Bak Hok Pai

[friday]

Hi all of you Kung Fu enthusiasts reading this forum. I think its time we got back to discussing what we are interested in talking about rather than being distracted by that ...nutcase.
I also ask that from now on we should all just ignore him/her/it.

First of all, I am really happy that people practicing the different streams that have developed from Lion's Roar are discussing topics here. One thing that saddens me is the secrecy with which many styles are protected. Whether for political reasons, personal gain, and genuine reasons for the need of secrecy this has probably meant that many kung fu styles may have lost bits and pieces or ...developed. Anyway, this is a great place for us all to chat about kung fu and tibetan MA.

One of the topics that particularly interested me is developing the ability to apply your kung fu. If you are preparing for a fight or really wish to learn skills and be able to apply them for a real fighting, self-defence situation I think you really have to have specific training for it. two man drills, circle training will only help prepare you to a degree. Having many street fights would help a great deal but probably isn't the safest training method.

Also a point to note for the Kung Fu people here. Training more helps improve your techniques forms etc. The sad thing is that the more you train the more likely you are to sustain injuries etc. You have to balance out the training that you do. For e.g. something like this...one day you might spend your training session working on techniques, forms. the next day work on weights, and fitness, etc. I think the safer way to train is to alternate between different types of exercise and training throughout the week.

I spent a period of time training everyday, sometimes for up to 6 hours with rest periods throughout. Not having given myself enough rest, and alternating training exercises etc, I ended up wearing myself out. joints started to ache, etc. Don't get me wrong, by the end of this 2-3 month period, my form work was really good. movements felt natural, my sense of chi had developed. But afterwards I rested for a long period to recover and was plagued with a knee problem. The lesson here is not to just train hard but to train smart. nevertheless, to a varying degree depending on the individual and their purposes from learning kung fu injuries will occur and the proper medical treatment should be sought.

anyway tell me what you think?

888

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

"First of all, I am really happy that people practicing the different streams that have developed from Lion's Roar are discussing topics here."

That what the forum is for! We're all celebrating your happiness

"One thing that saddens me is the secrecy with which many styles are protected. Whether for political reasons, personal gain, and genuine reasons for the need of secrecy this has probably meant that many kung fu styles may have lost bits and pieces or ...developed. Anyway, this is a great place for us all to chat about kung fu and tibetan MA."

The thing is Friday, it is an inherent charcteristic of Pak Hok Pai to be b1tchy to one another. Just speak to your sifu or senior students and they'll b1tch. You're from Australia right? Do you have Pak Hok there? The school that i've been to the US was like that and didn't teach practical fighting applications and the people behaved that way. Maybe that's why my opinion of Pak Hok has been distorted by this experience.

"One of the topics that particularly interested me is developing the ability to apply your kung fu. If you are preparing for a fight or really wish to learn skills and be able to apply them for a real fighting, self-defence situation I think you really have to have specific training for it. two man drills, circle training will only help prepare you to a degree."

I've found that the 2 men training in Pak Hok and especially the ciurcle trainnig is a load of crap. It is all preorcharsted. Obviously you're a smart person to know that it doesn't prepare ypu well for a fight.

"Having many street fights would help a great deal but probably isn't the safest training method."

Street fights are the real deal, not a preparation for something else. Don't get yourslef confused there. Being a newbie on this forum, you may have already tried to talk too much and tripped over your line of arguement.

"Also a point to note for the Kung Fu people here. Training more helps improve your techniques forms etc."

You're so smart.

"The sad thing is that the more you train the more likely you are to sustain injuries etc. You have to balance out the training that you do."

That's because these people don't train in a safe way. Sure martial arts is a contact activity and would result in certain injuries from time to time. Jusatr take the commonsense approach. No need to be sad.

"I think the safer way to train is to alternate between different types of exercise and training throughout the week."

Like martial arts and weights in your previous example. Sorry I don't mean to laugh. Maybe you shouldn't train so hard in pak Hok - won't make you a better fighter anyway.

"I spent a period of time training everyday, sometimes for up to 6 hours with rest periods throughout."

Is training pak hok your full time job. I think your training method is crap, to have to train so many hours. Or perhaps you like repetition. Some slow learners do, but I don't think you're slow as you've made a nubeer of very insightful comments.

"Not having given myself enough rest, and alternating training exercises etc, I ended up wearing myself out. joints started to ache, etc. Don't get me wrong, by the end of this 2-3 month period, my form work was really good."

I don't see how you can perform the forms well when your joints are aching. Is this the famous Pak Hok Paradox?

"movements felt natural, my sense of chi had developed."

It is not natural to have aching joints.

"But afterwards I rested for a long period to recover and was plagued with a knee problem. The lesson here is not to just train hard but to train smart."

Alright, most people would have figured this out without going through such a painful lesson. How long were you at this for? Have you since quite pak hok and moved on to a Northern kung fu system?

"nevertheless, to a varying degree depending on the individual and their purposes from learning kung fu injuries will occur and the proper medical treatment should be sought."

If pain persist see a doctor!


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[friday]

you poor creature...I can see you have a lot of pent up bitterness and frustrations inside...I feel very sorry for you.

I hope you eventually get better.

Take your own advice...if pain persists, see a doctor :)

888

[dunbarj01]

Hi Friday,

Do you know a gentleman by the name of Peter Kuo??

Cheers,

[HopGar]

Hi friday
I'm in Hop Gar Kung Fu under Sifu Ku Chi Wai. If ya read the ineage of my branch of the system of webpage is www.hopgar.com (http://www.hopgar.com)

True,that all of the drills dont prepare you totally, but if you do them along with sparring, and a couple fist fights - I think you'll do pretty well when you should ever need to use it.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[diego]

since i started to ponder how to make my kung fu kung fu and not kickboxing

the two scraps i didnt intend and they were based
on some1 i knew but didnt expect.
on the kf forum theres a post talking about freezing in combat "just the whole wtf is going on"
the second time the person was basicaly drunk and i found myself consciously talking to myself
;jiminy crickets all dont hit him-try to submit and calm him down"

now related to khong and fridays post
it wouldnt be to healthy to engage in streetfights---but to get past certain barriers'such as freezing,one would need somesort of psychological training---any ideas on that from modern day science of warfare perspective.
also any of you guys who can trace thier lineage back in the tibetan related arts,do you have any tips on these thoughts from the ancients.

[friday]

Yes I know Sifu Peter Kuo, he has a mo guan in chinatown above the restaurant.

Also he has a sihing in Campbelltown whose student Mr Joce Santa Maria.

what relationship are you with them?

888

[friday]

Hi Kong, I agree that circle training, two man drills help in preparation and the perfection of techniques.
nevertheless they are limited in that like Ego said they are preorchestrated. Still I have learnt something from these training methods and believe that there are benefits.
I like what a group of Wing Chun people do in the US. set up a relationship with tae kwon do fighters and do some sparrring together.
by the way
may i ask you whether you have learnt any forms following hop gar kuen in the US? hop gar forms not shaolin. With the death of Ng yim Ming do you think some of Hop Gar Kuen was lost? Do you know of any other branches who teach Hop Gar?

888

[friday]

your comments remind me of what my sifu has said many times before. Kung Fu is a long term martial arts in terms of capability. You have to train and condition yourself such that moves become spontaneous during a fight. If you have to think about what move, or technique you need next I think you are in trouble. It probably then degenerates to a kickboxing like match.
the good thing about boxing, wing chun, kickboxing is that in some ways ( and i m sure i should expect a barrage of criticism for saying this) it is simpler. fewer techniques is an advantage sometimes.
Sifu also told me although my form work was really good, I would require special training for fighting. conditioning exercises, which is what I have done in Australia. (my other sifu is in Hong Kong).
for me kung fu without its combat application is lacking something...just as internal without external.

888

[friday]

also by the way...my comment on Kung Fu, martial arts and injuries, was a comment I made from my personal experience training fulltime in HK during my holidays (hahaha i know crazy, anyway it was fun) and from my chats with a few friends of mine, one who is about to become a qualified sports therapist who trains in WuShu and his sifu who came from old school kung fu academy in China and won number 1 Praying Mantis in that Chinese Kung Fu tournament/competition. ( I think the one Jet Li has won many times before).

888

[friday]

hi diego,

if you would like I will ask my sifus in Pak Hok Pai this question and see what they think.

I can't guarantee this is 'traditional methods'though. :)

888

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Friday,

You seem to enjoy your kung fu even traing full time in Hong Kong on your vacation. i know I'll be doing other things!

You're right - form work does not translate to good fighting. It is a learning tool - important but nevertheless - a learning tool.

Don't take this as a critism - but you (and many people on the forum tend to say) "..... not like kick boxing etc...." Well I see kick boxing as kung fu in a combat situation bound by rules. If you compete in situations that require wrestling then it probably becomes like BJJ or NHB type of contest. If you take away the legs then it'll be like boxing.

Those practitoners in these sports can be very good atheletes but they fight the way they do because of the rules.

If your kung fu starts to look like kickboxing it may be because the situation dictates. Anyway fighting is suppose to be messy, who wouldn't want to start & end a fight with a knock out punch.

How do you find Pak Hok in Australia? I'm surprised it's found its way to your part of the world!


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[diego]

khong you need to respectfully pick at your teacher for whats the deal with hop ga and ng-ming.
Friday i have a strange art that in some way claims ng-yim-ming
basically it is kajukenbo/hopgar with mantis and what i hear some internal style concepts but im not to clear yet...
do you have or could you ask your seniors if they have any storys or detials on fellows who have mixed thier tibetan art with another..

im in a funny predicament, i have home video of the 13 sets and i know 6 of them with a good idea of the rest...when i was taught it was all aplication but i got the gist of the system because thier is no basics in this method its all to the point killing technique..
i contacted the senior who inherited the art from his friend and teacher,but the teacher was killed
and i was shown more then i should have been in respects to time spent in chronological skill development.....so im not a authority but i have a good idea........I THINK
i definatly understand the combat mind and the differance between a rush of fear adrenaline and anger adrenaline,wich helps greatly in the inhale/exhale of your methods...
just a little question and bio.

ego you have A and thats A odea what your are thinking but you have this tone of cynicism however unconscious,it seems your point is to get fellow posters riled up and not simply to use the greek philosophy method of arguement to build further discourse uno break through certain personall barriers to bring out the light
imo not very humble you seem bored on this board.
ENJOY YOUR WAFFLES.

[Barefoot Mantis]

diego,

A British Si-Fu, Steve Richards has published a book on a combined Hop-Gar Mantis System:

Hop-Gar Mantis Kung Fu
Published by Paul H Crompton
London UK

Publishers e-mail CROMPTONPH@aol.com (for details).

It is Jook-Lum SPM with a branch of Hop-Gar deriving from Chan-Fat-Fu who is well known in HK for his Choy-Lay-Fut. Chan was a personal friend of Harry Ng-Yim-Ming and is a friend also of GM Ku-Chi-Wai.

Chan's forms are different to those found in most other branches they include: Sei-Lo-Fun-Dar (Four Way Separate Attack), Tau-Dar (Stealing the Attack) and Wai-Tor Luk-Lo (The Six Ways of Abbot Wai-Tor).

Chan keeps his 'Lion's Roar' as he calls it to himself these days but in the early 1970's a student of his Lau-Char-Chu who was the Self-Defence instructor to the High Security Stanley Prison Staff in HK taught it openly.

GM Ku has seen Steve Richards on video and commented that he can see some Choy-Lay-Fut influences in it. maybe that's to be expected.

Steve is writing another book, published by New Breed in the UK called 'Tibetan Kung-Fu: the Lion's Roar'. It's due out next year sometime I think.

[diego]

one of the techniques that best exemplifies:

agianst r punch,
sidestep to the left in a left side facing adduction stance"l mantis stance,r heel up"
right grab and left claw to face.
the left hand hooks opponents right arm and wipes to the left while the right foot steps into the right then the left foot triangle shuffle steps to the left in a right crane stance and the l hand flings back while the right straight punches the solar plexus......."JUST BASIC GRAB STRIKE SIDESTEP-SHUFFLE'IN WIPE AWAY AND STRIKE.

[diego]

do you have any keywords i did a quick 2minute search on altavista,typed in sifu steve richards and chan-fat-fu and got to many sifu names..

can you think of related links,they must have students who built thier own private pages.

[dunbarj01]

Hi Friday,

Just curious - I don't know Sifu Peter Kuo personally. I remember watching him and his students in Chinatown performing Lion Dancing. It was quite entertaining. At one point they were dancing out the front of an Omiyage shop and he convinced the shop keeper (a Chinese woman in her 30's)to let them use a Ming-dynasty style vase (about 2-3 feet high) to grab the red packet. It was quite amusing to watch when the lions head jumped onto the vase the woman nearly freaked out. She looked pretty relieved when they finished. :D

Cheers

[diego]

the left mantis stance is r toe up.

have you heard the name alexander"kaido"pollintain
he started teaching the art in 72??
died about 15 years later.
i wonder if its the same method?

[Gum Gong]

Hi guys,
I practice T.White Crane And Hop Gar.Hey Kong Zi Wu do you guys ever practice Tin Sin Choi Yam drill with in/out steps?I been doing some intensive training in Hop Gar and would like to talk with you.My teacher got his Hop Gar from GM Ku Chi Wai a couple of years ago so it's the same stuff your doing.I know all the drills and have been shown all of the kuens but one,so we could have a good sharing session.

Friday,I too spent a lot of time training every day,but only for 2 hours a day,and that seemed to work well for me.I never got injured but I guess it's because I was lucky.I think the trick is listening to your body.If you start to train and you just can't get warmed up no matter what you do you had better have a light training session or else your setting yourself up for a sprain or a pulled muscle.

We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet
our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass
away.

