Turning

[jesper]

For the last few weeks I have been trying to do my turning on the heel of my feets, instead of the whole sole like im used to. But I just cant seem to get it right, and it really bugs me.

So I think I will throw myself at your mercy.
How are you doing it exactly, are you moving both feet at the same time, or one at a time?
how do distribute your weight during turning?

[LMKwc]

We move one foot at a time, but when done quickly, may appear to be both at the same time.

As for weight distribution, we use the 0/100 approach, so when turned at say 45 degrees from YJKYM, weight distribution is around 30/70 or so, and as the turn approaches 90 degrees, we approach 0/100. Hope this is of some help :o)

[jesper]

I figured it would be something like that.
We use the same distribution as you, and also move one foot at a time.

What bothers me is that I seem to loose my balance when I try to go at normal speed or when Im put on the slightest pressure. But since so many people uses it, I figured it must be me :).

Ah well I have managed to master my turning on the sole (almost) and are pretty good using the ball of my feet, so I will get there in time.... I hope :)

[dbulmer]

Jesper,
try moving your lead foot into position first and then move your weight onto the back leg - (with the whole foot). It takes a bit of practice but you might find it easier.

[kj]

From your description, it sounds as if you have been reasonably successful to date in learning to utilize your entire foot during turns. What is your motiviation to retrain yourself to turn on the heel instead?

What advantages and disadvantages do you see for whole foot versus heel turning respectively?

Also, would you mind clarifying whether you mean ball of the heel or near the heel?

Just curious to understand your situation better.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[LMKwc]

After waking up this morning and doing a little practice, weight distribution at 45 degrees is more like 10/90.

[EnterTheWhip]

If you are unable to control how your feet are moving, regardless of where the weight is being placed - as we should train to have the ability to move our feet in the various ways, with the various pressures - it is suggestive of an inadequacy in another part of your body.

[jesper]

Hello Kj

Well in my lineage we turn on the whole foot, but unfortunately I have learned the hard way that its not always practically, namely when I was sparring on grass wearing new sneakers. My feets kinda stuck to the ground :(.
Thats why I learned to use the ball (part near the toes) to turn, in case I got into similar situations for real.
Since then I have discovered that sometimes you are best of turning on your whole foot, sometimes on your ball, so now I study both ways intensly.

Anyway a couple of weeks back, I talked to a friend of mine who had broken his foot, and he was only able to support his leg on the heel. So I thought that hey, I have been in that situation too, and it could happen again, so why not be prepared.
So if I cant do it properly now, what will happen if I get into an unfortunate situation in the future.


Besides its good to sometimes take what you think is correct and redo it in another fashion. You will get surprised at some of the discoveries you do.

Now to answer your question about advantage vs disadvantage, and remember its all subjective :)

Flat foot gives me lots of stability when I turn + Im able to reverse my turning much more swiftly. Unfortunately I have discovered it doesnt work on all surface/shoe combos.

Ball of foot gives me some stability, my turning is a bit looser (for lack of better word) and it works on some surface/shoe combo where flat foot doesnt. Unfortunately for me it doesnt work on all surface/shoe combos. Moreover I loose some stability in my turning and I also sense a small loss of control over my opponent.

Heel.... Still figuring that one out :)

[kj]

Thanks for your good explanation. Kudos for practical experimentation, and thoughtfully working through the variables.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Wei Sui]

I use the heel for shifting while deploying my shifted elbow up. IMHO I feel more stable and able to affect/cancel the force of the inbound strike...hmmm... example wise:

Kind of like a regular swinging door (using balls if heel) - if a sturdy heavy door swings at you it will possess good force ( for elbow up effect/cancellation ). If it is a spinning door (using middle of the feet) IMO it is easier to stop or get through...I find that I don't get the cancellation/effect with using the middle.

In the end it depends on what your turning/shifting' purpose is for.

Regards

[yuanfen]

Whatever one is comfortable with is ok by me. In application all kinds of changes take place. But for development purposes in chum kiu-mine is apparently against the grain of the posts thus far. I do NOT turn one foot at a time, I do not bounce. use the whole foot for control, but the heel for the pivoting point without leaning back on my heel. Same for most brothers, sisters and students. No debate...just comparing. Thanks for sharing what you do.

[S.Teebas]

Turn your body and your feet will follow...they are connected.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by yuanfen
But for development purposes in chum kiu-mine is apparently against the grain of the posts thus far. I do NOT turn one foot at a time, I do not bounce. use the whole foot for control, but the heel for the pivoting point without leaning back on my heel. Same for most brothers, sisters and students.
Hi Yuanfen,

Yours sounds like what I imagine I'm doing in chum kiu. To turn 180 degrees, I turn my unweighted (front) leg's knee in first and my feet do a sort of imitation of a windshield wiper as my weight shifts to my back (formerly front) leg. I think it's important to turn all at once, not one foot at a time.

Nice subject for a thread.

[{i^(]

before i joined a different school. in both cases, the weighting is more or less 0/100, so i think thats an important concern vis. turning and how fast smooth & stable its done. ive no experience with 50/50 so its no criticism, here.

the heel turn is a little less stable, for me, but i hadn't done it extremely long or anything. it can (not guaranteed) provide a little more weight behind, say, a punch thats following through, but also provides that much more body to be used by an opponent. little things can make a difference.

we picked the foot up to various degrees, thus emphasizing the heel in a turn. i didn't question it at the time.

[EnterTheWhip]

The feet don't necessarily have to move in the same way.

[fa_jing]

Hey I just want to point out that if the surface is preventing your shift, you can pick up the feet to turn, one foot at a time.

[yuanfen]

Sure that is the difference between development and application in specific circumstances.

[yuanfen]

also when you are wearing thick ugly shoes.

[Mr. Bao]

J:

Try a flat shoes like the ones used in bowling which you can get in a sport store. They are really great for shifting in the horse. Or you can try puma which my brand of choice for wing chun gear. The old kunfg fu slippers are great too but not enough protection and support for me.

Once you can shift better without tention you can wear anything. But beginners who wear running shoes are going find shifting on the horse a bit difficult. Wearing the proper gear will help you focus on the right shifting technique than fighting the fiction on the ground.

Good luck and train harder.

Bao

[Matrix]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Turn your body and your feet will follow...they are connected. Agreed...What are we trying to shift here, our feet?
I think not. What is the purpose of the shift? To move your feet? Again, I think not.

Maybe I've got it all wrong here, but this sounds like a case of the cart pulling the horse ;)

Matrix

[AndrewS]

Matrix-

one of the more *interesting* mechanisms of injury to ankle or knee is to fail to move the foot while the body is moving.

