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mysteri
08-08-2001, 10:45 AM
i know that everyone practices different flower fist forms, some even within the same style. but i believe still that there are common strategies and focuses among all of the different stlye's flower fist form. what does your stlye focus on? what does you flower fist focus on?

In a fight you should never stick to principles; they should stick to you!

Ego_Extrodinaire
08-08-2001, 06:02 PM
Mysteri,

The most popular by far is the plum flower fist. It is based on the movements of a plum flower.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

ZhouJiaQuan
08-08-2001, 07:23 PM
You know i've been wondering the same thing for a long time....

oh yea(not trying to distract thread) ego what ever happend to your challenge with hung gar? i havent heard anything about that in a while??? maybe i missed it...

Peace,
Walter(taking deep cat and bowing to mysteri)

"Everyone seems so clever and self-assured.
I alone appear unlearned and original,
insistent upon a different direction than other people pursue." -Lao Tzu

sifuchuck
08-08-2001, 09:00 PM
Hmmmm! Hey, Joisey! How exactly does a plum flower move?
:confused:

mysteri
08-08-2001, 10:55 PM
thanx ego, i was referring to the plum flower fist. to my knowledge, the plum flower fist originates in bok shaolin. the style itself (mei hua) is a long fist style that focuses on explosive long arm movements originating from the waiste, as is common with most long fist styles. plum flower also seems to wrap and engulf and opponents within its long arm techniques which seems to reel them in for close range techniques. this is pretty much the gist of my current knowledge. if i can think of anything else, i'll be sure to post. i'm curious how CLF and hung gar might focus their flower fist as opposed to bak sil lum? any feedback would be well-appreciated.

zhoujia- (bowing in the lowest cat he can get, which is nowhere NEAR yours walter!<show-ff> ;) )

In a fight you should never stick to principles; they should stick to you!

Waidan
08-08-2001, 11:14 PM
We had "plumb flower patterns" in San Soo, but I'd have to see the PF forms of other systems to determine if there's any deep relationship. There are so many misnomers in San Soo that I rarely take any seeming similarities to other styles for granted.

In SanSoo the "plumb flower" refers to the stepping pattern, and the arc-direction of the striking. If the movements of the practitioner were traced, they would form a geometric "flower" pattern, which becomes a piece of a larger pattern when linked with several similar forms (eventually creating a 365 [or there-bouts] movement "annual" form).

Kung Lek
08-08-2001, 11:25 PM
The term "Plum Flower" like in Plum Flower boxing refers mainly to the directions moved in as was stated above.

In Bak Sil Lum, Moi Fa or Form #7 moves in the four cardinal directions (north,east, south, west).
In other systems, there are five directions taken.
The petals of a plum flower can be 4 or 5 and yada yada yada. It's a directional thing.

And chuck, depending on the wind, a plum flower will move in a variety of ways :D at least until it becomes a plum and then it falls from the tree or gets plucked and eaten.

peace

Kung Lek

MIKSANSOO
08-09-2001, 02:17 AM
waidan:

plum flower is not a common thing that is taught in san soo. it was taught by jimmy to some but not all. from my understanding from the 1st US generation (the only ones who really know about it). that at the el monte school jimmy had this shag carpet and once you were done with the form there was a plum flower in the carpet. and I would like to state the san soo is not choy li fut. have a nice day :)

"you can take my life, but not my confidence"
Jimmy H. Woo

Waidan
08-09-2001, 02:40 AM
"I would like to state the san soo is not choy li fut."

A lot of people make that mistake. Fortunately, I'm not one of them :)

"plum flower is not a common thing that is taught in san soo."

That may be. I only ever learned under one instructor, but it's quite possible other teachers have a different cirriculum. I've met students from other schools, and in some cases our arts were quite different.

mysteri
08-09-2001, 11:34 PM
we have two different plum flower fist forms that i know of @ my school. i will look for the pattern. btw- i thought that sansoo was choy li ho fut hunng? i thought it was a combat intensive style of choy lit fut? yes, please enlighten me. thank you.

In a fight you should never stick to principles; they should stick to you!

Waidan
08-10-2001, 01:58 AM
"San Soo", according to most accounts, is/was known in China as Tsoi Li Ho Hung Fut. I've also seen it commonly refered to as Tsoi Li Ho Fut, and in one case as "village style" CLF.

Now it would make sense to me, just looking at the seeming similarity of the family names, that the two arts are closely related...but most long-time CLF players will deny this admanately. I don't have much experience with CLF, so I'm not going to argue with guys who've been doing it for 20 years.

I've seen alternate explanations for the TLHHF names, but they are a bit complicated, and none of them made a whole lot of sense. And then there's the alleged ties with Ed Parker, and the questionable validity of the manuals (where they are now, I have no idea...if someone were allowed to translate a single page it'd make a lot of folks really happy). Basically, it's kind of a mess.

