Should philosophy be taught in class?

[Former castleva]

Suddenly I saw the next thread right there!
And I believe it is not a meaningless one,let´s chat.
So...I´ll quote myself...what was it again? Oh yeah..
"Should philosophy be taught in class?"
These are some of the reasons why I believe it SHOULD:
1.Philosophy/mindset and common principles are what makes "martial" the martial art.
2.As student grows technically and learns new techniques,her/his "shen" or mind /spirit should grow together,trough training comes the resbonsibility.
3.To teach philosophy to give practical information on how to use the art´s methods in daily life (outside the dojo/gym/dojang/kwoon...)
4.To reflect a proper state of mind,besides a centered horse stance (therefore,be a good example for others)
5.To help each other grow and spread the art.
6.To understand the art.

After you...feel free to respond.
:)

[apoweyn]

Let me complicate the question a bit. Do you think that a specific philosophy needs to be taught? Something beyond 'Respect your classmates. Only fight if there are no alternatives. Etc.'

In other words, are you asking whether we should be teaching universal ideas and questions of conduct? Or a culturally specific philosophy?

The morality of using martial arts is not really culturally specific. Even something like wu wei (effortless effort) isn't really culturally specific. The term is, obviously. But not the idea.

So what, specifically, are you referring to?


Stuart B.

[The Willow Sword]

Yes.


Many Respects, The Willow Sword

[JusticeZero]

Yes, you should teach the philosophy associated and blended with the art because often, techniques will be tied to those philosophies in important ways. "Okay so we get around to this position and what does the philosophy suggest? To fall down and aha, there's the technique right out of there.."

[KC Elbows]

Philosophy:

SIFU: OK, here it is, the philosophy. Don't get hit, cause it will hurt.

STUDENT: Yes?

SIFU: And if you hit others, they will get hurt.

STUDENT: Yes?

SIFU: And if you fight, you will sometimes get hurt, and so will others.

STUDENT: Yes?

SIFU: And if you keep hurting others, you will get thrown in jail and will only be able to sleep with tatooed men for many years, which will also hurt.

STUDENT: Yes?

SIFU: Don't end up in jail. And be good to your momma.

STUDENT: That doesn't sound very asian.

SIFU: It does in chinese.

[apoweyn]

LOL

[ewallace]

SIFU: And if you have to move to kansas city, make sure you go to the missouri side.

STUDENT: Yes, but why?

SIFU: Because, the folks on the kansas side have excessive ear wax and project a constant foul aroma of something between sulfur and altoids.

STUDENT: Thank you sifu, I never could put a finger on that distinct aroma.

[KC Elbows]

I'd make a wity comment, but I'm gonna wait until my altoid is done.

[apoweyn]

okay, you two are the only thing keeping me in a good mood today. and for that, i thank you.


stuart b.

[KC Elbows]

STUDENT: Sifu, where did you learn this philosophy.

SIFU: Dr. Bonner's peppermint bubble bath.

STUDENT: That explains the smell. I thought you were from Kansas.

[guohuen]

LOL, that soap has hemp oil in it. Leave it alone if your being drug tested.

I tell people philosophy is like jars on a shelf. You can leave them there or take them down as needed.

P.S. Try the citrus sours altoids. Yum.

[SDriver]

I don't enjoy getting "philosophy" in martial arts settings because it often consists of inaccurate parroting of Asian belief systems. I'm reasonably sure that the teachers are getting something wrong. If they have not mastered how to get to the bathroom in the country of the philosophy's origins, I'm not sure I trust them on the nuances of the ethical system. I'm all for character building, but the people who babble about this stuff the most are generally guys who I would not trust to successfully change the oil in their own cars, much less master the shadings of belief of a foreign country.

What passes for "philosophy" in most schools is the philosophical equipment of meatball surgery. It's a bunch of mottos and catchphrases being misinterpreted by folks who in most cases do not speak the original language, do not understand the history and context of the philosophy, and have never been to the country of origin. To me, it's like passing around three-times-removed photocopies of a Goya and calling it an art lesson. I'll pass on the "philosophy."

[Kope]

A serious reply:

As a person with a graduate degree education in philosophy and theology I absolutely do not want to be hearing the parrotting of BAD philosophy in my MA classes.

If, however, my instructor happens to be a serious student of philosophy himself and is honestly trying to convey his beliefs and loves through his art, then I have no problem with it.

