Some Thoughts on Beating Dead Horses.

[Merryprankster]

Why are the below rules TOO RESTRICTIVE?!

Skip the "will be warned for not engaging," argument. Specious at best, if you want to play a defensive game, you'll be allowed to. If you stay OUT of engagement distance, (turn tail and run the whole time) you'll be warned, and eventually DQ'd.

The serious CMAists on this board all agree that it's not about groin strikes, eye shots, throat tears and elbows to the base of the skull.

Somebody please tell me why the rules below don't allow for a decent test of fighting ability?

I will personally admit to not liking the no elbows to the head rule, but you get to knee and kick a guy while he's down, as long as you're within 22 lbs or so. If not, then the lighter guy gets to choose...




Article 1
The fighters shall wear open finger gloves, which will be provided by DSE.


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Article 2
Upon the fighter's choice, Gi, kneepads, elbow-pads, shin guards, taping and ankle supporter may be worn, but should be checked by the referee before the fights. Mouthpiece and foul up are mandatory for fighters. Even though taping and bandage on the fist are prohibited, taping on the fingers is permitted upon the referee's check.


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Article 3
No application of oil, ointment, spray, Vaseline, massaging cream, hair cream, or any other substances are permitted to be applied to any part of the fighter's body before and during the fights. When application of these substances is discovered, the fighter may be disqualified.


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Article 4
When a fighter wears shoes, referee and judges have to determine if the shoes impose any danger to his opponent if the fighter kicks his opponent with the shoes on. He is allowed to kick his opponent with his shoes on only when referee and judges' approval are given to the fighter.


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Article 5
The ring will be a 7m by 7m-square shape, which DSE has approved.


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Article 6
Fights are 3 rounds formats. The first round is ten (10) minutes, the second round is five (5) minutes and the third round is five (5) minutes. There are no extra rounds. The interval between each round shall be two (2) minutes.


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Article 7
The winner shall be determined by one of the following:

Ippon
When the fighter gives up, submission and/or forfeiture are expressed either verbally or by tapping more than 3 times on the mat or the opponent's body.

TKO (Technical Knockout)

Referee Stoppage
When a fighter is remarkably superior to the other and the referee judges the inferior is in danger if the fight continues.

Doctor Stoppage
When a fighter is injured by the opponent's legal attack and if a ringside doctor determines that the injured fighter is incapable of continuing the fight, the injured fighter loses the fight. However, if the injury is caused by the illegal action of the opponent, the opponent loses the fight. For the ringside doctor's examination, a sub-referee will take the fighter's primary corner man to the neutral corner to inform him/her of the doctor's diagnosis and instruction. When the doctor determines the doctor stop is appropriate and required, the sub-referee explains the diagnosis and fighter's condition to the primary corner man.

Renunciation
The fighter's corner men may stop the fight by "throwing in the towel." In case the referee fails to see it, the judges may stop the fight.

Judges Decision
The three judges shall judge the winner of the fight based on the following criteria:

Effort to finish the fight by KO or submission
Damaging your opponent
Standing combinations and ground control
Take down and defense
Aggressiveness
Weight differences of 10 (ten) kg or more
The above criteria are in descending priority. The criteria will be a determining factor to declare the winner of the fight. The fight will be scored in its entirety not round-by-round. After the third round, each judge must decide the winner of the fight (must system/no draw system).

Disqualification
The referee shall give a caution to a fighter when the fighter commits the illegal action or if he disobeys the referee's instruction. Third caution during the fight shall disqualify the fighter.

No contest
When illegal action disqualifies both fighters, or the judges and/or DSE decide to end the fight because of an accident, or an accident happened in the first (1) round causes either or both fighters to be unable to continue to the next round, the fight shall be ruled a "No Contest." However, in the case that the accident happens during or after the second (2) round, decision shall be made according to their performance during the first (1) round and the following round(s) before the accident occurred.


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Article 8
The following actions are deemed to be illegal. A fighter who commits these illegal actions hall be given a caution by the referee and such illegal action shall be a negative factor for decision. Third caution during the fight shall disqualify the fighter. The fighter shall be fined 10% of the fighting fee per caution payable to DSE.