[diego]

is if those willing could share the gist of thier fighting methods,based on the old lions roar principle sayings.....wich i dont know.

i would be willing to take the most signifying aspects of my techniques and post online....

i mean its know big deal its just text, i feel it would create continuos historical discussion;
wich we all can agree its hard to find open info on lions roar'related.

so i'l start with a basic i notice the major method in my style is to evade/stun-set off balance and knock-out....like the tech i described in my other post..a simple variation of that would be to sidestep to your left and r outward grab and r sidekick to shin or knee--r steps into opp in a r horse and l presses shoulder and r 2bigknuckles to temple. we use that alot the drop into horse and smother shoulder and temple or back of head shot.

maybe we could share competition training,relatable endurance conditioning drills etc,all to build further discourse in this forum..get all the tibets out the woodwork.

although as of now im teacherless until i can get to montreal,i have a good idea of the fighting strategie. for the hop frame

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hi diego,

Which style friend? The one you mention no.. the combined Hop-Mantis yep, train it with my Si-Fu and brothers.

Very interested to hear more from you.

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hey diego!

Go to mantis.org.uk and link up to books, it's reviewed there. Also, the UK martial arts magazine COMBAT reviewed it in November 2000. It's on Amazon (UK) too, with a review.
mantis.org.uk has info on Steve Richards and his Tong-Long lineage. You can try the UK 'Iron Ox' mantis site too, that has info on Si-Fu Richards.

Si-Fu Richards teaches both styles together, but also as separate teachings.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

how could you guys train for hours each day. Don't you get bored doing Jins and the other basic punches. The style is meant to be repeatitive for southerners who were mainly farmers and peasants.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[diego]

were speakn on tibetan arts and most the arts when i look at what i learnt would have been used by bodygaurds......thats a good post

any of you guys have info on the lama bodygaurds
i red they were in range of over 6 feet tall in general they would shave half thier head and let the other side pony tail,i think they were like a class in tibet society...probably almost similar to a pirate/samurai

any idea's


EGO WATCH OUT YOUS'E BOUT TO GET BANNED....

[diego]

and were heavy drinkers??? with knives stashed all throughout thier sash.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Diego,

Lama bodyguards are ancestors of the Dali Lama. They are generally hired by those who can't afford to hire Northern Stylist body guards.

Lama body guards are also very fierce and would be the first to venture into the dark alley with arms swinging. Their war cry consit of Jin! Pow! Chow! which they repeat over their life time of repetitive traning.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[diego]

hey barefoot i couldnt find any pictures but the book asap,hehe

i was watching home video of the main guy of my style and the second and first form i remarked heavily reminds me of the pheonix eye book of the hakka uno the book i cant remember the title its new uno..

ya like when we learn its very low stance
"""do you know kajukenbo,or any idea!!""
from the kaju it makes the hopga attitude put into the midrange from the kaju,wich is original kenpo hawaii ghettoe fighting big american service men & samoans---so its very much the attitude of a hunga/bak mei from what i can see.....;all in the mid range""ive been up all night""
so we learn the stances low always in form,
but in midrange we sit in horse and do 2-3 single hand rolling techniques,sometimes if u hammer the groin before dragon claw to face both from the lead hand you can rear palm or flick the face.INBETWEEN EACH SEGMENT'BUT U ALOT WE DO MOMENTUM SNAP/FLOWS'LIKE SPEAR THE ARMPIT THEN RIDGE STRIKE SIDE OF HEAD THEN ROLL BACKFIST TO GRILL ALL WITH SLIGHT SHUFFLE STEP,ETC......"""NICE LITTLE CODES SPECIALLY TAILOR MADE FOR EGO'S ILK//HEHE"""


IN THE VIDEO HES WEAARING 70S JEANS AND COWBOY BOOTS WITH A LEATHER JACKET AND THE SECOND set is 8 sections of 8 attackers from each flank and infront all above you....doesnt really get into the pakua steps until the 7th set...

so hes all upright in a light horse! it reminded me off hakka...

but im sure thier differant because he was raised in the phillippines and mastered those particular famous methods so thier is alot of slight angulation on the inside game

hope this makes sence i'm off to sleep


EGO FORREALL U GONNA GET BANNED
WE BE HAVING CONFERANCES ON YOUR INADEQUECY....

2 MORE VOTES YA OUTIE CAPEESH!!!!!!?.,
S

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Diego

"freakin ego making me forget my purpose"

Your purpose in life is to provide me with amusement. I have a hamster who does just that. You'll probably get on well with it.

What's this voting thing your talking about. Can I vote? I'm also a member.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[diego]

KISSES

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

yes deep down i know you love me.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[HopGar]

Sorry, I didnt respond quickly enough. I just came home from Israel. Anyhow, I agree for the most part with everyones points here. If everyone could do me a favor and translate the chinese terminology a bit I would appreciate it b/c my Sifu uses mustly english or he speaks too quickly in Chinese to name the technique so it is impossible to know what these terms mean. I'll respond to the actualy posts some other time.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[friday]

Hi Diego,

The questions about traditional training methods and combining of tibetan MA with other styles will have to wait for a while ie. wait till i have time to make a IDD phone call to speak with my sifu.

But its great how this topic has got us all started again on Tibetan MA.

One interesting idea that I would like us all to get into is keeping in contact with each other and later starting up a network of all Tibetan related MA. As the current students of Pak Hok Pai, Hop Gar, Lama Kung Fu etc...we could be sifus of tomorrow ;) hahaha comn guys just bear with me on this idea. I think it would be sensational for us to exchange ideas one day organise tournaments, conferences etc. I like this idea rather than letting the original lions roar continue its divide into separate lineages.

tell me what you think. If you all like the idea.
I might start collecting email addresses off u.

:)
Sifu Peter Kuo and his students are pretty good lion dancers. ahhh its almost august moon...i think they will be lion dancing again later this month.

888

[friday]

I recall visting the canadian white crane site. from there it said that Kwong Bu Fu was the jerng muen yun (successor of Pak Hok from Ng Siu Zhong).
apparently Vincent Chow has inherited this title.
Unfortunately, I think this claim needs some further clarification.
From what I have been told, Kwong Bu Fu received a document signed by Ng Siu Zhong. This document authorised him to teach Pak Hok kung fu to other people. But it is not a document passing on the title of Jerng muen yun. In particular Pak Hok Pai has a small idol which is to be passed onto the successor of Ng Siu Zhong. I believe that they do not have in their possession this idol as i know its current location.
anyway this could all just be a load of political rubbish. tell me what you think?

:)

888

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hi Friday,

Cool idea! re the keeping in touch. Our generation will have to carry the torch someday.
My Si-Fu is on Lionsroarkungfu@aol.com maybe we could approach him too?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Friday,

Much has been said about Sifu Koh's students at lion dancing. I enjoy watching and playing lion dance myself, but i don't think this should be the main focus. How effective are his students at combat? We know the certain can do a good victory dance!!


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[friday]

Ego, hmmm...I don't think i m in a position to comment on Sifu Kuo's students combat skills and i m sure u aren't interested in hearing about their reputation second , third hand etc. However, I do know that Sifu Kuo is bai see student of his sifu Mr Chan Hak Fu who worked as a bodyguard and fought many fights in his 'career' Of particular note is that they focus on the fighting aspect of Pak Hok.
If you are really interested, I suppose you could always drop by at their mo guan if u are ever in Sydney.

888

[friday]

Hi Barefoot Mantis,

Hope you won't mind about this but I would prefer this idea to be kept with our 'generation' for the moment. i will post my email address soon. hope you can send me yours when i do.

thanks

888

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Friday,

I thought you might have / are training with Peter Koh. That would mean there's more than one school of Pak Hok in Australia. It is not a style easy to find!

But thanks for the info. If there's a ramp access to the studio, I'll drop in when I'm in Sydney. Maybe in December - gets awefully cold in N.Y.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[Shaolin Master]

Ego (Obiwan) how is the Tanglang, Baji and Pigua going. [Don't give me the wheel chair story ah]

Peter Kuo, White crane has a pretty legendary history not because of his skill rather that of his teacher Chan Hak Fu and some say that Mr. Ma has a fairly good reputation as well. The lion dance is well famous in whose eyes. Choy Li Fut used to be quite good in their day as were Yau Kung Mun. But nowadays, Lion dancing has deteriorated in the area.

Though to add the rigidity of the techniques differ from our school of Lama known as Xia Jia Quan. for we practice with much more of a whipping motion and with less rigidity (The internal set even is lacking maybe wasn't passed on properly who knows) and we don't have so many forms that were made up as found in Pak Hok (which are smaller and much more repetitive). Though in the end it is the same art and all very good.

Anyways, nice to see proud and happy students.
Good luck to all of you and enjoy your training.

Regards
Shi Chan Long

[fiercest tiger]

good to see you still around! hows things?

yau kung mun will be performing in chinatown september 29th for august moon festival, my si hing has a lion dance team, they look after the shows, weddings etc. there will be a huge demo at the end ive been told using the mui fa jong at the end of dixon street! the guys train hard and they did one last year! this year suppose to be an even better jong! so lets see, i believe the lion dance is coming back, it will be good to get a lion dance comp here in sydney, within all the schools!! what do you think, lets get it happening???

have you got your website up yet? ;)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[Shaolin Master]

Heyya FT,

That would be great fun, I mentioned that before but It is just so time consuming and I wanted to go to the Malaysian Tournament to understand how it was all organised as they have done it for so long. It would be good to learn from their experiences as there skills in Singapore (Our schools especially hehe) and Malaysia are so cool. From that then add some of our Aussie flavours and make it an interesting venture. Though A few years ago they tried that and it was almost a no show. The closest was a new year in cabra when there were 11 schools, around 29 lions (BKK Carpark was closed off just for lions) and only 4 greens hehe we took 3 that was real fun.

Anyways, I'll try and catch the YKM show on dixon, it should be fun.

Website, I thought about it and I decided to keep the info for the students. So one day I'll re-think the whole idea, probably putting some little bits without too much content for others to ill-use it.

Til Soon

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Shaolinmaster,

Thanks for asking, but I guess you're not interested in my personal life story, which is ok as I would risk being repetitive. If you're asking for a comparsion between those northern styles - they rely alot on relaxed type of whipping action. You can also bring Tai Chi into this catagory.

From my experience with pak hok, it is much more stiff and less apt in the footwork. Training is alot more repetitive. However, your classes in Australia may be different who knows.

We too have lion dancing in the chinatown area. It is limited by space - if done in restaurants etc and time - having to perform the dance in many locations. Perhaps that's why the standard is deterioratng - being able only to perform the abridged version. But it's good to watch anyway to see what a different culture does in their sparetime.

Obiwan????? I'm not a fan of starwars. The Jedi knight stuff is so corney. Did you want my opinion on this as well. Don't get mad - as I hope you're not a starwars fan!


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[diego]

won thing thats kind of anoying me, is alot of kung fu practitioners still have this air of secrecy?????.

if you look at the wing chun guys just on there forum alone has details into the finepoints of thier system;just on that forum alone im willing to bet good money theres more info then in the whole published freakin ghettoe of the LR method

compared to the wing chun world of writing


regardless im about to use this kfof for quintessential knowledge on kf, i have some ideas for headers to create discussions on kf in general, like the relationship between hop/hung/clf's long fists and how are they similar.

but the only forsure i have is in hopgar, so it would be nice if people had some knowledge that may spark continuos progressive discussions;hek ego mite even have some juicy tidbits

[irontiger]

blah,blah,blah,duh!
oh,blah!
good nite :mad:

[diego]

can you pleaz chek his ip
im worryd he mite be that nc punk
and i feel violated having such anoyn fisturbd individuals names under my posts

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hi all,

My line in Si-ji-Hao is thru Chan-Fat-Fu (NOT Chan-Hak-Fu of Bak-Hok - just to be clear, all respects to Chan-Hak-Fu and his Pai). Chan-Fat-Fu is as I've said better known for his Choy-Lay-Fut.
The White Crane that I've seen (in the UK) is quite stiff, as someone said above, but, I can't by any means speak for all of that great Pai.
Chan-Fat-Fu's Lion's Roar is fast, fluid and utilises very powerful transfer of mass and momentum. GM Ku-Chi-Wai of Ng-Yim-Ming lineage in Hop-Gar has said that my Si-Fu's (Steve Richards) Lion's Roar has some Choy-Lay-Fut influences in it - maybe. I respect GM Ku. The Choy-Lay-Fut that I've seen is not very similar to my Si-Fu's teachings. Over the years the Lion's Roar art has diversified very much, maybe we should expect this to happen? I guess if the basics and the principles are there then the art is 'there'?
I a proud of the 'influences' in my art that have come from Tibet - even if changed somewhat over the centuries - just as I am very proud of my Mantis heritage. My Si-Fu has been training in Lion's Roar for nearly thirty years and served 13 years in the frontline as a police officer. I know that he has used it in hundreds of street fights - and his Mantis too. He has studied hung-Gar, Wing-Chun and Northern Shaolin, but always says tha Lion's Roar and the Mantis are (in his experience)the better systems for real fighting.
Maybe... I know it's his position that pesonal belief is not objective, so maybe it would be different for someone else. It's worked for him, so his belief is genuine enough. I noticed that some have said that the Tibetan arts don't spar full contact. My Si-Fu trained us that way (gloves, headguards body armour etc) Also his teacher too, his teacher bust his arm for him using Cum-Na skills in full contact sparring more that 25 years ago. They trained very hard. My Si-Fu is less hard on us! I've been lucky! My teacher emhasises the seed punches and combinations, the tere-san waist power, twisting horse root power, 'chune-ging' and the four principles Chon, Chune, Jeet, Sim, plus two more: Lin-Wan and Fan (switching or reversing). He says: 'Form is not function' but a code like in genetics, read the code and you can achieve very much, just copy it blindly and you can achive very little.

Hope the above helps a little.

[diego]

i start my new job in two hours so i'l get into this tommorrow.

