made me realise that sometimes, the nice view isnt always the best way, and sometimes blowing sunshine up each others bums gets you nowhere in a hurry. Sorry to drop a little dark cloud into all the huggy happiness that abounds in KFO but fighting is as much a part of life as living, eating and dying. Hopefully most of us never have to do it, but some of us will, and I would rather have someone willing to then someone not standing next to me when it all breaks loose and the time for niceties and freindliness have ended.
Wanting to be a warrior and wanting to avoid war can and often are the same thing. I Volunteered to be a marine so that I could be a part of the deterrant, with the idea that if I were calle dupon I would do what I had to do, as well as the men and women who have their lives in every war that ever has been or will be. If you want to talk about knowing something of conflict, and here it can lead and how one can react, I am intimately familiar with it. I recognize a weapon when I see it, and Wing Chun is a weapon. Its nice to think you can relax while doing it, its great to think you may not ever and hopefully will never have to use it, but I am not fooling myself into thinking I am studying fighting skills to relax or comune with my inner being or watever else. It is true that the challenges MA throws down in front of you can test you more thorougly then some things, and some arts are designed more for other things then fighting, but wing chuns purpose is to destroy your opponent in the quickest most efficient way possible.

[anerlich]

Ain't that the pot callin' the kettle black!!!

LOL @ sunkuen.


all the huggy happiness that abounds in KFO

Can't say I've seen much of that myself. Plenty of arguments here, as well as self-obsessed and self opinionated blowhards thinking their own opinions deserve group adulation,

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by red5angel
I know one of Carls driving goals is to be a better fighter, why study MArtial Arts if you dont want to fight better? Why not go, get your blackbelt and then go find something else to do? Its of course not the only reason anyone pursues it.

Hi Red5Angel,

Each one studies martial arts for his or her own reasons. Have you asked Carl if fighting is his goal? Have you asked him if his goal is to improve himself or just his Wing Chun?


"must have come and gone long ago in their respective lives"

This comment is too presumptious for my taste. Have you talked to them?
And your comment is too presumptious for mine. :) I have talked extensively with Ken over the years, and I talked with Carl in person in May, and more recently if you count e-mail. I have also read many of Carl's posts on our lineage's discussion group, to which you and I are privy, and while I may be misreading him, I'd say Carl has progressed to the point of not worrying about winning fights with others and is more about seeking a higher level of understanding in the passionate search for "better Wing Chun." How would you feel if I ask him your question on the list?

It's my humble opinion that people who only want to fight will not last in a martial arts system such as Wing Chun. They will experience too often that their seniors are way ahead and become discouraged. It is only seeing it as a lifetime pursuit of for want of a better English word, "art," that one weathers life's little discouragements by being focused on the goal of achieving a gradually better Wing Chun skills (and improvement of any amount is always gradual). No offense intended, but you haven't even begun to see the long term potential.


Have you asked them if this desire has passed? A good martial artist always looks for all the non-fighting possibilities in a confrontation, but a good martial artist also desires to be the best fighter he can be.

First, define good martial artist some day. But, not now please. Have you been in any fights since beginning your Wing Chun training? To me, fighting is largely unnecessary unless unavoidable in those very rare cases of real self defense. In the few instances in which I have taken umbrage at rude or inappropriate behavior in public, my confidence in being able to take it to the next level has kept me from having to. :)


Like I said, if you want to look pretty in motion,
Sure, I want to look pretty in motion, but "pretty" is hard to define, isn't it? :)


take dancing,

I'd like to, but my training time interferes. :) My sifu, however, is an excellent dancer, having learned cha-cha from young St. Bruce.


its as, if not more demanding. just as deep and doesnt put all that other stuff (Read Martial) in the way.
The minute I stop wanting to be the best fighter I can be is the minute I will take up something else. Wanting to be the best fighter doesnt mean you want to go out looking for fights, on the contrary, but the desire to be the best if you have to be is always there. why pursue it if it isnt?
One might pursue it for any number of reasons. For me, underlying them is the desire to improve my person and my Wing Chun, but as KJ has pointed out on numerous occasions, I could just carry and spend more time at the range if self defense were the only goal. :)


Dbulmer - I agree it is tough work! But fun none the less and on my downtime I have never been more relaxed! I also agree with you about novice wing chun people. I am not confident I could fight using all wingchun at the moment but I am working on it. The worst always comes out under pressure, I think its why some people have a hard time applying thier martial ability in a fight, but if you train for it then hopefuly it comes out right? I'm sure Carl is an inspiration, but you really need to meet more of Ken's people from the Bay Area. The experience will open your eyes.