Out in the real world the variables of ground and footwork require some modifications of beslippered idealism. Cowboy boots, eighteen hole Docs, creepers (especially with some extra lift in the sole), basketball shoes all do have different dynamics. Personally, I only wear shoes with a fairly level sole (not much heel lift), and nothing with more than 2" of sole (which already feels funky)- no matter how much cool metal is on them.

And if you've ever tried to practice either with someone wearing high heels or in them yourself, the limitations are obvious (and the comedy boundless).

Later,

Andrew

[BeiKongHui]

If you have good body unity your feet shouldn't stay while the body moves.

[Atleastimnotyou]

Personally, i think turning on your heels is a horrible idea. If you are on your heels, then you aren't rooted.

[yuanfen]

atleastiamnot you

[TjD]

i was wondering how much you tried turning on the center of your foot on grass?

i practice chum kiu and biu jee outside all summer long and i dont have any trouble turning - the grass doesnt like me much for it, but it works just fine :)

those horribly humid days are the ones i really like to work on my turning at class, because the linoleum sticks to your sneakers like glue - its a great way to train your turn


personnaly i think schools that teach turning on the heel or shifting on the ball teach different lower body mechanics (from the waist down) for their wing chun, to get them to work most efficiently

i'd try working on training your shift in less favorable conditions as opposed to using a different way than your teacher/lineage teaches

[Wei Sui]

Care to elaborate why you wouldn't be "rooted" on your heels? Thanks

[Atleastimnotyou]

Have someone push towards your center when you are on your heels. You cant absorb anything and you will stumble backwards. I thought it was obvious. Sure you might be able to fight that with muscle, but then that is not wing chun. Just like if you were on the ball of your foot, your energy would be forward and you would be suseptable for someone "sucking you in" or pulling you forward if you will. there is a reason wing chun trains the way it does.

[yuanfen]

Have someone push towards your center when you are on your heels. You cant absorb anything and you will stumble backwards. I thought it was obvious.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Whoa! Not so obvious. Again the devil is in the details. Turning on the heels and standing only on the heels are two very different things. Our folks are as rooted as any when we want or need to be.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Matrix
What are we trying to shift here, our feet? I think not. Sometimes the feet.

[Atleastimnotyou]

The fact of the matter is, if you practice Wing Chun then you should be rooted at all times. there is just no reason not to be. Being rooted is where the "power" comes from. When you turn/stand on your heels, i suppose you may be able to muster some form of a root, but it is not much. I don't believe in absolutes, but in this case, i am willing to bet i can uproot anyone standing or turning on their heels. the only way someone would be able to resist being uprooted when they are on their heels is by using force/muscle. If they do that, then i will just change the force and uproot them just the same. there is a reason wing chun trains the way it does.

[Atleastimnotyou]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matrix
[B] Agreed...What are we trying to shift here, our feet?
I think not. What is the purpose of the shift? To move your feet? Again, I think not.

Matrix,
The purpose of the shift is to get your opponent off of your center while remaining on his.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AndrewS
one of the more *interesting* mechanisms of injury to ankle or knee is to fail to move the foot while the body is moving. I am not saying that foot should not move, but rather that the point of shifting is not to primarily to move the feet. The feet should only move as much as necessary to accomplish the required shift.



Out in the real world the variables of ground and footwork require some modifications of beslippered idealism.......... No doubt. However to suggest that we wear specific footwear so that our feet can slide better may no be practical. I don't want to wear bowling shoes for the rest of my life. ;)


And if you've ever tried to practice either with someone wearing high heels or in them yourself, the limitations are obvious (and the comedy boundless). I'll have to take your word for that. :)

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Sometimes the feet. Sometimes. Not most of the time. I can't get anything by you, can I ? :cool:

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
Have someone push towards your center when you are on your heels. You cant absorb anything and you will stumble backwards. I thought it was obvious. As in all things, the devil is the details. You seem to be confusing shifting on the heels, with having all of your weight back on the heels. If you follow that logic, then shifting on the balls of your feet would be bad since I could pull you and you would stumble forward (I am just reversing your description).

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
The fact of the matter is, if you practice Wing Chun then you should be rooted at all times. there is just no reason not to be. Being rooted is where the "power" comes from.
You must have a hard time moving. Go back and read John W's post from earlier in the thread.


i am willing to bet i can uproot anyone standing or turning on their heels. How much?????


The purpose of the shift is to get your opponent off of your center while remaining on his.If that is your purpose then why are you so focused on turning your feet, which you say are so firmly rooted. Is your opponent striking at your feet?

Matrix

[Atleastimnotyou]

Matrix,
"Hard time moving."? Of course not. Just because im rooted does not mean i am stuck to the ground. All it means is that i have a connection with the ground. I am free to move if need be.
I don't believe i have said anything to insinuate that i was focused on my feet so much.

[gnugear]

------------------------------------------------------------------------
i am willing to bet i can uproot anyone standing or turning on their heels.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
How much?????


I'll take that bet as well. If you're on you're heels then you can't be as connected to the ground. It's pure physics.

... and good root does not equate to a lack of mobility.

I have yet to see a well rooted person using their whole foot, get uprooted by someone that roots or turns from the heel.

[yuanfen]

gnugear and iamnot you- you folks are ot paying attention to the details... note matrix's post as followas;

You seem to be confusing shifting on the heels, with having all of your weight back on the heels. If you follow that logic, then shifting on the balls of your feet would be bad since I could pull you and you would stumble forward (I am just reversing your description).

[Atleastimnotyou]

shifting on your heels is bad. shifting on the balls of you feet is bad.

[yuanfen]

Well again, thank heavens atleastiamnotyou.

[Wei Sui]

it's waaay too simple to associate turning on heels with leaning completly back...and turning on the balls with leaning forward.

[Atleastimnotyou]

I realize that if you are on your heels or the balls of your feet you aren't nessesarilly leaning back or forward, but the only way you can have anything that resembles a root is by using muscle. But when you do that, your done.

[yuanfen]

There are diverse ways to root. Too bad that your dogmatism
prevents seeing it.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
shifting on your heels is bad. shifting on the balls of you feet is bad. The mind of a fool is like the pupil of the eye, the more light you shine upon it, the more it contracts.

Matrix

[old jong]

" and my other job is setting people straight about true wing chun, one post at a time. "

It runs in the family?....:confused:

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
"Hard time moving."? Of course not. Just because im rooted does not mean i am stuck to the ground.You are the one who posted earlier that you lost your root when moving. You posted the following in the thread on "Turning" .........