Biting
Eye thumbing and eye gouging
Head butting
Attacking the groin
Pulling Hair
Pushing the windpipe with the thumb or finger (s) or squeezing the windpipe
Attacking the back of the head, the spine and/or the medulla (The back of the head is the centerline of the head and the area around the ears are not considered to be the back of the head.)
Using the elbows to attack the head or the face
Grabbing the ropes and refuse to release the ropes and/or hanging the limbs of the body (hand(s), arm(s), leg(s) or feet) over the rope intentionally. A fighter who places his upper arm over the rope shall be given a caution immediately.
Escaping to the outside of the ring
Throwing the opponent outside the ring
Stalling or failure to initiate any offensive or defensive attack. Making no attempt to finish or damage the opponent.

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Article 9
The following rules are applied to weight for title matches (see "Attachment" at end). The weighing should be monitored by the rule director and should be completed by the day before the matches. Matches are qualified to be title matches only when fighters pass weighing criteria and fighters are proven to be in good condition fight both physically and mentally.


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Article 10
Weight classes are as follows:

Middleweight Class: Weight less than 93kg
Heavyweight Class: Weight more than or equal to 93kg
If both fighters are in the Middle Weight Class: If there is a weight difference of 10 kg or more between the two Middle Weight Class fighters, the lighter fighter is given a choice to decide whether to allow knee or kick to the face when the fighter is in the "four points" position.

If the lighter fighter approves of such attacks, both fighters are allowed to do so. However, if the lighter fighter doesn't give approval, neither fighter is allowed to do the above-mentioned attack.

If both fighters are in the Heavy Weight Class: The above rule is applied if there is a weight difference of 15kg or more between two heavyweight fighters.

If a fight is between middle and heavyweight class fighters: The middle class rule is applied. Therefore, if there is weight difference of 10 kg or more between middle and heavy class fighters, the middle class fighter is given a choice to decide whether to allow knees or kicks to the face when a fighter is in the "four points" position.


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Article 11
In the case that a fighter has been damaged immensely by the opponent's illegal action, the referee and the doctor shall decide if the fight can resume after the damaged fighter recovers enough to fight. However, if the referee and doctor judge the fighter as not capable of continuing the fight, the opponent who committed the illegal action shall be disqualified according to Article 7-2.

[red5angel]

MP, here are my thoughts. You might be able to get an idea of decent fighting ability, but not necessarily full fighting ability or potential. My reasoning is this, from my point of view, we use a lot of throat grabs and joint breaks in my art. These are used as a common excuse as to why the art may not be able to do well in the ring. For me, those techniuqes cannot be used in the ring and so you must train differently to use the art I am learning. Now, we do use these techniques in chi sau, to a lesser degree. When someone shoots in and has your larynx, they arent going to tear it out, but you know they could have. This only counts for that sort of sparring though, in the ring, you may win a psycological advantage of sorts by "counting coup" but in general the fighting strategy is different.
Now this isnt to say that I couldnt train differently to use my art in the ring, concentrate on the joint locks and breaks (modifying them to locks) and then get in the ring and do some serious fighting but I think for me it would be unfair to what I am learning to do this. The middle ground is to fight in CMA tourneys where counting coup does count for something and I can use my full arsenal and not worry about having to modify my training some.

[rogue]

By that criterea BJJ is too lethal for the ring.

[red5angel]

Rogue, you are probably correct, BUT, thats my point, BJJ seems to be pretty adaptable to the ring. You can take alot of those break moves and turn them into submission moves fairly easily. Grabbing onto someones throat and then holding onto it long enough to make someone submit is pretty hard.
Basically my point is that ANY art can be used in the ring, it just takes a little adjustment to the training is all. I think if anyone in wingchun decided to fight in an open tourney without training for that type of fight, then they are fooling themselves.

[Merryprankster]

Red5--

I don't think you have to be a good ringfighter to have good skills. I don't think ringfighting has anything to do with that at all actually, other than provide a legal venue for people who like to fight.

