Life or sport- is there a training difference?

[zen_celt]

I recently started kickboxing at a local karate dojo to get in form for more serious fighting and tournaments. Physically, I'm in a lot better shape, but as far as kung fu technique...well... it's kickboxing. The training has made me a bit curious, though, about training in general, especially for ancient-true fighters, UFC, tournament/point fighters, and sport fighters(wrestling, boxing etc.) I was wondering how you would train yourself today for real combat in the ancient idea where it was a true life or death struggle and all hand-hand/close weapons(arrows not withstanding), and for sport(if they're even different for you).
-ZC

[SevenStar]

you train how you fight - full speed drilling and medium to hard sparring (only go hard once a month or so) would be standard practice. Forms to teach the basic structure and movement. calesthenics and weight training for muscular strength and endurance. various kung training - iron palm, iron shirt, etc. and soft qigong.

[Shadow Dragon]

Zen_Celt.

For me the difference would not be in the training method but in the cultivated mindset.
Most Competitions will fight until submission, ko or point advantage.

Now in real life you would either try to totally destroy/kill/maim the Opponent or try to inflict as little harm as possible while still controlling subduing the Opponent.

Modern Day Man has a conflict when it comes to MA, we are told/conditioned that it is bad to fight and hurt People, and many people got a mental block that prevents them from inflicting harm on other people.
This is often evident when you see some MA sparring.

This is also one of the reason why situations get out of hand when you add Drugs/Alcohol and the social barriers/checkholds start dropping.
This does not just count for violence, but also for sex, etc.

For me the differnce is between:
1.) Fight to win a price/money/prestige.
2.) Fight to destroy your Opponent.

But than what do I know about it.

Peace.

[ArrowFists]

What's most interesting is that during ancient times, warriors pretty much used the same methods of armed, and unarmed combat. Basically they sliced through all the crap and got to the basics. Styles begin to diversify when there's periods of extended peace. Such as the Tokugawa period, or the Manchu dynasty in China and Japan. This is where we see an explosion of styles, some practical, some absolutely silly.

Ever wonder why fighters in the NHB competitions all pretty much fight the same? Or that armies all over the world pretty much have the same training regimen? Its only about what works. There's no time to dance around like a fool when someone wants to take your head off.

That said, NHB events are the closest you can get to fighting in "real life". I was watching a videotape showing Judo self defense for women, and I can safely say that that is probably the most realistic self defense sequence I've seen.

[LEGEND]

Simple. Do what u have to do to prevent him from hitting u anymore. But if u want a stragedy i recommend HIT FIRST HIT HARD or VERBAL INTIMIDATION. Unfortunately passive reaction is looked upon as weak and may encourage further assault.

[gazza99]

"Ever wonder why fighters in the NHB competitions all pretty much fight the same? "

Nope, they tell you in the beggining what styles they have trained, all ive seen always did BJJ, submission fighting, MT, boxing, or wrestling... All of which are very similar and sport oriented.

Gary

[ArrowFists]

Originally posted by gazza99
"Ever wonder why fighters in the NHB competitions all pretty much fight the same? "

Nope, they tell you in the beggining what styles they have trained, all ive seen always did BJJ, submission fighting, MT, boxing, or wrestling... All of which are very similar and sport oriented.

Gary

Not true. Many NHB practicioners take styles as electic as Capoeira, or Mantis Kung fu. However, when it comes down to actually fighting, they have to go with what works. Frankly, dancing around like a bufoon isn't going to get the job done. And that's not just in the ring.

[gazza99]

"Not true"

Really? I havent seen all of the UFC fights, but I dont think you are in any position to tell me what I have and have not seen on the fight cards!

Im just being sarcasitic, I see your point, but not all other styles are as "electic as Capoeira, or Mantis Kung fu". Some are acually practical.

They have to fight within the rules, and of course will use what they trained most in. I have yet to see a fighter whose main style was "Capoeira", and perhaps for good reason! I hate to see dancing in a good fight!