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
if you move your feet when you don't need to, then you have lost your connection to the ground.Don't you remember. :rolleyes:

Matrix

[Atleastimnotyou]

There is not a diverse way to root. The only way is through stance training. Correct stance training.
Matrix, you quoted me but im suprised that you didn't actually read what i wrote. I wrote: "if you move your feet WHEN YOU DON'T NEED TO, then you have lost your connection to the ground." Once a wing chun person steps into an opponent, his feet will move very little. The only time it will move is when you shift or when you need to step in again cuz your opponent moved away. you have lost your root if you move your feet just for the hell of it.
Before i started to take wing chun, i looked around. so before learning the way i do i saw how others did it. and this just makes more sense. So i was just curious, how many of you looked around? and more specifically, how many of you have seen this lineage, and i don't mean heard about it from there sifu?

Corey

[old jong]

Quote..."Before i started to take wing chun, i looked around. so before learning the way i do i saw how others did it. and this just makes more sense."....
So,even before starting in Wing Chun you already knew how to separate good Wing Chun from bad Wing Chun?...:confused:Are you Red5Angel under a new name or are you his twin brother separated at birth?... ;)

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
There is not a diverse way to root. The only way is through stance training. Correct stance training.
Hi Corey,
I agree that our lineage's way to good root is through stance training. Ken Chung says the horse is a gift the student gives himself. The teacher can guide in its development, but if the student doesn't develop his/her horse, the teacher cannot teach that student anything.


Once a wing chun person steps into an opponent, his feet will move very little. The only time it will move is when you shift or when you need to step in again cuz your opponent moved away. you have lost your root if you move your feet just for the hell of it.
Rings true to me. It's what I said on the footwork thread. Perhaps you can define what you mean by shift so we can share your understanding of the term. Preferably, do you have a Cantonese term for it?


Before i started to take wing chun, i looked around. so before learning the way i do i saw how others did it. and this just makes more sense. So i was just curious, how many of you looked around? and more specifically, how many of you have seen this lineage, and i don't mean heard about it from there sifu?
Before calling on others to answer these questions, shouldn't you give us the criteria on which you based your judgement? Or, did you mean you based it on efficient footwork? Too many unlinked pronouns to follow, if you see what I mean. :)

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Cory's language is gentler but his dogmatism is beginning to match red5angel's. There must be several full dogma bottles
available for use in a couple of parts of Ohio these days.

[Martial Joe]

Dont turn on your heals.You can be pushed/knocked over alot easier.

[yuanfen]

You guys crack me up. Been turning on my heels since 1976.
So have my sihings. We are not easy to be taken down.
Remember turning on the heels does NOT mean leaning forward or backward. If you cant do it- do it your way. Its OK.

[TjD]

i think if your doing a 50/50 weighting (which from what i've seen is usually a wider stance than the 0/100) turning on your heels might work just fine for you; but 50/50 weighting has different lower body mechanics from what i've seen

if your sifu is teaching you 0/100; i'd stick with what hes taught you and just work on shifting using the whole foot - you can do it in grass or wherever you can turn with just the heel or the ball, you just have to put a little more into it

going with the heel or the ball of your foot if your doing 0/100 weighting can definately screw up the body mechanics and make you lose your balance

i dont do 50/50 so i cant speak for that; the heel or the ball of the foot may work just fine for them

[yuanfen]

Appropriate post TJD. One should do what your sifu suggests
if you have confidence in his knowledge. I average 50-50 and
my stance turn works fine for me- turn ona dime without loss of balance or grounding. Ohio folks may want to see Buddy Wu in cleveland turn-much the same.

[burnsypoo]

balls, heels, whole foot, bubbling sping, shifting with feet, putting foot behind mass, shift with knees, hips, shoulders, stepping with root, hitting without root, generating power with any and all joints..

yaya, I think one should be able to do it all. Wing Chun training should set you free... let you do what you want to do. I think the important thing to always remember though, that it's important to take a step back from the glorious minutia of the system from time to time and remember that it's just about delivering intent. Keeping that idea alone in mind can keep you on course.

-BP-

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
I wrote: "if you move your feet WHEN YOU DON'T NEED TO, then you have lost your connection to the ground."
Why would anyone move WHEN THEY DON'T NEED TO?
You are grasping at straws.

Matrix

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by John Weiland

Perhaps you can define what you mean by shift so we can share your understanding of the term. Preferably, do you have a Cantonese term for it?

[B]Before calling on others to answer these questions, shouldn't you give us the criteria on which you based your judgement?
Regards,


Shifting is when you bong sau to get your opponent off your center while you remain on his. You practice this in the first subset of Chum Kil. I don't know the Cantonese term for it because we never bothered to learn them.
I didn't really have any criteria. I didn't even know what wing chun was. I just listened to people explain wing chun and the applications of things. The school i ended up in just made more sense with the way they did things. Plus they treated wing chun as something that should be shared with anyone that wanted to learn.

yuanfen: "Cory's language is gentler but his dogmatism is beginning to match red5angel's."

First i would just like to say that Jason is from Minn and he is in a school that just switched to our lineage a few months back. So, although he is now in our lineage, I personally consider what he says to be the views of an "outsider" who is just expressing his opinions of what he saw. Secondly, I realize that what is say sounds like dogma. I know things in this world aren't clear cut black and white, but i do think wing chun is. I have spent some time looking at a lot of types of wing chun, and i do beleive that you are either doing wing chun or your not doing wing chun.

yuanfen: "You guys crack me up. Been turning on my heels since 1976. So have my sihings. We are not easy to be taken down."

Turning on your heels doesn't mean you're easy to be taken down. I agree. But it does mean that you aren't connected with the ground. Just look at Master Chen who does Tai Chi. He has great connection and he is never on his heels.

Yuanfen: "Ohio folks may want to see Buddy Wu in cleveland turn-much the same."

I have seen his folks at a tournament in Cleveland earlier in the year. They are decent, but i am not impressed.

burnsypoo: "yaya, I think one should be able to do it all. Wing Chun training should set you free... let you do what you want to do."

I understand what you are saying, but why would you do your own thing when wing chun works so well?