Regards,

[Fresh]

Sounds like you need some therapy work there red dude. Or maybe that's what this is all about. ;)

You write like you know what everybody else is thinking all the time. The joke is you don't have a clue what makes other people tick but we get to see what you're made of. The more serious you are the funnier it gets for the rest of us. :D

Keep up the good work red dude! :p

[yenhoi]

You cannot 'use' wing chun. You use a pot to boil water IN - you do not use wc to fight with.

My goal with the martial arts is to fight 'better.'

Soldiers of all people seek to avoid warfare.

[kj]

Originally posted by John Weiland
For me, underlying them is the desire to improve my person and my Wing Chun, but as KJ has pointed out on numerous occasions, I could just carry and spend more time at the range if self defense were the only goal. :)

LOL. I'll have to pay more attention to my writing now, knowing someone actually reads it. ;)

[rogue]

Here's a really, really dumb question for all of you who are practicing a MA to be a (better) fighter. Who is it you're planning on fighting?:confused:

[Sihing73]

Hello Everyone,

I have to say that this is the type of thread which really just goes in circles. Nothing is accomplished and most of the energy spent is wasted. Seems like there may be a lesson there as one of the things Wing Chun is know for is efficiency.

As to taking a martial art in order to learn to fight; last I checked most of us lived in lands with laws and those hired to enforce those laws. In many instances if you chose to fight, and do so effectively, you may end up with a loack of mobility for several years, even if you may have been in the right. Considering all of the potential problems I would think the WISE one would avoid fighting at any but the most extreme circumstances.

I do not like to go to this area but speaking from experience fighting is never the most desired goal. Regardless of whether you win or lose you will pay a price. This could be in any number of ways. I have found that most who glorify fighting have little real life experience in that area. Once they get some they tend to wise up and learn that fighting is not all it's cracked up to be.

Yes, Wing Chun is an art designed for combat. However we are not living in China and we are not training to overthrow our governement, at least not the majority of us ;) although I sometimes do fantasize about the idea. It is unlikely that most of us will need to use our training if we use some common sense along the way. Training in Wing Chun is for that rare instance when you must defend and do so brutally and efficiently. It is not for childish playground antics. :(

There is much more to our art than simply fighting. If you don't understand that then your "knowledge" of the system is lacking!!

Why not stop all the posturing and get back to discussing and learning about this fine art?

Peace,

Dave

BTW: I was going to be a marine but I PASSED the IQ test :D I had to settle for the Army Rangers :p (Only joking for those of you true jarheads out there ;) )

[yuanfen]

Rogue asks:Who is it you're planning on fighting?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------According to the flavor of Red5's posts---the desert is all around us and there be meanies out there behind yon brush/bush or dune.

I ain't planning on fighting anyone.

FWIW, I have had a couple of very experienced Marines as students. Both quite good in wing chun. Somehow the flavor of their conversations and values seem to be in the case of one and have been in the case of the other-now gone-quite different from that of red 5. Drill sergeant factor- past and present?
Need an authority figure?Different abilities in adapting to civil society?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Fresh
Sounds like you need some therapy work there red dude. Or maybe that's what this is all about. ;)
Hi Fresh,

What is the correct therapeutic response? Old Jong, can you help us?

Regards.

