The last part of biu jee...

[Mr Punch]

The explanations don't add up.

What's it for? How do you do it in your (dare I say it... :rolleyes: :) ) lineage?

[stuartm]

Hi Mat,

I take it you mean the part wher you swing your arms beneath your legs and then quickly return them over your head.

There are varying explanations. We (Ip Ching / Ip Chun lineage)learn that this is to defend your head if you go the floor. The likelihood is nowadays, that you should somebody put you on the deck they are almost undoubtedly going to kick you in the head. By throwing your arms up alongside your head your at least have a chance of nullifying an attack.

Remember, Bil Jee is about recovering your centreline when it is lost, so this move is in keeping with that theory.

No doubt there are equally valid explanantions though which will follow. Be nice to hear other views.

All the best, Stuart

[kj]

Originally posted by Mat
The explanations don't add up.

What's it for? How do you do it in your (dare I say it... :rolleyes: :) ) lineage?

Recovery of balance, posture, stance, and positioning. YMMV.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Alpha Dog]

What about just lookin' good?

[yuanfen]

What about shovelling snow in Minneapolis?

[Mr Punch]

LOL

alpha: I can't get it to look good!


originally posted by stuartm
I take it you mean the part wher you swing your arms beneath your legs and then quickly return them over your head.

yep that's the one. i know your lineage very well, having started under sam kwok's organisation. but, how do you do this...? everyone seems to have a different take, even from the same lineage... ip chun's and ip ching's are different...! how low do you go? how far do you go between your legs? how do you throw your arms out? kiu sao? biu sao? how far do you sweep your arms and WHY?



... this is to defend your head if you go the floor. The likelihood is nowadays, that you should somebody put you on the deck they are almost undoubtedly going to kick you in the head. By throwing your arms up alongside your head your at least have a chance of nullifying an attack.

you don't 'go to the floor' in this move. not in the way that 'somebody should put you on the deck' at any rate. if you get put to the floor, you hit it hard, and you get a harder kicking... so by this token, and these dynamics, what attack are you going to nullify?



Remember, Bil Jee is about recovering your centreline when it is lost, so this move is in keeping with that theory.

so it's been said... i never lose my centreline when i practise form! to me it's just another set of principles. how do you lose your centreline when your head is forced down? regaining... oh wait... ;)...


kj
Recovery of balance, posture, stance, and positioning. YMMV.

this i can dig! so how are your legs? how are you regaining the root/dropping the centre of balance enough to recover with explosive enough energy (whoch you will need to cover at this time...)? what does YMMV mean?! in fact, how do you do this?


yuanfen
What about shovelling snow in Minneapolis?

do they get a lot of snow in minneapolis? it would need to be a big drift to get my hands in the right place...:rolleyes: so if they go that low in minneapolis, how low do they go in arizona :p ?

seriously (as alwaysish)... i've seen kwok sifu's, ting sifu's, di vigilio sifu's (not personally, but my sifu is from his lineage), ip chun sifu's... and they ALL seem... well... inexplicably, unrealistically impractical!

it's a simple question how (but please try to describe it anyway), but WHY...! i look forward to your answers as always.

[Frank Exchange]

Like most if not all of the moves in the forms, the movements refer to concepts, from which particular techniques can be derived. In my school, we are taught it is a concept about protecting your head when you are in a bad position.

This doesnt mean that you will follow the exact movement as done in the form, but the concept behind the movement. For example, you are crouching down, or are perhaps covering your head with your arms, or someone is raining down blows upon you, the concept teaches that it is important to clear a way by throwing the arms up BEFORE you raise your head to look or regain balance, as it is more important to protect your head than your arms.

Your mileage/lineage may vary.

Hey, I like that! Im gonna use it as my new sig!