My Sifu happens to fit in the latter category. Far too many fit in the former.

In the CMAs, it is often the case that there are significant philosophical and historical reasons for many little things. Learning the reasons, and something of the philosophy that spurred the founders of the art to incorporate these little touches makes the experience more full and satisfying.

Moreover, and on a more personal level, I think a healthy understanding and appreciation of Tao is not a bad thing :)

[Former castleva]

OK,thanks everyone.
Various opinions,good to see them.
I think learning philosophy can be good.
It is probably often linked to actual "belief systems" of asian,and there´s little wrong about that.
I think though,that "wude"=martial morality can be expressed trough anyone with a "good heart" regardless of nation,culture,color,sex,social state etc.
Eastern religions probably had a major influence on arts,but as funny buddy Morihei Ueshiba (who was a deeply spiritual man) stated,that aikido is not a religion (no need to stick into "well,that´s aikido for...-)_-he said "aikido is budo" which universally means "martial arts are martial arts..." my humble translation.If you feel like it,you may also study the culture etc.
Basic "respect,righteous,patience" etc. I think,does not fall into a cultural category,necessarily.I agree though that some understanding of the surroundings won´t hurt.
I´m personally also interested in "local" art of medicine,language and culture,to a point.
And I believe all those western teachers are not completely ignorant about it either.
Well that´s for now,more replies will be appreciated.

[Shaolindynasty]

I agree western teachers aren't ignorant. I give some of my personal philosophy in class sometimes. I use my own personal ideas to get certain points across. I don't "parrot" philosophies though. It is my beleif that real philosophy is a personal thing that you yourself understand through your own experience etc. Not just repeating the words of some old book reprinted by shambala publications.

[TaoBoy]

As long as there is no particular religious focus. As long as there is no particular cultural focus. Martial philosophy should encompass all things and should be applicable to all students/situations.

(Boy, that was serious - we need more KC and EW input.)

[Serpent]

STUDENT: Master, fighting wooden dummies is one thing. This is totally different.

SIFU: No! No different! Only different in your mind. You must unlearn
what you have learned.

STUDENT: (focusing, quietly) All right, I'll give it a try.

SIFU: No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.

*STUDENT closes his eyes and concentrates, preparing to do battle against the BJJ black belt*

STUDENT: (panting heavily) I can't. He’s too big.

SIFU: Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hm?
Mmmm.

STUDENT shakes his head.

SIFU: And well you should not. For my ally is the Qi. And a
powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. It's energy
surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we...(SIFU pinches
STUDENT's shoulder)...not this crude matter. (a sweeping gesture) You must feel the Qi around you. (gesturing) Here, between you...me...the tree...the rock...everywhere! Yes, even between you and that Gracie student!

STUDENT: (discouraged) You want the impossible.

Quietly SIFU turns toward the BJJ student. With his eyes closed and his head bowed, he raises his arm and points at the student.

The BJJ student rushes in for takedowns and every time SIFU avoids him. Eventually, after toying with the BJJ student for some time, SIFU makes two quick strikes and the BJJ’er falls unconscious at SIFU’s feet.

STUDENT stares in astonishment as the fighter lies on the ground. He walks toward SIFU.

STUDENT: I don't...I don't believe it.

SIFU: That is why you fail.

STUDENT shakes his head, bewildered.

[Serpent]

I jing, therefore I am?

[Mr Punch]

LOL at the scripts! Thanks guys, one day I'll make a lot of money off those!!!:cool:

I'm with Kope among others.

My long-time aiki teacher would talk a lot sometimes, but he wouldn't spout a load of misremembered cliched Bruce Lee stuff nicked from the classics anyway. He is no philosophy student either: he just talks about applying his aiki principles, which he has refined and moulded to suit himself and his life to his daily life, which for the most part was working at the local car plant. Great stuff. No cheese, just a wealth of (mostly) relevant experience.

Don't get me wrong, Bruce Lee's stuff was great but stolen! Most of the time not even changed, and certainly not attributed to another source...

Too often:

TEACHER: As Bruce Lee would say...

MAT: ZZZZZ... (thinks now was that the Lao Tzu, or Mrs Beeton's Household Management? absent mindedly punches nearest student...)