[old jong]

I don't know guys!...I really don't know!...:(
I'm used to a lot more simple cases! ;)

[vingtsunstudent]

red, you say you prefer the martial to the art yet the way you talk shows absolutely that you are an artist(a wanna be at that) and not a fighter.
all you do is keep spewing out wing chun sayings and ideals without the slightest knowledge of what will happen in a real fight against someone who wants to take your ****ing head off.
keep talking, because that's all you seem to do, and i'm sure you may be able to convince some 7 year old that you know exactly what real combat is about, however i doubt that even a 7 year old is that gullible.
vts

[Redd]

Originally posted by red5angel
If you are bothering to learn wing chun then you should be bothering to fight with it, right?"

True to his maturity and intellect. Anyone know how to submit nominations for a Darwin award?

[anerlich]

Anyone know how to submit nominations for a Darwin award?

I think death due to a moronic accident is a requirement for eligibility. Being just brain-dead doesn't count.

As for who you are "fighting", a few people IMO need to read or reread "Strong on Defense" and "The Gift of Fear".

[Redd]

Originally posted by anerlich
I think death due to a moronic accident is a requirement for eligibility. Being just brain-dead doesn't count.

It is just a matter of time. I can wait.

[Fresh]

Originally posted by rogue
Here's a really, really dumb question for all of you who are practicing a MA to be a (better) fighter. Who is it you're planning on fighting?:confused:

There's only so many options. Maybe he runs a fight club. He's such a bada$$ and I'm so excited! :D:D:D

[black and blue]

I'm so excited,
And I just can't hide it.
I'm about to lose control,
And I think I like it!

[BeiKongHui]

In his own verbose way R5A does have a point. We are in an art where the vast majority of practioners are good at the drills (such as Chi Sao) but have no idea how to actually fight. I have a Sihing who has good Wing Chun, is furthur along than I am in the system but has NO idea what fighting is all about. Has he wasted his time? No. However, he is overconfident in his ability to fight and will probably be beaten up horribly if he ever gets into a street fight. So, if this fellow becomes a Sifu and this attitude filters down to the students one day someone will get hurt bad and it should be considered partly the his fault for not preparing his students he is supposedly training in a COMBAT system. If you are looking for enlightenment or to become a better person or whatever you need to find a religion, if you just want to relax learn yoga. WCK was made to learn to fight with and nothing else. R5A, I suggest that if you are serious about being a good fighter then you will need to "test" your skills. Now, unless you are a criminal and go around starting crap the best thing to do would be go somewhere that has Vale Tudo or find other (preferably non-WCK people) martial artists and start a sparring group and fight as close to full contact as possible.

[BeiKongHui]

Here's a really, really dumb question for all of you who are practicing a MA to be a (better) fighter. Who is it you're planning on fighting?

Good question. Who do you plan on giving CPR to once you've learned that? Who are you planning on killing when you become a better shot from target practice? Probably no one but you'll be d@mn glad you know how to do those things like they were meant to be done when the time comes and someone's life is in danger.

[yenhoi]

rouge: anyone who looks at me wrong, and anyone whos made it onto my ****list over the years.

:rolleyes:

[red5angel]

Well, it seems that yet again, creative interpretation has taken over. I suggest MOST of you go back and reread my post. Trianing in th emartial arts is about fighting, not about wanting to. I train to fight well if I have to I dont train to go out and fight, but thanks for playing. I have heard enogh from internet geeks and keyboard warriors about what 'real fighting' is all about. Things like this :

"No. However, he is overconfident in his ability to fight and will probably be beaten up horribly if he ever gets into a street fight. So"

Beikonghui - ever known anyone to win their first fight? I have, the idea that you cant win your first fight because you havnet tasted it yet is rediculous and naive.

John Weiland - I have talked with Carl, to clarify your misunderstanding of what it is I said, His goal is not to fight, but to become a better fighter, along with improving himself, his wing chun and to move on to a higher understanding of who he is and his art, but I already said that.

Let me try to put this in clear words so that some of you can get it this time. Martial Arts are about fighting pure and simple. Fine if you do it for any other reason, its your perogative how you use your time and what you use it for. For this forum this thread is applicable since the majority tends to talk much about experience in fighting and wingchun. Wingchun is a combat art, no if ands or buts about it.