[Mr Punch]

oh, come on frank...! do you really need an advanced concept in the advanced third form to teach you to cover your head and stand up when somebody's 'raining blows' down on you...!? i'm not taking the ****, i want to know... wing chun is very practical and realistic, so if you're practising techniques OR concepts that are useful for 'crouching down' why aren't we crouching down...?!

and same question: how low do you go? what kind of energy are you putting into your arms?

and btw, i think

BEFORE

would be a better quote for a sig...

!!!

maybe it's the zen in me!

[Sihing73]

Hello,

The forms provide a reference for various concepts. Sometimes the movements may not look EXACTLY like those in the forms. Sometimes they will.

The section you are referring to has more than one possible application. I will share one possibility and ask you to consider whether it could be valid from your frame of reference.

Consider those arts which will take advantage of you by grabbling your head and or neck. For example, wrestlers and Muay Thai fighters will sometimes grasp the neck and pull it downwards in an attempt to both destroy ones structure as well as pull the head into a strike, such as a knee. Now consider your head/neck is being pulled downwards. By applying the concept of the section in question you could drop your head and rotate it around to the outside of the arm doing the pulling. In addition you would use your hands to act as a guide to both pass the arm over your head as well as end up in a postion to counter the attack.

In essence someone pulls my head/neck. I drop my head and rotate it to the outisde. At the same time I use my hands to both protect against a lower knee or the like and pass the arm which is pulling me to the opposite side of my head. I use my arms to control and check the opponents arm and body. In addition I usually would want to step in very close to the opponent in order to maintain as much control and as close body contact as possible. In the ending position my head will rest on his shoulder and my shoulder will be placed in his under arm.

I am not saying this is the best nor only possibility. I am however providing one possible example to invoke thought.

Peace,

Dave

[kj]

Originally posted by Mat
this i can dig! so how are your legs?

Not too bad for an old broad; thanks for asking. Oh, maybe you meant, YJKYM. ;)


how are you regaining the root/dropping the centre of balance enough to recover with explosive enough energy (whoch you will need to cover at this time...)?

I don't automatically presume other people's conception of "explosive energy" is like mine. So there is a very good chance of talking past each other on this.

The "power" for me comes from recovery of the stance, posture, body unity and positioning. The kind of power I am interested in is a bit like that of a lamppost; the lamppost doesn't try to be powerful, but it's a worthy opponent when we are stupid enough to smash ourselves into it.


what does YMMV mean?!

Your mileage may vary.


in fact, how do you do this?

Yeah, like this will work in an internet chat forum, LOL. Better to see, feel, and do than talk. Against my better judgment ...

From YJKYM (yee jee kim yeung ma) bending/falling forward mainly from the waist, arms follow naturally, knuckes or fingertips dragging lightly on the floor to slightly between the feet. Not too far back, and don't stick your head between your legs, for heaven's sake. Maintain hips and knees as much as possible; as with all things, ability improves with practice over time. This is followed by recovery up and back, arms following up and back in concert with the body motion, completing a full and natural arc. The posture is intentionally allowed to flow a bit too far backward - thus the need for and practice of recovering forward to once again regain an upright posture. So this part of the set allows us to practice recovering our posture from both a position too far forward and too far back. The movement concludes in a proper, stable and upright YJKYM with mun sau. That's where the power comes from . ;)

Knees, hips, and the increasingly recovered portions of the posture contribute to the remainder of recovery throughout the movements. Rinse, lather and repeat three times. It isn't just a dictionary of techniques, concepts or specific applications but rather, like all our sets, it is actual practice and development of fundamental skills.

Head protection is not our primary concern in this section, though the degree to which it naturally occurs certainly isn't objectionable. It's more the tendency to maintain and recover the posture and the center in general. It's an important movement, but not a complicated one, IMHO.

Hope this makes at least a wee bit-o-sense. YMMV. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Shadowboxer]

That's one application I've seen. The thai fighters like to pull you into that knee. Brace your arms by placing your palms together and use your elbow to attack the incoming knee at the sensitive nerve cluster on the top of the thigh as many times as needed. The swinging of your arms up is to break the hold on the neck. Then regain the centerline with punches, if all else goes according to plan. Another application I've heard for the dropping of hands between the legs is to grab a leg of someone attacking from behind. Not sure about that one as I haven't seen it in use.