People will always have their opinions about the origins of San Soo, and people will continue to support their various versions of the art's history. And that's cool. But I've corresponded with a dozen "old-timers" and "authorities"(including James King, Bernice Woo, and most any Master with a website)and gotten a dozen different stories. You know what? If San Soo started with Jimmy and a studio in El Monte, that'd be okay with me.

MIKSANSOO
08-10-2001, 02:07 AM
jimmy's passing left things in state of array. he passed when i was a white belt. but san soo is a family art. chin was jimmy's actual last name. lineage is what distinguishes a certain art. choy li fut is named after the founders of it. and san soo has its from the quan yin monestary then to his family. the books are in existance but the whereabouts are unknown. old chinese hard to translate.

"you can take my life, but not my confidence"
Jimmy H. Woo

Waidan
08-10-2001, 02:21 AM
Yeah, I imagine they're still in existence, but who actually has them is a pretty good question. I understand a couple of Jimmy's relatives claim to have them, but no one will publicly produce the books. I also heard rumor that that SCARS fellow got a hold of them (through theft), but I've never seen that substantiated.

I was a W/B when Jimmy died also, so I'm a bit removed from most of the bickering and in-fighting that ensued at that time.

MIKSANSOO
08-10-2001, 02:25 AM
you should speak with ron gatewood in regards to the books. by the way clf looks different than san soo. all chinese arts have similarities. as far as i'm told jimmy said the two are distant cousins at best. but if you think of it all cma are related somehow. :)

"you can take my life, but not my confidence"
Jimmy H. Woo

MIKSANSOO
08-10-2001, 02:26 AM
sorry for getting off topic guys :(

"you can take my life, but not my confidence"
Jimmy H. Woo

Waidan
08-10-2001, 02:29 AM
Yea, I know they look different...I wouldn't argue otherwise. I don't think I've ever talked with Ron, but I've read a lot of his stuff on SanSooSifu's forum (and East Hills, I think).

I didn't mean to participate in the hijacking of this thread...does anyone else have some input on the Plumb Flower Forms? :)

phoenix-eye
08-10-2001, 04:10 AM
Whats happening to this forum?

I actually learned something from this topic!!

Thanks guys. I'm about to learn Lau Gar's Far Kuen form. "Flower fist"

I always wondered why it was called Flower fist and now I think i know.

i'm going to watch the directions of movement now and see if it ties up with kung Lek's info.

I live and learn again...

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

Ego_Extrodinaire
08-10-2001, 07:19 AM
Waiden,

Plum flower fist is part of the Shaolin style. This is not to be confused with Plum Flower Mantis which pertains to the type of mantis that commonly lives & looks like plum flowers.

It is believed that monks in their drunken state mistake plum flow mantis with the actual plum flowers. As a result they have inadvertently modelled their movements after the mantis rather than the plum flower.

Needless to say not all the monks were that fortunate, as there are more plum flowers on a particuarly plum flower tree then there are plum flower mantis ( that look like plum flowers). These monks have spent their live times coaxing their plum flowers to "move" with little success. Many of them took to heavy drinking which led to the development of drunken fist and all its varieties (but that's another story).

Back to plum flowers... There is yet another theory that due to the poor soil nutrients in the Tien Shan mountants, certain Plum Flower trees have evolved a carniverous capability - much like the venus fly traps, sun dews and pitcher plants.

These bushes have known to ambush (no pun intended) mountant lions and unsuspecting monks. Hence the moves like the angry plum flower subdues the Tiger coming down the mountant.

Perhaps it's true that these bushes moved in 4 directions and was the inspiration of the plum flower fist.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

WongFeHung
08-10-2001, 07:19 AM
Hung-Ga has a moi-fa/sup fu kuen Plum Flower/Cross Tiger Fist (two names-one form) The plum flower , besides referring to the multi-directional aspect of the stepping is a very strong symbol in China-particularly with systems which sprang forth from the attempted overthrow of the ching Dynasty, born in Fukien Siu-Lum. The Plum Flower blossoms out of the deadness of winter and is the first sign of life, and spring, therefore- Hope. Hope of a new China, Hope for the Future, rebirth. Wing Chun sometimes translated as hope for the future,beautiful springtime, forever springtime, etc has as its symbol the Plum Flower. Hung-Ga, which was very instrumental in the revolution also has a Plum Flower form as previously mentioned. There are many names of forms, techniques, hand gestures, etc which are direct reference to the overthrow of the Chings.

mysteri
08-10-2001, 09:44 AM
i still wonder if any CLF stylist or northern stylists could share thier insight of moi fa kuen. i know that the forms vary from stlye to style, so any similar techniqes would be interesting to find. i often hear of it being popular in the south, but it seems to stem from northern shaolin. is there a difference? or am i misinformed? i would not insist that i am right by any means, that is why i rely on you guys to help fill me in. thank you for your time and insight.

In a fight you should never stick to principles; they should stick to you!