burning incense... why 3?

[Siuhoimoon]

I've noticed that in taoist or buddhist rituals or even in martial arts class (kung fu, especifically), the priest, monk or teacher always light 3 incense sticks... why not 1 or 2? What is the simbolism behind that?

I would apreciate some comments about it....

Thanks in advance for the help, folks!

[Serpent]

Three is a very lucky number in Chinese philosophy, as are it's combinations: 3 x 3 = 9, so 9 is also very powerful, 27 (3 x 9), 81 (9 x 9) and so on.

Also, remember the Tao Te Ching:

"From one comes two, from two comes three, from three come the ten thousand things."

Three is very powerful in most cultures. It's always a magical number and very few cultures are without some form of Trinity.

[Cody]

Thought you gave a good answer. But, I'm perplexed by Why this is so. Just the concept of numbers at all confuses me. Not the practical application. Anyone can see one, two or three of anything visible, and exchange objects. But "even," "odd," and certain numbers (like three and its multiples), and preferences for one or the other don't make sense to me. Yet, I too, have number preferences I can't explain. (I guess you can tell I sank in math.)

It would be laborious to catalogue numerical significances in many things. Yet, the fundamental question remains for me.

Cody

[Serpent]

Look outside the box a little bit and your perception can broaden. What's the strongest structural shape? A triangle. Three points of construction. When life procreates there are two that give birth to a third and the family is created (not so in protozoic activity, of course! ;) ) There are numerous example in life of a trinity being the most powerful concept or of a trinity giving forth a more numerous result (as in procreation.)

There is a power in threes that is beyond our words, so it's hard to conceive of it by considering only the human number. Try to consider the trinity rather than the 3. (And by trinity I don't mean the Father, Son, Holy Ghost version specifically). Imagine trinity as a concept and look out for it. You'll see it everywhere!

[Cody]

I'll try. Not used to thinking that way. I guess the last time I looked at anything in terms of how you speak was when I visited Gothic cathedrals in England. um, I'm "feeling" a rumble. My mind jumps immediately to shapes, supports, structures which cannot be seen. Unfortunately, I do not have the sort of mind that can explore such things adequately.
Thank you for showing me something special. I appreciate it. It's one reason why I come to the boards.

Cody

[Cody]

:) Am understanding what you are saying. The lines between material significance, or a mystical quality/quantity, or superstition can shift like sands. Yet, as Serpent has pointed out, there are numbers and combos which recur often enough, in terms of structural support for instance, that one such as myself might seek a deeper root, or at least acknowledge that what we see is the surface. (By the way, it is important to add that I'm an atheist. So, my glancing is not a search for the divine, or even for the Beginning, just to look at what is.)
In my view, you are quite correct that numbers are a tool. The numbers are names for concepts which we use as tools to explore our world, and to build in it, to make sense of it.

your caution is well noted.

Cody

[Serpent]

Well said, Guohen.

Remember that as soon as we name (or number) something, we reduce it to a human concept. Try to feel, not "know". Certainly far easier said than done!

Cody, good luck in your search!

[Cody]

Thumbs up to first comment. Ideas:

When we name something, we define it within a verbal paradigm. Some things said to be defined are merely described. Language allows us to share abstract concepts, and also provides a false sense of security in terms of knowing. "We've defined it." or, "We've defined it for me; now let's define it for you." Then there will be the hunt for the "Truth." ahem. the truth for me, for you, for the squirrel living under the porch, for the man who runs effortlessly, for one who feels the earth heavily......, the common or objective truth(s).

The knowing, without language, a primal knowing, is different, and not all that easy to do. I am thinking in terms of feelings without words. Feeling without the descriptive words in mind, or even available. It like comes from a different place in the brain, and is very intense. There is a difference. I'm referring specifically to emotion. I've known this; not often and not for long, because the rational/verbal brain takes over. Apart from emotional experience, I believe that there is a knowing brain which functions without language. One "has a feeling," so to speak. It can be a "knowing" though. I think you already realize this. I am thinking of some who might not. Who are mistaking feeling their way for what is sometimes a different kind of knowing. about as far as I've been able to go with this. It's kind of rough around the edges. But, I think that therein lies the realm of No-Mind.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Cody

[Serpent]

No worries. You're on a good path now. Just keep going.

[MonkeyBoy]

There is birth, life and death.

Stories have a begining, middle and an end.

It takes three to make a family.

And more than three sticks of insence makes it hard to breathe.

[Serpent]

Remember the old saying, "Why did you have to spoil it all by opening your big mouth?"

The same can apply to the mind. ;)

When you meditate, the aim is to silence the internal dialogue. Try to maintain something of that state when you observe.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by MonkeyBoy
And more than three sticks of insence makes it hard to breathe.