[Atleastimnotyou]

Matrix,
People move there feet alot because they think it is the right thing to do. When in fact, it is not the appropriate thing. They just cant tell the difference, even if they think they can.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
You guys crack me up. Been turning on my heels since 1976.
So have my sihings. We are not easy to be taken down.
Remember turning on the heels does NOT mean leaning forward or backward. If you cant do it- do it your way. Its OK. Oh Yuanfen, You are so naive......these young pups have it all figured out. We who are a little longer in the tooth have been wasting our time. What has been handed down over generations means nothing in the age of microwaves and Playstations. Thank goodness these boys have come along to show us the error of our ways. ;)

Cheers,
Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by burnsypoo
yaya, I think one should be able to do it all. Wing Chun training should set you free... let you do what you want to do. BP,
The truth will set you free.
Matrix

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by Matrix
Oh Yuanfen, You are so naive......these young pups have it all figured out. We who are a little longer in the tooth have been wasting our time. What has been handed down over generations means nothing in the age of microwaves and Playstations. Thank goodness these boys have come along to show us the error of our ways. ;)

Cheers,
Matrix


Well, for example, Bigotry has been something past down through generations and practiced for ones whole life, but that doesn't make it "the way to do things."
Besides, a lot of Yip Man's students dont do the same wing chun he did. The most famous examples are his children, they don't do wing chun like Yip Man did at all.

[Matrix]

Corey,
Do you need a hand digging that big old hole you're working on?
:p
Matrix

[Atleastimnotyou]

I have a neat exercise for all of us to try.

Get down in your stance, now lean toward your toes and see how it feels to you. now, lean onto your heels and see how that feels to you. now, center all your weight on your foot and see how that feels to you.

I have been train to disregard anything and everything that is illogical to me. Now whether or not you have a root when you are on your heels is not the point. The point is you have a stronger connection with the ground when it is centered.

please tell me why you would put your weight anywhere else, im curious.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
Get down in your stance, now lean toward your toes and see how it feels to you. now, lean onto your heels and see how that feels to you. now, center all your weight on your foot and see how that feels to you.Why are you leaning????


I have been train to disregard anything and everything that is illogical to me. And because it is illogical to you, or maybe you simply do not understand, then it cannot be correct. Quite an interesting perspective you have there. Maybe, and just maybe, rather than simply disregard it you acknowledge it for what it is. A different point of view. You seem intent on having "the" right answer. You automatically discard all that you have judged as "illogical". How nice it must be for you to have the world neatly sorted into two piles - what you believe, and the rest of that illogical stuff out there.

At Least I'm Not You.

Matrix

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
shifting on your heels is bad. shifting on the balls of you feet is bad. Neither one is bad. Wing Chun is not that limited.

[Atleastimnotyou]

I am leaning??? i am trying to get everyone to feel all the weight on the center of there feet vs. on the heels and toes. did you even try it?

Something that is illogical to me will be illogical to everyone. Logic is scientific. "the earth is flat" is illogical. Or perhaps by what you are saying, it is "a different point of view."

I don't always have the right answer, but when determing what is right or wrong in wing chun, I see if it follows the 5 principles. If it does not than it can't be wing chun. I don't have the world sorted into two piles. I just have wing chun sorted into two piles: WING CHUN and NOT WING CHUN

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Neither one is bad. Wing Chun is not that limited.

ETW,
Get in your stance and turn with your whole foot, then try it on your heels or toes. Doesn't turning on your whole foot fell better? Ok, i will concede that neither one is "bad," but having your weight on the center of your foot IS better. So why do something that is "so so" when you can do it the best way?

[EnterTheWhip]

I've tried it all. Everthing has it's time and place. You cannot use the same stance for all focal points of the foot. Your body changes accordingly. It depends on what you need to accomplish at the time.

Trainer harder, longer, and with an open mind, and before long you'll be rid of your 2 dimensional thinking.

[Atleastimnotyou]

etw,

It is not two dementional thinking.
It is: what is logical vs. what is not.
It is: Wing Chun vs. not Wing Chun

[TjD]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou



Well, for example, Bigotry has been something past down through generations and practiced for ones whole life, but that doesn't make it "the way to do things."
Besides, a lot of Yip Man's students dont do the same wing chun he did. The most famous examples are his children, they don't do wing chun like Yip Man did at all.


how are ip ching and ip chun's wing chun different than yip mans?

who does do wing chun the most like yip man?

making empty comments like that gets everyone nowhere, and some of us further down the wing chun mountain

[Atleastimnotyou]

Many people accept that Ip ching and Ip chun are good just because of the fact that they are his children. But wing chun is NOT genetic.

logic equation:

Premise: If you do Wing Chun, you follow 5 guidelines.
Premise: Yip man followed the 5 guidelines of wing chun.
Premise: Ip ching and Ip chun do not.
Conclusion: Ip ching and Ip chun do not do the same wing chun

VALID

Now, you may ask: "what are these 5 guidelines?"
Well, they are:

KIM SUT -- Hips and knees pressing together. The knees not "pinching" in with stiffness, but rather "pressing" firmly, and softly inward and downward. All wing chun teachers will mention "kim sut" in the beginning, but if they don't push it, the practitioner will soon forget. It is too much effort for a lot of people, and it is painful. If they (teacher and student) are not committed, it is the first thing they will abandon. If you push it, it is extra hard work, but "kim sut" cannot be avoided if one is to become proficient. In Chung's class, when the student thinks that he is really sinking into the floor and really pressing the knees and hips together, Chung will walk by and quietly tell him to "sink" and "press" just a little bit more.
LOK MA -- Lower the stance downward, sinking through the knees. Lok ma is where the "rootedness" is developed. It trains the legs to effectively support he body, and helps the practitioner to, later on, develop the advancing step of wing chun.
TING YU-- Back straight, pelvis rolled under slightly so that each vertebrae is stacked one on top of the other. The spine is completely aligned. The upper body should not be leaning back nor is the head tilted forward. Maintaining the head in the right position and proper execution of ting yu is a prerequisite for dung tao.
DUNG TAO -- Head up, neck relaxing into the shoulders; shoulders drifting downward by gravity with no tension. The head should be held as if being pulled upward gently by a string to help draw the spine straight.
MAI JIANG -- Pressing the elbows inward and forward. Without using force, the elbows should maintain a fist's distance from the torso. The energy projects from the elbow forward, through a relaxed forearm and hand.

[Atleastimnotyou]

Source:

www.wing-chun.nu >introduction > the soft force of wing chun

[S.Teebas]

What do you think of Carl D?

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
What do you think of Carl D?

Could you be more specific? that question is too general.
His ability? how he teaches? him as a person?

Please be specific.

Thanks
Corey

[S.Teebas]

In relation to other schools...you said you've been to a few schools.

*His ability
*how he teaches...