For whoever said it you are right, the desire of most soldiers is to not have to go to war, no one wants to die or to get hurt. But the desire is also there to defend what they believe in, thier lives, and the lives of those they love. This too is parellel to thedesires of most fighters, or martial artist. No one wants to get hurt, some dont mind of course but most dont seek it out. However, as my desire is not to fight, I am still learning the martial arts to be a GOOD FIGHTER. I thought I should maybe put those words in bold but I dont think most people will take the time to really understand what that means and what I mean. Most of you dont have a leg to stand on when arguing about this, unless you did some time for your country, or have had to step up to defend friends and or relatives.
Yuanfen, do not presume to compare marine to marine as we are all still individuals and your views on the outside will never amount to true understanding. As marines whether we differ in view or not, we are always there for each other and when the crap goes down we can put those aside and do what we have to do as a team. I highly doubt your overview of who they are is very accurate, I was in the marines for four years and understand it more then you could ever know.

[urban tea]

Redangel,

Do you think you could fight a boxer or muay thai guy?

If you haven't fought against them or had free fighting experience, I"d say you would lose....bad.

[red5angel]

no experience with a professional boxer but my friend is a hobbyist and we have done it in the past. I have had enough experience fighting in the street to know I do ok, you win some you loose some, none of them bad.
This was all of course before I started learning wingchun, except for one. With the stuff I am learning now I know I will be fine, against streetfighter, boxer, or kickboxer.

[yuanfen]

Yuanfen, do not presume to compare marine to marine as we are all still individuals and your views on the outside will never amount to true understanding. As marines whether we differ in view or not, we are always there for each other and when the crap goes down we can put those aside and do what we have to do as a team.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
red5 misses the point again ! Where is the wing chun exposition? Mindless drivel-neither the marines nor Kenneth Chung is reponsible for this. Stuff happens.

[kj]

Originally posted by BeiKongHui
Good question. Who do you plan on giving CPR to once you've learned that? Who are you planning on killing when you become a better shot from target practice? Probably no one but you'll be d@mn glad you know how to do those things like they were meant to be done when the time comes and someone's life is in danger.

Deferring to your examples, how about these questions:

Who do you practice CPR on now in order to ensure your competentence when, if ever, called upon to use it on some mangled and bleeding bloke you can hardly bear to cast eyes upon let alone touch? Who do you shoot now so you can prove and improve your aim and maintain intent true and steady as it needs to be "just in case" a life and death crisis confronts you on some future day?

Unless they've changed the program since I took and taught CPR, hopefully no one and I suspect you'll be d@mn glad didn't. ;)

This gets to the rub of the argument. "Get real" can take on a lot of different meanings depending on a lot of things, Not least of all perspective, values, machismo, maturity, and degree of being rational.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[rogue]

Good question. Who do you plan on giving CPR to once you've learned that? Who are you planning on killing when you become a better shot from target practice? Probably no one but you'll be d@mn glad you know how to do those things like they were meant to be done when the time comes and someone's life is in danger. Do you wear a red cape? ;)

I was just wondering because most every street fight that I've seen that included a martial artists, the MA would win using the most basic of techniques. Or be taken out/down by the most poorly executed and basic of techniques. At what point does doing the art for the sake of the art (enjoyment, passing it on, etc) take over from the pure fighting applications reason for learning an art?

I like the CPR example, and following the logical progression of the argument I'd say being a paramedic is even better and a doctor better still, and then maybe onto a brain surgeon because then if you came across someone with head trauma you'd be ready and glad you speant the time and money to be a brain surgeon. In other words a paramedic plans on using his skills, as does a doctor and the surgeon. So if you're learning an art to be primarily a fighter what level of training is reasonable in relation to the probability of you ever getting into a fight?

BTW Gift of Fear is excellent and is why I've been pushing the book on KFO for several years.