LOL! How true! A Buddhist temple at Chinese New Year, for example! *COUGH*!

[Repulsive Monkey]

If its Buddhist then it represents the Sangha, Dharma and Buddha
if its Taoist/martial represents Jing,Qi and Shen. Both in their own fields of study are refered to as the 3 Jewels.

[MonkeyBoy]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
If its Buddhist then it represents the Sangha, Dharma and Buddha
if its Taoist/martial represents Jing,Qi and Shen. Both in their own fields of study are refered to as the 3 Jewels.

Aren't they also called the three baskets.

[nightwing_38116]

I'm Buddhist and it represents the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha and the pat of seeking elightenment.

[harry_the_monk]

It also stands for mind, speech and body (of turning them to the dharma) within buddhism.

We don't light three incence sticks in our temple, but 3 prostrations seem to be the norm for all the ones I have visited.

Some mantras are repeated 3 times, some in numbers you couldn't equally divide by three.

The buddha spoke of the 4 noble truths and 8 fold path, you take 5 vows when you take refuge.

What I guess I am saying is try not to get caught up in numbers.
There is more than one which has significance to people.:D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by harry_the_monk
What I guess I am saying is try not to get caught up in numbers. There is more than one which has significance to people.:D

Absolutely. But the number three seems to have some significance to everybody and is often the most "powerful" number.

Of course, this doesn't exclude any other very powerful numbers. Let's not even get started on 8!

[harry_the_monk]

......or 5
:D :D :D

[Repulsive Monkey]

23 the number of the Illuminati!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Beware of the Fnords.

[Cody]

just thinking. nothing special.
Idea of numbers as keys, as portals via numerical coding, finding the code and breaking it.
It was mentioned early on that the number 3 leads to concepts of structural stability via what I will call natural geometry. how things fit together. Our only way to "explain" is via numbers -- by taking measurements, describing placement/order. The mind works largely by associations. How that ties in to when exactly man discovered the concept of numbers, even before the verbal translation into one, two, three. Never thought of that before. hm.
I wonder if primates in those historical language studies showed a preference for certain numbers (not because they were associated with more treats)?
my early morning babbling has run its course.:)

Cody

[Nexus]

Originally posted by guohuen
Or nine. In numerology everything is eventually reduced to single digits. Ie. 2x9=18, the numbers in 18 are added together to become 9. 3x9=27,=9, add infinitum. And now the biggy, 666. 6+6+6=18, =9. number nine....number nine.....number nine

Just beware the vicious 11:11 on digital clocks.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by guohuen
Or nine. In numerology everything is eventually reduced to single digits. Ie. 2x9=18, the numbers in 18 are added together to become 9. 3x9=27,=9, add infinitum. And now the biggy, 666. 6+6+6=18, =9. number nine....number nine.....number nine

You multiplied the others, then added up for 666! You're bending the facts!

It should be 6 x 6 x 6

= 216

So then it's 2 x 1 x 6

= 12

So then it's 1 + 2.....

Which equals 3!

It truly is the power number!

;) :D

[Serpent]

Ah well, worth a stab! I've never really learned about or understood the whole numerology thing. Smacks too closely of astrology in my mind and astrology has long since lost any power it might have had. There are very few people still practising real astrology.

Can you give me an example of how you would use numerology in our time? What's a good function of it today?

[Serpent]

All sounds very interpretive to me, just like astrology.

Have you seen that movie PI? That's a great movie. One for the numerologists!

[guohuen]

Naw, haven't seen it. I'll check it out.
My wife got me into astrology seventeen years ago. She's quite good at it. Before I met her I had no use for it whatsoever. She showed me the value of an accurate birth chart. I still have no use for daily astrology.

[No_Know]

People want to understand.

Religion. Superstition (for the sake of argument they are different even if the same). Numerology. Mythology. Science...

The quick explaination eases the worried person quicker.~ Tell a person almost anything. Tell them what they want to hear...pacifiers.

There is the One thing Life it is looked at in parts to be easier to look at~. Birth and Death are merely two ends of a percieveable occurance.

There is a story. Beginning and end. In-between but not well defined in every accepted case is the middle. But there is the first half and second half.

Three seems to workout to be a least (most) common denominator. It also is a tie breaker in religion and government when there is only two ways--Right and Wrong, good and bad, Good and Evil...two ends (places; compliments) of an entity, item or occurance...Yin and Yang~

Duality and the existance of the duality.

Cody, it seems that perhaps the numers gives a sense of control, rational thought, logical thinking, a method of comprehending...

Arithmatic/Mathematics, the old Human psychology:~> ~

[Cody]

Interesting comments.
I started writing, and digressed. No answer needed re the digression. It's been a rough day amongst many.

