When Do I Start Feeling Good

[Sleemie]

I started my Kung Fu class about a month ago and have been lifting for a few months, but I just started going really hot and heavy on the Kung Fu class for like 2 weeks now. One reason I'm exercising like this is so that I can feel better and have more energy, but so far all I've felt is soreness and draggin my ass. How long does it take for all this work to build me up to the point where I feel good and energetic?

[Ford Prefect]

Prolonged fatigue and/or soreness = over-training. Take a week off of both or take your intensity down a few notches.

[Kope]

First, make sure you are not over-training.

Too much excercise can be just as damaging as too little.

You need to give youself time between classes and weight training for your body to heal the damage done by the activity. A day is usually sufficient, but if you are not used to training you might need two or three.

Second, don't train too hard at first. You should "feel the burn" a very little as you start out. But you shouldn't be waking up the next morning so sore you walk funny from practicing your horse stance. If that is happening you are training too hard for a beginner.

Third, make sure you are eating well. Your diet has a great influence on your body's ability to grow and heal. Do a water fast one day a week, eat lots of raw fruits and veggies, make sure you are getting sufficient lean protien. Watch your fatty acids, not for calories or %-age, but for type! Fatty acids -3, -6, and -9 (fish, avacados, almonds, etc.) are necessary for good nutrition. Also drink lots of water. Not "fluids." Water! Lots of it. 64-100 oz of water a day. More on days you are working out. Dehydration has a major impact on your muscles. If you are thirsty, you are already in the first stages of dehydration!

Fourth, make sure you are getting plenty of quality sleep! If you aren't sleeping enough, your body will let you know. Listen to it. Good sleep paterns can make all the difference in the world. If you are getting less than 8 hours a night, seriously try to get more. If you need an alarm clock to wake up instead of your eyes just opening 'cause you're done sleeping, then you are not getting enough!!

Lastly, be aware that it can take a good long time before your body is really used to being used the way Kung Fu uses a body! You may have lots of stretching and strengthening of little used muscles to get through -- and no matter how correctly you do those things, some soreness is just going to happen.

I would say that it took me about a year to really feel great after a good kung fu class. But I started noticing significant improvements much earlier than that.

Keep at it. Don't over-train. Eat right. Get plenty of sleep. And keep at it and it will come.

[Sleemie]

Maybe I'm stubborn or whatever, but I don't feel like I'm doing too much. I kind of feel like my body should be able to handle this. From what I've heard of some of the crazy training regimens that some people have on here, I don't feel like mine is terribly rigerous, and I should be able to handle it. As far as having resting days inbetween, I've always done that with the weights, as you should do, but with the Kung Fu, isn't that something you should do every day? This is my routine, which I don't think you'll find to be terribly rigerous. I lift weights M-W-F at lunch time for about an hour, and then do some stretching afterwards... on those same days I go to Kung Fu class for two hours in the evening, the first hour is the basic class (which all students are encouraged to attend because of the workout) this class is about 45 minutes of going fairly hard...the second hour is the handset class where you get a lot of breaks because you have to take turns doing your forms, so it's really only about 20 minutes of actual work where you can either relax, stretch, or do whatever while waiting your turn. On Tuesdays and Thursdays evenings I go to the basic sparring class for one hour in the evenings. This is a very basic class, no contact, starting from the very beginning, teaching us how to throw punches and stances and footwork. It's a fairly busy class, you have to stay in a fighting stance for the entire hour and there a lot of punches and so forth thrown, to the point where there's a little soreness the next day. Saturday and Sunday I take it fairly easy. I'll practice my form here and there throughout the day, enough to get a good sweat going and a little hard breathing and will stretch on at least one of those days.

I've been trying to improve my diet, adding more veggies, eating berries and stuff.

The thing is, I usually feel pretty good during most of my classes and even feel good after class, but during the day at work and before class I tend to feel a kinda tired and a little sore. I've always been one to feel tired during the day and was hoping the workouts would help energize me.

[Ford Prefect]

I'm just telling you that those are classic overtraining symptoms. You'll need to be eating a good amount of food to compensate for your activity level, and as said above, you need your sleep. Most people on the internet lie about what their training regimen is like anyway. Pain and fatigue are there for a reason. Listen to your body. If I'm working out and something hurts or I'm not feeling there, I either stop all together or I take it a lot easier than I normally would.

[Kope]

Don't worry about what you "feel" you "should" be able to handle or not.

Worry about what you body says it CAN handle.

If you are so fatigued that you are concerned enough to post here you are pobably doing something WRONG!

Some people's bodies don't take changes to their routine well at all.

I, for example, can get massive jet-lag from moving just one time zone away. Other people can jump 5 or 6 time zones before the disturbance in their sleep pattern bothers them. Still other people can jet-set any number of time-zones and it NEVER effects them in any noticable way.

That doesn't make me a wimp. It makes me a person who's body doesn't adjust to changes in sleep routines well.

Similarly, some people will not adjust well to adding excercise to their day. They need to do it gradually and give themselves plenty of time to aclimate to the new routine.

You may be that type of person.

