Straight in or use the side door?

[David Jamieson]

From your own personla perspective, what do you find yourself doing more of in your attacking tactics?

Many of us in our practice of Chinese martial arts will attempt to get to the side door openings on our opponent but have difficulty in the speed of step required to gain this position.

Do you resort to the straight on attack when you fail to get to the other gates?

If so, do you find yourself relying on basic strikes and headstrong approach? Or do you insert yourself at the openings even when attacking head on?

What does your training path dictate you do to improve stepping speed to get to the side gates?

peace

[NPMantis]

I think it depends on the opponent, I tend to go via the side on most occasions but if I am much bigger or see a weakness I will attack via the front, some people lose composure if you do the unexpected and aggressively attack straight to the front - I think mind games play as important a part as strategy, if you show confidence your opponent may think differently of you giving you the advantage.

That's just my opinion anyway!

[SifuAbel]

Whatever door is open. Can't find a door? Open a window.

[KC Elbows]

I tend towards the side door. As far as stepping speed, we work the triangle footwork a huge amount at my school, and that seems to help a lot.

Now, if I go to the side door, and my opponent goes to reposition so that I'm attacking the front, I have a few tendencies. One is to rush in and get their lead leg in a log chin na and try to simultaneously break down their guard(the step for this is called "duck walk" or "duck step", and puts your lead leg against the inside of the shin on their lead leg-the hand technique tries to break down their guard at an opposite angle to the leg technique a la pa kua). The other tendency is to launch an offensive until I can find an opening to break their structure, varying targets in order to fluster their opponent.

Of course, sometimes all this works, and sometimes my opponent comes out on top, but that's the fun of it.

[The Willow Sword]

(in flaming gay voice) "well i like the back door personally":p

just kidding:D

Many respects,,The Willow Sword


in hsing i we attack straight in. and utilize pa kua to side step and then blitz in again.

[PLCrane]

Getting in on the side is easier if you can lure the other guy to attack first. If I have to attack, I'm more likely to send in a foot and a hand at the same time.
Almost everyone has more reach than I have, so I have to be careful to leave myself a way out when I go in. Sometimes I have to be satisfied with attacking his weapons when they get close.

[count]

The actual saying in Chinese translates, "if you think you can beat him, go in through the front door, if you think you can't, go in through the side door."

From my own perspective the side door is much safer but Able makes a good point.

[SifuAbel]

Thats Abel

[Royal Dragon]

I suck at going up the middle. For some reason I always get hooked in the head. However, I have fought some pretty experianced guys who could not stop me from going to the side entry, and OPENING locked doors at will.

Also, from the side you take one weapon out of range, and make the other akward to apply. That and it's easy to up root or use wide arching swings into the back of the head that would be badly telegraphed in a frotal assault.

Many people are taught to fight and dominate the centerline, I don't even play that game.

[Water Dragon]

Our school uses both. I tend to go with Front Door more as that is the emphasis of our school. It also fits in well with my personality.

We do a lot of Side Door as well though, and there's a lot of good stuff that comes from that. So even though I have my preference, I wouldn't discount anything.

[Royal Dragon]

"I wouldn't discount anything."

Yeah, this is how I feel too. A good example was last Saturday we were working on a Bagua like stepping type of footwork that gives you a side entry and is very similar to one of my favortie footworking patterns. On a number of occasions, I actually shorted it, jamed and went up the middle because instinct told me to do that. So in the end, I use whatever works the best at the moment reguardless of my personal preferance.


It's just like Abel said above:

" Whatever door is open. Can't find a door? Open a window. "

[TaoBoy]

I actually agree with Abel - if the front door is open use it. (And yes the side door is also an option.)

It depends not only on the opponent but also the situation.

[omegapoint]

"...Move! Get out the way! Get out the Way!! Get out the Way!!!"

[toxigenic]

When I spar, I'm very circular. Most people in my class are linear, so I've learned not to do that so I can throw them off. But I started sparring with tai chi, so circular is very comfortable for me.

[Braden]

Royal Dragon - If you don't mind elaborating, what was the bagua-like method you worked?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Braden
Royal Dragon - If you don't mind elaborating, what was the bagua-like method you worked?

It comes from Dr. Weh Chin Ni's Long Fist (I'm pretty sure)

We call it "King of All Side Moves", but we're also known for making up our own silly names; it may be called something else.

[Asia]

SCREW THE DOORS!!!! BULLDOSE THE WHOLE HOUSE!!!
:D

Personally I find the front door more fun.

[Braden]

So what's it like? :D

[Water Dragon]

Well, I doubt I'll be able to explain it correctly, but here goes:

If I'm left side forward on you, I'll use one of those funky Bagua kick back steps and put my left foot next to your right. Then I pivot and end up about 45 degrees to the side of and behind you.