[TjD]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
Many people accept that Ip ching and Ip chun are good just because of the fact that they are his children. But wing chun is NOT genetic.

logic equation:

Premise: If you do Wing Chun, you follow 5 guidelines.
Premise: Yip man followed the 5 guidelines of wing chun.
Premise: Ip ching and Ip chun do not.
Conclusion: Ip ching and Ip chun do not do the same wing chun

VALID

Now, you may ask: "what are these 5 guidelines?"
Well, they are:

KIM SUT -- Hips and knees pressing together. The knees not "pinching" in with stiffness, but rather "pressing" firmly, and softly inward and downward. All wing chun teachers will mention "kim sut" in the beginning, but if they don't push it, the practitioner will soon forget. It is too much effort for a lot of people, and it is painful. If they (teacher and student) are not committed, it is the first thing they will abandon. If you push it, it is extra hard work, but "kim sut" cannot be avoided if one is to become proficient. In Chung's class, when the student thinks that he is really sinking into the floor and really pressing the knees and hips together, Chung will walk by and quietly tell him to "sink" and "press" just a little bit more.
LOK MA -- Lower the stance downward, sinking through the knees. Lok ma is where the "rootedness" is developed. It trains the legs to effectively support he body, and helps the practitioner to, later on, develop the advancing step of wing chun.
TING YU-- Back straight, pelvis rolled under slightly so that each vertebrae is stacked one on top of the other. The spine is completely aligned. The upper body should not be leaning back nor is the head tilted forward. Maintaining the head in the right position and proper execution of ting yu is a prerequisite for dung tao.
DUNG TAO -- Head up, neck relaxing into the shoulders; shoulders drifting downward by gravity with no tension. The head should be held as if being pulled upward gently by a string to help draw the spine straight.
MAI JIANG -- Pressing the elbows inward and forward. Without using force, the elbows should maintain a fist's distance from the torso. The energy projects from the elbow forward, through a relaxed forearm and hand.

well, my sifu has had sigung (ip ching) over to the states a couple times, so i can certainly vouch that these 5 are all DEFINATELY part of the wing chun ip ching teaches. i don't know where you've gotten your information about them, but if you are ever in the albany, NY area i can definately show you all 5

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
In relation to other schools...you said you've been to a few schools.

*His ability
*how he teaches...

His ability has always been extremely impressive, but even more so in the last few years. His ability has been improving at a rapid rate which renews my faith in Wing Chun all the time.
He follows the five basic guidelines everyday, and he instills them in all his students every class. He has more of a hands on approach to teaching than other schools have. Everyone in class gets to work with him every class. He is an open book, he happily answers everything he is asked and if demenstrations are needed, he provides them too. He is Ken's best student and he gets together with him as often as he can. One of the many things i really like is the fact that he passes on everything he learned and is learning from ken. He beleives that wing chun is all that is needed so he doesn't water down wing chun with anyother martial arts.

I hope i answered your question. If you have any others, let me know.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
Something that is illogical to me will be illogical to everyone. The arrogance of this statement is mind-boggling.

Are you qualified to determine with absolute certainty what is Wing Chun and what is NOT Wing Chun? You are certainly welcome to offer an opinion, or a point of view, but I doubt very much by the nature of your posts that you have flawless skill in this area. For the record, I am not claiming it for myself.

Matrix

[Atleastimnotyou]

Matrix.

I am seriously not trying to be arrogant. i am just talking about a scientific process. "what is illogical to me is illogical to everyone"
For example: "the world is flat" That is illogical to me. That is illogical to everyone. Am i arrogant in claiming with all my heart that the world is not flat? no, i am not aroogant is stating that fact.

Just curious. do you know what logic is?

[TjD]

if this is the way all of carl's students are, underinformed and overzealous, i hope we don't get any more on this forum

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by TjD
if this is the way all of carl's students are, underinformed and overzealous, i hope we don't get any more on this forum

Underinformed? I don't beleive so. I have seen one of the Ip's do the 3rd set and i saw none of the 5 guidelines. I have also been to their web site and i saw things that did not fit wing chun.
Overzealous, i thought this is a forum to discuss wing chun?

[TjD]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou


Underinformed? I don't beleive so. I have seen one of the Ip's do the 3rd set and i saw none of the 5 guidelines. I have also been to their web site and i saw things that did not fit wing chun.
Overzealous, i thought this is a forum to discuss wing chun?

discuss, yes; bash everything that isnt your own brand of wing chun, no

i've seen sigung do siu lim tau, chum kiu and parts of the wooden dummy; i've seen all 5 while he was doing them

i've had the pleasure of chi sauing with sigung, i've felt all five

my sifu stresses 2-5 from day one, and 1 after you can relax enough so that it wont mess up 2-5, your structure and your stance

i've seen the man himself, and i study his wing chun. you've watched one person from another school do biu jee. whose more informed?

i think before you make such broad sweeping comments you should do a little research into the subject at least. you'd be surprised how much you can learn about your own wing chun if you empty your cup and listen to what the other styles of it have to say

[Atleastimnotyou]

It was Ip Ching that i saw do the 3rd set, not one of his students.
But, i did go to his website to inform myself the best i could without touching hands. In both Ip ching or the student's i saw no sign of KIM SUT, LOK MA, TING YU, AND DUNG TAO. I have seen pictures of yip man and Yip Ching's sholders are not down like his(dung tao). and Yip Ching deffinately is not in the stance like yip man(kim sut, lok ma). why is that?

The stance is something that is able to be seen. The same with the shoulders. If he does Wing chun the way yip man did, then the stance and other visible aspects shouldn't look completely different.

[Atleastimnotyou]

I listen to what every style has to say. I either except what they say or i don't based on what is logical and what makes sense, and what works best.

Thanks, happy training,
Corey

[yuanfen]

I am seriously not trying to be arrogant. i am just talking about a scientific process. "what is illogical to me is illogical to everyone"


Just curious. do you know what logic is?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Baffling-the lesson in science and logic.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
It was Ip Ching that i saw do the 3rd set, not one of his students.
But, i did go to his website to inform myself the best i could without touching hands. In both Ip ching or the student's i saw no sign of KIM SUT, LOK MA, TING YU, AND DUNG TAO. I have seen pictures of yip man and Yip Ching's sholders are not down like his(dung tao). and Yip Ching deffinately is not in the stance like yip man(kim sut, lok ma). why is that?
I don't think you understand these concepts you cite. Dung tao means "head up." You're just pinching terms from Kris Eckert's article.


He is Ken's best student and he gets together with him as often as he can.
Carl is far from Ken's best student. Who told you that? Ken and Ben both have a number of better students. Are you sure you're not Jason Bradley trying to pretend to be someone else?