However, your excuse (it's not a reason this time) sounds a lot like the "I can't eye-gouge and groin shot and bite you."

If you rely THAT HEAVILY on throat strikes and standing joint "breaks" then you are short on fight skills, and LOOOOOOOOOOOONG on "fluff."

[Le nOObi]

I dont think those rules are restrictive at all. I just dont think NHB competitions really attract CMAers

[Merryprankster]

Len--

I agree 100%. And quite frankly, that's a perfectly acceptable answer. My question is directed more to those who seem to think the rules, such as they are, are so restrictive they limit the ability of a practicioner of "Learned From Si Fu" to engage in a fair test of skills.

[Crimson Phoenix]

*mumbles* when I finally perform my anti-grappler invocation and place that guarding pentagram, we will eventually have only gong fu related threads...
YYYYEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[red5angel]

MP- you may have missed what I was tryiing to say, or I may have misunderstood something here. I did not reason or excuse by saying that since I cannot use those techniques, I cannot fight in the ring. I am saying that because those techniques ar eintegral to my real fighting system, ie. If I am attacked on the street those things are pivotal moves or techniques for me. they end a fight real quick, REAL quick, and since that is my goal it is what I use. In a ring you want to end a fight quickly as well but you also cant do too much physical damage.
I'm not actually making excuses at all just saying that I would hae to redirect my training strategy to redirect my fighting strategy for the ring. I believe wing chun for example can be used effectively in the ring and you dont have to use all those "deadly" techniques.
I agree with your first comment, I dont think being a good fighter also makes you a good ring fighter.

[Mr Punch]

Seems OK if that's what you want to do.

I've thought about this long and hard, and tried new methods, but not to use elbows to the face and neck is just about a third of my standing game. Wing chun is close range, and mine is a tough school: exactly what I'm aiming for is to work my way in close and set my elbows to work. If I'm unsuccessful I know I'm going down, but I'm skilled and practised enough to have a chance on the floor (I admit that I need more work there though)...

The fact remains, that unfortunately, I would have to change my whole outlook and most of the things I learn to fight in a contest like this. I would change all of this if I thought it was worth it... but I like my kind of training too much.

I have asked my friend in the biz to look out for an elbows in contest over here. the closest I've come so far is Shoot Boxing, where one point is taken off for 'dangerous use' of the elbows (mostly captive strikes to the head). If you get a KO with it you're OK, otherwise, I'd probably go down on points. Plus, the Shoot Boxing is pretty new, unlike the Shooto (Shoot Wrestling) so the prize money sucks!!! :D ;)

****, just read your last post MP, saying it was directed at people who say the rules are too restrictive... which renders my post mostly useless :o ! oh well, nice to have you back... :)

[Merryprankster]

I'll buy that you need to train slightly differently for success in the ring, but it shouldn't be THAT hard. If it IS, I would start to question the techniques or methodology.

Crimson, I never used the word grappling in any of my posts on this thread? How is a thread about rules in a ringfight and why they are or aren't too restrictive related to grappling?

Mat--in the UFC, they allow elbow strikes. However, you may not use downward "point of the elbow" attacks to the head or neck. I believe the other sorts are legal--but don't quote me.... And it's good to BE back!

Brazilian portuguese sounds like a Russian trying to speak spanish with marbles in his mouth....

[rogue]

R5A, How far does your school go with those techniques? When I took JJJ dislocations were infrequent but not un-common. When I took BJJ I speant more than one class on the side trying to breath after someone sank a front choke a little too hard. In my opinion if you're not seeing these kind of non-fatal accidents in your class you're not training those techniques seriously enough.

Question for all you WC guys, how come nobody has come up with training equipment to let you go all out with your WC techniques?

[Kope]

Why my art won't work well under these rules unmodified:

Let's take the current form I am working on. It has 58 strikes in it.

