What do you mean when you say you "spar"?

[Fresh]

Not trying to be dense here. I just have a hunch everyone doesn't mean the same thing when they talk about sparring.

What do you mean when you say you "spar"? How far do you go? What kind of limits do you set? How often do you do it? Is is part of your chi sao or a different thing? How is your sparring different from "fighting?

[black and blue]

We don't really spar if people mean point sparring (and in this case, thank God we don't).

We do have one-step (and two, three, four-step) sparring, though we just refer to these as feeding techniques.

No pads. One designated attacker, and one designated defender. The attacker, errr... attacks with a punch, grab, kick or a series of any of them. And the defender counters. None of it's prearranged.

Beginners go slow... very slow, as no pads can lead to nasty lumps. As we progress we throw in harder, faster, sneaker and street-situation attacks (i.e. grab and headbutt, jab followed by hook, those horrible blind upper cuts, feints etc).

These are all done from a neutral stance. First timers start from a 'healthy' distance and gradually move on (well, move in) to a realistic distance (i.e a couple of feet away).

Some times we add in aggression training. The attacker gives a bit of verbal to intimidate (though with friends some of these comments and insults can have you on the floor... from laughter).

Duncan

[BeiKongHui]

Sparring isn't just one thing. Sometimes we spar slow with light contact to give people time to react with clean technique other times it's full on fighting with about %70-%80 percent power which puts you under a lot of stress and makes it hard to preform as well as you would under ideal circumstances.

[black and blue]

Frank Exchange... coming from WSL lineage

Red5Angel... coming from LS lineage and wanting to improve his fighting skills

Mat... coz you never talk to me any more :p, and you're kinda cross training with the Japanese at present. How is Japan, fella? Oh, saw your photo on the main forum. LOL. Cheesy pose, mate.

[Frank Exchange]

In my school, it means starting off a few metres apart, beyond kicking distance. We then have to bridge the gap, using footwork to pass rapidly through the danger zone of kicking distance into chisao range. The intent is to hit immediately, be it kick or hand strike, once closed to punching distance then the intent is again to hit rather than chisao, elements of chisao are only used when necessary.

That is the ideal of course! In general the contact lasts for about 3-5 seconds, which is usually enough for one party to get a dominant position and fire off enough hits to settle the issue.

Occaisonally you get lucky (or skilled!) and can finish the thing with a single kick or couple of punches, which can take less than a second.

No pads are worn, so you do get occaisonal minor injuries, however this level of contact is only done when both practioners are of sufficient skill so that they can control and neutralise most of there opponents moves, and control the level of their own strikes, so injuries are minimized.

Interestingly, we teach the opposite in distancing to Black and Blue's school, we teach the close range stuff first, then move out further, so that you will reach this distance of "sparring" only after maybe 4-5 years.

The rationale behind this is that most fights tend to start at very close range, punching distance, so that is the range that is we choose to teach first.

And, it is not point sparring! If I take a scrape to the side of my head an instant before my opponent gets a couple of good ones on the chin, we both know who would come off worse. Its not necessarily about the first hit, no-one is keeping score, but you tend to know who you are doing!

This is about the closest we get to what others might call sparring, as it starts from "traditional" sparring distance, where neither opponent can initial touch the other.

Occaisonally we do the two on one scenario, which is great for positioning, awareness and use of props (doorways, furniture etc).

I need to get some pads, so we can do the same thing at full power. But I do so love those cut lips, ****it, and the resulting mouth ulcers are such a joy! ;)

[black and blue]

I think you're correct in saying most fights happen in very close distance. The reason we don't start out at the eye-ball to eye-ball range is because beginners don't yet have the balance, motions, arsenal to deal with the attacks.

At this range everything happens in about a second. The hardest thing for me is reading the attack. Low shots and awkward body blows are almost impossible to see coming... I guess it's about reading an opponent's entire body movement, no matter how small that movement.

We start beginners from a comfortable distance but take the entry technique and bridging nice and slow - just try and map out our motions to start with. But all this said, I'm probably not qualified to explain the in's and out's of Kamon protocol and methods. The above is my experience of how we work.

I can relate, obviously, to being black and blue. My ugliest knock - a whack to the left testicle which brought a tear to the eye and a gasp from the two guys that saw it happen. :(

[wingchunalex]

sometimes we sparr supper slow, at like tai chi speed. that way both people can really focus on perfecting their technique. then we have normal slow sparring. its not hard, both people are just trying to apply what they know. Then we do normal sparring. this is like a good moderate speed, a little fast but not warp speed. It puts both people under pressure so they have to force them selves to try and apply techniques that are not fully a part of them. in these three level the target area is from the bottom of the neck down to the waist. advanced students go to the head. The forth level is full contact. we put on the pads and go at it hard and fast. But the "normal" or third level is usually what I mean when I refer to sparring.