[old jong]

Originally posted by old jong
Quote..."Before i started to take wing chun, i looked around. so before learning the way i do i saw how others did it. and this just makes more sense."....
So,even before starting in Wing Chun you already knew how to separate good Wing Chun from bad Wing Chun?...:confused:Are you Red5Angel under a new name or are you his twin brother separated at birth?... ;)
Wallah?...;)

[Sihing73]

Hello Atleastimnotyou,

To make such a broad statement regarding being rooted is a show of a narrow perspective. Wing Chun people train to turn on all three aspects of the foot. Some will turn on the balls of the feet, some closer to center and some of the heels. Each method and or approach has certain advantages and disadvantages. However, you are mistaken if you believe that someone someone turning on the heel can not be rooted or that they must resist force using "muscle" power. Some of the other statements being made appear to be of the same vein.

If you truly wish to discuss the various aspects of turning and the advantages of each method, as well as other aspects of this art, I would suggest you empty your cup so as to be able to absord some of the answers. By making broad generalized statements about why something will not work or is not good is not indicative of an open mind, imho.

Peace,

Dave

[CLOUD ONE]

Sihing 73,
Nice to see you join in a disscussion and not waving your 'naughty stick' about:D

If one's cup is a ****tail made up of different liquids is it full?
If one's cup is of one liqiud is it full?

Does yours taste sweeter than Atleastiamnotyou?

Are you sure you have tasted atleastiamnotyou cup?

Narrow perspective is two way.

Where to begin so that you have the same cup is what is the cup made of?
The connection you have is root which both of you agree and undoubtedly feel that it's a main principle of W.C.

[kj]

Hi Corey.


Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
He is Ken's best student

I will be one of the first to attest to Carl's talent and high level of skill, especially wrt his sensitivity and rootedness. On this account, I have great respect for his abilities and accomplishments, which far surpasses my own in absolute terms. It is also easy to observe that his personal teaching style is well suited to many of his students. Further, I credit him with his ability to structure material and motivate his students so well. IMHO, you yourself are an excellent example of Carl's ability to draw out the best in his students. On account of this and more, I maintain all due respect for my sihing, Carl and his well earned abilities.

I realize statements like the one above are well intended, and reflect deep admiration for Carl. However unintentionally, I also feel that such statements are somewhat disrespectful to both Ken and to his many other students. I have heard Ken say many times, including during our last visit, that Ben is by far the closest to him and to what we aim for in our Wing Chun. On that basis alone, your assertion appears to contrast with Ken's view.

I have no cause to presume that Ken feels he has wasted his time and investment in his other students. To the contrary he is consistently adamant about not playing favorites, and appears to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of each quite well.

Even if it were objectively true, saying so publicly could be deemed impolite, if not disharmonious.



and he gets together with him as often as he can.

As many of us happily do. :)

"Best" is subject to objective, subjective, and contextual interpretation, none of which has been sufficiently or exhaustively characterized here. It might be both fun and enriching to explore that in further dialog.

As you know, Ken is very open in entertaining questions. You might consider exploring with him directly about his viewpoints on this subject and inquire who he considers his "best" student, and on what merits.

I'm short on time of late, and apologize that I've not much bandwidth for forums and email. However, I will look forward to see you again soon. It is always a joy to see how well you are progressing under Carl's tutelage.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[red5angel]

LOL! Corey, welcome to the forum!

Matrix says - "Why would anyone move WHEN THEY DON'T NEED TO? You are grasping at straws."

If I have a better root, you move when I want you to whether you want to or not. Thats what a good root gets you. Or one of the things anyway.Whle there may be many ways to root, the only way ot get their is through correct training as Corey has stated. someone brought up the example of Master Cai, who studies wuji. His stance is very shallow but his root is practically immoveable. He does not go into deep stances like we do, as far as I know, but his root is still solid, because he is practicing precisely, and he uses his whole foot, connecting himself solidly to the ground.

Coreys logic is valid. He has even invited you to test his theory. Matrix assumed he also meant leaning but as we all know ;) you can rest on your heels and your toes without leaning with your entire body, however, you are still leaning...and that is just the sort of window that we are looking for....

Corey, check your pm when you get the chance......

[Atleastimnotyou]

John, I fully know what those terms mean. But i do admit in the post of mine you are talking about, i am indeed mistaken. It was late at night and i confused the terms. But it is still MO that i didn't see them.

What i stated about carl, is my opinion too. I am willing to believe that Ken has some better student(s)... like one maybe two. But i think saying he is "far from" it is wrong. I don't want to clutter the thread with this stuff, so maybe you could PM me with a few names. Maybe you could name some people that i didn't think about.

Sihing
A while back I have conceded that one may be rooted while on their heels or toes. But i will always beleive that a person using the center of the foot will always be more roooted. My cup is always empty for logical statements. My mind is often changed. Just not as often here.

Kathy Jo
I beleive saying "best" was a little disrespectful, and i think i made up for that above. i will PM you with some thoughts because i don't think they should clutter the forum with this small stuff.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by red5angel
Matrix assumed he also meant leaning but as we all know ;) you can rest on your heels and your toes without leaning with your entire body, however, you are still leaning...and that is just the sort of window that we are looking for.... I am not "assuming" that he meant leaning. He explicitly asked me to lean. If you feel that the window is open when I shift on my heels, then I invite you to step in. I cannot however guarantee that you will enjoy yourself. ;)

Matrix

[Atleastimnotyou]

It seems we are letting semantics get in the way. As for the exercise, i am just asking you to do it one time. Maybe i am not the only one that should empty his cup??

Get in your stance. Lean/center your weight or whatever you want to call it, on the ball of your feet. see how that feels to you. next do the same thing with your heels and see how that feels to you. Now center your weight on the center of your foot. See how does that feels to you.

The question is not where you feel connection with the ground, you can get that at any point. The question is, where do you feel the MOST connection?

I hope you can at least empty your cup to try this once. I am trying to empty mine.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
Just curious. do you know what logic is? In response to your impertinent question I will say I know that logic is not the mere statement of a simple common fact such as in your example. There was a time when stating that "the world is flat" was considered common sense, and of course someone who lived in those times would have been able to provide you with a line of reason, or logical explanation, for why that was so. But as you can see, logic does not always lead to the truth.

Conversely, simply stating that something is illogical is without merit, unless you can provide your own line of reasoning for your position.

To use another example, I'm sure that we can find several people who can provide logical positions on their conflicting stance on a topic like the death penalty. Can they all provide logical arguements while simultaneously taking opposite viewpoints? Are there only two points of view? Who is correct? Enquiring minds need to know.