That hop/mantis book,were is the cheapest place i should order and do you know how much it'l be in canadian, i get paid in 2-3 weeks so asap is now...til tommorow.

IT----it says in your bio you have a knowledge on southern kung fu....do you know if the hung master wong-fei-hung and the hop master wong-yan-lam were peers??

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Barefootmantis

"The White Crane that I've seen (in the UK) is quite stiff, as someone said above, but, I can't by any means speak for all of that great Pai."

That's right, my experience has been the stiff versions of white crane. I'm happy for those practitioners who are doing the proper stuff.

"Over the years the Lion's Roar art has diversified very much, maybe we should expect this to happen?"

That's exactly what happens to many styles. it's jsut natural that people interprit things differently. if the crappy stuff isn't weeded out through some means or another, it gets passed on - just like bad genes.

"I guess if the basics and the principles are there then the art is 'there'?"

Well I guess it comes down to what you consider to be the art. How much diffence would it have to be before it's called something else. It's a matter of degree open to interpritation. For example 1.6 is closer to 2.0 than it is to 1.0

"I a proud of the 'influences' in my art that have come from Tibet - even if changed somewhat over the centuries - just as I am very proud of my Mantis heritage."

Are you referring to mantis or crane. if it is mantis (nth), it was developed through a melting pot of many styles which later evolved their different varieties.

Further more harnessing the power from the waist action is crucial. i like the analogy of the gene. Forms can be thought of as consise pieces of code rather than a fighting formulae which many people mistake it to be.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[diego]

.

[Bobbyfalero]

IS the Pai that you first mention from Bak Hok Pai have any relation to GrandMaster Daniel K. Pai from Gong Yuen Chuan Fa family and PAI LUM TAO????

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hi there Ego,

I'll try get my Si-Fu to post here. his Hop-Mantis book contains a lot on what he calls 'information theory' and the 'cultural genetics of martial arts forms'. He also published two scientific papers on martial arts:

'Hyperventilation, trance sattes and suggestion in the martial arts'

'From post modernism to dialectical syncretism, understanding the anthropology and cultural evolution of martial arts systems'.

They were at a conference at a UK university in 1998, July I think, it was Manchester Metropolitan University, Sports and Exercise Science Faculty. The conference was run by a group called the Society of Martial Arts.

My Si-Fu caused a big stir with those papers and his book. He was threatened with Sun-Dar by a UK Mantis practitioner who's also running a Tibetan style religious cult. He wouldn't face my Si-Fu though - just got his students to 'trash him' on internet forums.

The Hop-Mantis book is not traditional, that was the 'problem' he also showed how a lotta western guys get hooked into crap through cult beliefs.
He also introduced a western way of thinking about the martial arts - for western guys, based on classical Greek philosophy - too daring man!!!

My Si-Fu has got first class traditional Chinese martial arts credentials that p***** off some guys cos he can cut it either east or west.

Yep, I'm proud of my Lion's Roar inherritance, and my Mantis is southern Jook-Lum from Lee-Yin-Sing lineage.

[diego]

In my book,hop gar kf by david chin, it says:
triangle
4directions
single flower
7star
pa-kua step
The 5 footwork patterns, named KAY-MEN-BO"the feetplay agianst every1 elses" derived from
JIKBOKLOTOW'S Mu-Fa-Jeong"in wich it states wong-yan-lam spent 11yrs to perfect it.

it says theres 12 longhand/12 shorthand
it says there are a variety of kicks but they are considered secondary techniques.

so you have:
half-step= lead leg shuffles 6-9 inches and the rear follows to end up where lead started.

triangle= quite a few apps; left step out,r outside crescent"kick"step...or just basic shuffle"stance switch, like left and right straight punch"chin choi".

then you have the one-legged???= you can sross step to the opposite side against heavy kicks.
also you can swing your lead leg behind rear"or just shuffle rear bacl after a forward stance crown block and uppercut to groin or bladder'You
rip-up and down groin and crown, while your backleg shuffle back into a one-leg stance"

we have 2 techs that have pakua feetplay

in a left fighting horse agianst r punch"facing 12"/l step to 9 and r step into about 11:45 &
left plam-brush outside his elbow and r striaght to short-ribs.Now your left steps behind your right to 1-o'clock! Spin counter-clockwise;endup in a r cat stance to 5 and left wipes back of neck-upper back/then right slaps back of neck then left palm checks back of neck then right-backfist back of neck then right grabs collar of the back of his shirt!
the 2nd....same step and uppercut instead of straight"or dont just deflect strike"and quickly step behind right"lead"..this time instead of catstance to 5 you end up in a r crane"side bow stance" to 6....while getting thier you while unwind-spin counterclock your left hand wipes the back of his neck or shoulder and the right and does a overhead strike wiping down spine with second row of knuckles like leopard style!

Barefoot Mantis could you break down the 5steps of jikboklotow's mufajeong.....thanks

[diego]

ohya then you have like the centipede step like hsingyi santi"im not to clear with this one"

1 tech i have his
you in lfh vs r bottle smash/
you left step out and r step into 11?! and left crown deflect and r vert spear to armpit then chop
ribs and armbreak hammer groin and dragon claw to face all with the same hand by the hammer his arm should be limp and your left palm guards right shortrib while right dragon claw"thumb and index and middle fingers"

we use the tiger claw ,palm heel then rake.
we use the ridge hand,to groin/temple/kidney/ribs&throat.
straight/wipe/round"inverted backfist"/uppercut/backfist/rake&overhead/chop.
spearhand.
elbows.
the main kicks we train are:
front/side/round/backstraight/backhook/arch/knees.
the slash an inverted round kick with the side of your shoe along knee or face/& the tornadoe kick
as a knockout"you can slash" or agianst low sweeps....i like just to strenthen your hippower.

the main ground kicks are low round and back sweep & low side to knee or ground front to groin.

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hey diego,

My Si-Fu Steve Richards, he teaches his Hop-Gar Mantis system, but he also teaches Mantis on its own, usually he teaches his Lion's Roar with Mantis as they both go so well together - so thats how the combined style came about.

He's very modern (these years anyway) - used to be VERY traditional in the Eastern sense. He's done his bit but now says that he has to acknowledge that he's a Western guy who's learned Eastern martial arts. So, he teaches how to use the stance (in Si-Ji-Hao) as an 'artillery platform' but also as a 'ramming and jamming' weapon. He uses ramming, jamming, drop-step, shuffle step, shuffle leg low-line kicks, drop step punches all in ways that go under 'traditional' names. He's just concerned with going forward and taking the guys balance - just like Wong-Yin-Lum. He tries to 'knock the vertical centre-line out of alignment with the body, as the person MUST then FALL in the direction that his balance plane is moving'. He uses 'long arm - short range' methods with penetration and follow through. He doesn't like 'posturing' or giving any 'bridge' away - just attacking VERY aggressively. He uses loads of destruction techniques and will hit whatever gets in the way.

His Hop-Gar Mantis book, you should know that its not very traditional - in case you are disappointed. It has got one of Chan-Fat-Fu's Si-Ji-Hao forms in it: Sei-Lo-Fun-Dar - 'Four Way Separate Attack'. However, he deleted some moves from the photographs of the openning, and also one whole four directional section involving ramming uppercuts and Key-Lung-Mah to Gung-Tse-Mah footwork. He did this to respect Si-Gung who asked him not to give the whole set away in a book.

Si-Fu's book on Tibetan Kung-Fu (out next year) will cover the fighting theories, basics/fundamentals and 'real world' san-sau applications. Si-Fu Richards is an experienced street fighter and don't give a **** for wasted movements or wasteful training.

He's doin a two volume autobiography at the moment out before Christmas in the UK which tells it all about his life, fights, police work and kung-fu.

I'm seven years older than him (I'm 51). I started Japanese martial arts and did them for 15 years or so. When I met him and trained Japanese style he joked and called me the 'Barefoot Mantis' cos I did it at first in bare feet! Not any more! I learned the hard way!

I've studied all of his pai from him, but I can't claim to be a Master, I'm still just an 'ol 'Barefoot Mantis' hobblin' round learnin wha I can!

[diego]

ya im not much traditional in respects to my study.
Im all technique combination theoretical drills"have about 120 of them"
i have the warmup wich gives you the main frame.
then theres 1opunch/10kick combos....really just for flow and it has the essence of bridging the gap!.then theres 13 sets i have for sure 4 of them but i learnt advanced application before i learnt the groundwork sets for good frame in one's study of progressive application........
so i can see the gist off the system by seeing applications in the differant sections..gotta go

[friday]

Sorry Silent Dragon, I don't think so...at least so far as I am aware. You could be referring to the other White Crane Style that exists.

888

[friday]

I have seen 'stiff' Pak Hok martial artists. Actually I used to be one of them...;)
I have also had the privelege to see Pak Hok Pai people who perform techniques and forms as they should be. These aren't stiff. Fast, powerful and flowing. I have also had the opportunity to see min lui jum (cotton-needle forms) being performed by different masters. I think the stiffness just reflects the experience and skill level of the students and sifus.
Unfortunately, I think there are quite a few people out there who aren't that good (me included :).

888

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Barefootmantis,

Would it be possible for your instructor to email me a soft copy of his research paper? My experience in martial arts indicates that those eastern mystical beliefs can be excluded without compromising the combat ability of the style.

Did your instructor have a sceintific or maths background? I view forms as a meqns of setting up the parameters of the system. Through experience you explore the solution space defined by the parameters. Not many people train like that and as a result after 20+ years of training the arte still crap fighters.

Unfortunately many southern styles trained this way. Northern styles - many of them suffer the same fate. Perhaps it's because instructors tend be become more insterested in following the cultural heritage rather than looking at the problem from a logical angle.

I agree that the Japanese culture is prone to following rules. Maybe it's the samye way in communist China when the population is persuaded not to think so much!


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hey Ego,

Si-Fu will send the files on today. His background is in psychotherapy and anthropology, also the study of trance states and respiratory psychophysiology.

The cultural genetics bit is in the Hop book I think, if the diagram is not in the papers best check there, but I think that the basis of it is discussed in the anthropology paper.

He looks at the whole style as the genotype, the individuals expression of it as the cultural phenotype, the individual moves in a form are the cultural genes, the sequences of movements are 'gene sequences' and the forms are chromosomes. He talks about 'transcription errors'
and so on.

On another forum he posted a topic under 'Darwin's Mantis's' and got badly attacked by some dick heads but a few understood. It was based on that Darwin man, and his research on isolated populations of birds: 'Darwin's Finches' developing differently from a common genetic stock. Si-Fu said that Jook-Lum (and maybe Hop too) was like that, it was bound to evolve, but still have 'common ancestors'. That don' go down at all well with pure 'traditionalists'!

[friday]

Diego, may i ask you how you obtained those videos of forms, techniques?
I don't think they were sold to you , right???
your sifu must trust you which is good.
I think it was a great idea when my sifu gave me video tapes of the forms i have learnt in order to ensure that i didn't forget them.
by the way do u learn the combined hop gar and mantis system? does that mean you do not know any of the 'original' forms that lions roar is comprised of. or your sifu also teaches that too.
also having had a think about it, i think that repetitiveness of pak hok fighers could be because some teachers of Pak Hok have broken up the in/out step into smaller versions in which each of the 'six strengths' are broken up and repeated in the separate versions.
The traditional form of lau sing kuen (shooting stars form) comprises of around 200 techniques. Fei Hok Kuen 'flying crane fists' is a little less than that. These two forms make up the Pak Hok in/out step form. The reason why it was broken down to two sets was because the whole form in the one shot is over 300 techniques with each movement/technique with its own reference. My sifu has also shown how these two sets are combined together.
I would like to give mor detail to people I trust. But I am not sure my sifu would feel comfortable if i started distributing forms to everyone on the internet who i don't know very well. Thats why i think the network of tibetan ma will help.
I plan to teach Pak Hok Pai in the future in Australia. This will give me the opportunity to meet the people i will teach and i wish to spread Pak Hok Kung Fu around the whole of Australia.

Barefoot Mantis, send me an email look out for the network for tibetan MA. :) cheers

888

[diego]

i learnt from my moms boyfriend then we had a falling out so we can say i learnt actual combat from the idiot!!!!!!!.

the guy who taught the methods name was alexander"kaido"pollintain,he was killed in a nightclub about 15 years ago,what i hear a wild dude.
thier is three main students the one who's video i have and one who stayed with us for a week and shot the fundamentals.
the guy in the video runs a acadeny in montreal,its my hopes to save enough $ to get out thier and learn the sparring method.His videos were shot in like 1980 and i emailed him he told me someone asked to borrow just to watch but now who knows how many people have copys....doesnt matter tho because you would need to personally be shown the fundamentals....and he just runs through them in a park for like 15 minutes...
he said originally kaido taught 44 combinations and 13 sets.....ten progressive study hand and kick forms.a staff and broadsword sets and the hard/soft set of hop ga wich im sure is the one in the video that starts off coilslow like taichi then mid way flurries into whipping technique.

what i was told was kaido learnt from "harry"ng-yim-ming and wc.wong"mantis?" and adriano emperado"kajukenbo".
but when i emialed the video student he said emperado highly respected kaidos technique but didnt personnally teach him,and he didnt know who wc wong was and the senior of ngyimmings sanfran school didnt recall seeing kaito there??
so im thinking either kaito put it together from methods he learnt from students of the main guys or because harry ng ming taught triad types in sanfran it mite be a underground school that he picked up somewhere........or people just dont want to talk i dont know????

so i dont think any of those sets are olschool classical tho some could be...but also they may be new kf made between 1950-70??????
LATE FOR WORK....gotta go

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hi Friday,

The Combined Hop-Gar Mantis DOES NOT claim to be the original Lion's Roar Pai, it IS from Chan-Fat-Fu's teachings though, and it contains some forms from his lineage. It's a development of that line and also Lee-Yin-Sing's Jook-Lum Pai. Yer know..
if you teach a combined system from TCMA roots and DON'T call it traditional you get told "That's just **** Pai", if you say IT IS from whatever PAI you get told "It isn't TCMA".
Very helpful eh...

