Kwong Sai Jook Lum Gee Tong Long Pai: the politics thereof

[toddbringewatt]

Any students of Gin Foon Mark or Henry Poo Yee out there?

Both claim to have the Grand Master's altar per my reading on the subject. Do they both?

Why does the "Benevolent Society" acknowledge Gin Foon Mark but discourage anyone from studying with Henry Poo Yee? Why does Gin Foon Mark seem to be displeased with both Henry Poo Yee and with those who "create benevolent societies" in order to represent Jook Lum? What's the deal? Am I misinformed? Have I drawn strange conclusions? :confused:

may the force be with you

[Barefoot Mantis]

It's like a lotta kung-fu - very political - mostly from SOME of the up and coming generations. Privately at least,the disciples of Henry Poo-Yee and Mark Foon are very friendly to one another. There are also two other main branches of Jook-Lum besides Lam-Sang's - Lee-Yin-Sing's and Wong-Yuk-Gongs. Lot of disputes have bin kicked off by trouble makers on other forums.
Who cares? All those old masters are good. Best to learn in friendship from difference.

[toddbringewatt]

Thanks for your reply. Good information. Anyone have any clarification on the altar issue?

may the force be with you

[fukien]

Very simply, Lum Sang never formally designated a sucessor.

P

[toddbringewatt]

How do you know this?

may the force be with you

[Barefoot Mantis]

It aint my pai, but, there are plenty who say that he nominated several people at one time or another. There is a lotta political crap to be made outta arguin' over who's the 'real deal'.
That don't help the art. Poo, Mark and some others less prominent in Lam's line are all great teachers. Why not just accept that they all have a common root and learn in wisdom from their differences in teaching and application?

I know some guys who are learning as much as they can of all the different J-L branches - just for the love of the art. And, I know some who want to control and take over the whole reputation of that system by any political means possible - including slagging off other teachers and setting up exclusive - cult like organisations. I also know some guys who are happy and content with their lineage and yet are truly friendly to others from other branches.

Ah well... 'two otta three aint bad'

[Cincinnatus]

Barefoot,

Would you know if the differences between the different "factions" are more in terms of interpreting the art - kinda like the hoopla over WIng CHun, or are they actually teaching different principles? Thanks.

What we do in life, echoes in eternity
--Maximus Decimus Meridius, General of the Army of the North, Commander of the Felix Legions

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hi Cinncinatus,

well, Lam's is not my Pai, but, from the outside, there are a lot of differences between the leading Masters teachings. I guess underneath it all it's still the same art, from the same root.
I reckon it's better to forget the divisive politics 'n be friends, specially for the up and comming generations. :)

[Cincinnatus]

You know, is it me or is all this stuff about lineage and successorship and all that a modern contrivance? Seems to me that even up until the turn of the 1900's, it didn't REALLY matter who you learned what from, as long as you had good gung fu, you had gung fu. But after WW2 there's been a sudden upsurge of political bickering amongst almost all styles of all countries. Or am I missing something? Are there any styles, right now in 2001, from any country that does NOT have any politics associated with it?

What we do in life, echoes in eternity
--Maximus Decimus Meridius, General of the Army of the North, Commander of the Felix Legions

[toddbringewatt]

Thanks for the responses. My concern is more with character and integrity than with lineage. If your kung fu is effective that's all I care about, but if you're being dishonest or unnecessarily political about it I don't necessarily want to study with you. That's all. The above posts have been helpful. Thanks.

may the force be with you

[Hiram]

It's refreshing to meet someone with intellect and common sense. I wholeheartedly agree with you!
If you ever wanna "shoot the breeze", drop me a line: Hiram@optonline.net

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hi Friend,

Yep be glad to! Sad to say that earlier this year there was an attempt by the 'up 'n coming' generations of Si-Fu (all lineage holders)in the three main branches of Jook-Lum Mantis to form a 'heritage foundation' it had a constitution that fobade ANY political nonsense - it was to be just for the art. It was going real well, when one it's invited members got all political and ruined it. It will probably re-form in time, but at least the three 'main lines' of Jook-Lum have contact in friendship with one another now, and that will continue until they are ready to re-establish things. It only takes one bad mother to f*** it all up, sad, yeah?

I'd say that Kung-Fu is 'in the hands', if its there then its there no arguement.

[Cincinnatus]

Hi Barefoot, just curious, but what the the three main lineages of Jook Lum that you're talking about in this heritage foundation? This is just for the US, right? Anyway, I can think of the Henry Poo Yee group, the Gin Foon Mark group, and I don't know of a third. No need to name names, but wondering what the three lines are. Thanks.

What we do in life, echoes in eternity
--Maximus Decimus Meridius, General of the Army of the North, Commander of the Felix Legions

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hi Cincinatus,

The lines are: Lum-Sang, Wong-Yuk Gong and Lee-Yin-Sing. Lum Sangs in the USA, Wong-Yuk-Gong's in the UK, Lee-Yin-Sing's in the UK and in Australia and the USA.

There has been much trouble and counter claims between these branches in the past. It is very helpful that some of their members - some of whom are lineage holders - are communicating in friendship and mutual acceptance and respect.

Not all lineage holders or senior masters from the three lines by any means are involved - but some are - enough for it to work one day.

There are plenty of people out there (sadly) who would like to destroy it thru politics and some have already tried.

[Cincinnatus]

Cool, thanks for the info Barefoot Mantis. Pretty impressive that it's a worldwide effort. I noticed that amongst the lineages and locales you mentioned, Hong Kong or Chine were not mentioned. Are there no more Jook Lum people left in China?