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
It seems we are letting semantics get in the way. As for the exercise, i am just asking you to do it one time. Maybe i am not the only one that should empty his cup??I followed your "test" the last time you asked. I responded with a question and you immediately assumed that I had not tried it. Why jump to conclusions?

Matrix

[red5angel]

Matrix, are you saying that when you go to your heels or your toes that you arent leaning? At all? To quote a movie you might be familiar with "hmmm."

[Atleastimnotyou]

a quick message before i go to class.

You never said you tried it, and you came across as not having tried it.

Every well educated mind in "those" times new the earth was round by using reason. On example that they used was by looking at the shadow that the earth cast on the moon when everything was in line. they saw that the earth cast a curved line on the moon... but lets not devote more time to this

[Atleastimnotyou]

the exercise was supposed to let you feel that you are more connected and rooted when your weight is centered... that's all.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
a quick message before i go to class. Have a great class.

Sincerely,
Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by red5angel
Matrix, are you saying that when you go to your heels or your toes that you arent leaning? At all? To quote a movie you might be familiar with "hmmm." Yes, that's what I am saying. At least for the heels.

Matrix

[Mithrandir]

Originally posted by red5angel
Matrix, are you saying that when you go to your heels or your toes that you arent leaning? At all? To quote a movie you might be familiar with "hmmm."

I don't think anyone was advocating centering their weight over their toes...I believe it was either turning on the ball or heel.

Yes, to answer you, it is possible to move the weight to the ball or heel without a visible lean. Just because this ability might be beyond you doesn't mean it isn't possible for others.


Regards

[TjD]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
It was Ip Ching that i saw do the 3rd set, not one of his students.
But, i did go to his website to inform myself the best i could without touching hands. In both Ip ching or the student's i saw no sign of KIM SUT, LOK MA, TING YU, AND DUNG TAO. I have seen pictures of yip man and Yip Ching's sholders are not down like his(dung tao). and Yip Ching deffinately is not in the stance like yip man(kim sut, lok ma). why is that?

The stance is something that is able to be seen. The same with the shoulders. If he does Wing chun the way yip man did, then the stance and other visible aspects shouldn't look completely different.

then i think perhaps you werent looking correctly, because i assure you all 5 are there; or perhaps your descriptions were not what you were looking for

[Atleastimnotyou]

Matrix,

i honestly believe that you can be on your heels without leaning
I TOTALY agree with you on that.

But... i still dont understand WHY you would want to be on your heels? you can not be as connected with the ground on your heels. wing chun doesn't do what works.. wing chun does what works best. and being on the center of your foot works best

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
But... i still dont understand WHY you would want to be on your heels? you can not be as connected with the ground on your heels. wing chun doesn't do what works.. wing chun does what works best. and being on the center of your foot works best
Turning on the heels or balls of the feet changes the length of your turn. I suggest you be aware of this fact. The only thing I'm sure of is one should never say never. :) When Ken Chung and I compare soles of our kung fu slippers, I note that we wear them most just about two inches forward of the heel, not uniformly across the soles as if we were emphasizing the entire foot and not over the balls of the feet.

I've probably pointed this out before, but I'm not going to read back all those pages, so bear with me repeating, if you will: in Sil Nim Tao, where we first begin to learn footwork, and the opening of each empty hand set, we begin with turning out on our heels and follow by turning out again on the balls of our feet. To me this suggests two extremes of foot position. Hence, the back of center point of turning and stance seems to be within the intermediate mid-range of foot turning. I find that Wing Chun usually does not use extremes, but usually finds a middle ground, but this doesn't mean that extremes are never useful in practical usage as I noted above.


Regards,

[Atleastimnotyou]

John i am so happy you posted that. you are exactly right, but you aren't thinking presicely enough. The spot that ken wears out his slipper is called the bubbling well (i might be wrong on the term, it might be tai chi that calls it that). That is the spot on his foot where his energy or connection to the ground comes from. So of course he would not wear out the whole sole.

In regards to the begining of SLT, when you turn your toes out, you are on your whole foot there. not the heels... and when you turn your heels out, you are on the bubbling well not the ball of your foot. ( you are on that spot you and ken wear out all the time.
When you beging SLT, try having your connection there. I think you will find that more precise.

[Zhuge Liang]

I'm pretty sure it's the ball of the foot that Ken pointed out and not the bubbling well. At least when he points it out to us. Weight is distributed most heavily on three points of the foot. The heel, the ball, and the "other ball" right below the pinky toe. If you were to wear out your shoe, these three areas would be the first to go. In our case, because of our knee clamping stance, more weight is put on the "main ball" than the other one. Also, because during the course of our drills (turning related drills mainly), the front of the foot travels a greater arc than the heel, the ball of the foot should get worn out faster. In my experience, and from what I observed with my sihengdai's, this is generally true.

Of course, this only applies if you do the same kind of drills with the same kind of emphasis on weighting, balance, etc. Like Kathy Jo says, your mileage may vary.

Zhuge Liang

[Atleastimnotyou]

are you sure it is the ball of your foot? ask ken directly again. I don't think it is the ball of the foot.

[Zhuge Liang]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
are you sure it is the ball of your foot? ask ken directly again. I don't think it is the ball of the foot.

Sure. I don't think anyone else here is interested in which part of our shoes gets worn out in our family so I'll ask Ken and post the answer on the LSLA. Ironically, the place we train at now has just gotten new carpetting (without our knowledge or consent, but then again, it's not our place and we're borrowing) so the shoe-wear-out-dynamics may be different.

Zhuge Liang

[OdderMensch]

. I don't think anyone else here is interested in which part of our shoes gets worn out in our family

truth be told, I'm more interstead in why Carl's school seems to have a rack of bowling balls in it :D

I often point out shoe wear to my Si Dai, "see your shoe is wearing out on the edge, work on that" I myself have a small collection of no good kung fu shoes that are worn progesivly more toward the "bubbling well point"

Hey, while i'm typeing a post atleastimnotyou might read, where you in Ohio this April for the Great Lakes tourny? if so who were you? I was the bigger bald guy from Texas. Did you compete?

oh and atleastimnotyou, imgladyourenotr5a!

not that I don't love r5a or anything but multi acounts are lame.

[OdderMensch]

. I find that Wing Chun usually does not use extremes, but usually finds a middle ground, but this doesn't mean that extremes are never useful in practical usage as I noted above.

Never going to extremes is an extreme position.

[Atleastimnotyou]

oddermensch, you make me laugh :D

The reason we have all those bowling balls is because our wing chun is a front, we are actually a gang of theives that specialize in the stealing of bowling balls.:D
Actually, Carl also teaches Chen Tai chi as a "complement" to wing chun. and the bowling balls are a part of the Tai Chi ball form... we use the bowling balls instead of the actual Tai Chi ball. The actual ball is 35lbs made of brass with a bead inside.
Oh, and how did you know we had them?

