sensitivity training

[rubthebuddha]

i know a few arts have their own flavor of sensitivity training, but i'm curious about the comparisons/contrasts. i have naught but wing tsun for my basis, and i'm curious what else is out there.

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, we have sensitivity training.

We call it BJJ. I called it Wrestling in High School and College. Oh, and Kano called it Judo.

[SevenStar]

agreed. grappling develops excellent sensitvity, and gives you pretty good knowlegde of how the body moves.

And wrestlers use pressure points - I found that out in judo yesterday while grappling with one.

[TaoBoy]

i train chi sao and tui sao for sensitivity in spm. probably not too dissimilar (sp?) to wc/vt/wt.

[black and blue]

What's tui sao?

[red5angel]

I was sent to sensitivity training here at work. I got all excited about doing some chi sau and stuff and instead we had to get all touchy feely and and talk about how it is ok to be differentin the workplace.........

[apoweyn]

rubthebuddha,

in FMA, we have hubud. there are several variations, but they're all relatively similar to chisao. two people facing one another, block, parry, counter, block, parry, counter. maintain contact. try to read your opponent's movements by tactile prompts.

differences? i don't know enough about chisao to say, honestly.


stuart b.

[SevenStar]

some flavors of kuntao use hubud also.

[rubthebuddha]

coo. now how systematized are they? what i mean is, do you have a set response for individual techniques (if this technique, then that technique), or are they more principle driven (as in, if something comes on the oustide of our arm with energy going away from the elbow, we bong sau, but it doesn't matter if it's a jab, cross, tiger claw, palm, eye gauge, etc., we still bong sau.

please keep in mind that this is pure curiosity and has nothing malevolent behind it. i'm trying to fill an gap i have in my knowledge about sensitivity and red5angel won't give me another hug. :(

[red5angel]

Ap - what is hubud? I have never heard of it before now? LOL! rubthebuddha! Sure I will I got all the hug and pat training I will ever, EVER need! ;) Besides, us WC guys are never afraid to get a little closer......

[apoweyn]

rubthebuddha,

i'd say it's principle driven. in a nutshell, A takes a horizontal swing at B. B blocks it, transfers it up and over, checks it with one hand, and counters with the other. A blocks that counter with both hands, transfers it up and over, checks it...

that horizontal swing can be a ridgehand, a knifehand, a haymaker, a stick swing, etc. the important thing isn't the hand formation or weapon, but the angle and energy.

variations include a straight shot (jab or cross), a lower transfer (rib height), a followup elbow strike to the opponent's tricep, etc. Pretty much anything could be introduced into the flow (within reason).


red5angel,

see above. the full name is hubud lubud. and if i'm not mistaken, it means, roughly, "to tie and untie."


stuart b.

[red5angel]

Is it one specific drill or a series of drills? What system is that?

[apoweyn]

it's a series of drills i suppose. though they don't necessarily get taught in any particular order. perhaps a collection of drills is a better description.

they can be found in various filipino martial arts, including (as SevenStar pointed out) kuntao.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

Cool, thanks for the info. If you know of a site or two with vids let me know!

[apoweyn]

ask and ye shall receive: http://www.trainingblades.com/vidclips1.htm

it has rick tucci performing single stick hubud, for starters.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

You the man AP! It looks very much like that sensitivity training I am familiar with!

[apoweyn]

[blush]

i do alright.

have a look at the various palisut knife drills as well. lots of good sensitivity training there too.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

Yep, it looks like a good link all around and when I get some time tomorrow I am going ot have to go through it in detail!

A question on the stick training - Not to offend, but it looks like many martial arts weapons training type stuff, fun but not as applicable in real life as one would like to think ( I could be way off here so excuse my ignorance). Does it help you at all in your empty hands practice as well? how so?

[apoweyn]

no offense taken. it's a good question.

i've emphasized less weapons work over the years (ironically enough) because, in part, i agree with you. they just don't have a lot of relevance in my daily life. fisticuffs doesn't either, obviously. but i can at least envision a scenario in which it might, whereas i don't picture getting into too many stickfights.

that said, if ever i did, i'm not going to regret having even a rudimentary knowledge of the impact weapon, both in terms of offense and defense.

here's the other thing: weapons work, for me, brought out a lot of qualities that empty hand hadn't. part of that might have been chalked up to my age, a different instructor, etc. but part of it, i believe, is the nature of weaponry. helped my footwork by leaps and bounds.

i tended to be quicker, more precise, etc. when being attacked with a weapon (regardless of whether i had a weapon myself). it brought an intensity to things that was very valuable. and it brings skills like zoning into very sharp focus. (zoning: defensive tactic of knowing where an attack is going to do less than optimal damage and putting yourself there).

take something like empty hand versus knife. if someone uses a knife on me and i'm used to parrying empty hands, i'm not going to take into consideration the blade. not sufficiently. conversely, if i parry empty hands as if they were blades, fine. nothing lost.

see what i mean? weapons training makes you consider variables that you might not in empty hand.


stuart b.

