Wong Kiew Kit on Hung Gar Combat Applications

[FIRE HAWK]

COMBAT APPLICATION OF KUNGFU

HOW ARE THE FOLLOWING TIGER PATTERNS FROM HOONG KA KUNGFU USED IN COMBAT APPLICATION?


The following two patterns are found in Hoong Ka (Hung Gar) Kungfu. How are they used in combat?





The two kungfu patterns above demonstrated by the great Hoong Ka master Lam Sai Weng of south China are taken from an old Chinese kungfu book entitled "Fu Hok Seong Ying" or "Tiger-Crane Double Forms" recorded by his pupil, Choo Yu Chai of Hong Kong. The left picture shows the pattern "Black Tiger Breaks Flank", and the right picture shows "Fierce Tiger Crouching at Cliff".


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Lam Sai Weng (or Lin Shi Yong in Mandarin pronounciation) was the successor of the legendary Southern Shaolin master Wong Fei Hoong (Huang Fei Hung), from whose lineage much of today's Hoong Ka (Hung Gar) Kungfu is derived. One of the most famous kungfu sets in Hoong Ka Kungfu, and in all kungfu, is "Fu Hok Seong Ying" or Tiger-Crane Double Forms, which specializes on the tiger and the crane features of Shaolin Kungfu.

This Tiger-Crane Set is beautiful to watch, but even more beautiful are the combat applications of its patterns, although many kungfu students, including those who have learnt this famous Hoong Ka set, may not know how to use them. Hence, some people mistakenly think that kungfu patterns are merely decorative, good for demonstration but not for combat. This situation is aggravated today when kungfu is often practised like gymnastics or dance and not as a martial art.


This pattern shown on the left is called "Black Tiger Breaks Flank". As its name implies, it draws inspiration from the Tiger characteristics. It is a Tiger pattern not just because of its external features of using the tiger-claws for its hand forms, but also because of its internal feature of using internal force in its combat application, in what is called in kungfu jargon as "using bone", in contrast to "using strength".




In the first picture above, Goh Kok Hin and I observe each other in typical poise patterns. In the second picture, Goh attacks with a thrust punch.




I move my front left leg to my left side to avoid the punch. Immediately I grap Goh's right wrist with my right tiger-claw and simultaneously strke Goh's right elbow with my bent left forarm, applying internal force from my left elbow, dislocating Goh's right elbow using the pattern "Black Tiger Breaks Flank".


The picture on the right shows the Hoong Ka pattern called "Fierce Tiger Crouching at Cliff". It is understandable if many students wonder how such a pattern could be used for combat. The sequence below shows its combat application.




Goh Koh Hin attacks my left collar bone with a palm chop in a pattern called "Chopping the Hua Mountain". I shift my back left leg a small step backward and deflect, not block, his chopping attack with my left hand.




Immediately I grip Goh's right wrist with my left tiger-claw, and grip his right elbow with my right tiger-claw. Simultaneously I move my front right leg in bwteeen his two legs. Continuing my two grips on relevant vital points at Goh's right elbow and wrist, the attack of which by themselves can put Goh's right arm out of action, I pull down his right wrist with my left tiger-claw while pushing up at his right elbow with my right tiger-claw palm, thus dislocating his right elbow, and simultaneously strike his right ribs with my right elbow. I also take care to manoeuvre Goh in such a way that he cannot counter-attack me with his left hand or right leg.

All the movements described above may look complicated to an uninitiated person, but a trained exponent can, and should, execute them smoothly in a split second. Hence, this innocent-looking Hoong Ka pattern, "Fierce Tiger Crouching at Cliff", may look harmless, but is actually a very effective combative pattern, attacking the opponent at four different places in one smooth action.

Such a profound pattern is not thought out by some kungfu scholar sitting in an ivory tower, but is evolved through the centuries from actual fighting experience. This is possible only when the fighting system has been institionalized, as in Shaolin Kungfu and Taijiquan, where distilled fighting techniques and skills have been passed down as crystalized forms. Such depth is not possible in systems where exponents fight in a formless manner, basing their responses to combat situations on their individual, and often impromtu, reaction.

http://www.geocities.com/~wahnam/comb/tiger.html

[illusionfist]

His application of fierce tiger crouches at the cliff is totally off. If you look at the angle of Lam Sai Wings posture and the way he does it, you can totally tell that WKK couldn't do much damage from that position with that particular faht. And quite frankly, the app he provides is totally wrong for that move. That move really needs to be taken in context with the follow up which is fierce tiger scratches the sand.

The way he presents that move is much like a later section which uses the combination of advancing whipping fist(which is used like an elbow)

The application he gives for black tiger breaks flank is kind of off, but not as far fetched as the other. The technique he uses for black tiger breaks flank is more like monkey steals the peach (not the common groin grab that is associated with that name).