Gary

[Mr Punch]

zen celt... if you're talking about training regimens for old style soldiers (medieval knights etc) from what I've read, many of those would seem as unrealistic as many of the martial arts nowadays are claimed to be...In early Europe anyway, basically lots of endurance building sword and shield swinging, kind of in turns...

They seem to have had some interesting contraptions though. I always liked the look of the jousting one that they actually used in some competition jousts: the little shieldy thing with the weight on the back of it, hung on a revolving er, thing, which would clout you a good one on the way back round after you'd hit it...!

I understand there are some of those kind of things used in some TCMA...? Anyone use any? Must be useful for sharpening up your reflexes for 'real life' or 'sport'.

On a side note, there's a couple of geezers in the Tower of London (can't remember their title... Black Jack's probably the one to ask) who's job it is to train in old-style ******* swords, maces, etc all day long, according to some ancient manual... that must be the coolest job in the world!!

[ArrowFists]

Originally posted by gazza99

They have to fight within the rules, and of course will use what they trained most in. I have yet to see a fighter whose main style was "Capoeira", and perhaps for good reason! I hate to see dancing in a good fight!

Gary

Well see, the rules shouldn't be a problem. Why can't say a Mantis stylist use his grabs and pressure-point strikes to put the mixed martial artists away? They have hand covering, but its nothing different than if you were fighting someone wearing a shirt, or a jacket. Especially since most NHB fighters are bare-chested.

[Mr Punch]

Relevance to thread?

Gazza: ditto.

Make your own ****ing thread.

[zen_celt]

Sevenstar- That sounds pretty much like what I was thinking. But, what do you do on any given day and how much of it do you do? For instance, in kickboxing, a typical day is 16 rounds or so. 3 of shadowboxing in the mirror to warm up and clean technique(whatever we're told to work on- in my case jabs, crosses, footwork-and practice combinations). Followed by 3 rounds of heavy bag work for either hands or feet, 3 rounds of the other one, 3 rounds combined, 3 rounds drill(dodge the tennis ball/focus gloves) or double end bag, and then jump rope, and or hand-eye coordination. Sparring every few weeks unless a fight is coming up. Add to that a required 500 crunches in sets of 25 every day, jogging, and weightlifting(emphasis on reps). We also do pushups and squats(lots of them).

I look at this and think about how different it would be if I were to train full time for a sport where more than fists and feet were used(muay thai, UFC etc) and wonder what would be changed. How does a grappler work out etc.?

Then I think of how a person training for the life or death situation trains, or should train. Conditioning-would it be different? More cardio, weights, what? Definitely the various kung would be involved. And forms because of all that they offer in terms of balance, technique, focus etc. But do these get tacked on to the above regimen or replace something. It also comes down to basics, you have to train the punches and the kicks indefintely for endurance, power, and technique, but to train all techs/strikes/blocks, every day would take forever. There's also no way you'd use them all in a fight. So how do you choose? I train my side kick in KB a lot because I'm good at it. But should I also do the other stuff or just that with my limited time? It would almost seem as if training for mortal combat takes up your whole day.

I guess it comes down to what Shadow Dragon said; it's about mental attitude. In the end, you either knock out the opponent, or destroy the attacker.

When you take on a new mindset, though, wouldn't you're training change as well? A fighter and a performer do the same form and they look different, feel different, and have a different emphasis. So wouldn't the training?
-ZC

[Shadow Dragon]

zen_celt.

Here is my humble viewpoint.

I still think that the training regime might be similar, but the emphasis and goal would differ.

In a Life threatening situation you usually cannot get a 2nd shot or 2nd chance.
So you would train your techs(kicks/punches/etc) to be spot-on 100 out of 100 times(best case scenario).
In a Competiton you can make good on some mishaps, but that chance often does not exist in real-life.
Also your opponent is not trying to kill you, you can afford to take a few shots.