From what I know of my Si-Fu, that system reflects his experience and learning and he don't amke ANY cliams at all beyond that.

Si-Gung Liu called it Si-Ji-Hao, as did his Si-Fu and his Sifu. That is how it was 'received' and in respect to them Si-Fu still calls his Tibetan hand 'Lion's Roar'. Si-Fu got the nick-name "Hop-Gar Man" in Liverpool 28 years ago cos even when a disciple to Hung-Gar Master Jimmy Chan-Wai he was always asked to demonstrate his Tibetan art at CNY and Kung-Fu demonstrations.

Si-Gung Liu, and Grandmaster Lee-Sun-Wah (LYS Jook-Lum) have 'OK'd' Si-Fu's combined teachings. They know that he still practices their original teaching and that he doesn't claim that his combined style is 'better' or anything like that.

I think that your Tibetan group is a great idea. I'll tell Si-Fu and also get some other UK contacts for you - White Crane and Hop-Gar.
I'll be in touch with you.

[Gum Gong]

I train Bak Hok,and Hop Gar.I would like to join this Tibetan MA community.My lineage comes from Chan Hak Fu/Ku Chi Wai.

[friday]

Hi Gum Gong,

Its great that you are interested. Send me your details, email address on the email: tibetanma@hotmail.com

:)

888

[friday]

Hi Barefoot Mantis,

Thanks for that, your help is really appreciated. :)
I have received your email, next time i speak to my sifu i will see if he is interested. I am sure some of my fellow kung fu bros will be.
Give my regards to your sifu.

:)

888

[HopGar]

Count me in as well. like I said before, I'm studying Hop Gar under Sifu Ku Chi Wai in ATL.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[friday]

Hey Barefoot Mantis,

I think its pretty good that your sifu's two sifus are ok with him teaching and having combined two different systems. i think it would be a great experience to see this lions roar mantis combined kung fu.

Me personally, have only studied Pak Hok Pai from two sifus aside from a little Choy Lee Fut when i was younger.

A sihing of mine studied praying mantis and also Pak Hok but have not combined the two. He is part of a martial arts association in the Philiopines.

anyway, enuff of this rambling. one day it would be good to meet up with u and compare the two tibetan mas.

:)

888

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hey Friday,

Don't know if you know anyone from grandmaster Ku-Chi-Wai's school? My Si-Fu REALLY rates him and his student kevin Kaley. I know Kevin has some Lion's Roar tapes (backyard stuff) from my Si-Fu - all informal but it's got forms and free san-sau on it. Heck, ya might even see me on 'em ! - eatin' cement that is!

My Si-Fu is really open, shares everything he's got with any interested martial artist. That means some people don't like him cos he's open and tells it how it is - he don't mind being wrong either, he's just glad to learn some more.

Si-Fu also knows Master Sam Kwok of Wing-Chun, disciple of Yip-Chun and Yip-Ching. Master Kwok is also Pak-Hok, from his uncle the late great Luk-Chi-Fu - he don't talk about it much, but I KNOW that Master Kwok really rates White Crane - he tends to keep it to himself - but has shared it with Si-Fu.

Which branch of Mantis was learned alongside White Crane?

Great to talk,

See ya soon friend!

[HopGar]

Don't know if you know anyone from grandmaster Ku-Chi-Wai's school? My Si-Fu REALLY rates him and his student kevin Kaley. I know Kevin has some Lion's Roar tapes (backyard stuff) from my Si-Fu - all informal but it's got forms and free san-sau on it. Heck, ya might even see me on 'em ! - eatin' cement that is!

- Dude, that's my school! Yeah he has tapes, he taped the class. You might see me on em in reality doin some punches..

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[diego]

""The traditional form of lau sing kuen (shooting stars form) comprises of around 200 techniques. Fei Hok Kuen 'flying crane fists' is a little less than that. These two forms make up the Pak Hok in/out step form. The reason why it was broken down to two sets was because the whole form in the one shot is over 300 techniques with each movement/technique with its own reference. My sifu has also shown how these two sets are combined together.""

could you give a basic rundown on those two sets,what type of physical skills would you get from say a consistent 2year-period study.
I have enough application to visualize and hit my bag until i can find another Professor....So im seeking the old school formulas to help my imagery in focus for my method --namsayn!!!.... :)

khong what type of skills and strentghs have you achieved since you started study.

barefoot-mantis:My teacher emhasises the seed punches and combinations, the tere-san waist power, twisting horse root power, 'chune-ging' and the four principles Chon, Chune, Jeet, Sim, plus two more: Lin-Wan and Fan (switching or reversing). ....Would you be so kind to put into lamemans english the dictionary referances to those formulas, and if you could give a basic example like agianst a r punch you can left lead leg shuffle outwars deflect/block above his elbow and horizontal fingerjab to soft spot in throat..and that would be like swarming!!.

can any of you guys ask your sifus to fill in the blanks behind the original footwork descriptions...In my book,hop gar kf by david chin, it says:
triangle"""quite obvious"""
4directions"""halfstep????"""
single flower
7star
pa-kua step
The 5 footwork patterns, named KAY-MEN-BO"the feetplay agianst every1 elses" derived from
JIKBOKLOTOW'S Mu-Fa-Jeong"in wich it states wong-yan-lam spent 11yrs to perfect it.I dont want to waste bandwidth so the 5 techs i have wich i think are the feetplay is on page 4 of this post..
take care

[Gum Gong]

Are you talking about Chit Yap Bo.That is the in/out kuen that I know of.What I heard is that Chan Hak Fu broke it down into 5 parts because none of his students could do the whole thing with the intensity and spirit that it deserved.I think what you guys are calling the shooting stars kuen is the same thing as the four meteor fists(Which were the origonal techniques that the Lamas taught the dub dub monks about 600 years ago)From what I understand Chit Yap Bo dates back 600 years.We call the 5 parts: charge set ,uppercut set,overhand set,fisthook set,and claw set but I honestly think that it's the same kuen that you guys are talking about.Just broken up differently.

We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet
our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass
away.

[diego]

.

[diego]

Chan Hak Fu broke it down into 5 parts because none of his students could do the whole thing with the intensity and spirit that it deserved.I think what you guys are calling the shooting stars kuen is the same thing as the four meteor fists(Which were the origonal techniques that the Lamas taught the dub dub monks about 600 years ago)From what I understand Chit Yap Bo dates back 600 years.We call the 5 parts: charge set ,uppercut set,overhand set,fisthook set,and claw set

DO YOU HAVE ANY ARTICLES YOU COULD SHARE ON THAT HISTORY...
EACH SECTION OF THE FIVE IS IT 5 sections and say the uppercut one is a bunch of uppercuts with varying feetplay... im on a need to no basis :)

[friday]

Hi everyone,

ok first of all, the Pak Hok Pai In/Out Step includes a variety of techniques. It contains all the basic punches (Luk Lik or six strengths), some grappling moves, blocks, takedowns, a few techniques with an internal aspect to it. It is usually the first fundamental form that is taught after completion of basics, and the six strengths form. This form is seen mainly as an external form.
There are a number of possible reasons for breaking down the in/out step into its 6 parts. I don't want to speculate on this but the reasons that I have heard about this is similar to the one already posted on this forum. that is it is too long people aren't able to perform the whole form etc especially in modern day society. Whatever the reasons, the six forms referred to as Jin Bo, Pao Bo etc (arrow punch form, uppercut form etc) make up in some way the in/out step. However, these 6 'parts' have additional moves, and greater repetitions in it of the move that the form is named. That is Jin Bo has more jin (arrow) punches. In short, if these 6 parts were combined together the final form would ultimately be larger than the in/out step. What is likely practice in these schools where the 6 parts are taught is that the 6 parts act as a small breakdown of the in/out step and acts as a way of easier introduction before the in/out step is taught. This mind u is merely speculation. You will have to ask your sifus.
what i can say is that the unbroken in/out step is very hard to perform from beginning to end at full power. performing the whole of lau sing keun is difficult enough. This is actually the reason why the original In/out step was broken up into its two parts (shooting star and flying crane fist forms).
As to the reason why it is called in/out step my guess is that the footwork comprises of moving in and out against your enemy. It contains evasive moves, penetrating attacks. I would be happy to find out as i don't want anyone to rely on my speculation:)

888

[friday]

Chert Yup Bo does take a while to master. Depending on your skill level, background, sifu it could take you two years to master. If you are able to master this form, the basics, six strengths, Tit Lin Keun (chain fist set)and another few forms, you will find that you will master later forms faster. It is important that these initial forms are comprehensively understood and practiced well. It forms the foundation of the whole Pak Hok Pai kung fu.

also somet hings i forgot to mention. the in/out step also includes elbow strikes, a few kicks, counter holds, bone breaking techniques, joint manipulation, clawing techniques, throat strikes, eye strikes. it is importnt to note it has no ground fighting.

cheers

888

[diego]

do you think in/out has anything to do with or similar to sillimtao of wing chun like inhale/exhale pull-in/expand relaxed/tensed?????like its the basis to the lionroar method??????/til tommorrow

[friday]

hmm...diego that is a a pretty good comparison...i never thoughtof that...i will have to chek.

888

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Barefootmantis,

Thanks, i received the papers from your sifu, rather ineresting stuff.

Friday,

You mentioned that there isn't ground fighting. Isn't mongolian wrestling part of the cirriculum in Australia?


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[friday]

Hi Ego,

Yes mongolian wrestling is part of Pak Hok Pai.
What you are referring to is the breakdown i gave of the types of moves etc contained in the Chert Yup Bo. which is only one of the forms studied in Bak Hok Pai. I also believe that some of the grappling moves in this form probably has its origins from mongolian wrestling.

regards,

888

[diego]

may i please have a copy

[friday]

Hi Barefoot Mantis,

I would be interested in reading those papers too.

Regards,

Friday

888

[friday]

Thanks Steve and Mantis,

Thanks for the papers. I wasn't sure what to expect in respect of those papers, I just knew they had something to do with kung fu and haha thats always enough to get me interested. Having read a little of it, it is quite interesting but surprising as well. The papers are of a higher level than i expected.

By the way,
Steve do you teach kung fu fulltime or do you work in another job? If you do could you describe how you came to be in such a position and what difficulties you faced when trying to achieve your goals. Could you also give me some tips on how to pursue to such a 'career'?

Also how has your combined hop gar-mantis style measured up in competitions?

In respect of your kung fu life, have you encountered injuries and how have you dealt with them?

Thanks

your friend,

Friday

888

[diego]

but i'l be sure to give a response...

khong were you at what skills you got inya first year of hopga.

any1else could you guys answer those footwork and principal questions in above pots

peace

[diego]

dang qibored

peace

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Friday, Diego and Ego,

Thanks for your private e-mail messages, and those posted here too.

Four of my grand-students want to enter an international full contact tournament held near where we are based 'Euro-Wirral'. Apparently it gets coverage on cable TV. They want to represent the combined system. Last year, my Mantis brother Andy Liu-Kin-Ming, who is nephew of my Lion's Roar teacher, entered and won that tournament representing Wing-Chun, rather than Mantis.

My grand-students will be ready probably for the September 2002 event.

By 'fighting' do you mean in training or in the street? If in training, yep we do contact training
always have since I first started Lion's Roar in 1973. As for the street, I've had countless fights as a front line police officer many of which are covered in my auto-biography due out in two volumes: one next month and one in December.
That book covers the story of my MA career intertwined with my police service.

I wish you the very best with the Tibetan network, I can give you some UK White-Crane and Hop-Gar contacts and would be glad to help in any way that I can.

Steve.

[HopGar]

diego ill get back to ya shortly..am sick at the moment and am notgonna post anything really right now.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[diego]

i'l think up some questions
make it nice and easy 4u


can any of you guys tell me about the drunken set/s? in lama. i have a book by leung ting the 8?drunken immortals but its in chinese.

also what is the hopga lesser5animal set like,
i have the tiger/crane book of hung ga by bucksam khong and the shaolin 5animals by docfaiwong and jane hallender init is a longa$$ set like 278 movements.
In a article by lamaist sifu ross he states wongyanlam was peers with wongfiehung.....any info
DEEPLY INTERESTED

[friday]

Thanks Steve your support and help will be appreciated.

as for eight drunken immortals of Pak Hok Pai, this form is not the same as the 8 shaolin drunken immortals except that it is based upon the 8 saints in chinese mythology. there is more than one drunken form in Pak Hok Pai, one is a higher level. These are one of the last forms taught.

five lesser animals, five greater animals, I thought that was a result of an exchange of Hung Far techniques by Wong Fei Hung and lama kung fu tecniques some one in the lama kung fu style.
I have seen siu mg ying (five lesser animals) - quite impressive, one of my sihing explained the devastating nature of one of these techniques which i wouldn't have guessed just by seeing the form in action.

these are all things i have heard or read somewhere.

anyone else can add anything ?

888

[Gum Gong]

We have Drunken in my school here's a $.03 tour.

