Lan Sao in Chum Kiu

[AndrewP]

Ok, I think I'll start a thread for the first time.

One Kuen Kuit states:

"Lon Sau in Chum Kiu is a forceful technique."

What I want to know is why and how? And in what applications? I have some of my ideas about it and what I was taught but I want to hear from the audience. What makes Lon Sau forceful? Why in Chum Kiu as opposed to SLT?

Thanks to all that respond.

AndrewP

[Mr Punch]

we implement the lan sau in ck as a slightly rising move with a sinking energy, so the weight is very much underside of the arm and in the elbow... we do this by turning the hand inward as we sink into our posture... this gives you the sensitivity to use it as an uprooting lan, or as a downward posture-crushing lan, depending on the situation. either way it's better implemented with a short step. ducks!

not quite sure about your question as to slt, but the lan saus in slt are still part of the development of the forward elbow energy and relaxed shoulders that you still need to be able to put your ck into practice...

maybe!:)

btw: don't know this kuen kit... do you have a direct translation or a transliteration?

[AndrewP]

Yeah, here is the kuen kuit.

I've seen in more than one place

Chum Kiu lan sau fot loang hoong
The lan sau of Chum Kiu is a powerful technique

[Tongue_of_Colibob]

The way i was tought, Lan sao is also a strike.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by AndrewP

What makes Lon Sau forceful? Why in Chum Kiu as opposed to SLT?

Sorry to answer a question with a question, but where do you find a Lan Sau in SLT?

In Chun Kiu, in turning, the Lan Sau is a strike, simultaneously defensive and offensive. What gives it it's "force" is the connection to the horse.

Regards,

[kj]

Originally posted by Grendel
Sorry to answer a question with a question, but where do you find a Lan Sau in SLT?

Not to butt in, but ... in the same section as the fak sau.



In Chun Kiu, in turning, the Lan Sau is a strike, simultaneously defensive and offensive. What gives it it's "force" is the connection to the horse.

Indeedy, and presuming there is a connection to and through the horse, of course. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Grendel]

Originally posted by kj

Not to butt in, but ... in the same section as the fak sau.

Indeedy, and presuming there is a connection to and through the horse, of course. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo
To the first comment: Double lan sau. How'd I forget? I omitted it in my hasty mental review. :)

To your second: Of course, of course. :)

Regards,

[Wingman]

There is a lan sao in SLT and in Chum Kiu. How are they different? I think the difference is their structure. The SLT structure and Chum Kiu structure are different. The SLT structure can be compared to a triangle; and the Chum Kiu structure can be compared to a cone. A cone is essentially a triangle which is rotated on its axis.

The Chum Kiu structure is actually 2 cones. The first cone is upright and the second cone is upside-down and is above the first cone. If you look at it, it looks like an hourglass. When you execute a lan sao in Chum Kiu, your upper and lower body turn in opposite directions. Going back to the cone analogy, the upper and lower cones turn in opposite directions when executing a Chum Kiu technique (not just lan sao). This is why Chum kiu techniques (not just lan sao) are forceful techniques compared to similar SLT techniques.

[kj]

Originally posted by Wingman
When you execute a lan sao in Chum Kiu, your upper and lower body turn in opposite directions.

Interesting. Mine doesn't do that. Instead, I work to keep upper and lower body unified.

If I'm reading right, it seems as if you're twisting from the waist. If so, what do you see as the reasoning and benefit behind it?

I admit I may be completely misunderstanding your description.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[AndrewP]

Ok. This is a great discussion for me. Now, what part of the lan sao do you strike with? Elbow, forearm, hand? Where does the energy end up when doing chum kiu? When I punch I release energy through the hand/knuckles. Where is the energy released if lan sao is a strike? The first application of lan sao when I was taught it was as a block of a shoulder strike when I was 5 months into wing chun. That was at a Fong seminar. I see applications of using the forearm at the opponent's neck if he tries a grab at that level, then using the other arm to punch. I can see using it as a supression of the opponent's arms. I can see it as an elbow strike in chum kiu using rotational force. I have used it at close range while using rotational forearms against a person's body to lift a person's structure to destabilize it. What is the principle of the lan sao motion? Speaking of which, are we on the same page when I refer to the lan sao motion. I have been taught that lan sao is around chest height, flat forearms which is rotated horizontally a bit where the palm is facing forward a bit. And finally, why does the chum kiu lan sao deserve its own kuen kuit? Is it that important?