[Atleastimnotyou]

oh, and yes i was in that tournament. I got second place in chisau, in the short advanced catagory. I was the one that was made to wear that ****y blue belt thing (i forget why they made me wear that...i think to designate i was "in the blue corner" kind of crap. ) I remember one kid from tx and that judge guy... but no bald guy...

[OdderMensch]

that was my Sifu.
i got third in the advanced tall, not bad since i managed to not throw any punchs! :D i'm not bald but have very short hair and a light beard.

the blue thing was so there was no question who was who in the middle of a match when people would get turned around and such. many people had simmilar shirts, and it gave the judges a clear "I'm guy A, he's guy B" veiw. It was however a last minute addition.

as for the bowling balls? I see many things, yes many things indeed. and i checked out the website.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
John i am so happy you posted that. you are exactly right, but you aren't thinking presicely enough.
I seldom do. Thanks for pointing that out. :)


The spot that ken wears out his slipper is called the bubbling well (i might be wrong on the term, it might be tai chi that calls it that). That is the spot on his foot where his energy or connection to the ground comes from. So of course he would not wear out the whole sole.

In regards to the begining of SLT, when you turn your toes out, you are on your whole foot there. not the heels... and when you turn your heels out, you are on the bubbling well not the ball of your foot. ( you are on that spot you and ken wear out all the time.
When you beging SLT, try having your connection there. I think you will find that more precise.
I'll trust Z Huge Liang, AKA A N, to ask Ken tomorrow and let me know on Saturday if he hasn't posted a definitive description by then.

Bubbling well! :) So colorful. I've not heard that term. :) But then, I know squat about Taiji. I don't even know if I have a dan tien. :) I think I lent mine to KJ or David and they kept it. Or maybe I thought they were passing out gum and I declined it. I bet it's something French. Heck, I don't even own a bowling ball. I can throw a chi ball though. :)

[Atleastimnotyou]

everyone has a dan tien, but most cant use it... im not great at it. but if anyone reading wants to learn,, study the tai chi ball exercise

[{i^(]

But that.....wouldn't be Wing Chun!!! AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHH!!!!

Oh, why mess around? I'm sticking my head into the trash compactor NOW...


r5a: the example of master cai (I think that was what you said?) was that his stance was higher, etc. IIRC. This, along with anecdotal evidence from other leads to the logical (yep, logic, atleastimnotyou) conclusion that rootedness (whatever it may be) is not to be located in the feet AT ALL.

FWIW: it's in the rest of the body. That's my arrogant/ill-informed statement for the day.

Oh, I have no navel. I'm a test-tube baby, so I can't study chi gung. so there.

[joy chaudhuri]

The taichi ball exercise is good for taichi mechanics and for general devlopment of stiff folks but it does little for developing the understanding of wing chun mechanics.Wing chun is wing chun is wing chun.I believe that I know enough of both(tc ball and wc) to give an informed opinion. But it is an opinion
not a dogma. If chewing gum helps to relax the jaw for wing chun for someone- I am all for it.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
everyone has a dan tien, but most cant use it... im not great at it. but if anyone reading wants to learn,, study the tai chi ball exercise
Not so. I had mine surgically removed. Now I feel thirty pounds lighter. :) Or maybe its just from putting down that bowling ball.

Ask your doctor.

Red5,

I think I got your movie reference. The Incredible Mister Limpwrist, right? :)

Regards,

[red5angel]

I think Corey has a good idea, just give it a try for a year and see if you feel anything different. Its not just for taichi anymore! ;)

Face: "rootedness (whatever it may be) is not to be located in the feet AT ALL"

You are getting closer, but still so far away!

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by red5angel
I think Corey has a good idea, just give it a try for a year and see if you feel anything different. Its not just for taichi anymore! ;)

Hi Jason,

Yes, it is just for taiji. I find that I've only touched the surface of Wing Chun, and I don't need to pack off on a tangential path.

Give me that ole' time Wing Chun any day. I am most in agreement with {i^( , except for the part about sticking my head into the trash compactor. That's more reminiscent of Qigung training than Wing Chun. :)

Regards,

[{i^(]

I forgot to ask. How's that new dan tien coming along? You're still typin', so the ole chi's still pumping....

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by {i^(
I forgot to ask. How's that new dan tien coming along? You're still typin', so the ole chi's still pumping....
Hi {i^(,

I seem to have accumulated a lot of Chi around the middle since Ken's Wing Chun camp at the Marin Headlands. Still, remarkably, my dan tien transplant seems to be holding up.

Like Clint Eastwood in Bloodwork, I've just got to remember to consume mass quantiities of pharmaceuticals. Perhaps imbibing psychoactive drugs is what makes me so relatively mellow these days in Internet inter course.

Not like me in the old days when I'd have made fun of your copyrights for Ouing Xun(tm), Veng Stun (tm), & Yengxun (tm). Today, I just wish I'd thought of them first. :)

I'll take a break now and launch some Chi your way. Don't waste it. :)

Regards,

[{i^(]

YEP! I'm going to copyright ALL the remaining alternate spellings for Wing Chun (tm), so I can both limit the splintering tendencies of the art as a whole AND make tens of dollars at the same time!

Kinda like two birds with one chi ball...

Good to know everything's cool!

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by {i^(
YEP! I'm going to copyright ALL the remaining alternate spellings for Wing Chun (tm), so I can both limit the splintering tendencies of the art as a whole AND make tens of dollars at the same time!

LOL,

You're on your way to Wing Chun, er...Ouing Xun(tm), Veng Stun (tm), & Yengxun (tm) greatness. Don't forget the Tsun Bo exercise tape market. Might even catch some football fans.

Regards,

[asn3]

saw this thread and noticed the earlier comments concerning heel turning, buddy wu, and the tourney in cleveland a few months ago, particularly atleastimnotyou's assessment of the quality of his students, and it seemed by extension, his methods, which yuanfen had alluded to. atleastimnotyou is certainly welcome to his opinion. my comment would be, fwiw, that none of buddy wu's senior students were in attendance at that tourney. anyways, not an excuse, just an observation...

[Atleastimnotyou]

sorry if it sounded like i wasn't impressed with how well his students did wing chun. that is not what i meant. i meant i wasn't impressed with the way they did wing chun. no matter, it's just my opinion

Also, i have seen FWIW around, what does that mean?

[Mithrandir]

Atleastimnotyou,

FWIW= for what it's worth