Peace :D

[Fu-Pow]

I agree with you illusionfist. I studied Hung Gar for a while. I thought that the "Tiger Crouches at Cliff" was used as a blocking move with the fore arm.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[denali]

Tiger crouches at cliff is good for getting out of a grab and following with an an attack. You can see this in the movements leading up to the posture.

[namkuen]

First off, the name of the techique is "Cornered Fierce Tiger Fights Back", not "Fierce Tiger Crouching at Cliff". (I don't think Cliff would like a fierce tiger crouching at him.) LOL

Also, the application presented by WKK is not correct. To best understand the technique, one has to understand it within the context of that segment of the Fu Hok form. The technique that preceeds it and proceeds are of great significance to the application of this technique.

The preceeding technique is "Children Bowing to Buddha". This technique is executed with an angled Buddist Palm strike from a forward stance position. With this technique, fighter attacks the opponent's throat (or anything within range between the opponent's shoulders). Thus, the attacker is inside the opponent's gate or arm and shoulder area.

Immediately following this attack, the fighter then grabs both the opponents arms just below the elbows and quickly pulls back while scrappings the down the opponent's arms with the tiger claws. This pulling is done by shifting into the horse stance and shifting the body weight onto the rear leg of the stance. This action will violently jerk the opponent forward towards the attacker.

The attacker then executes the "Tiger's Eye, Leopard's Punch" to the opponent's head. This technique is executed with double leopard paw techniques with the arms in an arc shape and from the forward stance position.

When these techniques are mastered, they are very, very powerful. They flow instantly in sequence, 1-2-3! I hope this helps!

Peace!!!

DWR

One who conquers others is strong, but one who conquers himself is mighty! Lao Tzu

[mysteri]

sifu buck sam kong did this application in october 2000 issue of IKF. did anyone here catch that? he's on the cover of the magazine. i thought that he did a good job with the application, teaching it as a forearm deflect, but then he reached into a foward stance with double tiger claws to the collar bones, and pulled back into a cat stance and jerked the opponent violently to the ground. dose this seem like a good application? i'm a jow ga stylist and i thought it seemed like a pretty good one if done explosively. what about you guys?

In a fight you should never stick to principles; they should stick to you!

[denali]

Nam Kuen: The movement is also great for getting out of the opponents hands. For example, if you tried the "Children Bowing to Buddha" attack, what would you do if the opponent managed to get ahold of both or one of your arms? Try it-- the twisting motion works quite well and also brings your opponent toward you, setting you up for the next attack. Some postures have more than one application and are sometimes there as a guard in case the opponent has a decent defense.

[illusionfist]

Mysteri- the application that you are speaking of is the one that i was aluding to. The chest grab is fierce tiger scratches at the sand. Fierce tiger crouches at the cliff is the move preceding this one and its the move that opens up the opponents guard after the grab.

Peace :D

[namkuen]

denali, You are quite correct! That is a great application for the technique, "Cornered, fierce tiger fights back".

Mysteri: You are also correct! Buck Sam Kong did an excellent job of demonstrating the application for that technique.

Peace!!!

DWR

One who conquers others is strong, but one who conquers himself is mighty! Lao Tzu

[WongFeHung]

We use Child worshipping the Buddha the same way some Wing Chun schools use Bai Sam Fut-worship thrice to the Buddha-as an emergency technique to regain the bridge when one is trapped or overwhelmed, when the bridge is compromised. The transistion into Tiger pawing sand is one of immediate attack from the previous posture.

[MaFuYee]

people, people... that 'crouching tiger' move, is definitely not used as WKK shows it, and neither is it used to "block/deflect" a grab, with the forearms, and then strike the collar bones. (at least, not beyond THE MOST BASIC level.)

that particular application is used to throw the attacker; and here is the hint: the 'energy' is focused at the right elbow.

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
-- Albert Einstein

[denali]

i'm afraid that i don't really see how that movement could be a throw..please explain more. i'm not saying it's not, just that i haven't seen that before (i am fairly new to hung gar)
The angle of the right arm in that movement would make it difficult to get much power for throwing i think..

but as we all know, there is usually more than 1 application for a movement.

and if the application works, then it is valid.

[This message was edited by denali on 08-15-01 at 04:53 PM.]

[MaFuYee]

<THICK CHINESE ACCENT>
Ancient Chinese Secret<&TM>
</THICK CHINESE ACCENT>

seriously though; i would like to tell you, but i am not authorized to teach. - you should ask your sifu.

* another hint: you don't stand in front of your attacker, so you can trade shots with him. - do you understand the concept of "in-fighting"? (are you sure?)