"The footwork of Drunken training is called "whirlwind legs".When coupled with hold-cup-fists and drunken posturing the characteristics of Drunken style Gung Fu is created."Whirlwind Legs and Hold-Cup-Fists"is comparable, minus the drunken acting and posturing,to the Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan technique called "Wave Hands Like Clouds" and can be used for as either a striking or throwing method.
The 8 Immortals ,or 8 Drunken Faries,
represents eight primordial archetypes of human personality. Like saints of the western religion, they demonstrate the capability of human beings to attain higher states of being.Each Immortal is based upon a real person in Chinese history and each attained immortality in a different way,along the path collecting his own particular attributes and idiosyncrasies.
Heres a list of the Eight Immortals.
Chung-li Ch'uan -The leader of the group,with the Elixer of Life and a magic fan to revive the dead.
Lan Tsai-he -The patron saint of gardeners and florists who carries a basket of flowers while wearing a tatterd blue gown and one shoe on.
Ts'ao Kuo-chiu -The emperor's brother-in-law, playing castanets,is the patron saint of actors.
Lu Tung-pin -The Taoist scholar with with fly whisk and magic sword.
Han Hsiang-tsu -The scholar with the flute.
Ho Hsien-ku -The fairy maiden with the Peach of Longevity.
Chang Kuo-lao -The elder magician with the bamboo drum who rides his mule backwards.
Li Tieh-kuai -The lame beggar with the iron crutch and magic gourd."
Each Immortal has it's own martial technique of course"which the set is based on".From my own experience drunken is very demanding on your body.My teacher had me doing six strengths (minus the claw) out of the drunken horse,which requires that your stomach be fully engaged for about 1 hour,and yes it will make you want to vomit until you get used to it.null

[diego]

there was an oldschool actual style of drunken kung fu... and alot of the late ching era styles have a drunken set at advanced levels...is your drunken, lions roar method or??

[friday]

According to my understanding from discussion with one of my sifus on this issue, Pak Hok Pai has its own drunken forms. This is different from the drunken forms from shaolin and other styles. It may have similar principles and you learn about different things such as falling, rolling, deception, etc but it is different.
there are also a few drunken forms. This may depend on your lineage. David Ross thinks that there aren't many forms that are common to the Pak Hok Pai people at present. various Pak Hok Pai lineages may have different variations of the drunken forms.
One interesting thing that came up when i had this discussion with my sifu and sihing was that one of the drunken forms begins with the fighter standing up leaning forwards and collapsing falling to the ground face forwards without injury. anyway it sounds quite amazing,
i think as these are some of the advanced forms, it could be in danger of being lost. I think that there aren't too many ppl who know these forms.
anyway thats about as much as i know about the drunken forms.

888

[friday]

sorry about this i haven't forgotten tho'
i called my sifu last night but he isn't in hong kong at the moment...anyway will contact him again tonight

cheers

888

[diego]

could you list in progressive order all the sets

most of my forms have sections with hopga attributes,one i know is hop ga is the soft/hard set-----it starts off slow and coillike like taiji then halfway through flurries into whipping technique

[diego]

pleas

[friday]

hi everyone,
spoke to my sifu last night woohoo i was right...sort of anyway :)
actually i more correct translaction of chert yup bo
is exit/enter or out/in is ok too.
basically both forms combined are moving up and down, out/in, exit and enter in a straight line fighting ppl thru moving forwards and backwards, most of the attacks and defences are directed at opponents in front or behind you, however some of the techniques are also applied on the side during the form.
anyway hope this was of help

also hahahah
sorry diego, i had a list of about 30 of the 50 forms in order that my sifu teaches, but i gave it to someone else, i only had the one copy :)
anyway the first few things are this

gei boon (basics)
Luk Lik (six strengths)
Lau Sing Keun (shooting stars)
Ng Long Kwan (Stick form)
fei hok keun (flying crane fist)
ying cheung (spear)

and i can't remember the order of the others, but i do know tit lin keun is taught soon after, plus single saber, five lesser animals is taught probably somewhere in the 14 form or something,
there are also weapon forms along the way. and weapon against other weapon forms.
anyway these are pak hok pai forms and probably different form what you learn in hop gar mantis etc.
:)

888

[diego]

Please remember that my line is unorthodox and as within many Tibetan
branches the forms will most probably be different, have different names or
the same or similar names but different movements.

1. Siu-Hok-Dar ‘Lesser Crane attack’ – sometimes called Siu-Hok-Kuen: Kuen
meaning ‘fist’.

2. Sei-Lo-Fun-Dar ‘Four-Way-Separate-attack’ – sometimes
four different versions are trained; one for fists, one for
elbows, one for open hands and one for
kicks.

3. Sui-Lo-Han-Kuen ‘Lesser Bodhistatva Fist’ – fundamental
Lama techniques.

4. Dai-Lo-Han-Kuen‘ Greater Bodhistatva Fist’ – development on from the
Lesser Bodhistatva (Buddhist-saint) Fist form.

5. Tau-Dar ‘To Steal The Attack’.

6. Dai-Hok-Dar ‘Greater Crane Attack’ – higher level Crane
techniques.

7. Lau-Sing-Dar ‘Shooting-Star attack’ – characterises use of ‘seed
punches’ in combination with a variety of other techniques.

8. Wai-Tor-Luk-Lo ‘The Abbot Monks Six way’s’. An emphasis made on short
range power and switching techniques.

9. Tsut-Sing-Dar‘ Seven-Stars-attack’ – characterised by a seven punch
single arm combination attack and Ape elbow techniques.

10.Siu-Hao-Yee-dar ‘Lesser ApeAttack’: Hao-Yee (monkey) and
Cheung-Bei-Yuan, meaning long arm ape are interchangeable names.
Techniques including grappling and groundfighting are trained

11.Dai-Hao-Yee-Dar ‘Greater Ape/Monkey Attack’: advanced Ape techniques
characterised by deception methods.

12.Min-loi-Jarn ‘Needle-In-Cotton’ – Internal set.

As for Hop-Gar Mantis, there are 18 hand sets and 18 weapon sets, 9 each for
empty hand and weapons from the two parent systems either as classical sets
or newly formated in the spirit of the system. There is no 'combined form'
but the san-sau emphasises linkage between the systems.

[diego]

about the form study passed down by ng-ming

i really need your list since we can cliam same great-gradmaster


well i dont need but it will definatly open my eyes with what im doing and the future.

[friday]

Hey thanks for posting that on for us, and Steve giving the ok for you to do so.

thats really interesting.Pak Hok Pai also has 18 weapon sets. There are about 15 or so forms i don't know the name or have never heard before as they arn't on my sifu's list. These he teaches after the ones on the list are learnt.
some of the names on the list is also (empty hand sets)

luk lo jung keun (six roads seed fist???)
dai ng ying (five greater animals)
tin gong kuen (heaven set)
Gum Gong (diamond set)
lohan keun and more...

anyway, I thinks thats all for now :)
I get worried maybe sifu might not want me to do this...but hahaha but i guess he will probably just laugh and say hahaha its just names no one will learn how to do it from telling the names.
Anyway I plan to go see him again in february next year and train for five or so weeks.
can't waitt woohoo

:)

888

[diego]

i mean i look at my teens and the brawls im very glad i didnt know martial arts i mean the basic encounter was a hockey fight just grab the shoulder and start punching while your opp does the same

very glad i didnt have the concept to rake the face and slam the temple....prolly wouldnt be typing now.....well at least in the comfort of my home hehe.


then you got all these teachers?? made fun of on the main forum cuz they form looks funny like video-lineage"""no names mentioned check the archive""

if you goto the wing chun forum look at the recent post on turning

THERES LIKE 2 ARTICLES WORTH OF INFO JUST ON FREAKING TURNING FROM THE LAST FRIGGEN WEEK


so secrecy is not cool but necessary??;
horrible though i mean i know more about wc principles then i do my own system.

[HopGar]

Hate to say it, but I havent been in long enough to know how many forms/weapons we have off hand. I can name 3

-Shaolin Form
-Gong Ji form
-Hop Gar Form


Most of our weapons my sifu learned from someone else,I really dont know if they are hop gar or not. I know 3combo's off hand, as well as our basics..sorry dude

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[friday]

Hi Diego,

hmmm...this secrecy thing, i probably just feel uncomfortable cos' don't know who this goes to and whether my sifu will definitely mind or not.
when he teaches me tho' there isn't much secrecy at all. i ask him he tells me. even when my dai sihing was practicing some advanced forms (soft cotton needle form) i asked my sifu whether i should go (thinking mayb i shouldnt be here watching) and my sifu said "why should you? you will be learning this one day, stay here and watch. It will make it easier for you to learn and understand when i teach you".
Anyway i get a little over excited when i think about it. Its just so amazing. I ask him the application of techniques, what precise position , execution of techniques etc and he tells me. Lucky he thinks i will be a good student.
hahaha sorry here i go again, babbling away. :) hope no one minds.

888

[diego]

they have in article form half? of there iron wire set..what i see is its done in sections and its all just basic stanceswitches with isometrics
and advanced attitutde????makes sense if you know what im talking about.

in the variety of lions roar is it simmilar to the hung method or?????

[diego]

time for work hy-ho :D

[friday]

Hi Diego

would you mind posting the lions roar forms you know?

thanks

Friday

888

[friday]

No Idea,

couldn't find the site you looked at.

friday

888

[HopGar]

go for it. I'll respond a quickyl as I can..im still trying to answer that long one you send months ago

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[diego]

hungga.net thats the addie it should work


my sets i learnt and in montreal it was taught from a kajukenbo perspective meaning the terminoligy is all modern karate sayings wich totally screws me up

like big tiger steals mountain is a horizontal fist in a lunge"bow&arrow stance"

and i hate it like wing chun calls outward grab lopsao and if you knew chinese and broke that down you would probably get varyiing energetic definitions compared to outward block...so im missing alot of the spirit of the art..nowhatimean

i could write out the first set in detail couldnt hurt WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK IS IT A WASTE OF TIME OR WHAT....i want people to share what they can so another unheard from practitioner of lr mite stumble on this forum and decide to post because everybody else-is...so i'l post it when i get up i already have it written in my emial so i'l just have to edit so it makes sence to yall

besides that im just piecing together the rest from what i learnt in apps'

but to be fare most of them are called set1'2'3'4 etc
but i have old notes of chinese names but i will have to see if i can get a translate from a senior & who knows how long that will take??

[diego]

> first form----7 sections...
>
> > > > > > section1}two arms grab the top of your coat at
>
> chest~
>
> > > > > > l drop-back in horse* while r elbow smash
> pressure
>
> > > > > > spot above op's inside elbow~ flow r vert-fist 2
>
> nose~
>
> > > > > > shift forward-switch to R front
>
> t-stance""tiger in most styles???" and
>
> l klaw 2 face~
>
> > > > > > L grip R side of op's head and R elbow to op's L
>
> temple,while switching
>
> into horse ~ R low back-fist 2 groin and R backfist 2 face/nose...step
back
>
> cover..#2
>
>
>
> > > > > >left outside stepinto left bow-stance left pak sao double punch ""r then left chamber between each punch"
>to
> shortribs cont.flow right grab shoulder&
>
>rsidekick knee and flow right roundhouse kick to stomach or groin with toes and then r chop back of neck while r foot steps down so your in a left crane stance before chop you switch to a right crane stance and pull down with your left....that is #2>
>
>
>
> the first set:from section three
>
>
> > > > l cover in left fighting horse, l step
>
>
>
> back' thread step for a r horse while cranes head deflect opps round punch at
>
> your r
>
> temple........r knife hand,chop next punch..in fluid combination...l hand
> grab arm
>
> and
>
> pull towards your shoulder while r tiger claw presses face......... >"so he threw a left and r boxer hook"
>
>
> > > > step back and cover
>
> > > > l lead horse//r pushes in l bil sao"crown block"
>
> > > > simultaneously, r spear to arm pit, while hopping into right cat
>
> stance, blocking
>
> a bottle smash' overhead//
>
> > > > r chop short rib, loosen bottle, left drop down 'r palm
>
> press up, arm snap!!r hammer fist' groin, l cover
>
> belly, r
>
> dragon claw 'face....
>
> > > > r step back 'n 'cover
>
> > > >
>
> > > > left step out, l pak sao ,while r hooks' in for a r cat
>
> stance ,intercepting
>
> a r straight>>>>r dragon claw grips opp's l arm pit ,outside
>
> soft tissue!!"soft skinFold!!
>
> at bra strap"" so you grip ,left pushes arm forward, while r rips left
>
> breast plate
>
> 'r hands cuffed, rip towards you// than r sun fist groin//roll'' l pushes
>
> arm down
>
> ,r Dclaw face...r step back and cover...
>
> > > >
>#6
> > > > l outward step, 2 a l bow stance,l bellblock ,vs'opponents r knife thrust
>
> ,and r grab wrist//r
>
> side kick, knee or hip,
>
> > > > step r leg ,down-forward, behind op's r 'lead leg, thread
>
> arm ,up-away, and
>
> behind you, and r tiger klaw face...r step back n cover
>
> > > >
>
> > > > l step out ,l pak sao, opp's r straight, r plants in a
>
> > > > r pakua step 'out the circle ,stance" r tip of foot,
>
>
>
>
>
> faces center, not central
>
> -line>>>r sun fist, shortribs// r steps to the left,
>
> body turns toward opponent ,as the left steps back, and
>
> plants, the
>
> r forms 'into a
>
> r cat stance, r slap backof neck ,than l checks>>>r back
>
> fist bonebutton, at back
>
> of neck,r grips??shirt ?? r side kick back of knee>>>hands pullin
> ,lunge forwards, into
>
> r bow,
>
> and two-outward' palm
>
> push 2kidneys///l skips forward ,land
>
>
>
> in l front t-stance, r knee at kidney area, and rfoot at
> groin>>>>so hes facedown and your on his back>>>>l steps
>
> out, do
>
> the hop shufflestep"""basically a skipping action to turn him over with your feet to his left shoulder""turn opponent > > > over, at end of
>
> hop, r
>
> side kick face, r plants down to a > > > r t-stance--opponent
> laying,
>
> outside of
>
> your rleg, > > > r palm/klaw face, l plant smother face, and
>
> r sun
>
> fist, groin>>> r rip up front, of
>
>
>
> op's body,turn ,and cover/////neutral stance- go the other way.....thats the first set pretty friendly eh
:eek: :rolleyes: :D :p :( :o :) ;)

[diego]

cover..#2
>
>
>
> vs right punch> > > > >left outside stepinto left bow-stance left pak sao double punch ""r then left chamber between each punch"
>to
> shortribs cont.flow right grab shoulder&
>
>rsidekick knee and flow right roundhouse kick to stomach with shin or groin with toes and then left chop back of neck while r foot steps down so your in a left crane stance and pull down with your right while left chop....that is #2>

and you face 12 throughout step r isto 3 and l to 9 generically at the end you turn and face 6 and start over "up and down"sidetoside type set...