I just got up and ran through it a couple of times to count (and got some strange looks from my cube neighbors ;) ) and of those 58 strikes - 47 are strikes to the face or groin. The face strikes are a mix of elbow strikes, snake fist strikes to the eyes and throat, and crane fist strikes to the throat.

Now, this form is relatively representative of how my Sifu trains his style -- focus your attacks on vulnerable targets to effect maximum damage for the energy used.

Now, like folks have said, sure this style can be modified to focus on using strikes that don't violate that rule. But the practical effect of this is that 95% of what I've trained in the last 2 years would need to be modified or ignored in this ring.

Now, that doesn't mean that someone from my school couldn't do well there ... but if they did manage to do well, it wouldn't be utilizing what my school has taught.

[guohuen]

Well I'm ready to be flamed.
The rules are the rules. In sport you agree upon them beforehand. If you concentrate on what you can do rather than what you can't it shouldn't make any difference what the rules are. Have confidence in the techniques you're allowed and forget about the others. Not pointing fingers here, but I find the folks that complain about the rules usually are either afraid to lose or really want to brawl.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Merry, indeed you haven't...but come on, you know you think about it real hard

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
I'll buy that you need to train slightly differently for success in the ring, but it shouldn't be THAT hard. If it IS, I would start to question the techniques or methodology.


I question it all the time, but hey, I enjoy it. And having a third elbows in my stnd-up game is fine by me: I'm bloody good with them :eek:... and I'd look silly with no elbows: my arms wouldn't bend :D ! I'm not gonna question the methodology as ineffective because I can't take it to the ring because I've tested out and know most of my weak points... my groundwork needs some work, so I'm well aware that if my stand-up with all it's elbow glory fails, or I'm against a good grappler, I still need to do some hard work...


Mat--in the UFC, they allow elbow strikes. However, you may not use downward "point of the elbow" attacks to the head or neck. I believe the other sorts are legal--
Don't think I'm quite ready for that somehow...! I'm still only 67 kilos at 182 :eek: and I don't care how skilled I am, someone with the same skill at say 134 kilos is gonna wrap my legs round my neck and call me a basketball...


but don't quote me....
Oh bugger.


Brazilian portuguese sounds like a Russian trying to speak spanish with marbles in his mouth....
LOL! I know what you're saying! I live with 9 Brazilian models... just when you thought nothing could get more shrill than Japanese chicks...! :(

Guohen... 'really want to brawl....' er, hell yeah! :D I do martial arts. I've seen the street, I've sparred cross-training, I've seen MMA up close... hell I wanna brawl... but I don't want to paint the floor with 'em.

Rogue: don't understand the question... :confused: We can go all out against other WCers of comparable level. Otherwise we just need padding, armour etc... why nobody decent has gone for UFC or stuff yet is because they don't want to, I guess.. or maybe we're all chicken****... yeah, that's it :D ! Or in some cases we are late twenty-somethings blarting on and on like 14 year olds with their first hole about how they've found IT and would anyone else like to try some, and we'll be so good at IT some time in the future you'd better watch out, cos we're so excited about IT all over a nearby pile of tissues at a webpage near you...

Oh dear... what am I talking about? :o

[rogue]

OK R5A I'm going to pick on you again ;)

If I am attacked on the street those things are pivotal moves or techniques for me. they end a fight real quick, REAL quick, and since that is my goal it is what I use. In a ring you want to end a fight quickly as well but you also cant do too much physical damage. The difference between using your techniques on the street and in the ring are this, I confront you on the street (if I attacked it'd be from behind with a blunt object :) ) I don't know if you know something and will be open to your attack. If I meet you in the ring I'm ready to fight. You're going to have a hard time grabbing my throat and a harder time trying to break my arm without a good setup as I'm also trying to lay some hurt on you while avoiding getting hurt myself. So most of your more lethal/fast fight ending stuff is actually less of an issue under the rules MP layed out than you think.



PS I loved your post on the WC forum that Shihing73 shutdown. If you were trolling they'd be building a statue to you on the UG. :D

[rogue]

Mat,

I live with 9 Brazilian models... just when you thought nothing could get more shrill than Japanese chicks...! I'm sorry, am I supposed to feel sorry for you? :D Wear headphones and count your blessings you hoser!