[kj]

P.S. Mat, FWIW, in our way of practice, we aren't concerned about placing the palms together, though elbow positioning is always a concern.
- kj

[kj]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
Another application I've heard for the dropping of hands between the legs is to grab a leg of someone attacking from behind. Not sure about that one as I haven't seen it in use.

They were teaching that application at a Preying Mantis Chin Na workshop I attended some time back. That and ten thousand other ways to tie your opponent into knots. ;)

Watching a whole lot of people trying to pull it off convinced me that it was sufficiently contrived and "forced" as to be virtually impractical. It might work a bit better for highly bendable people. :) The ones trying to execute the movement were almost invariable more vulnerable in doing so than their supposed "victims."

A good friend of mine taught me well to never say "never," yet it certainly isn't the preferred operating position for Wing Chun. YMMV.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Mat
The explanations don't add up.

What's it for? How do you do it in your (dare I say it... :rolleyes: :) ) lineage?
Everyone knows the "three bows to Buddha" are intended for the occasion when you drop your last three quarters for the trolley and need to recover them while keeping an eye out in the Castro district in San Francisco for Aloha Dog sneaking up behind.

Or, alternatively, you might consider what Kathy Jo wrote to be correct.

[anerlich]

Not too bad for an old broad; thanks for asking.

LOL, nice comeback.

Another application for the "dropping" maneouver is to foil an attempt at a rear bear hug, or duckunder/ go behind, etc. The movement can be performed with different energies; in this case the arms are thrust slightly forward and the hips thrust back, thus preventing an attempt to encircle an arm or arms and grip the waist, which if performed by a grappler will be very shortly followed by a hoist and drop, spinning takedown, suplex, etc.

The drop to grab the leg and then lift backwards (to takedown, kneebar) can work, as can grabbing the leg and going forward for a rolling kneebar, etc. As a good WC person "you should never get caught in that position" but reality has a way of interfering with even the most sophisticated theory. In this case, the energy is different, you are trying to pull the person in rather than pushe them back. In my experience this works better as a follow up to a failed hip toss rather than something you try when your opponent gets behind you, and is generally something for training on a mat rather than a first option on a hard surface. Still beggars can't be choosers.

We do not do the "backstroke" after the dip, i.e. swing the arms bvackward alternately when coming back up, but perform a snigle swing of both arms together, the arms lead the movement, not the head. I've herad this described as a type of breakfall, but IMO there are better ways to "engage the ground" if you have to go there.

Just another couple of possible applications.

[Alpha Dog]

In your dreams, Grendlehead!

[Frank Exchange]

>> oh, come on frank...! do you really need an advanced concept in the advanced third form to teach you to cover your head and stand up when somebody's 'raining blows' down on you...!? i'm not taking the ****, i want to know... wing chun is very practical and realistic, so if you're practising techniques OR concepts that are useful for 'crouching down' why aren't we crouching down...?! <<

I dont particularly see it as an "advanced" concept. Many of the movements and concepts in Bil Jee are not "advanced" as such, but are there to deal with less than ideal situations, perhaps when you've screwed up, perhaps not.

You are in a bad situation, and it would be "natural" to look up to see what is happening. The concept teaches that it is important to clear a pathway first before you look up, to protect your head. It happens occaisonally, and I have used it successfully in training.

That is the way my lineage explains it, as I said, yours may vary.

>> and btw, i think

BEFORE

would be a better quote for a sig...

!!!

maybe it's the zen in me!
<<

Sorry, dont get this at all. What are you suggesting I replace my sig with? "BEFORE"? :confused:

[yuanfen]

IMHO,What one can do with that motion depends on how much
kung fu one has developed from the forms upto that point.
If one only imitates the motion fewer applications will emerge.
Learning to sink properly is an important part of the motion.
Proper sinking and proper rising are inter-related in that motion.
That motion is a jewel.