Further, you give us no real indication of your fitness level or how heavy you are lifting weights. Further, I see that you aren't doing any aerobic stuff. If you're heart rate is getting going during the KF classes, you maybe need to only go to 2 or 3 a week until you are used to the aerobic workout.

[Sleemie]

Okay...all good points. So, if I feel good during and after the workouts, isn't that an indication maybe I'm not overtraining? Also, as I mentioned, I've always been one to feel tired during the day, it's just that I expected to feel more energetic since I was working out this much, I don't really feel much worse than before, other than the regular soreness from working out. Someone mentioned pain and backing off, but isn't it normal for you to feel the "good" soreness when you begin working out certain muscles that haven't been worked out like that for a long time. I have been working out long enough to know soreness from damage, in fact, I think I've tweaked a little something in my shoulder that I would say is damage instead of soreness, like a pull or something, but I only feel it when I make certain movements, so I'm not too worried about it, I figure it will heal with time. I rarely feel it during any of my workouts, so long as I don't do certain movements.

As you can probably tell, I'm trying to justify my workout schedule because I don't want to back off right now. This may be backwards, but I figure that I'll back off in a little while when some of my enthusiam diminishes.

I get my aerobic workout from class. My fitness level is this....I've been lifting for a while now, I would say about 10 months with maybe a cummulative gap of about 6 weeks during that time where I wasn't lifting. I'm not a heavy duty lifter at all, but I do max out on about 80% of my sets, the first set of an exercise being the warm up and then maxing out on the other two, so I would say it's a moderate level of strenuousness (if there is such a word). Aerobically, I stink....I've had no regular aerobic activity in years, so the aerobic aspect of my workout in class is pretty much new to my system, but I've been at it for about 6 weeks now. I thought aerobically, though, you could pretty much push yourself and not have to worry about resting on days inbetween or anything like that, it was more so not going too hard on your muscles.

I don't mean to sound argumentative or like I disagree with you guys, and I do appreciate your input.

[Kope]

Overtraining will show in the recovery period, not in the training itself.

Well, not quite -- it will show in the training routine in that you won't make as much progress as you could as fast as you could due to the excessive over-working of your system. But if you aren't that experienced at knowing how fast you should be making progress you might not see it.

Considering that you haven't done much aerobic stuff before, I'd think you are probably over-working with adding that much stuff at once.

Here's my suggestion: take 2 weeks off from ALL workouts. During that time try to accomplish 3 things -- get yourself up to drinking sufficient water each day (again 64-100 oz of water a day), get your sleep pattern set so that you are waking up without an alarm clock when you need to get up, and figuring out how to balance your diet so that you're getting a really well-balance meal with 80% or more of your carb calories coming from low-GI indexed foods, preferrably raw. (Ie, carbs from green salad, not from pasta!).

If you are in reasonably good shape (ie, not 40 pounds or more overweight) waking up without an alarm clock, eating well, getting plenty of water, and you still are feeling fatigued during the day, then you might want to at this point consider seeing a doctor.

After those 2 weeks you should be feeling pretty good. start doing your weight training again. Do that for one or two weeks and really pay attention to how you feel in terms of fatigue. Pay attention to your calorie burn rate and your calorie intake. Try to make sure you add enough protiens. Modify your sleep schedule as needed to continue to wake up on your own, without an alarm clock. You should wake up refreshed and with no feelings of fatigue even after a workout day. You may be sore, but you should feel like you still have plenty of energy.

Now start adding in MA classes. Start with 2 per week, for an hour each. Don't just start going all out again -- that's what got you to the point of feeling lousy to begin with!!

Again, adjust your diet and sleep patterns as needed so that you are feeling "good to go" through the day.

At that point start adding in more MA time. You will want to probably add no more than an hour a week per month to give youself time to adjust to your new activity level.

Yes, that means that it might take you 8 months or more to get back to where you are now.

No, I'm not insane.

Over-training is a serious problem with lots of people -- even trained athletes. And it can be the root cause of a ton of very real and nasty injuries. Not to mention, the depressing effects on over-training on your body can lead to increased suseptability to disease.

Go slow and easy. Adding workouts gradually.

You can at some point probably increase faster than I'm suggesting, but always give your body time to adjust to the new workout level and make sure you're not feeling overly fatigued during the day from the workouts.

Really, you shouldn't worry about it too much. Kung Fu is after all "hard work," it's also a life-time pursuit. Work up gradually to what your body can handle and you'll likely stick with it longer, and advance far quicker in the long run, than if you jump in whole hog and burn yourself out in 6 months.

Finally, consider instead of MA work every day, adding some long walks, jumping rope, running, biking, swimming, or other "cross training" activities in there. Again, in all cases add activity slowly and make sure you're body is well adjusted to the new load before adding more. Again, you're in it for the long run, not the quick sprint, so don't worry about how fast you build up the activities.

[IronFist]

Ford and Kope beat me to it.

If you're beginning an exercise program, ease into it. Many people get all excited about it and end up overtraining.

Good luck.