[HopGar]

I'll check it out later...I'll let ya know if I can make anytihng outta this one.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[diego]

just to convey the attitude behind my style.
the next set is similar and the rest are more skill development,i would say the first two-sets develop the fighting-attitude;there are thirteen sets i know of ten empty/hand the soft/hard of hopga and the broadsword and pole.

so think of hitting an opponent as you read the set,it is just you facing 12oclock and 7opponents rush in 1by1.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Kong,

Could you kindly send my respects and best wishes to kevin Kaley and Grandmaster Ku next time you train?

Best Regards,

Steve Richards.

[diego]

Friday
Member

From: Australia
Registered: 08-06-01
Posts: 50
Re: training against 'freezing'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hi diego,
if you would like I will ask my sifus in Pak Hok Pai this question and see what they think.

I can't guarantee this is 'traditional methods'though.

[diego]

the first is hau kuen a kajukenbo set
mainly training basic karate style techniques like outward deflects and bowstance horizontal fists and elbow smash/grion strike/backfist face techs. just basic + feetplay pattern(turn around kick drop down deflect strike move forward manuevars)

then theres the first as described and the second both kajukenbo/hopga sets detialing for the practitioner a goodportion of the strentghs in a streetbrawl.

the third i would say adds ging to the hau kuen basicframes from the ferocity of the 1&2 SET MENTALITYS interspersed.

the fourth is dragon dance many clawstrikes with the thumb index and middle nails
with verying feetplay and high/low manuevars--aka leaps and grounddrops...side note from the kajukenbo your empty hand must always be a closedknife at basic then the empty hand is pakua relaxed with the dragon claw set to coil, similar to how hungga uses the index salute.

the next one is i would say power manuevars like singlehandpalmup deflects roll into claw to face(like dealing with a 1-2 step mentality like grab and knockout)

the next two get into fluidity like slash knee to tornado kick face or spear throat and drop backheel kick to opponents leg like shadow technique.

then the soft/hard set 1at half slowcoil similar to a taichi then second part whipping flurrie technique similar to a pakua.

9&10 from my limited know-how i would say is advanced feetplay to build your jings
like if i was to try some of the sections allout in fullrep i would probably snap my spine.

then the staff and broadsword.


theres the warmup and im told originally 44 combos

but thru the future students theres much more synthesized with varying methods etc.

theres also breathing exercises 6-8??
i learnt two ones a crane and the other i think mantis

[friday]

hi sorry diego
forgot all bout that. shouldve asked him that while talking on the phone.
but anyway,
what i know some of what they do is,

conditioning exercises, standard training stuff. punching kicking bags, and a lot of sparrring. u need to experience getting hit.

part of not freezing is understanding fuly the applcation of techniques. and utilising them in sparring. with gloves and safey restrictions, some techniques u won't ever use in sparring. also applying and being taught particular techniques that are relevant to confrontational situations. being grabbed by the collar, being cornered, fighting numerous opponenets from differnet angles etcetc

another matter is understanding your styles conceptual thinking. the theory and fighting principles behind the style. if you learn lions roar, one of the most importatnt things is to remember in a dangerous situation to be chan.

basi fighting princiles which can becommon among differnt styles
is

benefits of continuous striking...once you hav tem on their backfoot don't let up.

another is lead to the east strike to the west??? i can't remember how to sy that exactly but u get it right? Part of this is make your opponents thnk u are cooperating, or are trying to make peace. if that won't get u out and they continue to be a threat, surprise them.

also a way to upset opponents is to attack their foundation, Pak Hok Pai has a leg technique used when up and close that breaks legs. i tried it on a few ppl. they always start looking at the ground. don'treally want to break heir legs o even hit hem ther. i use it tttttttdistracthem. when theyre too busy looking at teir legs...finish hem with the arrow punch, strikes to the face,etc....when they look up its too late

also i am probablyteling u tuff u may already know. anyway this is it for now :)

cheers,

888

[HopGar]

lee sing, no prob. I'll tell them on Wed. night.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[Steven T. Richards]

khong,

Thanks, kevin has been a great friend.

cheers,

Steve Richards.

[friday]

Hi Diego,

no response??

does anyone else have any ideas on training against freezing? How about Steve? What do you do in the combined lionsroar-mantis style?

I sparred in Hong Kong once with some tae kwan do ppl. it was pretty silly. ended up being a 50:50 outcome. My sifu told me that I shouldn't spar tae kwan do ppl with tae kwan do rules. He told me i was asking for defeat. My sifu told me if i ever fight anyone i should tell them i fight with my own rules, you fight with yours. hahaha...not sure that will work that well.
I also experienced a lot of freezing then
mainly due to the fact i was told i couldn't do a lot of things. effectively, no paos ( i m pretty tall any paos i would do would have to also drive up their chest into their faces, heads), no chou (fisthook), no cups, no bins (any bins would end up in their face). Tae Kwan do is mainly kicks, at least in sparring. They did pretty well against me.

anyway someone spoke to me a few months ago who does wing chun. he is trying to set up a group of CMA who just meet to chat about MA and put together some money to buy equipment to spar with each other. i thought it was a pretty good idea. hope to meet him soon. I reckon this will help against freezing plus give me mor experience sparring different styles.

keep everyone updated when this happens.
:)
by the way Diego is right...time to liven things up in this post. its getting boring. :)

888

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Friday,

Wasn't all that sure what you meant by 'freezing' do you mean the trance like state of resignation and defeat that occurs in prey animals - like an African Zebra caught in a Lion's jaw - and simply relaxes into its fate? Or, do you mean a technichal 'log-jam' in being unable to process the combat situation effectively enough as too many 'techniques' line up for expression and clog your ability to do anything?

My view about practical fighting is that principles should lead and not techniques, if techniques shape you then you are not really in there at that moment. If you are principle led then appropriate techniques are released - its like 'fire and forget' technology in a helicopter gunship. Same with processing target information, if you've read that book yet you'll see what is effectively a HUD (head-up display) based on the shape and movement dynamics of the human form (shape). That is all you need perceptually - laid onto the target and guided by principles - techniques are fired without conscious thought.

It's 'ragged edge' stuff. Most people how ever well trained are similar in reflexes (check out Formula 1 grand Prix drivers)and linear a - b speed is similar too. the difference is in cognitive mapping, that gives the best fighters the edge.

Best Regards,

Steve Richards.

[Gum Gong]

Right you are.Techniques are only as good as the principles they are rooted on.Breathwork,Bridgework,Focus,Timing,Centering.Th ese principles make make useless techniques effective.

Jonathan Moore

[diego]

im sure you all have to with the attack on america etc

my brians all over the place right now
so i'l get into this inna bit.

[friday]

Hi Diego,

Sorry to see what happened to NY city and Washington. I hope they find the scum who did this. But at the same time, I hope no one uses this as a reason to discriminate other non-extremist, law-abiding muslims, arabian, Palestinians or just people of middle eastern origin in America, Australia etc.
I don';t think that is fair.
I think people shouldn't forget this. If we start persecuting people just because they are of middle eastern origin or muslims etc i don't think we are setting a good example especially when many of these ppl had nothing to do with and certainly would not support the terrorist action in America.

Hi Steve,

what i meant by freezing is basically being not sure what i should do, not being active rather being reactive. not any trance like state.

also principles are important but if you haven't trained your techniques well, they won't be very spontaneous. because you won't know how to use them or execute them properly.etc.

regards

888

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Friday,

Many thanks for the clarification. Fighting is a trance state in the proper definition. It isn't a usual state of relaxed conscious awareness but involves a whole chemical cocktail and associated psychological states some of which have learned elements to them, and others instinctive autonomic aspects. In the broader sense of 'trance' - academically speaking - what you describe would qualify. There is a whole load of work been done on SDMLB - 'State Dependent Memory Mearning and Behaviour',which you may find relevant. Most of us still think that 'trance' is something done to people by stage hypnotists - which it isn't. It's rather like any area of specialised knowledge including these martial arts, what the common 'knowledge' about it is, and what the realities are, are usually very different. I must say (and I'm not referring personally in any way at all here to you)that there exists a very common prejudice that people 'know' what a trance state is - in fact its the usual belief people have they have a tacit knowledge of psychology without any need for any kind of specialist knowledge or training. it seems to come from the fact that people trust their perceptions and have a difficulty standing outside of them, which is a major prerequisite of psychological development. You get many examples of this in the martial arts where in some qurters 'cults' of various kinds flourish, with the members totally taken in not only by the beliefs of the cult leaders but also by their owm tacit beliefs about their psychological insight status.

I accept that you have a valid viewpoint and that you have expressed it well over techniques and principles. Nevertheless, my own long experience in teaching has shown that the most efficient transmission of an art lies in its principles and not its techniques. The techniques, if they express those principles will work very well as they are not then isolated or otherwise abstracted chunks of movements, but guided efficiently by those principles. In my Mantis teaching, I've found it better to teach to no more than 2 to 4 (maximum) people at a time as that is necessary in order to make the principles manifest in the student. A larger group means that techniques can be robotically practiced, but understanding falls off, and the result is a failure when pressure tested.

Principles also form the conceptual 'field' which organise the abstracted movements that we otherwise call 'style'. Without those principles, there is in effect no style simply a dessication of movements. the immanence of principles in the manifest structure and geometry of technique eqautes with the 'art' as expressed at a unique moment by each one of us as 'martial artists'.

Best Regards,

Steve Richards.

[friday]

Hi Steve,

you are correct. I have just never thought of these things as being separate or necessarily better than each other.
The techniques are moulded around the principles of a style. Just like how whipping motion of techniques simultaneously generate more power and at the same time avoid attacks and reduce the target available to opponents are part of 'sim' (avoid) principle and 'chuen' (pierce).

anyway thats it for now

ttyl

888

[Gum Gong]

Very well stated Steve.

We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet
our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass
away.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Friday & Gum Gong,

Many thanks, and Winter is just an interval between Springs...

[diego]

we all dashed and the 60 pounds of equipment on my back wasnt noticeable..

like fight or flight of the wild kingdom

it would be nice to be able to trigger that focus at will

any ideas


like i was late for work underslept and i had to jog thier but sleepy i stopped every three blocks even though i was late

if a pitbull was chasing me i wouldnt have stopped

any ideas

what is bieng triggered before that adrenaline rush making you fullbody kungfu

[friday]

hmmmm....I have no idea, i think Steve is the person to ask about this sort of thing.

isn't this a mind over matter thing?

888

[diego]

if im overworked , tired i cant get up

you throw a baseball at my head im going to catch it

[Gum Gong]

It's all about will power.When the wtc collapsed all that guy would think about was getting out.Nothing else mattered.If a pitbull were chasing you nothing else would matter except getting away.You would have the will to survive.
How far past "uncomfortable" do you go in your training? That might be a refrence point as to where your "everyday" will to survive.

[friday]

Hi guys,

do any of you do any internal training?

what does lions roar internal training consist of?

i know that there is the soft cotton needle set of which there are 7 sets combined together to form the one continuous set.

yin/yang Jerng (basic chi development using palms)

Dar Jor (seated internal training)

there probably is some more anyone have any ideas?

888

[Gum Gong]

We have 2 parts to our cotton needle set.One half that is the general Plum Blossom pattern that alot of diffrent arts do and the other half that is strictly in White Crane.We also haveYi Chuan,Mi Chuan jand Yang style Tai Chi.

[Gum Gong]

Since the Lions Roar was created by Tibetan monks,I'm guessing that there inernal training was more tantric.Probably Lam Rim (spirit)training.Back in the day Lions roar was used to quiet ones mind then Lam Rim was used to achieve higher states of mind.So in essence a true "warrior" was created.One who had complete control over his mind and could kill with his hands.

Jon Moore

[Songwind]

Hi all, just wanted to chime in. I studied Tibetan white crane with Terry Wisniewski in Siloam Springs, AR for about one and a half years a few years ago. We've moved about 400 miles so I'm obviously not training there anymore. =) Nice to see some white crane brothers online.

Eric

[Gum Gong]

Hello Eric,
I think I remember you.My name is Jon.I studied with Terry for a while.I think I may have seen you out there on occasion.

Jon Moore

[diego]

and curriculum.please

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[friday]

Hey everyone apparently the rumour is that Cheung Kwok Wah Sifu is coming to Australia with Grandmaster Chan Hak Fu soon.
wow!!!! two kung fu legends in White Crane Kung Fu coming to Sydney

888

[Gum Gong]

Here's most of our curriculum:

I. Pak Hok Kuen
1) Luk Gong Kuen
basic
shovel
iron horse
shovel/kick
flying crane
2) Chit Yap Bo Kuen
gin choi
pow choi
gup choi
chow choi
jaow sau
3) Tiet Lien Choi Kuen
II.Jun Tso Jhr Kuen
1)Big Gum Gong Kuen
2) Small Gum Gong Kuen
3) Golden Bill Kuen
4) Fighting Four Kuen
5) Round I Kuen
6) Round II Kuen
7) Cotton Needle Kuen
8) Baton Kuen
9) Five Brothers/Staff Kuen
10)Devil Wind Blows Sword Kuen

III. Hop Gar Kuen
1) Chyrn Why Kuen (Blind Man Kuen)
2) Sim Bo Dan Ji (Nomad Kuen)
3) Hop Gar Kuen
4) Lion

Jon Moore

[friday]

Hi Jon,

Doesn't your curriculum also have Luohan kuen?