[Mr Punch]

KJ, thanks very much for the excellent description. Everybody was kind of shirking the 'how do you do it?' part of the original question. I know it's difficult to explain, but I think it's quite necessary to be able to explain the applications/energy practised. OK, to know what you're doing and to be able to explain it well are two different things but that's why we're on the board isn't it? To find some common ground on which we can base our information exchange; or some very different ground to map out to each other... Anyway, thank you again.

Here's how we do it: Bend over trying to keep the ma as described. The bend comes from the waist, but trying not to have too much curvature in the lower back. The bend goes only to the waist, but the arms go a little further down (maybe to 45 degrees). At this point the butt is allowed to come out a bit naturally, so when you come back up you are really pushing down through your thigh muscles to straighten them out into the ma, pushing your pelvis forwards a little to lock in... but the lock should not (as usual) be too tight: it should retain a springy energy. More on this in a minute.

On the way down, we clap the hands together and loosely brace them, so the swing down is really lead by the hand-blades: the elbows are fairly empty. The energy comes back to the elbows at the bottom of the swing, so as the start of the ma recovery comes into play the elbows are already connecting directly to the stance, ready to shoot out into a double biu sao as you complete the recovery. The hands then come round in a big loose swing to complete the settling and rooting feeling, then clap together again to regain centreline.

I've had most of the applications described in this thread explained to me before, and have practised them... but the energy practised in this part of biu jee changes rather too radically with somebody else involved for me to be comfortable with it. And the fundamental skill set it is developing has to be able to be applied to a fighting technique... Hence my question.

So yes Joy, it does depend on your kung fu, but the kung fu should be put into practising the applications and the forms, and cultivating the energy, not into following wild goose chases as to the applicability. I can accept some of these applications, but to accept some others would compromise my understanding of the art as a whole... and yes, it'll be easy at this point for someone to chime in with 'maybe you're not ready for this bit' or something like that (it may be true! :eek: :D ) but it could just as well be another set of 'real' applications lost to time and a bunch of hokey stabs in the dark...! I've trained my way out of overanalysis, but I still think carefully and question deeply everything I am taught, especially if the application is not effective.

KJ

What would you say is leading in each part? Do you let your energy 'go' or change from parts of your body where it should normally be?

I only ask because, we lead with the hand-blade (sorry, don't know the correct chinese terminology - that's from Japanese) with the elbows being empty, then regain with the elbows whilst leading with the head. Our head comes up first, so the whole spine has exercised a ripple effect (like in some chikung). This helps the end of the recovery of the upright ma to settle the base of the spine in to reconnect the pelvis for that lamp-post you mentioned, for me. So the follow-through to the back is only a very slight move with the body, but a larger move with the arms, as though you have been pushed hard backwards when you raise up so you root through your ma and regain your upper body integrity by swinging the arms back to centreline. I can only describe the root at this point as being connected to the solid mass of energy at the base of the spine (the earth point) and having the springy rippling shock absorbent quality at the water point (the tanden).

Frank

I'm sorry, I was being a little unnecessarily ironic when I said 'advanced concept' and 'advanced form'. It's a fault of mine. I don't actually believe that any of wing chun techniques or forms are more advanced than any others. Only your knowledge and application of that knowledge can advance.

But what I was getting at with the crouching still stands as a question. Did you mean this only in relation to the clearing the way before/as you move your head up? Or were you saying the way you practise this move develops the energy/technique that would actually help with standing up/rooting/regaining your position from a crouch?

Anyway, I have a couple more questions, but it's late and I'm about to be in the doghouse with my gf, so for now I'll just rephrase my question a little:

Could you describe how the energy developed in this part of the form (what you empty/where you transfer) applies to fighting technique/principle?

If you don't have an answer, or don't want to answer this question, please just let this thread sink! :(

[kj]

Hi Mat.