I have put enough info out there to keep the discussion going a bit. Thanks for all the responses so far and for the future ones.

AndrewP

[Alpha Dog]

strike, defend.. the two-dimensional mind loose in a 3D world -- waste!

[Wingman]

Originally posted by kj


Interesting. Mine doesn't do that. Instead, I work to keep upper and lower body unified.

If I'm reading right, it seems as if you're twisting from the waist. If so, what do you see as the reasoning and benefit behind it?

I admit I may be completely misunderstanding your description.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Hi kj,

Thanks for asking. When I said the upper and lower body turn in opposite direction, I meant that the upper body turn in opposite direction in relation to the lower body. The lower body (stance) need not turn. Only the upper body does the turning.

What is the reasoning/benefit behind it? It would be like twisting a rubber band, then letting it go. The rubber band will unwind because of the release of potential energy acquired when twisting it. My apologies if the explanation is not so clear. Hope to hear from you soon.

regards,
Wingman

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Wingman

Thanks for asking. When I said the upper and lower body turn in opposite direction, I meant that the upper body turn in opposite direction in relation to the lower body. The lower body (stance) need not turn. Only the upper body does the turning.

What is the reasoning/benefit behind it? It would be like twisting a rubber band, then letting it go. The rubber band will unwind because of the release of potential energy acquired when twisting it. My apologies if the explanation is not so clear. Hope to hear from you soon.

Hi Wingman,

Don't you give up your structure when you do as you describe? How do you then maintain the connection between upper and lower body? Isn't what you describe just using upper body strength?

How does a small person do this against a bigger, stronger person?

Regards,

[stuartm]

Hi,

Larn Sau is defence agains the lap sau or pressure on your bong sau, If an opponent performs bong-lap on you, your hand being lap-ed should turn straight to larn sau and press forward using you biu ma. This will pin their strike and you can then punch over your larn or strike beneath it depending on how hi low you larn is.

If some body applies forward pressure on your bong you can change it to larn and step back, while delivering a front kick.

Cant see how larn is a strike, although it is definitely a forceful and positive technique.

Stuart

[Wingman]

Hi kj & Grendel,

Thank you for your questions. It made me think for a minute. I even did part of the Chum kiu form to check on the facts.:) I may have to eat some of my words here.:o

I think what opened a Pandora's box is my comment regarding the upper and lower body turning in opposite directions in relation to each other. When doing the lan sao in CK form, I found out that the upper body turns 90 degrees while the lower body only turns about 45 degrees. In relation to the upper body, the lower body is turning in the opposite direction (and vice versa). Do you do the same thing when turning in CK? The turning angle of the upper and lower body are not the same.

Does this mean that there is no connection or body unity between the upper and lower body? I believe that there is still body unity because the upper and lower body rotate on the same axis.

[Mr Punch]

Hi, serious hurry...

but maybe this'll help to clear it up...?

You are turning your upper body a greater number of degrees, but it is still going in the same direction as your lower... are you thinking of the opposing torque created by moving the lan so definitely outwards, and the chambering fuk so definitely inwards...? Your chambering hand is going the opposite way to the rest of your body and your other hand... I was taught to use this as a way of generating pulling energy, pulling your opponent onto your lan... to snap them like a twig... BWUHAHA... etc...

Or a splitting energy if you prefer, as one is pulling inwards and the other going outwards. If you emphasise the chambering hand more it certainly gives you the impression that in the whole move, your upper body is working the opposite way to your lower body...

