Attn: SevenStar

[Croaker]

Read you're comments on Shiao Chiao (probably mangled that spelling) on another thread. Since you seem familiar with it:

I have heard that it uses similar footwork to Judo, but with a lot more striking setups. However, the only proponent that I know of even by reputation is Matt Furey. Past reading indicated that the best modern practitioner (a near legendary chinese military guy) was a killer with his 'chop' throw...or osoto, as I would know it. I have also heard good things about what would be called the body drop (tai-otoshi) in Judo.

How do the throws' mechanics work as compared to Judo/Wrestling footwork? What are the normal set-ups? What else would be helpful to know about it?

[SevenStar]

footwork is basically the same. you are trying to control your center anr manipulate your opponent's so that you can throw him. the basic way of doing this is to

1. make contact with the opponent
2. kazhushi, or off balance him
3. throw/takedown

shuai chiao will use striking to help make contact and get in grappling range with the opponent. sport judo doesn't utilize that much, as it's simpler to make contact. once contact is made, you will steal the opponent's balance my pulling/pushing him off balance, or by bumping him with your body.

tai otoshi is one of my favorite throws. if you've never seen it, you can check out www.judoinfo.com - they have clips of it in the vids section, and there is a tutorial of how to do it in the "take a judo lesson" section.

[fa_jing]

Hey GREAT site! We practice Ippon Seoinage and the body drop too.

[SevenStar]

yeah, judoinfo is excellent. thre are a few others out there too, but judoinfo is by far the best I've seen.

oh yeah, Croaker, you asked about mechanics. Once of the more obvious ones I've noticed is the method of throwing. judo tends to load the opponent on the hip, whereas shuai chiao does not. a good example of this is the judo throw koshi guruma. the opponent is loaded onto the throwers hip for leverage, then thrown. the equivalent shuai chiao throw is neck surround. neck surround is similar, only there is no hip loading, only momentum. My guess is that it's due to the nature of the arts - in judo no striking is allowed, so you off balance and pull the opponent into you, using the hip to leverage him over. in shuai chiao, you are on the receiving end of a punch. since he's punching, he already has forward momentum, which you exploit by doing the technique - he aids in his own offbalancing and has forward momentum, so there is no need hip load him.

[Water Dragon]

TTT for a responce from MonkeySlap and GGL

[Croaker]

Thanks SevenStar

You can be more specific if you want...I have 23 years of Judo spread over my aching body ;) Judoinfo is a great site...been there lots. The 'neck surround' also exists in Judo, BTW.

Tai-otoshi has always been a favorite of mine. I heard that the SC (not going to try spelling it again) method of tai otoshi involves a 'running' kazushi. I think I can imagine it, but can you explain it to me?

Also,does the practitioner set up the throw by his own strikes, the opponents strikes, or a combination of both?

The other thread also talked about sweeps. How do they differ? Are they used more or less than in Judo

Thanks for your time.

[Water Dragon]

Go ahead Sev, you can give him the plug this time :D

[MonkeySlap Too]

Shuai Chiao and Judo share a great money techniques. Here is my view from having a shodan in Judo before I started Shuai Chiao:

The footwork is different - Shuai Chiao does not spend as much time on the balls of the feet. It also uses 'body structure' similar to a Shaolin style in the footwork.

Shuai Chiao has a lot more throws - but no sacrifice throws. Throws that were pulled out of Judo for safety reasons, are still in Shuai Chiao.

There is no groundwork in Shuai Chiao.

Shuai Chiao demonstrates a much more sophisticated set of combat skills - but no chokes, holds or sacrifice throws - at least in the sense you think of them in judo.

Now - that is the most generic overview - Shuai Chiao in Chinese means wrestling, so it could refer to all kinds of wrestling. What I am describing is the Shuai Chiao style of martial arts practiced in my school, as taught to me by Dr. Brian Wu, a student of Chang Tung Sheng.

This Shuai Chiao utilizes all facets of CMA -Ti, Da, Shuai, Na. But the emphasis is on the Shuai - kicking and punching are only used to 'open the door' on the opponent.

Judo is pretty much practiced as a sport. Shuai Chiao is also - but in addition to wrestling, there is san da practice.

Judo is great - I recommend it to people all the time. For the street, I prefer Shuai Chiao, simply because it teaches you for the street, rather than the mat. But given a choice between a kick/punch guy and a judo guy, I'll pick the judo guy everytime. You get tough doing judo!

Finally, if you look at a syllabus of throws from Sumo - and picture skinny guys doing it - you will have the basic shuai chiao throws. Sumo evolved from Shuai Chiao. There are dozens of stand-up folk wrestling styles throughout the region. Judo however, had a slightly different evoloutionary path, at least I think so.

Training in Shuai Chiao can improve your judo game, but you will get called for illegal throws!

[SevenStar]

go to shuaichiao.org and click on "throw alley" there is a technique called "ripping to kwai" it's not tai otoshi, but it may demonstrate the running you were referring to.

I believe judo uses sweeps more than shuai chiao.

[SevenStar]

And now for the plug :D

send a pm to WaterDragon - he started a shuai chiao mailing list. as ya might have guessed, we use it to talk about shuai chiao :)

[Croaker]

Thanks for the info, guys. For the record: I learned Judo both as an Olympic style and as a MA, but you're right, it's mostly practiced in the Dojo's in it's IJF form. BJJ ( which I feel is a subset of complete Judo) has fewer rules and you still see stuff in it that you won't see at an IJF school.

Having more throws than Judo is interesting...or are you talking about competition style?

You hooked me; I'll get off here and go for the PM now. Thanks for the time.

Very cool

[SevenStar]

Glad ya like it. Did you check out that shuai chiao clip?

And in case nobody's formally said it, Welcome to KFO

[Water Dragon]

Which art tends to have more injuries, and why?

[Croaker]

SevenStar

Saw the clips: very, very similar (identical?) to various Judo throws, so it must be good ;). Hand set-ups are also reminiscient of some of the KF entries I learned years ago.

Gee, I wonder why that is...and people call me stupid


Monkeyslap

Judo is about the roughest martial art that I've ever seen or felt...and that includes boxing and Muay Thai. I've seen tournaments where all three mats were stopped for the paramedics to care for the injuries. If Shuai Chiao (I spelled it right 'cause I peeked) is anything like that then I'm definitely interested.

[MonkeySlap Too]

WD - I saw a lot more injuries in Judo - I think it was because of the time limits causing people to exhaust themselves with groundwork, making them more prone to injury. Not to mention the endless broken toes! Although I've seen plenty of injuries in San Shou.

Croaker - Shuai Chiao is like Judo on acid. Try the ACSCA rules San Da competition. Kick-Punch-Throw! Total fun. Send me a PM with your location, and I'll try to identfy a good coach in your area.

With your Judo background you'll go bonkers with some of the variety of throws.