IronFist

[Sleemie]

You know what...what you said makes perfect sense, and I appreciate your time and thought in to my post, but to be honest with you, I can't get myself to do that at this time. I know, it's stubborness, and maybe even stupidity, but I'm very much one of those all or nothing people, and this is what I'm really in to at the moment and I just can't get myself to give it up for two weeks, not even one of my activities, lifting or kung fu. I could be wrong, but I figure that my body will catch up in time. The best I can do now is to do a better job of drinking my water, as you suggested and also be more diligent about eating the veggies, and also setting a consistent and complete sleep pattern, and then only going to class 4 days a week, maybe down to 3 on some weeks. I've got this crazy mentality where last week thursday I had gone to class every day and lifted on M and W and felt like I HAD to lift AND go to class friday to have a "perfect" week. I had told myself that I wouldn't do the same this week, but so far I have, and I intend on going to class tonight and lifting tomorrow. I MAY skip class tomorrow night, but that's the handset class and I only need one more lesson to finish up the first form and I'm excited about that, so I may not be able to stay away.

Thanx for all your info, though. You sound like you know your stuff.

[Ford Prefect]

That sounds like a disorder to me. Knowing that doing something will harm your body and continuing to do it because of some subconsious need...

Overtraining won't kill you, but it can lead to injury. Not only that, but your progress will be more severely hampered in the long run than if you just took a week or two off. Take the time off to read up on proper nutrition and periodization, so you can plan your workouts and your corresponding diet to not leave you chronically fatigued.

[Kope]

Well, it's your body :)

But be aware - that overtraining is not something your body will "catch up" to . . .

If you are over-training, what will eventually happen is that you will either give your body the time it needs to recover, or your body will get the time it needs by crashing on you -- usually involving some nasty pulled muscle or torn ligament that won't ever seem to heal.

You will also (if you are overtraining) get more and more susceptable to diseases and infections and will get colds and flues that will just kick your butt.

Muscle cells are damaged by excercise. If you don't give the body time to heal those cells, then they will remain damaged. Over time, the number of damaged cells trying to repair themselves but failing (due to the work load being placed on them) will rise till a a critical point is reached where the muscle will simple give up and tear apart.

Normally, most people who over-train succumb to the fatique and disease issues before they reach this point. But some don't.

Just FYI.

[Sleemie]

I don't think it's a case of me doing something that I know will hurt me, it's more of not believing that I'm over training. I guess I just don't feel like I'm working that hard to believe that I'm overtraining. When I lift on M-W-F, I don't do ANY leg work, and when I'm in class the majority of the strain is on my legs, sitting in horse stance, kicking, forms, etc....and the upper body work I do in class is not so strenuous to where I'm not getting my day of rest between lifting. At least that's my rationale...don't know if it's accurate or not. The other thing is that my symptoms are being tired a lot and experiencing soreness...but I was tired a lot before I started working out, and I think the soreness is normal. I'll admit, I probably overdid it last week, and may be pushing the envelope this week, but I think I just need to make the adjusments in nutrition, sleep, etc. that was mentioned and maybe cut a lesson during the week. As far as going to a dr, I've actually been to a dr a couple of times about being tired, and nothing was found, they said all my blood work and pressure and all that stuff was in pretty good shape.

[Kope]

It's possible that your problems stem from nutrition, sleep, or something we haven't even touched on yet (stress at work, whatever).

However, having said all that -- you also seem to be under the misconception that since you do arm lifts with weights and lower body work with your MA that it CAN'T be overtraining. That's just not so. Your body is a single system. You may not be overtraining any one muscle, but you may still be overtaxing what your system can handle in a given time period.

In fact, that's the most typical type of overtaining -- the athlete doesn't over-work any one muscle group so they don't believe they can be over-working the body as a total system.

Not only is it possible, it's common.

Again, just saying this for an FYI. If you are not so fatigued that you can make continue doing the work you can see if you can make adjustments to your sleep and diet that will cover your needs. But it probably wouldn't hurt to read up on over-training.

[PLCrane]

Hey Sleemie,

These guys have a lot of good advice. I know some older martial artists, and they're all suffering from old training injuries.

BTW, what do you do with your body the rest of the week, when you're not training? You're not laying rails or anything like that, are you?

[Sleemie]

Well, I guess that's another reason I feel like I can push hard with my training, because I do have a lot of time to recuperate. I'm in the IT field, and although I have to go from desk to desk during the day, it's not very physically taxing at all, and there times where I can just chill at my desk.

Also, if you feel strong during your training session, isn't that a sign that you're probably not overtraining?? I mean I've had a couple of days during class, such as last night, where I felt like my body was just not up to it, but 90% of the time I feel strong during my workouts. Last night during and after class I felt whipped, so I took it easy and had decided I was going to skip class today since I'd gone every day this week, but today I woke up feeling a pep in my step and am considering going to class.

I'm not disagreeing with any of the advice given if in fact I am overtraining, I guess it's just that I'm not convinced that I am. I know there are some days, such as last night, where I would be better served to go home and chill, but overall I think I'm okay with my schedule, with some slight modifications and also following some of the advice on sleep and nutrition and water.

Thanx again for everyone's input, even though I'm stubborn