Stuartm, this was shown to me as you described by my (Sam Kwok lineage) teacher. If you are lopped/pulled quickly, for just one example, your lan easily turns into an elbow strike, with the same crushing and sinking (or uprooting depending on your position) energy you need for your trap following almost immediately upon relaxation. Just a thought... maybe it helps... I've been shown both of those through your lineage... and the splitting energy I described above. My current (John di Virgillio lineage) teacher shows it almost exclusively with a striking energy.

[kj]

Originally posted by Wingman
I think what opened a Pandora's box is my comment regarding the upper and lower body turning in opposite directions in relation to each other. When doing the lan sao in CK form, I found out that the upper body turns 90 degrees while the lower body only turns about 45 degrees. In relation to the upper body, the lower body is turning in the opposite direction (and vice versa).

Thanks for clarifying. That's pretty much what I thought you meant, though I admit I did stumble a little over the turning in different directions part. :D

Under tutelage of some former teachers, I also used to do this kind of rubber band winding up to increase whipping or pulling power.


Do you do the same thing when turning in CK? The turning angle of the upper and lower body are not the same.

No, we don't do that. We keep upper and lower body together.


Does this mean that there is no connection or body unity between the upper and lower body? I believe that there is still body unity because the upper and lower body rotate on the same axis.

Depends what you mean by unity. As long as you aren't severed at the waist - like the magicians do, LOL - of course there is still unity in some sense. There is obviously soft tissue connection through muscle, tendons, ligaments, etc.

By our meaning, body unity would be sacrificed when knees/hips are in one direction, and shoulders/torso is facing elsewhere. Skeletal alignment is a key component.

From a geometric POV, body unity for us implies that a relationship is maintained between the various body elements. Knees, shoulders, and elbows are maintained in relation to each other; knees are maintained in relation to hips, hips with shoulders, etc. The head may turn on its axis to maintain direction with the opponent, but even in this we are careful not to disturb its balance. I admit this flavor of body unity is easier said than done, and requires arduous practice.

Without our kind of body unity and commensurate "settling" we could not produce our desired type of incidental but substantial force. Another, and perhaps ultimately more important reason for me to avoid waist turning, is that it makes me extremely vulnerable against sensitive or skilled opponents. Once they sense me turning at the waist, they won't dare allow me to recover, but rather oblige to "help me" continue to disconnect and unbalance myself further. Once the opponent controls my body structure and balance, I'm in trouble. Similarly, I can leverage this type of vulnerability on my opponents with great reliability, and except the occasional mammoth or Mack truck, regardless of their size and strength.

This is in practice of course. In reality, stuff happens. So that's why we also practice recovery. :)

Hope my attempt to explain isn't too muddled.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[stuartm]

Hi Mat,

As you are probably aware, I instruct for Sifu Kwok so our interpretations should be pretty similar.!!!

Regarding the larn sao as an elbow strike - this is commonly known as kwai jarng or pinning elbow and is a natural technique from larn sao. So if someone puts forward pressure on your larn (or bong) you can fold in and strike/trap with kwai jarng or even cup jarng if you have the correct distance and timing.

Best Wishes, Stuart

[kj]

Andrew, not sure what perspective you are most interested in. You asked some deserving questions.


Originally posted by AndrewP
Ok. This is a great discussion for me. Now, what part of the lan sao do you strike with? Elbow, forearm, hand?

In my case, the primary interest is forward (wrt me). The point or plane of connection or strike is through the ulna. Elbow drives, providing there is proper body structure and a good horse behind it of course. I confess my own is more effective in connecting and controlling than striking, but I know some people who can pack a stunning whollup with it, all controlling features maintained throughout.



Where does the energy end up when doing chum kiu?

If I understand your question (I may not) same as above; forward, forearm. Hopefully the energy ends up in the opponent. :D



When I punch I release energy through the hand/knuckles. Where is the energy released if lan sao is a strike? The first application of lan sao when I was taught it was as a block of a shoulder strike when I was 5 months into wing chun.


I try to refrain from common connotations of the word "block." Dit da jow is for the other guy. ;) Intercepting, "connecting" and redirecting I can more easily agree with.