[wingchunalex]

no one here who is a true martial artist will answer that. Fist of all because it's a very rude quesiton. Second because a true martial artist with the true martial spirit will be humble about their abilities. If someone is learning wing chun they should be able to apply what they learn, if they can't then they are not really learning wing chun. (though there are even sifu's who are this way). I would hope that everyone who learns wing chun can apply it, but that sometimes doesn't happen because of fault of the sifu or the studdent. But by questioning people directly you disrespect their teacher and them, even if they cannot apply what they have learned. it will eventually come out who can not apply what they know and they disrespect themselves by not truely learning wing chun, but no one should be so disrepectful as to say "can you fight or not".

[red5angel]

Rogue said - "I like the CPR example, and following the logical progression of the argument I'd say being a paramedic is even better and a doctor better still, and then maybe onto a brain surgeon because then if you came across someone with head trauma you'd be ready and glad you speant the time and money to be a brain surgeon. In other words a paramedic plans on using his skills, as does a doctor and the surgeon. So if you're learning an art to be primarily a fighter what level of training is reasonable in relation to the probability of you ever getting into a fight"

I like the example of CPR or shooting as well. I have a seasonal job wher eI do medical response and security ad my EMT training, although all on dummies or people pretending, have proved to work really well on real problems! The idea that you HAVE to get into a real fight to be a good fighter is obsurd although it will definitely help! Thats what the driling is for.
Rogue you are sort of a non-traditionalist arent you? I know some guys dont go for the drilling and forms etc but I learned something valuable in the Marines, drilling trains you to reat without thinking! Its an important ideal, but one that is sometimes misunderstood or missed.

[red5angel]

Wingchunalex - no offense man but dont be ridiculous. There isnt an issue about asking someone if they can use their skill. what do you think sparring is all about. I sit disrespectful to walk into a school and ask to touch someones hands? Its not necessarily what is said but how it is transmitted that sometimes makes it acceptable or not.

[BeiKongHui]

Who do you practice CPR on now in order to ensure your competentence when, if ever, called upon to use it on some mangled and bleeding bloke you can hardly bear to cast eyes upon let alone touch? Who do you shoot now so you can prove and improve your aim and maintain intent true and steady as it needs to be "just in case" a life and death crisis confronts you on some future day?

We practice CPR on a dummy which is the appropriate platform just like sparring (not chi sau) is the appropriate platform to learn to fight. We practice shooting at clay pidgeons or other moving targets because like in fighting your opponent doesn't just stand there (nor does he allow you to stick, stay in close, etc.). So why do you guys who think it's "machismo" to train in the way the founders of the system intended even do martial art? It wasn't created so we could feel good about ourselves or get famous writing articles on the same topics over & over. Why not take up Ballroom dancing? It is better for your health and you can play at it all you want and never have to worry wether you'll be able to win a dance contest. Anyone who doesn't constantly push the envelope of their abilities in as close to real situations as possible is fooling themselves and cheating their students.

[BeiKongHui]

I didn't say you had to get in a real fight. I said you need to do something such as spar to get the closest approximation of the real thing. As for someone winning their first fight, well, that's nice but I'd put my money on the untrained flailer not someone who thinks Chi Sau is fighting and has never worked under stress or against a fully resisting non-WCK opponent.

[BeiKongHui]

Anyone who doesn't constantly push the envelope of their abilities in as close to real situations as possible is fooling themselves and cheating their students.

I would clarify that it's everyone's right to teach what they want but if you are from a lineage that doesn't train to fight you should not tell new people who come in that they will learn to defend themselves. Perhaps, this type of WCK should be relegated to the level of Communist Tai Chi. They are both after all good solid martial arts that have been made safe and sanitary for mass consumption.

[{i^(]

Welcome to my rambling, sweeping generalization.

Looking at history & human nature, I've come to realize that its a mistake to assume that ALL Chinese who learned any art used it exclusively, or even necessarily well, regardless of how they trained (ie. for 'art' or 'war'). Any fighter uses everything they know.

YES, I'll explain (jeeziz. sh willya?)
1. Most of the recorded battles/fights/whatever are between masters, and those that aren't are fairly modern. (zip it- see 2.)