[black and blue]

LOL... so many degrees of slowness. What about 'bullet time' from the Matrix?

Keanu Kung Fu - chain punching at 0.0000000001 punches a second! :D :D :p

[Frank Exchange]

B&B

Re: distance, different emphasis, I guess.

I should have mentioned that our training is all lumped together as "chisao", rightly or wrongly. WSL didnt tend to differentiate between chisao as an exercise and as sparring, or even as full contact, just different levels of intent. I know some schools treat it as just a way to develop feeling and reflexes, where as we tend to go a bit further with it. And obviously you dont use the same intent with a beginner as you do with you seniors.

I know that some schools have seen what we do at higher level chisao, and say it isnt chisao at all, but sparring, which is why I posted what I did.

When my instructors go at it together it is pretty much full contact, with no pads, but as they are very similar in ability and experience (started the same time, trained the same way with each other for 30 years), then they tend to neutralise each other very well. Any slight mistake does result in a minor injury though.


For what it is worth, I would like to see more contact with pads, and more pressure testing, like your shouting and "psychological warfare", that's a great approach. Sometimes one of our more senior guys (with a lot of street experience) during chisao sometimes grabs you or double palms your shoulders, shouting "Oi, ****ing leave it out, mate!", which is a great shock to the system, but I like the way you train it constantly.

But I can see the dangers. If one of my training partners called me a butt-monkey or a nad-nudger he would have the perfect opportunity to do me over whilst I was cracking up.
:D

[fa_jing]

12-16 oz. boxing gloves and headgear, level of contact varies.
Whether or not we do takedowns, kicks, and groundfighting also varies.

[Lindley57]

Chi Sao is an exercise. It is often referred to as "the bridge between real fighting and the forms". It is a laboratory where partners can "discuss" and analyze. It can, by nature, get to be competitive.

Sparring is nothing but competitive, but can be quite useful and be an extension to Chi Sao training. Sparring can be called "a friendly test of skill". In Chi Sao, you can only play hands with someone else who is playing Chi Sao. Sparring can be done with anyone of any style. The problem sometimes with Sparring is there is no discussion of what went on during the session. Nor is there a breakdown to focus on a specific idea (i.e how to defend against a kick). The mindset is usually if fighter A is lighting fighter B up with a round house kick, fighter A will probably not slow it down and allow Fighter B to understand how or why the kick is so good or how to defend against it. Fighter A will probably go home feeling good while fighter B will want to quit or think their martial art or martial art skill level is bad. Most people who have studied other styles smile when I tell them this because they know that is how people feel. However, when there was a communication element in sparring, then it is very useful. One way to avoid the sparring session from being a limited "drill" is to have each participant focus on a training aspect, but freely express it. If not a breakdown while sparring, at the very least a discussion after the session is over.

In Wing Chun we have the seldom mentioned my san jong. This is a referred to as the true "test of ones kung fu" and is setup by your Sifu against another stylist (could be a kung fu brother, person from another style, etc.) There is no rolling, no protective equipment. This is an all out fight using one's Wing Chun skills.

Real or "street" fighting is different from all the above, usually with Emotion playing the biggest element in this distinction. Even in my san jong, you do not "hate" your opponent or feel a sense of revenge because they did something to you or your family. A fight is often by surprise, involving stress and adreniline flows that often stymie ones ability to think. A real fight should be viewed (and often times is) a life or death situation. This is where your Kung Fu can be what we refer to as "battle tested". You know who probably is the most feared person? Another martial artist with great skill? Probably not. How about the crazy guy who wants to hurt you at any cost. For you to effectively use the chi sao or sparring training to prepare for real fighting, one must train so that their kung fu is instinctive. Don't rely on choreographed movements or isolated techniques, but focus on your job - taking the center with balance, relaxation, coordination and timing. Nothing there, you go forward and don't stop.

To answer the original question about sparring, the posts here are very good because they vary. One of the first things beginners must do is "empty their cup". Getting people's different definitions of sparring allow you to come to be creative and come to your own conclusions.

Good Luck in your Kung Fu

[Fresh]

Originally posted by black and blue
Red5Angel... coming from LS lineage and wanting to improve his fighting skills

Mat... coz you never talk to me any more :p, and you're kinda cross training with the Japanese at present. How is Japan, fella? Oh, saw your photo on the main forum. LOL. Cheesy pose, mate.

Hey yeah I wanna hear from those guys too. You didn't go hiding on us now did you red dude? ;) :D

Thanks to all you guys who replied so far. Lindley57 that was great. Looks like everygody has kinda different ideas about what sparring is and ways to do it.