I am not much for arguing against this application or that. However, it's my quirk that I tend to think and operate more conceptually, e.g., finding and controlling your center, rather than solutions through specific techniques. Maybe I'll grow out of it one day, LOL.



That was at a Fong seminar. I see applications of using the forearm at the opponent's neck if he tries a grab at that level, then using the other arm to punch. I can see using it as a supression of the opponent's arms. I can see it as an elbow strike in chum kiu using rotational force.


For me, I'd prefer to connect your structure, lead and control it, and upset you using lan sau and rotational force. My idea of it is not so much aiming for a sideways or elbow strike, though it could happen in the dynamics of the moment. This manner of application is where I have found that even I, the smaller weaker party, can impact my opponent in a profound and substantial way. I don't have any sense of it being powerful until I see the impact it has in upsetting my opponent.



I have used it at close range while using rotational forearms against a person's body to lift a person's structure to destabilize it.

That's closer to what I am describing, the caveat is that I'm not lifting, though my opponent may feel that way. Or they may simply feel off balanced or turned against their will.



What is the principle of the lan sao motion?


Same common core as other techniques, just a different arm position and transition. Still must be connected to and through the horse and stance, relaxed and settled posture, sensitivity without telegraphing, tensions or overcommitment, "heavy elbow" despite no mai jahng, lack of anticipation, forward intentionality, control of the center, etc. etc. etc. Like the other techniques, it's what's behind the lan sau that makes something of it.



Speaking of which, are we on the same page when I refer to the lan sao motion. I have been taught that lan sao is around chest height, flat forearms which is rotated horizontally a bit where the palm is facing forward a bit.


Chest level okay, no higher than shoulders. (Down, relaxed shoulders, that is.) Upper arm at 90 degrees relative to rib cage, forearm at 90 degrees relative to upper arm, creating a virtual rectangle. For me, palm is facing down, ulna side outward and forward; not as much twist of the forearm as in bong sau, though it's obviously not a static position either, and the forearm may indeed rotate in a dynamic encounter. Joints are cool. :cool:



And finally, why does the chum kiu lan sao deserve its own kuen kuit? Is it that important?


I am not familiar with that particular saying, other than on this forum. Probably just as well, since the lan sau from Siu Nim Tau is also powerful, LOL.

Having said that, from my current frame of reference, comparison between the "striking" application and the "controlling" application may be relevant though. My teacher can effectively strike forward with lan sau without the need to turn (as in Siu Nim Tau). Hoever, at my stage of development that is still difficult to achieve, moreover with consistency. Nonetheless, even wimpy l'il ol' me can create a surprisingly effective response when combining the complete lan sau structure (implying all body parts) with a stance turn while in connection with the opponent, as described above.



I have put enough info out there to keep the discussion going a bit. Thanks for all the responses so far and for the future ones.

I didn't presume the invitation was directed at me, though I hope the dialog kept your questions company for awhile. Maybe bumping you up on the forum page is worth something, at least.

As always, these are just some thoughts from my own perspective. You are going to tell us your thoughts on lan sau at some point, right? ;)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

The kuen kuit poetry deals with the whole art.
Then there are sayings that have emerged to assist in training specific things
like the lan sao.

[AndrewP]

KJ and everyone else I want to thank you for everything! It's wonderful to have this forum and discuss substantive things. 90% of what I have read on this tread I have heard or thought of. It's nice to know that there is some validation to some of my thinking and/or training.

I've recently had new lines of thought on the lan sao. I don't know about other lineages but in Fong's 2nd form you do the double lan sao and shift 3X and then biu sao. I wonder if that also can be like rotating the body in lan sao postion only to extend the arm at the end to whack somebody with the forearm. In my definition it's not a chop because the hand is not striking. A forearm smash would be a very powerful strike. That interpretation would satisfy the discussed kuen kuit. But then that would counter the conventional thinking of lan sao.

In Fong's online dictionary he has the following:

LàaHn sáo [hinder / hand, arm] - bar arm; see also: wàaHn làaHn.

AND

WàaHn làaHn [side(ways) / hinder] - bar arm; see also: làaHn sáo.