Friday

888

[diego]

by illustrating what you know as forms in pakhok/hopga etc,and the cronological order of each sets creation,like say the first lama monks system was all about the 8s/punches/claws kicks etc.what forms did he study and what came next..if you guys could map out the sets from what is written at david rosssifus lama pai site;history section.

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[swmngdragn]

Hi, Jon.

I'm going to suggest that you spend more time in training, and the least possible time on the computer...... Or I'll tell your sifu Terry to whup your a$$. ;)

Best regards,
R. Drake Sansone
(swmngdragn@home.com)
http://www.liuhopafa.com/
"Train, or go to hell." Terry W.

[Gum Gong]

No we don't have luohan.The school that Ron Dong has in San Fransisco is where we origionated(from George Long),and I belive they teach arhat which is luohan kuen.

Jon Moore

[Gum Gong]

Drake, Terry says straighten up,and your full of Sh**.

Jon Moore

[HopGar]

I'm baaack...

So I can now rejoin the discussion after two weeks of being real busy (jewish holidays and stuff and it ain't over yet..gimme untill next week..)

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[HopGar]

Hey Diego, after next week, I'll finish the email I started months ago..I finally have some time on my hands....

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[swmngdragn]

Jon,

Tell Terry that I know he still loves me, and that I'm baaaaaaaack. I'm back training after my loooong layoff. I'm still not 100% recovered, but I'm getting better each day. Should be back to where I was prior to my injury within six months, or so. Made some interesting discoveries about myself throughout this setback. Physical therapist thinks I'm insane. Wife just thinks I'm nuttier than usual. :D

Best regards,
R. Drake Sansone
(swmngdragn@home.com)
http://www.liuhopafa.com/
"Train, or go to hell." Terry W.

[friday]

Hi just wondering what injuries u sustained and how u went about trying to recuperate. I have a personal interest in this as i m currently 'injured'.

thanks

888

[swmngdragn]

E-mail me, and I'll be happy to respond. :)

Best regards,
R. Drake Sansone
(swmngdragn@home.com)
http://www.liuhopafa.com/
"Train, or go to hell." Terry W.

[Gum Gong]

How did you get injured Friday?Waht is your condition now.Mabye I can help. :p

Jon Moore

[friday]

Hi Jon

my injuries probably started off as minor injuries...caused by training 4-6 hrs a day 5-6 days a week for two months.

mainly relating to the wrists and knees

Regards

888

[Gum Gong]

I would be willing to bet that it didn't start bothering you until you slowed it down a bit.That's how it usually works.What kind of leg training do you do through out the week?That might be the root of your knee problem.Do you do alot of bridge building exercises?I know a little about body mechanics and might be able to help you.

Jon Moore

[diego]

FOR THE LAST 5 YEARS I ALMOST GET INTO SERIOUS STUDY AND A TRAGEDY STRIKES THATS MY INJURY

i have done nothing but work and have fun since 911

now i trian now we chat

good//no??

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[diego]

my instructor was my moms boyfriend and thier was crazy domestic violence in my household when we stopped training
at the end of a crap 5year period i ended up with 13 stitches in my head

for two weeks i was bored but had to train so i would go really slow and only did bagwork
if i got excited the stitches would stretch

after they came out i realized how much i internalized my method

hurt is a good teacher even now i cant approach my kung with as much focus as when i got hit
thiers to much ego and enjoyment of inmymindseye from the mysty--ism of wow im doing kf

but when hit im all for real theres the bag strike

hopefully i can channel that attitude because that is something you cannot pay for and its simmilar to that wjm fight bruce lee had and he realized he had to focus on his conditioning and get real

this is scattered post but its good just a couple subjects we will in the future clarify

time for sleep

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[friday]

my training.

some basic footwork movements.
gei boon kuen - basics six strengths, etc...
form work over and over...
da jong...
bag
weights
stick form training
stretching...
theory, application etc...

and with the wrist problem i didn't actually notice anything until coming back to australia for a after a few weeks training. my knee problem was something that i noticed particularly when i came back.

regards,

888

[Gum Gong]

When you do kicks,do you keep your leg completely loose all the way til the end,or do you tighten up your leg at the last instance.

Here are the leg excercises that I do.
-Drollo horse-feet together,thighs paralell to the floor,hands together in lama bow.
5 sec break
-grab one foot and hold it out in front of myself and do 20 squats going down until my thigh is paralell.switch feet
5 sec break
3 min Iron horse-feet about 3 feet apart,toes pointed out on 45 degrees,arms straight out to my sides as if pushing on two walls,thighs paralell to the floor.18 breaths(aproximately 3.5 sec. a breath)equals 1 min.

You can substitute the squats for 200 shovels(thighs paralell,back plum with floor)

Friday this is the leg training that I do every day I train(about 5-6 days a week),and my knees are rock solid.

Alot of times if you tweak something out during training and don't give it sufficient time to heal
it won't for a long time.Remember that healing yourself is training also.You have to be able to heal yourself before you can heal others.
Your body is it's own entity and it will tell you if it can't train that day,all you have to do is listen.Anyways that my $.02.

Jon Moore

[diego]

do you train lama exercises that use wieghts.

anybody know about any traditional exercises.

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[diego]

how do you stay loose right through and whats the differance.

and khong you ready 2chat OR WHAT

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[diego]

can we discuss the term meteor fist

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[Gum Gong]

diego I tighten at contact too.If you remain completey loose you get a little more umph on your kicks but it's devastating on your knees.

Jon Moore

[diego]

did he learn bak hok also from another sifu

i failed to realize you have a link to harry ng

would you like to exchange techs on email possibly video??.

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[friday]

Hi Jon,

my leg training? sei ping ma (the horse stance)
chin gong hou jin (goong bo)(forward horsetance). squats. footwork.
lion dancing

also in terms of weight training - both
in particular there is a strange type of weight my si jo Ng Siu Zhong used to train with that looks a bit odd but is a very good training tool. My sifus also teach me different weight training exercises with conventional weights.

in terms of meteor fists i think that David Ross's article covered that...am i correct?


regards,

888

[friday]

when i kick my knees, legs are loose.

888

[Gum Gong]

diego,

He learned Pak Hok from George Long,who was the first guy Chan Hak Fu sent over here to the U.S.A. from Hong Kong.Although Dr. Long is deceased
you can see his school at www.whitecranegungfu.com (http://www.whitecranegungfu.com)
.I would definatly be interested in exchanging techniques.There was a lot of disdain towards Dr Long from the White Crane Federation because he trained extensivly in Hop Gar and secretly intergrated it into keuns trying to bridge the gap
between the two styles,and it showed in his fighting style. He was calling it Jun Tso Jhr.Dr Long was a genuis.When he started his school there were a lot of things shrouded in secrecy in Pak Hok,for instance the fighting circle.Traditionaly you wouldn't learn the fighting circle for 10 years or so unless you were a close disciple,but Dr Long wanted to create fighters.His first Si Hing was a black guy and back in the 60's that was a big no-no to the chinese,so Dr Long takes his Si Hing to Hong Kong
and is met at the airport and immediately challenged and won'hands down' the confrontation so they had to let him continue teaching though they didn't like it.That's just a little history of where my stuff comes from.


Friday, just as you kick reaches full extension tighten up your quadracept muscle and your foot.That will cinch up the tendons around your knee protecting it from damage when you kick.

Jon Moore

[diego]

send me a hello todd4@angelfire.com put your sig in subject and i'l resend.

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[friday]

Hi Jon, thanks for that i will keep that in mind.
by the way, i have noted the curriculum that is taught from Dr Long's lineage and also your earlier comment about how Dr Long was integrating Hop Gar into the Pak Hok that he had learnt. I would conclude therefore that the curriculum he teaches would be quite different from the Pak Hok curriculum that I am now learning.
I don't wish to offend u, but i believe the sets, kung fu of Pak Hok Pai is of a greater size than the curriculm that u have posted...do u think i would be incorrect that the forms etc that u posted is incomplete? Also having visited that site...some of the forms names are similar and some are different these could of course be merely differences in names rather than differences in the actual set itself. I think it would be very interesting for the both of us when we meet one day. Also having spoken with some ppl did the pak hok in san fransico recently (within the last two months or so) have some sort of event? anniversary or something?
some world wide pak hok event is being currently organised for late 2002 year . an event i will likely be going to. If u or your sifu would be coming it would be a good opportunity to meet up.

regards,

888

[friday]

hi jon again
sorry from your previous post i was not able to determine how to go about using those training techniques. would u be able to explain it again.

thanks and sorry for any inconvenience.

friday

888

[Gum Gong]

Friday,
To my knowledge there are only a few sets that are origional sets.I know that six strengths set dates back about 600 years and I think that chit yap bo and tiet lien choi date back about 400 years.Dr long's school is a pak hok school they just have a few kuens that he made up.I would bet that your sifu's teacher picked up a few techniques here and there from other people,and possibly made up a kuen also.Some of the kuens you do may have been made up only 1 or 2 generations back but were accepted by the grandmasters so you never new that they were'nt origional. After all they were all made up by someone.That's the beauty of white crane it's such an open ended art it has been growing for 600+ years and will continue to grow as long as people are willing to let the art reveal itself to them and be innovative.There are a lot of good arts out there or they wouldn't have lasted this long,but some are superior,and "Tibetan" arts are in the superior class.I've noticed that some pak hok schools teach five animals and I know that that's not original pak hok

Which training techniques were you talking about?

Jon Moore

[Gum Gong]

Oh yeah,
All of Dr Long's sets were given that stamp of approval by Chan Hok Fu.So they are legitamate Pak Hok Kuens.

Jon Moore

[HopGar]

Diego, send me an email so I can send that huge email I started months ago, it just about done, at least what I'll do for right now. (Jewish holidays are finished for while...)

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[friday]

Hi Jon,
as for training techniques its the ones that u described in respect of strengthening the knees etc.

my sifu is a inner circle student of a number of people of that generation and also learnt for a period from Ng Siu Zhong.

the five animal forms is a modified version of shaolin forms that were actually a product of an exchange of techniques between Wong Fei Hung and ...someone in the Pak Hok Lineage which i m sorry to say i can't remember.

u are right it is a product of 'development' as for the original forms which were 6 in total i doubt that even Sing Lung was teaching only these 6 forms as Pak Hok in the beginning, by that stage it had already developed...

anyway i m sure a meeting between us would be very interesting for the both of us.

888

[Gum Gong]

Friday,
I'll try to explain these a little better.

Drollo Horse(comes from a Tibetan monk named Drollo Ga Tanga who was a dwarf and whos speciality was fighting up and down in a vertical fashion.Stand with your feet together with your hands at lama bow(palms together,about 5 inches in front of your chest,same elevation as your heart,forearms parallel with the ground).Next,keeping your hands the same and your feet together, squat down until your thighs are parallel with the ground.Keep your back straight also.Stand there as long as you can.Eventually you may feel that your knees are filling up.That's ok because you are stimulating an acupuncture point.K 1 I belive.

One leg squats-
stand on left leg.Grab right foot with left hand.Hold it out in front of you.squat down until your thigh is parallel to the ground.stand back up.Do as many as you can .switch legs.

Iron horse-
stand with your feet about three feet apart,with your toes pointed out at a 45 degree angle(left to the left,right to the right)squat down ,keeping your back straight and perpendicular to the ground,until your thighs are parallel to the ground.press your palms out to your sides as if pushing on two walls.hold that posture as long as you can.take a 5 second break between each excersise.

I hope that helps.

Jon Moore

[friday]

Hi Jon, thanks for that, i it is alot easier to understand.

i will give these are try when i m better.

regards,

888

[HopGar]

Hey Gum Gong,
Maybe the Churn Why Kurn (however you spell it) form came from guy who created the Drollo horse training. What do you think?

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[Gum Gong]

Hey Kong,
It's very possible.Do you guys do drollo horse training?What's your favorite Hop Gar drill?I Like tin sin choi yam and dan ji.

Jon Moore

[HopGar]

Actually most of our training is basically tibtan qigong and Hop Gar, although we also got some stuff with a mook jong - wing chun dummy, and with bagwork. Wanna translate that/describe it, I'm not familiar with the Chinese terms. I like doin moving pow choy/chin choy conbo's as well as Seven-star punch. Overkill, to say the least. :D ;) :)

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[HopGar]

yeah Gong Ji (Dan Ji?) is a fun one, just dont do that stance too low, if ya know what I mean - tired legs.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[diego]

from what you can see whats the differance between the lama styles,like does bakhok use more crane technique and hopga more ape

one thing i have noticed is hop ga gives you a noticeable bulk especially around the hips and triceps &that the techniques give you a strentgh similar to a powerlifter but with more flexibility
make sence

any tibetan stylists reading this whats your op

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[diego]

facing 12 hands in prayer,lift r knee and front kick to high sidekick to back kick"tigertail with bottom heel foot striaght,pull toes to your shin and extend heel"to low side kick;repeat ten times the four kicks all same leg'front to 12'sides to 3& back to 6..do say 3 reps alternate legs for 60 kicks with four kicks ten times inbetween ten reps,you should switch legs after ten cycles..to develop balance

stand in high horse in siu lam prayer right fist in left palm ....hold for a minute
go down a souple of inches hold for a minute down agian hold for two minutes.go all the way down in deep horse and hold as long as you can
stand up do light breathing ex....to build root

that was the stance training i was taught,dont know where it came from could be kajukenbo??

i like your method gumgong im going to vary

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[diego]

and it stated i wasnt logged on but i was

FRIG
I'L REPOST WHEN I GET UP

frign frigr fruq!

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[Gum Gong]

I like that kicking drill diego.I'm going to try it.On those 23soft hands you sent me what is the crane stance.There's a bunch I could put in there but I would like to know which one your using.