[jesper]

WT

In our organisation we have different kinds of sparring ranging from light to super heavy.

the most common form is a combo of light sparring and endurance training where you put 5-10 people together in a group.
You then place on guy in the middle and let the other attack him, one after the other in a clockwise motion. this will really drain the person in the middle since he gets no rest. Usually you go three time around the circle, where your first attack is by hands, your second attack by feet and the third attack is freestyle. The level of intensity depends on the skill level of the guy in the middle.
It is very benefitionary in many ways, but there are two things you train here, which are super important in a fight. 1 you get your stamina up (its really draining to be the poor sod in the middle), 2 you raise your awareness level, since you dont get to pause after you have just desposed of your previous attacker before the next takes a swing at you.

On the other hand you also get to be in the fight club, which is where you really gets the chance to pummel the other guy. Here you put on full safety gear and fights your partner to the last.
There are no rules except what is dictated by common sense (dont break bones etc). And basicly the fight doesnt stop until the ref says so, which means your not safe just because the fight has gone to the ground. This is very hard fighting and not many can stand up to this. Oh and if you wonder who your fighting, well everybody puts there name in a box and you are simply picked by lottery. So he may be about your same level, but then again he may be much better. Just as in real life :)

[Mr Punch]

Sparring eh?

Most of my training is with other foreign types, including a couple of very big guys. We have Irish, Germans, a Swiss, Canadians, Americans... and oh yeah, a smidgeon of Japanese chaps and -esses.

We do a lot of one step drills (attacker wails in, 'defender' wails him!). This is under the banner of San Sao (paired drills - don't know the exact translation), where we are usually trying to work one particular move if it's appropriate to the attack. We also sometimes do poon sau and very occasionally some gor sau.

So the sparring is very varied. Most of the foreigners have had no or limited experience before WC, and the Hawaiian school which my present school comes from has some HUGE guys, so I have to say that most of the sparring with the foreigners is far too heavy and dangerous (we don't use padding, except rather oddly, goggles and groin guards!)!! Most of my school are also fairly new to WC (two years or so) so it's a pretty dangerous affair in terms of lack of control!!

We do sometimes use full armour and go ape!

One of my Japanese sijo is some degree or other of Shotokan black belt and embodies completely the opposite of the stiffness you might expect, but then she's pretty small, and doesn't have the option to use strength. Similarly, one of my Japanese sihing is a couple of degrees of Goju-ryu and he is incredibly soft, but his positioning is excellent and always surprising, and his delivery is very powerful.

Generally, we don't vary speed in any of the sparring. In San Sao, however, we limit the number of strikes coming in, but still usually at full or pretty near full speed. And as far as power goes, it depends completely on the level of the participants. Some of my brothers are dangerous cos they really can't empty their punches, but it keeps you sharp, and in many ways, it actually helps me to relax so that I can blast through or flow around as needs be.

Occasionally I get to spar with some of my friends from other styles: kyoukushinkai and various other karate, and sometime soon I'm hoping to have a go with an acquaintance who is the Number 2 Shooto fighter in Japan, who's pretty well trained in Muay Thai and BJJ among other things, and another who's one of the Okinawan Shorinji champions who breaks boards with his toes :eek: ... I'll keep you posted!

Oh yeah: we do gauntlets too, which are excellent for positioning, endurance, relaxation, rooting, awareness and structure. And some kind of circular type number like Jesper's just described. Can be hairy.


As for the photo, I didn't think my gf was actually gonna take the **** thing, so that was my kind of defiant pose! 'Sides, when you're as beautiful as me, you gotta do something to make people feel better about themselves! :cool: :p :rolleyes: :D ...


...coz you never talk to me any more...

... you wish!

[black and blue]

B'Jesus man, sounds like you're training hard! Was good to hear the comments regarding Karate.

I did Karate for a couple of years from the age of 10. (Ahuh... you can imagine the standard :) ) and for years had the impression it was stiff and slow and awkward.

Then a few summers ago while playing tennis I saw a Shotokan class through a gym window, and went inside to take a look. They were of a high standard, moved bloody quickly, and looked as though they could take off a guys head in seconds. Very impressive.

Some times you've just got to bow to those crazy Japanese arts. My girlfriend spent two and half years teaching in Japan and loved it. I babble about Chinese arts, she counters with info on the tea ceremony... she always beats me down... she's just got too much knowledge, d@rn it!

Women!

How long are you in Japan for, Mat?

[Mr Punch]

It may sound like it, but it's not that hard really...! Not as hard as the tea ceremony anyway: that's nails! (And I'm not kidding :eek: !)

It is difficult trying to remain relaxed with so many different body types and skill levels, but that's part of the fun! (Sorry, dedication...)