2. All accounts are passed down solely because they highlight the fightin' style. (yeh yeh, see 3)

3. I'm saying that they all had pasts (wrestling as kids, streetfight moves) that included things NOT found in an art- and they didn't pass that down, because its NOT PART OF THE ART IN QUESTION. This is analogous to Fencing, wherein there were brutal moves (smashing hilts to the face, breaking the oppo.'s leg, etc.) that are NOT taught now. Why? Social class distinctions perhaps? That is a part of it- and note, i'm not talking about the sport of fencing, but the way the Elizabethans officially taught it, when it was martial. (got a bag of sh! for ya)

SO: Who can fight? Is it ART or 'Fighting'?
ANSWER: EVERYONE CAN FIGHT, but WING CHUN is ART. Sui generis.

It became what it is because it is an art worth preserving. AND YES IT CAN FIGHT. The bigger question is: why is any art of any sort worth preserving?

[red5angel]

"So why do you guys who think it's "machismo" to train in the way the founders of the system intended even do martial art?"

The paragraph with this sentence in it is exactly what I have been trying to say, maybe your way of putting it will sink in.
As for fighting, Rogue and I ,I believe discussed this before, If you have had experience then you are 'more' likely to win, I would agree with you. Soldiers who go from green to experiencing thier first combat increase their chances of survival immensly just by experiencing it! Fighting is the same way, and I do believe that with experience you have an advantage. Some have been known to claim that without fighting experience you are as good as dead, but I believe Martial training not only trains you to fight, but gets you better prepared

[Geezer]

no one here who is a true martial artist will answer that. Fist of all because it's a very rude quesiton. Second because a true martial artist with the true martial spirit will be humble about their abilities.

Doesn't he remember his past posts where he openly insulted other WCK families.?


But by questioning people directly you disrespect their teacher and them,

Can he say "I Like To Contradict Myself".?:)

[red5angel]

Face - I am not sure anyone is assuming all chinese martial artist Learned martial arts to fight, obviously some people dont today. My initial point was that whether other arts are or not, Wingchun is a fighting art. There are other arts, dancing is one that keeps coming up, that are good for the other goals people might be trying to reach with wingchun.
Someone familiar with Buddha can maybe say whether he created a martial art for the shaolin monks or did he create a dance? All I know is the he was supposed to have noticed the ill health of the monks and so created an "excersise program" for them.

[fa_jing]

Like my Sifu says "Sparring is not optional"
Like BL said "you can't learn to swim on dry land"

Your chances of surving a swim at sea with high waves are increased if you've practiced in a pool. If you have the experience of swimming in the ocean with high waves, you will be better at surviving should the experience re-occur. But, does this mean you should go out and swim in high waves? No, you should practice in the pool, it will increase your overall surviveability because if you train in the high waves, you may die during training.
However, if you only learn to swim on dry land, you will definitely not survive a swim in active waters and you should definite avoid boats except for luxury cruise ships. :)

This analogy doesn't even take into account the moral issues.

[{i^(]

How about this?

You wrapped yourself in the flag earlier, mentioning your service in Uncle Sam's Misguided Children. Well, I've done my service (Navy, yo. Bos'n) as well, and I'm sure many have.

For me, it was a family obligation- we're Irish and have been here for quite some time- we had captains who died in the Battle of Orriskenny (spelling wrong, likely) in the Revolution, and it just keeps going like a nightmare. But still we go: we're Irish- dumb Micks. Desire to fight? Part, but not all, not at all.

Now: family obligation, see? Precludes doing something else, like the Peace Corps. Think back, and I'm sure you'll remember other examples from the USMC.

[{i^(]

ok?

[kj]

Originally posted by BeiKongHui We practice CPR on a dummy which is the appropriate platform just like sparring (not chi sau) is the appropriate platform to learn to fight. We practice shooting at clay pidgeons or other moving targets because like in fighting your opponent doesn't just stand there (nor does he allow you to stick, stay in close, etc.).

Precisely. As George Box put it "All models are wrong. Some models are useful." The only thing that precisely models a "real thing" is the "real thing" itself. Same is true for CPR application, range shooting, or "reality fighting" with or without Wing Chun.