Hey have you found IT too? LOL @ IT mat.

[truewrestler]

Don't think I'm quite ready for that somehow...! I'm still only 67 kilos at 182 and I don't care how skilled I am, someone with the same skill at say 134 kilos is gonna wrap my legs round my neck and call me a basketball...There are general weight classes in Pride (not followed 100% of the time) and strict weight classes in the UFC (followed 99.9% of the time). You wouldn't have to worry too much... are you saying you are 182lbs?

I think some schools just learn devastating techniques but not how to fight. In wrestling/grappling/jiu-jitsu you do just that, wrestling/grappling/jiu-jitsu. I think if an art is based on fighting/striking then you should learn and practice fighting/striking.

What I mean by this is if you are going to learn to fight/strike then you have to fight/strike full speed. Even if there are rules in the full speed "sparring" you will get proficient at those skills that are legal... to the point where almost no one untrainned can compete with you in those skills.

I feel that anyone that trains for NHB competition will be better off, regardless of their base style.

I'm just rambling. Great thread Merry!

[David Jamieson]

This is strictly my personal opinion....

The argument that "my art is too deadly for the ring" is a weak argument period.

If it was a case of "My art is not designed for the ring and I have no experience in the ring with it so therefore I am not into ring fighting" then that is different and acceptable.

the ring is the ring and the rules are the rules, if you cannot "adapt" your skills to a set of rules then you do NOT have "Kung Fu". Kung Fu is flexible, it can be both deadly and merciful in the same breath.

With total control comes total control of yourself and the environment you are in and anyone within your sphere of influence.

If you are learning only throat jabs and eye rakes, you are NOT learning Kung Fu.

If you simply don't want to compete with what you have been taught, then don't compete and go do what you do.

However, if someone doesn't like ring fighting and feels it serves no purpose in their development as a martial artist then regardless of what a competitor may think, that someone is valid in their feeling and acting that way.

To constantly be stating "Kung Fu in UFC Sucks" is incorrect. Kung Fu by it's nature in many many schools is not for competition and your only opponent is your own weakness and inability. Once you have control of yourself, you have "power" to not wish to compete is purely a personal option and should not be ridiculed by those who chosse to compete.

If you wish to compete, then that is also a personal choice.

either way, errors and assumptions are made by both cma'ers and non cma'ers regarding competition.

peace

[crumble]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
With total control comes total control of yourself and the environment you are in and anyone within your sphere of influence.

[snip...]

Once you have control of yourself, you have "power" to not wish to compete is purely a personal option and should not be ridiculed by those who chosse to compete.


I agree that choosing to compete is a personal decision. But I'm not sure I understand your use of the word "control".

You could be indicating that control means that you also have the ability to fight ("control of... anyone within your sphere") or it could mean the ability to make decisions ("power to not wish to compete").

How are you using the word? For example, I can imagine someone who is in control of themselves but absolutely vunerable to the violence of others.

Very curious,

-crumble

[Tigerstyle]

Nice, Kung Lek.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
*mumbles* when I finally perform my anti-grappler invocation and place that guarding pentagram, we will eventually have only gong fu related threads...
YYYYEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSS


Leholam Amen

[David Jamieson]

To clarify-

When I say "control", I am talking about control of yourself, your decisions, your body, your fears, your mind, your thoughts and the rest of who and what you are.

To have "control" of someone else is a different thing.

To have control of someone in your sphere of influence is a little Kungfu in action. What you do with that person in your sphere is dependent upon your Kung fu, you can be merciful or you can be merciless. When one has KungFu, only they control their sphere of influence, even when it is invaded. If you do not have Kungfu, you will be challenged by others who enter your sphere and it will be "chance" that decides the outcome.

There is NO singular factor that contributes to ones Kungfu. It is a multiplicity of things that make you up.

peace

[truewrestler]

I think he means "control" as in being able to fight lethally or non-lethally, or fight however a situation requires.

