FIRE HAWK
08-11-2001, 06:39 AM
Posted by Zay Wen on May 01, 19101 at 16:18:05:
In Reply to: Hey Zay Wen posted by Royal Dragon on April 30, 19101 at 13:28:59:
: Do you know anything about the Hakka?
First, I do not have time right now to do your questions on Taijiquan justice. My project work just got really wierd and if I type too much or look up too much of anything, I literally do not have time to practice for myself.
As for Hakka, my understanding is that they are also referred to as Visitors and were originally a Chinese ethnic group from northern China. They were displaced from their homeland area in one of the many wars way back when and since the winners keep the land and write the history books, they left.
They have tried to maintain an ethnic identity and can be found in many of China's geographic regions. Their language dialect is their own. Their mode of cooking has some parts that go back to their original homeland style but they also have incorporated cooking styles from many other regions.
In China, for good or bad, they are often treated none too well and in some areas have a reputation similar to gypsies in Europe. Whether or not this is deserved is not what I am saying so do not infer anything by this.
Memory fails me but I seem to recall that there are a one or two martial styles that have a strong Hakka influence...but would be hard pressed to remember which ones.
I do know that some of my favorite restaurants in San Francisco were Hakka....:)
Posted by Royal Dragon on May 01, 19101 at 18:13:40:
In Reply to: HAkka posted by Zay Wen on May 01, 19101 at 16:18:05:
Tai Tzu Quan and South Mantis.
Suposedly, during the Ming dynasty, the Chao Family (ruling family of the former Sung) was very active in the Ming's government. To the point, that when the Manchurian's took over, both the ruling family of the Sung and the Ming ran south together. In fact, you can see certain simalaritys between Tai Tzu's Southern division, and South Mantis. Grand Master Livingston strongly dissagrees with me on this, but when I went and cross trainned with a South Mantis Si Fu here in Chicago, they were doing both footwork and energy production methods right out of our [Tai Tzu's] first form.
I have heard that the arts of the Hakka are known collectvely as Hakka Quan. This system includes more that just Tai Tzu and South Mantis, but I'm not sure what. Also, they are not really an organised system of arts, but a scattered collections of lines practiced by various members of the hakka line. I am currently in contact with a Hakka descendant that is big into researching his history. He's suposedly getting me video on the Tai Tzu system from masters in Taiwan, Hong Kong and other places. I can't wait to see and compare this stuff to what I am doing.
Royal Dragon
Posted by Zay Wen on May 02, 19101 at 17:23:27:
In Reply to: The two styles are........ posted by Royal Dragon on May 01, 19101 at 18:13:40:
Not having looked into them too closely...(My own lineage in Taijiquan goes through Fu Zhongwen to Yang Chengfu for Yang, and other places for Sun and Wu...and then through other people for Zha Quan...)
I would expect one of two things to be true about a truly Hakka based style. Either it is totally their own and stemmed from their unique heritage and as such would tend to be more northern based
Or, in keeping with their cuisine, it would be an compilation of several regions and styles with a few cohesive points - this would be reminiscent of their travels all around China.
The only example of a Hakka based style I have seen, though, is a southern short range fist that was similar to Southern Mantis.
Posted by Royal Dragon on May 02, 19101 at 18:52:16:
In Reply to: Hakka styles posted by Zay Wen on May 02, 19101 at 17:23:27:
from what I understand, The Hakka arts are a mix of systems like thier language and cuisine. I base this on loose research, that is still on going. Tai Tzu is a Hakka art, as the Chao family were Hakka. Originally, Tai Tzu Quan was a norhtern style. Then later they developed the Southern division. It was shorter and more compact with more narrow footwork and shorter hand based strikes. But, when the Chao family ran south, the Northern system got blended with the Southern, and a hybred style emerged. Tai Tzu is now classified as a Northern and Southern Long Fist style, but you'd never know the Southern style is a long fist system by our first few forms. I am told, that the upper three forms are the Southern Long Fist. I'm waiting to see what they are when I learn them.
My guess, is that all hakka arts are like this, a blend of the original Northern arts they practiced and new Southern technology learned wile in hiding from the manchurians.