Whether or not Hop Gar uses more crane or ape is hard to say.It is however more of an agressive art.When you guys do a backfist do you roll back your fist exposing your knuckles?

Jon Moore

[HopGar]

sometimes we're told to snap them, but then again is not such a great idea b/c you could mess your wrist up. Otherwise, we just hit like a regular one, as much as I can tell anyway.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[Gum Gong]

Once you build up your wrists with bridge training it won't mess them up.what that does is facilitate a dim mak strike.If you do it while doing a gin choi you can "spot" someone with your knuckles.

Jon Moore

[HopGar]

thats true. I agree completely. By the way, whats your take on doin gong ji (dan ji?) with a lower stance than usual? Good exercize or not?
And, do ya know anything about Dragon-Tiger Staff Spear, and Da Mo Sword?

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[Gum Gong]

It's great excersise.It dosen't really give me a good burn anymore,but is still a great excersise.Those weapon sets, either Ku made them up or got them from somewhere other than hopgar.If I were you I would definately learn them because I'm sure there great sets (or he wouldn't have them)they're just not origional hopgar sets.

Jon Moore

[HopGar]

I'm going to - depends really on if my sifu stays or not, becuase its looking a bit like he's moving to SC, but hopefully that wont happen. But anyway, I agree completely.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[HopGar]

I just realized that they aren't Hop Gar. Whatever.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[Gum Gong]

That's ok though.Alot of White crane schools have some hungar,tai chi,yichuan,and drunken in them.That's the beauty of Tibetan martial arts they're very open ended.They are based on principles not techniques.It's those same principles that make the techniques effective.So in essence you can apply the training principles(breathwork,bridgework,centering,timing, focus)to any remotely similar art and make it fit what you're doing.Hopgar is mainly an external system of fighting but Ku Chi Wai has taken a Buddist chi gung and added it to his curriculum which turns it into an all around system.That's one example of a good addition to a system.In my school we have White crane,hopgar,yichuan,a little hsing i,yang style tai chi,eight drunken immortals,mi chuan,and deer boxing.White crane is the main system taught and the bridge to all these other things.I don't know how you guys train but I would suggest that you work on doing 10,000 of eack one of your techniques and drills and it will change who you are and you will also internalize your art,and it will start to reveal hidden things to you and you will start to understand how you can incorperate it into other things."All roads lead to the same mountain."Some are longer than others.Some are shorter than others but when you reach the mountain you die.With Tibetan arts you get to live on the mountain for a while before you die.Tibetan arts are from the white dragon family.They are a spiritual art from the rooftop of the world,the razors edge.They will empower you and at the same time(if you do 10,000's)humble you so you can be a warrior and at the same time live in a society where that empowerment may make some people a bit nervous.

Jon Moore

[HopGar]

When I train (when being the keyword), I do about 120 of everything and then more if I'm feelin really wild. I agree 100%.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[Gum Gong]

Try 400,including drills.That's what I'm talking about,but don't harm yourself.

Jon Moore

[Gum Gong]

You have to train past the point of muscle pain to experience what I'm talking about.

Jon Moore

[friday]

Hi everyone,

i m sure the tibetan ma like alot of ma 'develop' through sometimes the incorporation of tecchniques, chi gong, etc from other styles.

But I agree with my sifus. Pak Hok Pai is a complete system. that is not to say that nothing can be learnt from other styles of ma. From my knowledge of the Pak Hok Pai system and discussions with my sifus is that Pak Hok Pai already has its own internal sets. Does your sifus teach u the internal sets from lion's roar? or has taught u some of the internal sets form Shaolin?

Also with my understanding of the Pak Hok Pai weapons sets there are at least 18.

My only issue with all this is that it would perhaps be a good idea for students to know which sets are derived from which styles. Whether they are tibetan ma or Shaolin. if students are led to believe that certain sets are lion's roar but are in fact shaolin if u ever perform the set in a competition it would be best if u did not claim that it is a lion's roar set. Just as Pak Hok Pai sets are distinctively Pak Hok and not sets directly taken from other styles i m sure ppl from our pai would recognise a set that belongs to our pai being performed under a 'different' style.

particular sets of Pak Hok have 'developed' presunably from exchange of techniques or combining of particular principles just as jon said in his prior post. However, the distinctive Pak Hok or lIon's roar element can be seen from it. the lesser and greater five animal set altho derived from exchange and has its origins from Shaolin is still quite different. the Drunken 8 saints pak hok pai is also very different from the shaolin drunken 8 saints.

with all the secrecy that usually surrounds kung fu the only thing that bugs me is that students should be told what they are being taught to avoid confusion as to what styles they are in fact being taught and what form or technique is coming from what style etc.

I just think that it is important to me the origins of particular sets as they stand now. I do not wish to one day be claiming to teach a lion's roar set that is in fact a direct set i have taken from shaolin 'accidently'. It is also importnat not to take this as a criticism of your masters because i don't even know if they do this or not.

anyway
that was just something that bugged me and i wanted to say something about it

regards,

888

[Gum Gong]

Friday,I agree with you about knowing what's what,and where it came from.Our 8 drunken fairies set is very different from the shaolin version.I think you can have other stuff in you school also but as you said you need to know what's what.Un less your teacher has made a new style(which there's nothing wrong with that).What I was saying about pakhok being so openended was that you can add almost any technique in the world to our footwork and make it work.Our principles apply to everything and can make any system work.Take wing chun for example you could do all their strikes and techniques with our in/out step,or 5 star and make them work.That's what I was saying.Pakhok is a complete system after you do 10,000 of your six strengths(and I speak from experience)they start to become chi gungs.Plus we have cotton needle for internal training,so yes pakhok is a complete system.There are alot of great styles out there, or else they would've died out,but some are superior.Pak Hok is a superior system.I am of course biased,but I talked to Henry Poo Yee(southern mantis grand master)in an elevator once and he is very good friends with Chan Hak Fu and even trained Pak Hok for 5 years when he was younger.

Jon Moore

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Kong,

Grandmaster Ku is the lineage holder from Ng-Yim-Ming, and so IS HOP-GAR. Therefore, if he makes up a form it becomes Hop-Gar, if he teaches a set from another style in his syllabus, that set also becomes part of Hop-Gar. They are some of the privileges of being a lineage holder.

Jon,

FWIW, I tecah Souhern Mantis in the Jook-Lum tradition, not from GM Poo-Yee (whom I respect enormously along with GM Mark Foon as being the inheritors of Lam-Sang's lineage) but from Lee-Yin-Sing's family and Pai, as disciple to GM Lee-Sun-Wah son of Lee-Yin-Sing. I often teach Lion's Roar (after thirty years of training it) in a complementary way with Mantis - they work well together at least for me. I proved them in front line police work, as well as testing Wing-Chun, Hung-Gar and Nothern Shaolin. Lion's Roar and Mantis proved empirically to be the best street fighting styles - again at least in my personal experience.

There is an awful lot of 'pulp' KF out there, some good stuff too, but it is very, very rare. It can take decades to sort this out and many never do. The real 'answer' as such is 'in the hands'. If its 'there' it's real, if not...

One of my Wing-Chun teachers: Samuel Kwok (by ceremony) is the nephew of Luk-Chi-Fu (White Crane)and now disciple to Yip-Chun and Yip-Ching - Yip-Man's sons. We all find what suits us however good our 'family' lineage is. In my case the reverse choice would have been made. Even so one 'mameless' Wing-Chun master once told me that he 'Could use my White Crane to beat any Wing-Chun guy in the world'. That of course would never be admitted too but it was said to me.

Traditional Chinese arts are developing in the West and these coming decades will see an acceleration of the changes of the last three. Some of us will be at the forfront of these changes and some of us will be busy trying to be Chinese.

[friday]

Hi Steve,

if Grandmaster Ku was to take a shaolin form and teach that as Hop Gar. would u still feel the same way?

by that statement i m not suggesting he is...but wondering.

Also i m a bit confused. i have been to a website by David Chin i think he refers to himself as the representative or something of Hop Gar in America.
this lineage stuff in Hop Gar is a bit confusing. Who in fact is the lineage holder? Actually i had this problem with Pak Hok too when i came across the website of a sifu in Canada who alleges he is the representative of Pak Hok. It seems there are so many ppl claiming this and that.

its seems lineage holder, representative stuff is always very highly political. unfortunately, sometimes this chinese kung fu thing and sifus is all a bit depressing. i have actually had personal knowledge of two sifus that would depress a lot of ppl. but i m bound by 'chinese' tradition and 'respect' so i can say nothing. anyway,

thats it for now.

regards

888

[friday]

HI Steve,

no need to reply to my first question. after rereading your post i have found the answer.

the fact that u have combined PM with lions roar is not something i have a problem with.

as a student i would like to know the origins of a particular set if it is not from the style i think i m learning.

regards

888

[HopGar]

I believe, repeat, believe that my sifu is the standard bearer of the style, but I could be wrong, I think Ng Yim Min taught Chin only for a little while.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[diego]

is grandmaster ku the main lineage holder
and david chin is harry ngs main american representative i think thats what i read,you guys know,harry is my style so it would be useful for i to know. :D

i like that though he is hop ga
it reminds me or in my head echo's what the mc krs1 says
you are not doing HIPHOP you are HIPHOP
haha....regards

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[Gum Gong]

I wholeheartedly agree.There are many caught up in "playing kung fu" and few that are doing it for real.I suppose that reason being that most people don't want to change who they are,and seem,to themselves,to have a comfort zone which is impassible.To those people I have to say "crap or get off the pot".I guess everyone has there place in the arts though.Some don't have the will to train like they need to,but are excellent teachers,and some are the opposite.I personally am striving to be both.I have embarked on a path in which few will reach the goal but those who do will truely be peerless in there art.

On another note I think that southern mantis rocks.I feel that it is definately in the "superior"art class.Henry Poo Yee's guys are definately fighters.

Jon Moore

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello All,

I don't know David Chin, but, what I do know about GM Ku and kevin Kaley lead me to acknowledge Ku as GM of Hop-Gar.

If GM Ku were to teach a Bak-Siu-Lum set as part of his syllabus I would naturally accept it as such.

I do't speak on GM Ku's behalf of course and have no interest in political bickering. I am simply saying it as I see it. My Si-Fu's Si-Gung Chan-Fat-Fu knows GM Ku and that is good enough for me.

It is of course possible to have more than one GM of a Pai as every real Pai will diversify into branches (Darwin's Mantis's analogy).

As I understand it the Pak-Hok tradition is very well documented and well promoted. Other traditions within the Tibetan art less so, but they are equally valid as such. The diversity of the Lama art is its strength - we are all different, but from one root.

BTW - on the subject of original sets - in 1983 I watched a BBC TV documentary 'Way of The Warrior' - this particular episode was on the Indian Martial Art of Kalari (Battelground). To my absolute astonishment - I saw a tape of a Souhern India Village Kalari Master doing a form which was near identical to one of the Lion's Roar sets that I have from Chan-Fat-Fu: 'Sei-Lo-Fun-Dar - 'Four-Way-Separate-Attack'. The sequence, directions and technique were virtually identical - teh main difference was that the kalari Master used an open palm with extended thumb for techniques that Chan-Fat-Fu uses as'Bin-Choi' - Whipping backfist.

To my anthropologists eye - this was primary evidence for the influence of Indian martial arts on the Tibetan, and then the Chinese. The programme is on video tape and well worth viewing.

[HopGar]

What the name of the tape? I'd be interested in seeing it.

On a different note, how do you guys land a poi-e-sau, I usually land it as a backfist? What about y'all?

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Kong,

'The Way Of The Warrior' BBC Television (1983)
Episode: 'Kalari: The Indian way'.

It may not be commercially available. I can get a UK format PAL VHS copy.

[HopGar]

I'm gonna look around for it...I'll let ya know what turns up....sounds like a cool video.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[diego]

??

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[friday]

Hi everyone who has been participating in this forum post.

I am sad to inform everyone that i will no longer be posting any messages on this forum for a while due to personal problems i have to deal with.

Please continue posting your responses on this forum. it is always good to see friendly discussion between tibetan ma.

regards

888

[HopGar]

Diego, did ya get the email I sent with a couple ofthose tehcniuqes? Anyhow, lets get some stuff happening here. How do you guys throw a kaap choy - do you make sure to let your wrist snap on the way down or just throw it with a solid wrist? I personally think it would hurt much more if you snap the wrist.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[diego]

you do realize this is probably the only post that started good ,was trolled then grew.what happened to ego???

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[HopGar]

probably got bored and left

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[friday]

Hi everyone

what can i say my life is pretty messed up right now with problems at every point imaginable. But your're right Diego this is a good forum and i m glad to hear someone else aside from myself thinks so. :)
Kong, your Cup choi, u must know how to wun bo (twisting footsteps). stand in your goong bou stance (bow arrow stance) facing a fulllength mirror. bow arrow stance parallel to the mirror. Hold your arms in cup choi position, the side of your chest faces the mirror (excuse me if that is incorrect spelling). when your top fist comes down twist your whole stance with it such that your bow arrow stance faces the other side now. with the full twist of your whole body brings the greatest momentum and body weight to your cup choi.
tuck in your thumb in the lama fist. your face watches the front, u will always see whats in front do not let your face look to the side. your target is in front.
your wrist is strong when it comes down don't bend your wrist.
in your mind every strike think that there is a person in front, imagine your strike rides down their head, face, and chest. the key is in your twist for this basic.

hope this is of help

regards,

888

[friday]

Kong btw i have told u everything to that technique there is still something that will help it even further that your instructors may have told u

sorry i do not know any of u well so i have chosen not to tell u everything. there are subtleties even with a basic techqnique such as cup choi that u may be unaware of..

i hope this may change in the future (my position). i will never disclose everything until i have met u and determined whether it is suitable to show you things...in the same way my sifu has interviewed me. i hope u understand

thankyou

888