As you suggest, simulations can obviously be helpful in all those endeavors and more. So I've no disagreement on that point, though with the caveat that risks, liabilities and opportunity costs (including those of a moral nature) still apply.

I propose that "fighting" isn't a single specific thing, despite the rather frequent and careless tossing about of the term. Conceptually, it spans an endless number of unique scenarios, and in context of unique people and their unique lives.

Thus, common assertions like "If you are bothering to learn wing chun then you should be bothering to fight with it" are fatally oversimplified, in my estimation. Aside from the obvious emotional appeal and propensity to offend, statements of this kind are baseless rhetoric.


Anyone who doesn't constantly push the envelope of their abilities in as close to real situations as possible is fooling themselves and cheating their students.

Again, you have a valid point, though oversimplified by virtue of a narrow conclusion. Judgements about such things as "fooling" and "cheating," while interesting in implication, do not necessarily and logically follow from the premise. Nor does it accommodate the far wider spectrum of potentially relevant factors. While it may be that someone is "fooling" or "cheating," it isn't necessarily so.

My perennial point (yes, I actually have one, though doing my darn best to obfuscate it, LOL) is that despite advantages and disadvantages for different courses of action, we "ought" not too casually oversimplify the issues and ramifications involved when judging situations, people or what "we think" ought to be. "Fighting" is just the example du jour.

Save for the proficient mind readers among us, assertions about the motives or intent of others are rarely complete or accurate. [In this case, making assertions about why others choose to fight or not in light of whatever is connoted in use of the term.] Not even my own beliefs about others can hold to that highest standard, and I assure you I am exceptionally perceptive, LOL. Validity and accuracy of our assumptions and assertions further deteriorates when we broaden to speak about people in "general."

That others may choose a different course of action or assess the balance of benefits, risks, and liabilities differently than we ourselves do, does not automatically justify or validate our beliefs or opinions. What we assign to others can sometimes reveal more about our own nature, motivation, character, capabilities or shortcomings than it tells about them.

The fact that we may "feel strongly" about what someone else ought or ought not to do isn't enough to validate our viewpoint.

None of this denies in the least that Wing Chun is a system designed for fighting. (There, that ought to ensure confusion for some, LOL.)

Just sharing some pensive amusement, from my own little Fantasy Island. ;) Thanks for engaging. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[rogue]

The idea that you HAVE to get into a real fight to be a good fighter is obsurd although it will definitely help! Thats what the driling is for. That wasn't my point. The point being if your primary purpose is to be a great fighter whom is it that you're looking to fight. It doesn't take that long or too many techniques to be a good fighter against the majority of people. If you're studying to be a great fighter among fighters then you still don't need too many techniques but the time to master them increases, but you should have an idea of who your going to fight. I find relaxing and learning a martial art for what it is, not to become a kung fu kommando, get's me further in learning the details of the art. Less distractions. Now by it's very nature a martial art along with proper training should enable you to fight.


Rogue you are sort of a non-traditionalist arent you? I know some guys dont go for the drilling and forms etc but I learned something valuable in the Marines, drilling trains you to reat without thinking! I yam what's I yam. :) My training in any art is currently based upon kihon, kata & kumite (fundamentals, forms and sparring). One isn't more important than the others.

"drilling trains you to reat without thinking",
sometimes that's a good thing when thinking will slow you down, other times thinking is what needs to be done, especially if you haven't drilled for the situation that you find yourself in.

Also didn't your superiors in the Marines know who you had to get ready to fight against and trained you for that?

[anerlich]

Kathy Jo, your posts raise the intellectual level of this debate (admittedly the bar is pretty low). Good job.

Rogue, Have you read "Strong on Defense"? Excellent book, written by a San Diego cop who has survived live or death situations in the job, and has been involved in situations where average people survived (or did not survive) violent crimes perpetrated against them. His view is that martial skill is one of the LEAST important attributes in surviving or avoiding such encounters. Also that ESCAPE is far more important than VICTORY in such situations.

I can't recommend this book highly enough. One of very few books I feel I could give to my wife, mother, children I know and feel that their reading it WOULD increase their chances of survival.