Originally posted by Mat
KJ, thanks very much for the excellent description. Everybody was kind of shirking the 'how do you do it?' part of the original question. I know it's difficult to explain, but I think it's quite necessary to be able to explain the applications/energy practised. OK, to know what you're doing and to be able to explain it well are two different things but that's why we're on the board isn't it? To find some common ground on which we can base our information exchange; or some very different ground to map out to each other... Anyway, thank you again.


Written dialog is an artform in and of itself, and one I can't fathom mastering in this lifetime. Not to mention the time it takes, LOL.



Here's how we do it: Bend over trying to keep the ma as described. The bend comes from the waist, but trying not to have too much curvature in the lower back. The bend goes only to the waist, but the arms go a little further down (maybe to 45 degrees). At this point the butt is allowed to come out a bit naturally, so when you come back up you are really pushing down through your thigh muscles to straighten them out into the ma, pushing your pelvis forwards a little to lock in... but the lock should not (as usual) be too tight: it should retain a springy energy. More on this in a minute.


Sounds roughly about the same. I might chose slightly different subtleties in phrasing for our recovery ... where you say "pushing down through your thigh muscles" I might say something like "sinking and settling down into and through the knees." We too have a gentle hip tuck forward - "ting yu" - one of our five basic checkpoints.




On the way down, we clap the hands together and loosely brace them, so the swing down is really lead by the hand-blades: the elbows are fairly empty. The energy comes back to the elbows at the bottom of the swing, so as the start of the ma recovery comes into play the elbows are already connecting directly to the stance, ready to shoot out into a double biu sao as you complete the recovery. The hands then come round in a big loose swing to complete the settling and rooting feeling, then clap together again to regain centreline.


If I'm reading your description right, it sounds about right to me. We don't concern about clapping the hands together, but that seems a nit in the bigger picture here.




What would you say is leading in each part? Do you let your energy 'go' or change from parts of your body where it should normally be?


Sorry, I don't know that I understand the crux of the question. But assuming it's related to the following ...



I only ask because, we lead with the hand-blade (sorry, don't know the correct chinese terminology - that's from Japanese) with the elbows being empty, then regain with the elbows whilst leading with the head.


Yes, I can basically agree with this, at least as I'm reading it, including blade of the hand positioned forward and down on the down swing.



Our head comes up first, so the whole spine has exercised a ripple effect (like in some chikung). This helps the end of the recovery of the upright ma to settle the base of the spine in to reconnect the pelvis for that lamp-post you mentioned, for me.


If I'm reading this right, I think our rising mechanisms differ. My head doesn't lead everything else, and I don't feel any particular ripple effect (but that could just be me). Rather the entire spine unfolds and lengthens, vertebra by vertebra, with some impetus from re-settling into the stance. A Slinky comes slightly to mind here.

Of course, on my next round of corrections and refinements, there's a always a chance I'll perceive it differently, LOL.



So the follow-through to the back is only a very slight move with the body, but a larger move with the arms, as though you have been pushed hard backwards when you raise up so you root through your ma and regain your upper body integrity by swinging the arms back to centreline.


I am with you again on this part. The backward movement is much smaller relative to the forward one. As with virtually all things in Biu Tze, everything completes at the same moment - body and hands moving as a unit through time.



I can only describe the root at this point as being connected to the solid mass of energy at the base of the spine (the earth point) and having the springy rippling shock absorbent quality at the water point (the tanden).


Mostly I will feel it down and through the knee areas, but won't say dan tien isn't relevant (it is, though for us, in a more implicit than explicit manner of speaking).

The main point of departure, as reflected in some of these points of discussion, probably center around differences in our nominal stances. Where you describe "springiness," I might describe my own stance as settled and substantial. Or at least hoping it is. ;)

Thanks, Mat. While it's far from easy (at least for me), I commend your diligence and patience to work and write through the details on behalf of a dialog such as this.