Say one of your family members or friends attacks you while they are drunk. Are you going to blind them just because eye gouging is 90% what you were taught? This is a prime example of why someone shouldn't focus on only lethal force. When non-lethal force is necessary they won't be able to defend themselves.

[crumble]

Thanks for the clairification Kung Lek!

-c

[Ryu]

"just when you thought nothing could get more shrill than Japanese chicks...! "

Nothing is more shrill than a Japanese woman. And I've been to the zoo.


Merry, sorry no comment on your post. (Obviously I don't think the rules are that restrictive)

However,
Bertrand Russell's comment about the stupid man's account of something a clever man says made my day :D I thought I had the most condescending sig quote, but I guess you take the cake now. I'm jealous. :D

Ryu

[red5angel]

Hey MP, I agree it shouldnt be too much different, just some slight adjustments.

Rogue - Yep, those sorts of accidents do happen, and I also tend to walk away from practice with plenty of buises and a sore kneck!
As for apparatus well, there is the mook, otherwise I dont think you need to have anything like that really, we get close enough in training, atleast at my school. I can say that in WC we generally dont train with pads, partially because you also need to learn control.
LOL! Thanks man, I wasn't trolling but some feel like I am I guess! As for the difference, I say that even in the ring you might be a little prepared BUT I am also training against opponents in my class who are prepared, even more so because they all know the tricks in my bag. I thik at that point it comes down to who has been training the hardest and the smartest.

Kung Lek says - "The argument that "my art is too deadly for the ring" is a weak argument period"

Yep, jus some techniques. I think people who make this statement just dont understand there is a difference, even if slight, between fighting in the ring and on the street, and the training for it.

[truewrestler]

red5angel: I can say that in WC we generally dont train with pads, partially because you also need to learn control. What do you mean by that? Pulling your strikes? Do you use gloves? thanks

[Merryprankster]

Crimson--yeah, I grapple. But I don't run around screaming about how it's "the best." It's just one piece of the puzzle, like weapons or kicking or running :)

Just because I think about grappling a lot, doesn't mean that I can't use my brain to talk about the relative merits of rules (or lack thereof) in a combat sport.

Personally, I'm with Le Noobi (or however it's spelled). MMA events don't seem to attract CMAers much--Shooter and his boys are rare exceptions.

Specifically though, are the rules somehow "too restrictive" to put a particular stylist at a severe disadvantage? I would say in 99% of the cases, absolutely not.

My point is really to demonstrate that the too restrictive argument is a **** poor one, at best, and a cop-out, almost 100% of the time.

I'll tell you this much. Pride would JUMP at the chance if a recognized, well respected (vice say, David Levicki) CMA master or grandmaster chose to compete in their event. The Japanese fans would go CRAZY for an event like that!

Ryu, while nothing can be more shrill than Japanese chicks, nothing is more INSANE than half-asian ones :)

[red5angel]

Truewrestler - What I mean is, we use the dummy and the sandbag to do full force type techniques. while sparring we have to pull some of it back, and it teaches you to control your punches and the power you put into them, or any of your other attacks. We still go pretty hard. for instance this last weekend my voice got sort of rough because a sparring partner kept grabbing my throat and holding on!, not the kneck mind you, the larynx! We go pretty hard. no gloves, barehands. With beginners we go pretty slow and soft but as you get beter you stat to walk aeay with more bruises and "battlescars"!

[rogue]

Ryu, while nothing can be more shrill than Japanese chicks, nothing is more INSANE than half-asian ones LOL, Been there.

I used to wonder how Shooter used his TC but after doing it for a little while I'm surprised more TC guys aren't going for UFC. If it only had ground grappling.

R5A, sounds close to how we work, how often does your school spar that way?

[red5angel]

Well, most o fus are just starting to spar in our new system but pretty much every class, 2-3 times a week. Some of us get together outside of class as well and do it.