GOF is for situations that evolve over time. SOD is for random and immediate violence as perpetrated by your typical opportunistic criminal - muggers, carjackers, etc.

[dbulmer]

Anerlich,
Books by Geoff Thompson are pretty good as well.

[rogue]

anerlich, Thanks, I'll pick that one up based on your recomendation.


His view is that martial skill is one of the LEAST important attributes in surviving or avoiding such encounters. Also that ESCAPE is far more important than VICTORY in such situations. Couldn't agree more.

I'm guessing SOD is self-defense? But what's GOF? :confused:

Just checked out the book, I've liked what Strong had to say on TV, I'm getting this one this week. Thanks again.

[anerlich]

Rogue, I'm sure you'll find it a great reference. Let us know what you think!

SOD - Strong on Defense
GOF - Gift of Fear

Yeah, dbulmer, I agree. I've got all Geoff T's "real ..." books, "The Fence", "The art of fighting without fighting" and "Fear - the friend of exceptional people". Lots of good reading on his website too.

[urban tea]

Redangel

How old are you?

[tiger_1]

my friend red5angel like first im dnt say noting more just my friendly oppinion , and im like to say im have many fight in past im be in 2 warrs that bad warrs , point its must beliwe in wing chun must see wing chun than you have opportunity for to be createur to be parth of kung fu im dnt know but that its point wingchun its that powerfol that speed and good chi sao so..... ok cool just friendly tiger_1:)

[reneritchie]

Anerlich is correct and recommends great books.

KJ is correct and eloquent as always.

John is correct and nice to read from again.

Sunkuen is correct and amusing.

Jason is incorrect in thinking everyone is incorrect, but it a marvelous stir-pot and rabble rouser.

RR

[Rolling_Hand]

Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anerlich is correct and recommends great books.

KJ is correct and eloquent as always.

John is correct and nice to read from again.

Sunkuen is correct and amusing.

Jason is incorrect in thinking everyone is incorrect, but it a marvelous stir-pot and rabble rouser.

RR
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yoda!!!

[reneritchie]

Yoda fights like sonic the hedgehog, or maybe X-Treme Bagua?

RR

[red5angel]

Tiger_1 - what you say is accurate. I know how war is, and I believe in my wingchun. Thanks for the friendly words.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by red5angel
Tiger_1 - what you say is accurate. I know how war is, and I believe in my wingchun. Thanks for the friendly words. Red5Angel,

Aw, c'mon. You saw a lot of hand-to-hand combat, did ya'? After your 12 hours of training in it in boot camp? Not to mention how useless the training really is. The only reason we teach our ARMED FORCES hand-to-hand is to instill some (over) confidence in young minds filled with mush.

Real combat has no bearing on these discussions. Using Wing Chun for real combat is like police carrying rocks to throw. Lay off the war references. Show some respect for the forum members and the men who are still engaged in protecting our freedoms.

I know you'll ignore this advice like you always do, but the people who point out your weaknesses are not your enemies.

Regards,

[red5angel]

john, did you serve? what force? what war did you go to? ME, I didnt go to a war per se, I went to somalia. Your right, no hand to hand, why do it when I have a gun? My unit caught sniper fire all the time. Thats their way there.
12 hours is about right, in basic. I will be one of the first to say most of it is garbage, like you said, to give you some confidence in the field. My year and a half in karate would have worked better.
As for some of those men working for our freedom, I did it. Some of those men I served next to. how about you?

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Please see the post which is mostly dedicated to yourself.

You went to Somolia, good for you. What does that have to do with your Wing Chun? Why are you so adament about trying to boost yourself up?

I personally take some small offense with your apparent assertion that you not only have more knowledge concerning Wing Chun than those with MANY more years than yourself, but now you seem to have a great amount of experience concerning War. Red, I hate to say this but, Grow up!. I rarely like to be this blunt but members of your own lineage have asked you to rethink you posting methods. Your comments and attitude are insulting to those who have made sacrifices in War and for those who have made an effort to break down the barriers between our different lineages.

Peace,

Dave

[urban tea]

redangel

how old are you?