[PLCrane]

Sticky Hands

Stand face to face, close enough to touch your partner. Touch forearm to forearm, close your eyes, start moving your arms, always maintaining contact, and try to find a way in. You can play soft, where you just touch the target, or you can play hard and practice your one inch punch. Another variation is to allow stepping.

When you can see your opponent's hands with your eyes closed, then you know you're doing it right.

[joy chaudhuri]

From what style is the kind of sticky hands, that you describe?

[PLCrane]

Joy,

That's from Pai Lum.

I should also mention that the contact should be as light as possible. If you start pushing against each other, you lose sensitivity.

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by Black & Blue:
What's tui sao?

Push hand.

Same principle as that found in Tai Ji, however we also practice it as a resistance exercise. It gives the student a great idea of the path of energy and how to feel your opponent's root and so on and so forth.

[Wingman]

see above. the full name is hubud lubud. and if i'm not mistaken, it means, roughly, "to tie and untie."

I think you mean "hubad lubid". In Visayan language hubad means "to untie" and lubid means "knotted rope". Hubad lubid means to untie a knotted rope. Of course there are many Filipino languages and different pronounciations. Maybe its pronounced as hubud lubud in other Filipino languages.;)

[Braden]

Lots of hubud videos here, courtesy of Roy Harris:

http://www.royharris.com/techniques/jkdkali/index.htm

[neptunesfall]

3 star blocking (arm knocking, knocking arms, etc.) and related drills, without the high impact; grappling.

[apoweyn]

wingman,

thanks for the explanation. that's interesting.

usually, it gets written in the united states as 'hubud lubud', but it would hardly be the first time that something like that has happened. more often than not, of course, it's just referred to as 'hubud.'

anyway, thanks to you, i'm smarter now than i was at the beginning of this conversation.

:)


stuart b.

[rubthebuddha]

that makes two of us. :)

[apoweyn]

good news, rubthebuddha, is that this means we're done learning for the day. we can go home now.

:)

[norther practitioner]

We do chi sao, and push hands mostly. Occasionally we will grab some swords and do sensitivity training with those. It is a good way to make the sword "One with the body, or arm." We do a few different variations of chi sao, one handed two handed, fast slow, etc.

[red5angel]

Interestingly enough I saw some sword type sensitivity drills not too long ao, very interesting!

AP- Thanks for the info! I think the stick fighting looks interesting. If I ever get the time or the oppurtunity I may have to try it out and see how it suits me! All the way home I kept pondering how I could use my own art with them. I imagine some of the sword form from wingchun might have a few things in common.

Braden, thanks for the link!

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

wing chun and FMA seems to be a prevalent combination. i can think of a lot of instructors who do both. many (obviously) are from the JKD camp. but not all. emin boztepe, for example.


stuart b.

[KC Elbows]

We do chi sao. It's different from wing chun chi sao, but has many similarities as well. Not so much drills of specific techniques, as free form contact training in which you try to apply the different energies and angles as suits your body type, I guess.

Sorry I can't describe it better than that.

[rubthebuddha]

apoweyn,

that IS indeed good news. i'll call you from tijuana. :cool:

wing chun in general works well with escrima, much because both have similar philosophies of going forward. but for emin and any escrima? emin's just a recipient of an EWTO/Latosa Escrima partnership. i'm pretty sure that started when Rene Latosa and Keith Kernspecht got all buddy buddy. now much of my WT family back in europe under Kernspecht are also escrima practitioners. Bill Newman is Latosa's big guy in the EWTO.

escrima hasn't really caught on much with WT in the states, partly i think because most of the WT development in the states started with Leung Ting, while most of WT in europe is because of Kernspecht. Leung Ting hasn't emphasized the escrima all that much -- his focus is the good ol' wing tsun. :)

[apoweyn]

******. now i've learned two things.

guess i'll be seeing 'triple X' tomorrow instead of coming here. can't run the risk anymore.

:)

[rubthebuddha]

ap -- learning two things means you should just sleep in monday morning, too. now go home. :D

[apoweyn]

buddha bless you... rubthebuddha. i'm so going to do that.

:)

[rubthebuddha]

good man, charlie brown. i expect a full report monday.

anyone else like to talk about the sensitivity stuff their art has? we talk about chi sau till we're blue in the face, but rarely do we talk about similar stuff in other styles.

[apoweyn]

i think merryprankster hit on a good point. grappling is one big sensitivity drill. but i wonder whether the various wrestling styles have smaller, more focused drills for that sort of thing.