[Shadowboxer]

MP,

What would you like to see if a truly skilled WC person entered a MMA competition? Would you want to see the true art of WC or just the techniques that are allowed by the rules? What I mean by "true" is having everything in the WC arsenal at one's disposal. Some of the rules hinder our reactions that we've been training since the beginning. At my school, fairly new students (several months) are taught to go for the eyes, kick the groin. "When in doubt kick the knee". Would dislocating or breaking a knee be allowed? It's a very effective technique that we build attack and "defence" around. I've watched more UFC's and Pride clips and other things, from Sherdog for instance, and I wonder why people don't attack the knee or go for arm breaks where we would apply them, or use elbows like we would, whether they are standing or on the ground. I imagine a lot of those types of fights are quick paced, that is, there's not a lot of time to think, just time to feel and respond. I think that would be a disadvantage to be in the ring trying to remember what's legal and what's not; and not react with an eye strike, which if blocked flows into something else such as an arm break, which if blocked, etc. . Also,why can't a fighter hold onto the ropes? What's the reasonong behind it? What if some of your techs were eliminated such as no chokes or armbars or kneebars (we can't go for the throat, eyes, and knees- so you can't either)? Would you compete in an event that limited those techs? If so, why?
So, my point is we could alter our training drastically to fight in the ring with rules. But you wouldn't really be seeing WC versus X , which is what people and those promoters you metioned would think. So, do you want real WC or "sport WC"?
We don't bite. No problem with that rule. Eye attacks are in all of our sets. By attacking the eyes, you are forced to respond, opening holes elsewhere and putting your bridge arm in danger. An elbow to the back of the head is a primary way we deal with the single/double leg attempts in the clinch drill we do. I didn't see anything about breaks so I guess they are legal? We like elbows to the head, lots of them.

[old jong]

I don't see why Kung Fu systems like Wing Chun,CLF,Hung Gar,PM and others could not be succesful in the ring with just a little adaptation to the rules and a ring oriented training regimen.These Kung Fu fighters would be in fact "specialised ring fighters" and many of the usual reactions would be modified to some points to fit with the rules so not to act like in a self-defense streetfight.

[Shadowboxer]

But why should we be the only ones who have to adapt our training and system? And howabout we get the MMA fighters to adapt and not go to the ground all the time? :D

[ArrowFists]

I think an earlier poster made a great point about being able to control your MA training, and restrain whether than maim or kill. By saying that you cannot modify your training towards a more nonlethal incarnation is pretty much an admission that you can't defend yourself properly if you were in a "real" fight. Or that ring arts are technically superior to non-competitive styles. Try to blind some drunken fool in a bar, and you're looking at a hefty law suit. Rip out someone's throat who gets out of line at a family function? Yeah, okay. Your linebacker-sized roomate comes home from a wild party and decides to bully you around a little just for kicks, so in response you rip off his testicles, or elbow him in his temple?

I hope you enjoy spending long hours alone with men in enclosed spaces.

If you're truly good at any fighting art, you can easily adapt what you've learned to subdue and opponent without permenantly, or seriously injuring them. Yes, I can snap my drunk brother's neck, but why do something like that when I can simply restrain him with a pin or a lock?

He can survive the lock, but why the hell would I snap the neck of someone I care deeply for?

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Ryu, while nothing can be more shrill than Japanese chicks, nothing is more INSANE than half-asian ones :)

Either that or the so called "Americanised" ones.:D

[David Jamieson]

Having said I believe ones Kungfu should be flexible and ever adapting, brings another thought or two to mind.

One being that the base of Kung Fu has grown for years and years, it has always been a flowing river.
Many schools recognize this from where I am seeing things. Even traditional kung fu studios that teach classical form, application, and many other training regimens as handed down for decades and even centuries, are now offering opportunity to compete.

We see traditional Kung Fu offered with competitive San Shou, or mixed martial arts clubs that offer some classical Kung fu training.
The same goes with many other traditional arts of many cultural backgrounds. We see revivalism of equally ancient european schools of martial thought and practice, we see many changes in regards to the martial arts overall.

I think the only real problem with todays martial arts is that those who undertake the study of them fail to realize the difficulty and passion required to succeed.