Well, since we've nearly exhausted this one for the time being, who's up for describing the color blue? :D

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

I've had most of the applications described in this thread explained to me before, and have practised them... but the energy practised in this part of biu jee changes rather too radically with somebody else involved for me to be comfortable with it. And the fundamental skill set it is developing has to be able to be applied to a fighting technique... Hence my question.

So yes Joy, it does depend on your kung fu, but the kung fu should be put into practising the applications and the forms, and cultivating the energy, not into following wild goose chases as to the applicability. I can accept some of these applications, but to accept some others would compromise my understanding of the art as a whole... and yes, it'll be easy at this point for someone to chime in with 'maybe you're not ready for this bit' or something like that (it may be true! )
--------------------------------------Mat:
Could be true. Dont know. Havent met you yet. No offense,Biu jee takes energy development to a higher level than chum kiu.
Steady and continuous but surprising and overwhelming. "Applications" are not intellectual things-they merge with the proper energy development. Wild goose?/ hey- some wild gooses-geese are dangerous things. One wild goose that had my number asa kid- probably knew biu jee- would flip/flap on
to my back and peck away. Cooked him eventually.Anyway a seed of that last motion is in chum kiu where you have two low bongs. When you learn how to SINK with it without having your butt in the air you are in your way. Honest injun- I can think of a hundred very effective applications when the opportunity is there.It is easier to show
than describe. I think that KJ talked about descibing blue(?). You can give the wavelength of that partiucular color but--- you need the empirical correlation. Among other things that last dip has some anti grappling implications......:D

[Frank Exchange]

Mat,

>> Could you describe how the energy developed in this part of the form (what you empty/where you transfer) applies to fighting technique/principle? <<

I thought I did! :) We teach it as a concept for the reason stated above. I'm aware that others can and do get different things out of it, possibly far more than we do, and that's great. It's all down to interpretation, and simply put, WSL liked to interpret that section mostly as a concept for protecting your head. He may well have known or had other interpretations, but that is the one he emphasised to my instructor. We don't think of it in terms of energy emptying or transferring.

In terms of actual movement, again, I have to stress that it is the concept that is important, the emphasis we place on it is to ensure that the hands really do come up before the head comes up, the hands together until they are quite clear of the head, parting, sweeping down without to overt and wasteful a motion, into the "guard" position. The way we check it is by someone standing over and punching at the head whilst you do it. If you get hit in the face, you are doing it wrong.

In application, particularly during a heavy bout of chisao, where I may have come horrendously unstuck, and being pounded, head down in a corner or against a wall, the principle allows me to clear a brief path with my head protected so I can get out, regain my stance, and continue on better terms.

Thinking about it, I also used it in my now "infamous" fight when I was attacked by three 15 year old girls on a train. :rolleyes: They had surrounded me and were all punching and kicking, but I was able to clear a path which enabled me to get into a narrow section of corridoor in which I could contain the situation better, as they could only approach me one at a time.

BTW, since we were talking sigs earlier, I have to say I really loved your Silver quote. Bring it back! :)

[Mr Punch]

Thanks for the answer Frank.

You had answered the question!! :o Interesting that you don't really think of where the energy is in this one... so presumably from the ma through the elbows (terribly brief and innaccurate description, I know, of the basic wing chun energy but I'm in a hurry again!): business as usual, no fancy nonsense?

I find that way works very well when you do the application you described and the moving in and down to the Thai knees (that one saved my jaw in some heavy sparring!).

KJ, thanks for your post, informative and helpful as ever, I'll be back to take on blue later!

Joy, thank you too. Interesting what you said about the double low bong in chum kiu. Care to expand? BTW, I was trying to say I only don't buy some of the applications because I've tried them, not out of any intellectual concerns. that's why I'm interested in the different ways of expressing energy through this move, so... how it may be applied more effectively. So I understand the keeping the butt in thing too, but don't you let it out a bit to practise the recovery?