Pacifiers make me uneasy. I feel like I'm being deceived, and that is often true.

Your mention of the "middle" surprised me. Not because you mentioned it, but because the concept, so common, and yet maybe not so simple. I think I liked the thought because it wasn't of a specific number (except in a situational sense).
I don't know what it is with me lately that even the concept of the Whole shuts my brain down.

I think maybe I am overwhelmed by not understanding the Whole really and being tired of making believe that it doesn't matter, not that I'm ready to embrace a belief system. (To me, the numbers and the inter-relationships between them are like what appears above ground, while all else is hidden.)

Maybe it's because a relative of mine is about to pass. We're not close, but the whole thing is shaking me up. I'm first finding out what a hospice is for, in terms of the treatment not given. None of the alternatives seem any good.

I think back on the people I miss who are no longer around. Different people, different degrees of friendship. Sometimes I've been separated from people I've liked or loved by vicious ill will or jealousy on the part of others. That happened in my family (mother and my father's mother didn't get along, to put it mildly....), and elsewhere. I think of all the time that has been wasted.

The years mount up until the counting doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't matter whether I believe in the concept of many life times, or remember having lived before, or any of that stuff. Now is what matters. I miss my grandmother because we enjoyed each other's company, and could have shared a lot more. I miss my grandfather who died when I was 4, because I know he genuinely loved me. I'm sick of family disputes, my own and others. I'm sick of jealousy and grandstanding.

I'm sick of being kicked every which way from Sunday because I'm trying to accomplish some unusual things, and live a different life. I'm tired of having people lie and make it sound true, and having my personal integrity mocked. I'm tired of false standards, and of pain borne of tortured hearts which yield betrayal because that is the only way to survive. I'm tired of not being believed! I'm tired of giving compassion and being treated shabbily. I'm tired of being expendable because I can't be owned.
I'm learning about all the things that can't work because they eat you up and taint whatever you do, and am fortunate because my nature does not lean that way. Yet, thought must be given because in a twinkling, even a brittle twig can burn down a forest.

Somehow, the numbers of days lose significance when the calendar loses meaning. It is indeed an at once practical and synthetic way of giving signficance to the time we spend and recording it.
So much for my rant. inhale, exhale.

The notions of singularity or unity, and duality have long taken up the minds of scholars. I experimented long ago with this, while reading C.S. Lewis. I guess my final conclusion, thus far, has been a giving up on either concept. I can't sustain belief in either one. I'd rather be free, and in this sense, I am.

very best,
Cody

[Nexus]

What if you have been free all along? What if you say you don't want to embrace belief systems yet you are embracing them already without realizing it?

You believe in yourself don't you? Do you believe in your own existence? Is that not a system of believing? Perhaps your following the same beliefs that the majority of the world follows.

What would you do if you realized it was an illusion? Would you continue living it, would you doubt the realization? Is it possible for an illusion to doubt itself?

[Cody]

I think there is a difference between experiencing one's own reality of self in simply living, and a belief in a codified belief system.

I don't believe in my existence, I simply am to the extent of what I experience. I can't define my state of being and I rarely try. I get all sorts of feedback that I'm living with other like beings in a world where the stars come out at night. I do not have a need to question these things. I've seen the movie "Dark City," but that isn't my mindset. Very good movie, though.
When I say I believe in myself, I would tend to be talking about ability to do or experience something, to accomplish.

I don't understand what existence is. I think on smaller things.

It is apparent that our perceptual abilities are limited, though they can be expanded some, and I think the mental capacity is not as developed as it could be. I am less concerned with illusion than I am with deception of myriad kinds. La Vida Es Sueno, etc. is not where I'm at. (hope I spelled that correctly.)

In terms of the freedom I mention, that always needs to be considered in a relative sense. The human mind is supremely programmable. One of the things I do ask (in the background) is what is me (or anyone) that is separate from incoming (includes infant neurochemical development which is environmentally effected). It is also likely that I will select, reject and alter ideas which have come to me via books, etc. That doesn't mean I'm embracing a system.

I feel and experience something that is separate and yet connected to my body. It's not a belief for me. It's a fact. In that, is my individual freedom, which I cannot define.

I have some standards that are important to me because I have decided them as such. One might say those are the conditions I put on my existence. I follow no system nor pray to any god. The older I grow the fewer beliefs I have. I don't have any answers, and of course that bothers me at times of certain kinds of decision making. Sometimes I'm just plain not ready and hold back when I should make a move, or do the opposite.

If I were an illusion, would I continue living it. Well, in that statement is the assumption that I am living in some way. If my living is a continuous thing over many lifetimes, or just one lifetime, the terms of what my life is remains mysterious, as does the definition of living. I do not regard that as a reason to not live. I don't regard my being me as an illusion, but thinking that I Completely know myself or the conditions under which I live would be an illusion. The best I can hope for is relative knowledge, and to avoid deception.