The hinder connotation can be easily part of the concept of sinking the bridge or seeking the bridge. Putting your bridge on your opponent's to hinder bridge movement. In the chum kiu lan sao it can be interpreted as your bridge is being violoated or at least the opponents hands are a little to close and you turn and put a lan sao out there to jam or hinder the opponent.

KJ, yes my invitation is open to all. Seeing your response I will say it is definitely directed towards you. :)

Yuanfen, do you have any other ideas how this kuen kuit might have emerged to train the lan sao specifically?

Other comments are invited.

AndrewP

[yuanfen]

Andrew P(since you asked): Lan sao can be a gentle motion or a forceful mention...
even without the follow up...if the body in motion is workinga as a unit. While in labelling verbally its a bar arm...in application it can
collapse the other persons hand formation and put him down as well- if the timing is right. Apart from developing timed applications in chi sao...repeatedly practicing the basic bong-lan section of chum kiu correctly should result in many insights.
The bong could be more yin while the lan more yang than the bong. Avoid tensing. Dont swing out.
One simple application -if the circumstances are right-

When someone throws a right---lop the bridge from the outside with your right... lan his elbow---break(possibly elbow and shoulder) and or put him, down face first into the ground. Hope the imagery is clear enough. Of course there is no such thing as an unstoppable motion in principle, so there are counters to that
lan combination.

[AndrewP]

Thanks Yuanfen. Hope to see you again in Arizona.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Wingman

I think what opened a Pandora's box is my comment regarding the upper and lower body turning in opposite directions in relation to each other. When doing the lan sao in CK form, I found out that the upper body turns 90 degrees while the lower body only turns about 45 degrees. In relation to the upper body, the lower body is turning in the opposite direction (and vice versa). Do you do the same thing when turning in CK? The turning angle of the upper and lower body are not the same.

Does this mean that there is no connection or body unity between the upper and lower body? I believe that there is still body unity because the upper and lower body rotate on the same axis.

Sorry, I'm lost. How is this opposite directions at all? It's still just different amounts in the same direction, no? :confused:

I get the second paragraph: unity is still retained cos it's all on the same axis... so how is it opposite directions???

It's dark out here...

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by kj
Hopefully the energy ends up in the opponent. :D


LOL for a long time! :D

[Wingman]

Sorry, I'm lost. How is this opposite directions at all? It's still just different amounts in the same direction, no?

Hi Mat,

The upper body turn a greater number of degrees than the lower body. Relative to the upper body, the lower turns in the opposite direction (and vice versa). That is in the upper body's point of view. I know it's confusing. You are not the only one who got confused.

Let's have an analogy. If there are 2 cars going at the same direction. The first is doing 20 mph, the second car doing 50 mph and is behind the first car. If you are in the first car, you'll think that the second car is approaching at 30 mph. But if you are in the second car, you'll think that the first car is coming to you at 30 mph. To an outside observer, the cars travel at the same direction but at different speeds.

Hope that helps.

[black and blue]

I can kinda see what you're saying, but that's still the most f*cked up definition I've ever heard :) :) :)

Lets just say the upper and lower body move in the same direction but one moves faster than the other. Simple. :) Fella, never become a teacher!!!

Duncan

[fa_jing]

I live near ya. Let's get together and Chi sao. I know a couple more applications of the lan sao that have not yet been emphasized in this thread, although they're not top secret or anything :). Send me a PM if you're interested.

-FJ

[EnterTheWhip]

Body unity does not literally mean that one's body moves as a unit. Turning at the waist does not necessarily imply imbalance nor body disunity. With a truly good root, the ability to turn your upper body separately (with oncoming force or not) is a gem.

[kj]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Body unity does not literally mean that one's body moves as a unit. Turning at the waist does not necessarily imply imbalance nor body disunity. With a truly good root, the ability to turn your upper body separately (with oncoming force or not) is a gem.

Within limits, I wouldn't argue that. Sometimes less is more.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by kj
Within limits, I wouldn't argue that.The root determines that limit.