One of the reason why traditional Fighting methods lay so much more emphasis on basics, drills and forms training may it be western or eastern.
Welsh Archer training took a few years.

Yes, TMA also often trained specific aspects if they knew what their Opponents weak/strong points were.

Also if you train for real life, you cannot afford to get injured during training as you never know when you would need it.
The best Fighter cannot defend himself properly if he has got an injury from the previous days training.

Also remember that in a real life situation you fight "cold" no warmup, pre-stretching, etc.
You might be able to pull all the moves off due to adrenalin rush, but at the same time you would damage your body, could rip tendons, etc.

Time to jump of the Box now.
Rant over.

Peace.

[zen_celt]

I take both karate and kickboxing at the same dojo from the same instructor. In karate, we do two man forearm conditioning drills, all kicks and punches, and T'n'C(kciking each other's torsos to toughen up). Why don't we do that in kickboxing? If the idea is to get tougher so as to take more pain, why not do it when it's probably more likely to happen consistently in the ring? We also do self-defenses, like "here's how you deal with a rear choke." Why isn't there any "this is how to counter a rear leg roundhouse" in kickboxing? I'm just trying to figure out the answer to why is something more important in one class than the other when the reason for its necessity is shared by the two?
-ZC

[zen_celt]

Shadow Dragon- I see your point about injury. I have often wondered how I'm supposed to defend myself walking to the car or other destination at night after a workout when I'm just trying to stand due to fatigue. As far as the "defending yourself cold" idea is concerned; if you're engaged in combat with more than one person and you hurt yourself executing a tech, you're screwed, adrenaline or not(unless you get lucky or creative). When I think of ancient or traditional martial artisits, I think of the professional body guard or soldier or monk. Men and women who needed their skill on call 24-7 because they might need to fight 1-10 people on a moment's notice. They had to train daily to keep proficient, so what did they do?
-ZC

[Shadow Dragon]

Zen_Celt.

My point about injury being is that if it happens you won't know about till the adrenalin rush wears off. Saw it happen in real life, friend fought ina Pub was ok, went home, spend the next 4 Days limping with an ice-pack to the inner thigh. :P

Even the Imperial Bodyguards in China did not train full-time.
Those full-time training people are a myth and stuff of legends. :D
The Bodyguards also had a lot of other duties.

Also remember that there were many of those professional Bodyguards, Soldiers or whatever so the loss of one or a few had no real impact. They worked roosters just as todays modern equivalent.

Good point about being fatiqued after training. If you train correctly you should not get to a stage where you cannot defend yourself anymore.
If you are too fatiqued you need to re-evaluate your training regime and make adjustements.

Peace.

[SevenStar]

ZC, we did do those drilling scenarios when I was in Muay Thai. we would learn different reapsonses to certain techniques and drill them. repeatedly.

Matter of factly, that's how we train in bjj also, kinda. we drill different techs over and over, then roll. when we roll, we try to use what we just drilled. Since there are so many possibilities and so many counters, scenario training is common.

In MT, we also did conditioning drills similar to what you mentioned in the karate class. The main thing to consider with classes nowadays is time constraints. you may not have time to do certain things all the time. That's when doing them on your own comes in. For example, in my longfist class, we do 3 star drills very rarely. I either work them solo on a vertical solid surface, or find someone to do them with me.

back to bjj, here's a typical class

15 mins warm up drills - shrimping, etc
60 mins drilling and technique work. during that time, we learn one or two techs and drill them

1 - 3 hours rolling

we do that 4 times a week.

here is our typical judo class

30 mins matwork
30 mins technique
30 mins randori

I train judo at 2 different schools - the main school (I'm there twice a week) only has 1.5 hour classes. On Monday nights in bjj, we focus on judo (we have 2 black belts there, and they teach judo on monday) the bjj class times are longer, so you can add 10 - 15 mins to the above, plus we do drills to increase speed and strength.