I have read several of your posts and regard you as quite intelligent, even as we might disagree.

Cody

[swordsoul]

I know what you mean... I study (are any of us practitioners fully? of anything?) Buddhism, and it seems to me more and more like "spiritual atheism." I have an impending fear of death, and for a large part of my thoughts, Buddhism is a sort of way to accept the fact that i will die, and my flesh, my "soul," even my memories, will never be in this form again... my (even "my" is relative) being will become the earth and the universe's being... My essense, while perhaps going to another realm, will never be the same...

Yet with each new thought, each cell produced in my body, every breath I take, I am "reborn" again... I am not, nor can i ever be, the person i was when a certain thought formed, again. No one and nothing is the same from instant to instant.


I always ask things like "If one were mentally retarded, or blind, or especially if they had something like Alzheimer's" would heaven be the same or even enjoyable?" And in all seriousness, the soul has no nerve endings.... so how can Hell be that bad? I don't mean to bash anyone's beliefs there, just a question... This sort of thinking makes me think that more and more of the Bible is symbolic and not literal, certainly not inerrant.


I mention the Bible and Buddhism in the same reply because i think i'm trying to add to the "system" conversation... There are truths and there are fallacies... perhaps we will never know which are which and all of each... a belief system, like a number and language system... is a way to "execute spirituality." Myself, i take refuge in the belief (fact?) that if there is a God, and it/he/she is all knowing and powerful and most importanly, good, then a supreme being cares not for little quabbles like numbers and names and language.... even the relativity of sin if you want to get real touchy :)

I guess i'm just trying to say don't worry, it's all in control (or entropy, lol). I suppose the best way to start to deal with it is to consider your own ego and your existence...

I would like to finish with a final saying though, it is a Buddhist saying... "Our life is but an air-bubble in a great flowing river" This doesn't necessarily mean you don't matter or nothing matters... it means LIFE IS SHORT!!!!! ENJOY IT! don't waste it!!!!

love and unity
matt

[swordsoul]

to continue my rant Lol!

Things like numbers and words, while fabrications of the human mind, are not necessarily bad! Numbers are tools, nothing more!!!! To use things like number combinations actually help us to remember things... kinda like how i've read of buddhists practicing love and mindfulness everytime they hear a bell... well, its sorta like when a number comes along, it means something... just like the bell... the bell is just a sound, it comes and it's gone... but the moment can be experienced, and it has meaning while it's here...

:) that's all for now!!! LOL

matt

[Nexus]

Dear Cody,

I am in no disagreement with what you said, as what you have said is entirely about yourself. I am glad you took the questions seriously, as many are able to do so. I like the saying Lao Tzu gives "When the fool laughs at it, it is surely the Tao."

On one level it is important to deal with all things relative to us. On another level there is nothing important to deal with as things are fine the way that they are. We move through existance in accordance to what we want. If we had no wants, we would be satisfied sitting in the lotus position all day long.

We also know that intelligence is of value and confers (talent) but it does not equal wisdom or spiritual maturity. Such as you find most obviously in social settings such as universities where there are many intelligent folks who still peddle their lives through the mud (greed, envy, lust, hate) to get from one place to the next.

It is actually ok to adopt ideas and understandings from books, wise people, and anywhere for that matter as long as we understand them to be true for ourselves. It would be silly to read something and take it as a fact or as a means to live by without first understanding it for ourselves. If we do that, we would become slaves to others ideas rather than rulers of our own.

An example would be that I could teach a class on Oriental Medicine, discussing things such as Qi, Jing, Shen and all the while realize that these are just ideas, concepts and theories and not absolute truths. Some in my classes may believe they are absolute truths, and may live their lives in accordance with cultivating qi and maximizing their spiritual practices. They also may come to realize that they are following an illusion much as I am teaching one, and still continue to practice it because it may have benefit in a relative way.

Kind Regards

[MonkeyBoy]

Originally posted by Nexus
Dear Cody,

I like the saying Lao Tzu gives "When the fool laughs at it, it is surely the Tao."



Kind Regards

I always preferred the follow up: "Do not despair, if there was no laughter heard, then there would be no way to know there was truth."

[Cody]

Snoopy wins! and he can't even count. (Please, no one submit evidence that Snoopy does math. I'd like today to be simple.)

thanks for the lightheartedness,
Cody

[swordsoul]

Gosh you guys i just read my post and realized how preachy it sounded! My second post had something slightly to do with the 3 incense thing... lol!!! I'm sorry if i sounded way preachy! i guess it was just on my mind!

love and unity
matt
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