[Helicopter]

It's very difficult to attack from side unless your opponent is moving forward, even then I find it difficult to time my move right.
If I'm fighting a counter-puncher it's all out assault straight thru the front gate, but the side door is always more desirable. My instructor's always telling me to move to the side more being smaller than most my sparring partners. I tend to like doing toe to toe too much.

{I was told to do baqua circling steps to facilitate getting round to the outdoor. Difficult to describe 'em. The outside of your lead foot follows the circumference of a large circle staying close to the floor and the following foot, well ..um...follows. (:( sorry I can't describe it better, hopefully RD can explain his footwork better.)}

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Helicopter
Difficult to describe 'em. The outside of your lead foot follows the circumference of a large circle staying close to the floor and the following foot, well ..um...follows. (:( sorry I can't describe it better

Makes perfect sense to me.

[Helicopter]

Sorry WD.
Cross posted, I'm not trying to cast aspersions about your descriptive abilities. :)

[Royal Dragon]

Except you don't do a full 180 turn.

Basically you walk the circle only one step and do the Bagua turn from the first palm change but stop it short instead of doing the full 180 and your feet aren't fully turned in because your not doing that full turn around.

It also lifts the lead foot first as a primer before you actualy walk the circle, that is why I say it is Bagua "like" as a opposed to the actual Bagua step itself.

A real Bagua player would skip that little lifitng step just before your circle.

I found myself doing the Bagua version out of habit about 60% of the time, including setting my feet for the full turn as opposed to cutting it short. I guess it's all that circle walking I did during the mid 90's. It's still with me.

[Braden]

I think I'm picturing it... it sounds like what we call an 'inside change'. If one were walking the circle with the outside foot forward, a 180o change of direction (and thus the active hand becoming passive and vice versa) is an inside change. Of course, when you take it off the circle, it becomes less angle of turn, like you describe. It's maybe the most basic bagua movement.

I'm not sure how you were walking the circle, or if I'm picturing what you're saying right, but in alot of bagua styles (including how I practice), you always move the lead foot first.

Of course, you have to use handwork as well to take the outside doors. It's a characteristic of bagua to use rising/drilling followed by overturning/falling to accomplish this.

One of the basics that we practice alot is very good for getting beside and behind someone, but the posture is very twisted on the inside if it's strong, so takes alot of "bagua conditioning" to do. It's based on a movement called 'flock of wild geese bursts out.' It is like the twisted circlewalking posture, only with the back of the arms facing the opponent, and the fingers pointing almost upwards. The energy of the arms rises and drills. It is done with the six harmonies, so if the left hand is dominant, the left foot extends, etc. Following this movement, the arms overturn (so the palms face forward) and press/fall to strike - thus forming the basic circlewalking posture. The tricky part is if you add a twist, as if you really were circlewalking, such that the rising/drilling left hand rotates left, but the extending left foot cross-steps to the right. Rooting in this posture and issuing power as you step through it (just as circlestepping, to slide to the back of the opponent) is quite tricky at first.

I like this move alot. It's practiced in every bagua form I've seen, as the last move in a palm change; to return the walker from facing outside the circle to circlewalking.

Another posture I really like is called 'fierce tiger leaps out' and it uses the back of the arm, with fingers pointing up, rising and drilling in the same manner. Only it is done as the active hand in a bowstance (six harmonies again). In many situations, it can scoop up, contacting the opponent from underneath with the back of the arm pointing up. Then if you enter deeply into your opponent with the foot, and use spiralling to rotate the arm into the fingers-pointing-up position as you shift into bowstance, you can close off your opponent's structure and take the side door this way. In the form, the other hand palm-heels forward; but it can be an elbow, or press the hip/scoop the leg for a shoulder stroke takedown, etc.

I suppose these are two ways of using the same sort of energy, one in a relatively yin and one in a relatively yang manner. They are two of my four favorite moves/ideas.

[Royal Dragon]

You have doen more Bagu that I, but it sounds like we are talking about the same thing.

My experiance was mostly circle walking with several different stepping methopds.
1. a toe to heel step
2. a heel to toe setp
3 a "Flat" step that is almost like a shuffel keeping the foot parallel to the ground.

I was taught several "palm changes" but not their names, only first, second,third etc

The one that stuck was the first as I did that one the most.

[fa_jing]

If they move forward, I step to the side and repostion. (triangle step). If they stand still, I move forward and engage through the front, then side step so that I am facing with my lead foot pointed to his chest, or if he's in the other stance so that we are chest to chest (squared up). Then I duke it out toe-to-toe. This strategy gets me in trouble when I'm engaging a stronger opponent.
-FJ