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
-- Albert Einstein

[The Whyzyrd]

That is a pretty lame response. You seem to be qualified enough to dispute someone elses interpretation of a Hung Ga move but yet are not qualified enough to explain it? Actually - I'm interested as well. I don't see that move as a throw.

I do think I have a pretty good understanding of infighting and I am not sure I see a throw from that move. I have used that move while sparring with my training brothers as a block and set up for some pretty solid counters BUT I am having a hard time envisioning it as a throw?

Please - explain what you mean.

"The Wolf does not regard the barking dog"

[MaFuYee]

the word i used, was "authorized".

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
-- Albert Einstein

[denali]

you aren't "teaching", discussing this won't make you my sifu and you shouldn't need to be "authorized" to discuss something which we both study unless you were told not to..which is different.

btw.. MaFuYee : who do you study hung gar under? and how long have you studied?

[mantis108]

If I may...

If the attack is right punch and his stance is right leg forward, then your right leg (horse stance) can jam his leg (your are facing his frontside not the backside) while your right arm forms the elbow catching his arm at the elbow (inside your folded arm). As you sit into your horse stance and slightly turning your body toward his, you would be able to a) break his elbow b) unbalance him or throw if you jam your knee and fold your elbow fast and hard enough (providing you have at all time secured his hand with your left hand). It is award but... just a thought

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[MaFuYee]

108:

i don't think that would work too well.
the arm catching the elbow would not have a lot of strength, catching it in that position. (not optimal.)

(hint)... if only wkk were "closer"...
(and, if only the attacker had left hand, and left foot forward....)

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
-- Albert Einstei

[mantis108]

Ah... the left side

in that case, thread your right arm through his left arm and "rest" the claw on his neck (in horse stance). Using the pressure point around the neck and voila - take down from the front. Or ... seems like there are a few options here...

Thanks for sharing. :)

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[MaFuYee]

sorry mantis,

still thinking one dimensionally.
but, to be fair, i assume you are actually not a hung gar practitioner, but rather a mantis practitioner. - it helps to know how the move is performed, in the form.

* i'm pretty sure jerry love should know this app. (although he probably knows it by another name.)

maybe he'll be so kind as to enlighten you.

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
-- Albert Einstein

[denali]

Ok.. I got it. Makes good sense. . Thanks for the insight. I also discussed it with my sifu who showed me some good stuff.

This series of movements also has great applications for defending against someone with a staff. .

Interesting to actually be discussing Hung Gar on here for a change..

[MaFuYee]

denali,

how about sharing the knowledge, so whyz, and m108 can also have a better understanding??

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
-- Albert Einstein

[Grays Anatomy]

Yes please. I am not too sure - still. I understand what you guys are saying about the "left side" attack...

If your attacker comes in left punch - left foot forward and you get outside the punch - ie take the angle, and wind up with your right knee just to the outside of your attackers left knee AND...um...what? This is where that particular moves eems to fail me as a takedown. I suppose you wind up grabbing the arm in the claws and pulling backwards? Essentially pulling your opponent down over your right leg? I must be missing something.

Help!!!

"Remember, that amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic."

[mantis108]

Oh well... I tried. :D

I am not a Hung Gar stylist so it would be interesting to see the HG POV. Thanks for sharing. :)

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[Kung Lek]

Hi-

For any given technique in any given form, their are a multiplicity of applications.
What is shown in the photos posted is not incorrect. It is just be a different application of the same movement.

We all know this. I would hope.

Besides, for us to be casting judgement here on others when we ourselves have MUCH to work on does not reflect well upon ourselves moreso than on the shown instruction from wkk.

Hung Gar itself comes in a variety of "ways" There are huge differences in the forms as given in various lineages from the big popular lineages with many students to the lesser known village lineages with few students.

The root is within all, regardless of the names of sets or masters.
All Hung practitioners are united as ONE FAMILY.

That is the truest thing about it.

peace

Kung Lek

[denali]

Kung Lek: While there are different applications for each move, often the simplest answer is the best answer. Sometimes the way someone interprets something could leave them open or may not be as effective as another interpretation. We can't say that all answers are equal just to make everyone feel good. . But if it works, then there's nothing wrong with it.

For the takedown, you could use the tiger claws i suppose, but you could also use your elbow and turn with your waist to trip the opponent over your leg. It all depends on what's happening..You could also use a push afterwards if the opponent resists your 'pull'.. Is this more what you were thinking MaFuYee? Hard to explain sometimes with words..

[WongFeHung]

try this on for size: take the double leopard strikes which follow and put the whole series together with a partner and voila! You have a form of chi-sao which can now be further broken down into single and double hand versions. Hung-Ga forms are not simply a bunch of techniques,but
a map for concepts, technique, hei-gung and training.