I guess that is an innate failing in many of us. Not like we can't unlearn though.

peace

[Shadowboxer]

I never said I couldn't modify training. I said why would I want to put myself in an arena with disadvantages when the other fighter does not have any. I would kick a drunk fool in the groin instead of going for the eyes. And I wouldn't rip out anyone's throat at a family function, not that I go to that many. Palms to the body or face would suffice but I would probably need more than these against the skill level found in these comps, don't you agree? My roomate knows better than to mess with me, especially if he or I am drunk, he tried it before and I did not seriously hurt him but I didn't use Kung Fu either. But I live alone now. I see your point though. If I were to enter a MMA comp not being able to do some of these things I wouldn't be doing Kungfu, which is what some people are asking for, a KF fighter. I would feel more like a MMA fighter because more likely than not these comps are geared toward the ground. So I would work my ground game and the strikes that were permissable and by then I'd be doing something other than WC KungFu.

[rogue]

Ya know Kung Lek I'm finding I agree with you more and more. That's something that should frighten at least one of us. :D

[Merryprankster]

Shadow--

Elbows and eyestrikes and throat strikes not allowed.

Where did you see, in the rules that I listed, that joint strikes/breaks are not allowed? I've not read them TOO closely, so maybe I missed something.

[Shadowboxer]

That's what I was wondering. If they are allowed. It doesn't say that you cannot. But I have seen a few clips from Shredog, one with Sakuraba where the other guy is on the ground just letting sak kick him and I could of sworn he(Sak) was close enough to get kicked in the knee in a really bad way. Other times I have seen opportunities for elbow breaks standing and on the ground. But like I said earlier, perhaps the action is going too fast to take advantage of every opening. Also, I guess some of the competitors are friends outside of the ring and don't want to break their friends' bones?

[Merryprankster]

If it's not illegal, it's legal. *shrug*

Beats me why they do or don't do something.

[Tigerstyle]

"If I were to enter a MMA comp not being able to do some of these things I wouldn't be doing Kungfu, which is what some people are asking for, a KF fighter."

Shadowboxer,
I understand about the shift in focus of your training possibly running contrary to what you would normally practice in a KF school (ex. not attacking the eyes, groin, etc.). I just don't understand how entering the ring and fighting with those rules means someone can't be truly doing kung fu.

I know this is an exaggerated example but... If you were attacked on the street by someone and you were able to end the confrontation with a single punch (say, to the body), was it not your kung fu that you used?


As far as legal techniques in MMA, I don't know if there is anything in the rules against striking the joints. I know that in the early UFCs and similar events it was legal. I would imagine though, that it would be banned if it started happening regularly and resulting in many broken joints (for safety reasons, I assume).

I have seen people attack the knees in MMA events, from the ground position you described in the videos you saw. It happens somewhat often in that position, but I don't know if it is so much intentional rather than a "target of opportunity" kind of thing. And yes, I saw it happening to Sakuraba a few times too :) .


Anyhoo, I notice I'm starting to agree with Kung Lek pretty regularly. :eek:

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by truewrestler
What do you mean by that? Pulling your strikes? Do you use gloves? thanks

My training sessions are totally different from some others. We use pads, bags, 16 oz boxing gloves and headgear. We are known as the fightin' Wing Chunners. (joke) we're really into sportfighting and modern training methods. Yet my sifu is totally good at all the traditional methods and we train finger strikes, weapons, etc.
My teacher also teaches us, drawing upon his extensive competition experience, how to translate Wing Chun into sportfighting.

I do think that sportfighting is WAY different from your self-defense needs, however training one will help you with the other if you stay within a common framework. Ultimately sportfighting is more fun, for me at this time. Other times I may feel differently, but I'm on kind of a roll with the sportfighting thing as I have begun to compete in the MA again after 12 years hiatus.

[Merryprankster]

I do think that sportfighting is WAY different from your self-defense needs, however training one will help you with the other if you stay within a common framework.

Best Post EVER.

[fa_jing]

Thank you, thank you, thank you, (bows)
:D