I was recently vetting training partners for my private programme (actually, I wasn't really vetting them: I'll train with almost anyone), mostly heavy sparring with some drill exchange... and this guy mailed me back supposedly to arrange a time and place, and comes out with the classic 'I like to bring my philosophy into my fighting...' so I wrote back and said, 'OK, that's fine. I like to fight in my fighting.'. he vetted himself: never heard from him again... he did JKD... do you think it shows? :D

[omegapoint]

Are we talking philosophy philosophy, logic philosophy, or both? Do you mean Eastern or Western Philosophy? Other folks philosophy or one's own philosophy? Confucius philosophy, Daoist or Christian? The philosophy of selfishness and greed--see Ayn Rand?

Possibly the best philosophy to pass on, is the science of singular evaluation and it's relation to the whole. Give options, encourage intelligent discourse and help your students find THEIR own relevant philosophy on reality. No matter what people think, when living in a communal situation (society), there are some philosophies that best facilitate a group situation. Yeah, we should be able to believe what we want, but some ideas are just more conducive to uniting the human family rather than dividing it. The latter is rampant in the world for a reason.

Remember, divide and conquer... They still are and they just may!

[Former castleva]

Thanks for the posts.
I mean martial philosophy,method of thought that is linked to martial arts and martial arts as a way of life,living trough that philosophy (like basic mental principles of CMA)
And it is linked to general "parental" philosophy in a way or another.

[Tainan Mantis]

Serpent,
Are you aware that "the force" is translated as Qi in the Star Wars movies?

Should Philosophy be taught...

In Chinese this question would be incomprehensible to any of the kung fu teachers I have met.

There is no connection between this question and any sublime concepts of; Taoism, Buddhism, Confucinism. Nor does it tie into any morality that the teacher would want to explain.

In Taiwan at least, Taoism is a tough man's religion. The Gods are carried on chairs from one temple to another by members of the triad society(nice people, but you wouldn't want to owe them money).
This happens quite frequently and is followed by huge processions that make large amounts of noise.

When a god visits another temple, if he has the power, he enters someones body. That person does the MA dance and beats himself with a weapon of some sort. Usually producing blood for the onlookers.

Words like Taoism and Taoist are seldom used by people here. If they believe in a god then they burn money for him in front of their house.
McDonalds, at least some, have taken up this custom and also burn money in front of their store on special occasions.

If you talk about Buddhism, it is not philosophy, but religion.

So where does the philosophy come in?

The different schools have related forms of protocal. Such as...
-How we treat the teacher.
-What we do for him on what holidays.
- How we present the red envelope.
-How we can drink in public with the teacher. At a social gathering no one can take a drink without toasting or being toasted.
-for fighting. Who can we challenge. There may be some considerations since many schools are related to each other.

[Merryprankster]

If I ever have to sit through "life according to the instructor/style," and I'm supposed to be in an MA class, I'm never coming back.

[Former castleva]

Thanks once again.
I´m personally not religious in any way.
In that case you can pick a thing or two from religion(s) which may apply to everyday life without any religious activity.
But that´s just me.

[David Jamieson]

Principles drive form, function and execution.

Principles must be explained to and understood by a student to properly perform the function of the martial art.

philosophy on the other hand is often subject to interpretation.

same as religious doctrine.

It often doesn't apply to the practice at hand and I think although SDriver made a bit of a harsh point, there is truth in what is said.

People have a tendency to put there own spin on philosophy and have their own ideas about right and wrong, ethics and morals.
Personally, I don't agree with everyone elses ethics or morals and have codifications and interpretations of my own garnered through life experience that will conflict with others views simply because they have different experiences than I do.

So, principles that can be applied within the art? YES!

Personal philosophies of the schools instructor? Don't know about that, I suppose on some things you may agree and others you will not. In the end, if "not agree" outweighs "agree", you will have personality conflict and thus your relationship with the art and the teacher of it may end from that perspective.

You always have the option of finding another teacher who will not put you in a position where you must agree with his philosophical offerings. Or you can find a teacher who will teach with philosophical offerings more in line with your own.

In the end, the martial arts can be taught driven by principles and common sense in what is an acceptable way to treat each other if you don't know that by the law of the land you live in already.

But should you become a taoist to learn a martial art? No, a buddhist? No. A Freudian or Jungian? Thomas Mann perhaps? No.

peace

[Former castleva]

Thanks.
Nice to get replies from moderator(s) too,rather rare.
:)

[Shaolindynasty]

My bad I meant I tell about principles. Ya'know the word philosophy means "love of knowledge" I think you have to love knowledge to be a true martial artist. Oh you have to love skill and art to.