Royal Dragon
In Reply to: Hey Zay Wen posted by Royal Dragon on April 30, 19101 at 13:28:59:
: Do you know anything about the Hakka?
First, I do not have time right now to do your questions on Taijiquan justice. My project work just got really wierd and if I type too much or look up too much of anything, I literally do not have time to practice for myself.
As for Hakka, my understanding is that they are also referred to as Visitors and were originally a Chinese ethnic group from northern China. They were displaced from their homeland area in one of the many wars way back when and since the winners keep the land and write the history books, they left.
They have tried to maintain an ethnic identity and can be found in many of China's geographic regions. Their language dialect is their own. Their mode of cooking has some parts that go back to their original homeland style but they also have incorporated cooking styles from many other regions.
In China, for good or bad, they are often treated none too well and in some areas have a reputation similar to gypsies in Europe. Whether or not this is deserved is not what I am saying so do not infer anything by this.
Memory fails me but I seem to recall that there are a one or two martial styles that have a strong Hakka influence...but would be hard pressed to remember which ones.
I do know that some of my favorite restaurants in San Francisco were Hakka....:)
Posted by Royal Dragon on May 01, 19101 at 18:13:40:
In Reply to: HAkka posted by Zay Wen on May 01, 19101 at 16:18:05:
Tai Tzu Quan and South Mantis.
Suposedly, during the Ming dynasty, the Chao Family (ruling family of the former Sung) was very active in the Ming's government. To the point, that when the Manchurian's took over, both the ruling family of the Sung and the Ming ran south together. In fact, you can see certain simalaritys between Tai Tzu's Southern division, and South Mantis. Grand Master Livingston strongly dissagrees with me on this, but when I went and cross trainned with a South Mantis Si Fu here in Chicago, they were doing both footwork and energy production methods right out of our [Tai Tzu's] first form.
I have heard that the arts of the Hakka are known collectvely as Hakka Quan. This system includes more that just Tai Tzu and South Mantis, but I'm not sure what. Also, they are not really an organised system of arts, but a scattered collections of lines practiced by various members of the hakka line. I am currently in contact with a Hakka descendant that is big into researching his history. He's suposedly getting me video on the Tai Tzu system from masters in Taiwan, Hong Kong and other places. I can't wait to see and compare this stuff to what I am doing.
Royal Dragon
Posted by Zay Wen on May 02, 19101 at 17:23:27:
In Reply to: The two styles are........ posted by Royal Dragon on May 01, 19101 at 18:13:40:
Not having looked into them too closely...(My own lineage in Taijiquan goes through Fu Zhongwen to Yang Chengfu for Yang, and other places for Sun and Wu...and then through other people for Zha Quan...)
I would expect one of two things to be true about a truly Hakka based style. Either it is totally their own and stemmed from their unique heritage and as such would tend to be more northern based
Or, in keeping with their cuisine, it would be an compilation of several regions and styles with a few cohesive points - this would be reminiscent of their travels all around China.
The only example of a Hakka based style I have seen, though, is a southern short range fist that was similar to Southern Mantis.
Posted by Royal Dragon on May 02, 19101 at 18:52:16:
In Reply to: Hakka styles posted by Zay Wen on May 02, 19101 at 17:23:27:
from what I understand, The Hakka arts are a mix of systems like thier language and cuisine. I base this on loose research, that is still on going. Tai Tzu is a Hakka art, as the Chao family were Hakka. Originally, Tai Tzu Quan was a norhtern style. Then later they developed the Southern division. It was shorter and more compact with more narrow footwork and shorter hand based strikes. But, when the Chao family ran south, the Northern system got blended with the Southern, and a hybred style emerged. Tai Tzu is now classified as a Northern and Southern Long Fist style, but you'd never know the Southern style is a long fist system by our first few forms. I am told, that the upper three forms are the Southern Long Fist. I'm waiting to see what they are when I learn them.
My guess, is that all hakka arts are like this, a blend of the original Northern arts they practiced and new Southern technology learned wile in hiding from the manchurians.
Royal Dragon