What we do in life, echoes in eternity
--Maximus Decimus Meridius, General of the Army of the North, Commander of the Felix Legions

[Richard mantis]

I have studied with Gin Foon Mark for nearly 12 years.

I personally built {by that I mean constructed} the altar at Gin Foon Mark's school. The actual altar was always in his possession but I built the decorative stand and many of the ornaments that adorn it. Much of the entire altar I simply "fixed up".

I can tell you that I personally saw a photo of Lam Sangs altar taken in New York, and the largest bowl from the center of that altar {plus other artifacts formerly belonging to Lum Sang} is now sitting on the altar at Gin Foon Mark's school.

As far as a successor we have a hand written letter from Lum Sang designating five people {one of which is Mark Foon} as the successors of his art.

To the best of our knowledge Lum Sang never appointed anyone as "master" of his art.

The title of master was given to Gin Foon Mark by the New York Chinese community.

I do not know about the other Jook Lum teachers spoken of in the above posts.

I was a member of the Heritage Foundation spoken of earlier. Chances are it will probably not reunite.

Becuase of the political problems surrounding this style Master Mark has recently decided not to take any phone calls personally at the school. All calls will be taken by seinor students. If a caller is not a member of Mark Foon's association thier call will not be taken by Master Mark.

Rich

[Shawn Pecks]

Politics are something a good art dont need or should want. I for one have tried to remain politic free, and with much trouble. We have to remember that it is not the style that is political, but the people who teach them. Where then and why do they start this degradeing measure.Why if 2 people take the same art, and the same root, then why do they have problems when it comes to agreeing on things? Could it be the power? I always here people say: "He doesnt perform our art properly" Or, my teacher studied longer then his teacher.This kind of talk makes me happy i dont belong to one certain faction of an art. I have been taught much of the same art from many different people. But I will say, most of them will claim the real path. I got news for you, most teachers teach different! There are lots of ways to look at a system. And guess what? Its all traditional! Altars? Are just that! Altars! Pay your respect to them, and dont worry so much if it is just like your Granfathers. The respect should be the same.

I agree there is much crap in the arts out there. But there is much good stuff out there too. Next time you get a chance. Train with someone from another branch of you system. You may be surprised it is not much different. Meet some of the other teachers out there. You may be surprised. Dont judge them from a video tape. If I had of done that,I wouldnt be taking any martial art. Im not saying quite you teacher and go to them, Im saying meet them and train with them. And if your teacher dont want you to do that, then get away from him, he's got something to hide. It will be better for your art if you judge him yourself, instead of letting your teacher do it for you. Remember you most likely did'nt know him either, till you started training with him. Judge the other branches of the arts with an open mine.

Pecks

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hey Butch,

That Foundation was wrecked cos a certain individual stired up **** to wreck it for everyone else. The older generations in Jook-Lum remember the days when politics meant survival of their lineage. The younger ones came together to sort this out for our new century so that we can all be friends and share knowledge. It was in its constitution to accept all lineages as equal and worth preserving. It only takes one bad ass guy to f**** it for good. I reckon time will settle this matter and in time all will be well. Some lineages are VERY different even some branches of the same lineage. We are more likely to learn from difference than similarity - so that's cool!
It will take some guts to bring the pai together sooner rather than later - hey I wonder if those ex-Foundation guys have the guts eh? Guts comes with the turf of being a lineage holder I think least ways it should...

As they say, "All that is needed for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing".

[Shawn Pecks]

I for one was not a member of any foundation. i got my education about that from here. Seems like a good idea though. I just no from experience old teachers kind of frown on those kind of new ideas. Dont know why? They just do. Being a free sprit I can train with from who i like. I dont have the ties to on branch. In order to choose the people you want to train with you have to sample their teaching first and judge them later. I think when you come from a branch and you ask your Sifu if this guy or that is good he has a way of telling you not to go there. Maybe from fer of losing the money, student or both. I dont understand it. Its rare to have one Sifu in the same art speak well of the other. There has to be a reason. We tend to beleive what our teachers tell us of the other teachers. We dont dare ask why? A foundation? Between students from other branches? Sounds cool. To keep an open mind? Now that is the hard part. How long did the first one last? What happened?

Pecks

[fukien]

JL is indeed alive and well in HK.

Master Lee Kwok Leung runs a very tight and loyal ship and sees no reason to get involved with the mess overseas. A

[Barefoot Mantis]

Buch,

What happened is best said to be NOT about the Pai, but about a person - his attitude which was to try to run the Foundation and when that wasn't gonna happen, he just stired the ****.

The Pai are still friendly to one-another, it was just one bad ass mother who screwed it up - in a way that might cause the older generation to get involved. Sick.

That's why I believe that it WILL happen one day, the Pai themselves are cool and don't pull one another down.

If it don't happen, then one day there's gonna be one hell of a lotta trouble in Jook-Lum as some guy is gonna try take over the whole scene and claim that he has got the whole art - all Pai - all branches under his control. Yeah, there is such a mother - all the Pai know who he is.
Sad, to let him get his way by 'doing nothin'.

[toddbringewatt]

Who is this man you believe to have ruined the efforts to unite the Pai? Is there a reason you refer to him as a pronoun only?

may the force be with you

[Barefoot Mantis]

I've been advised by my Si-Fu not to fan the flames any further - but, suffice to say that he wasn't from HK or the USA. The Foundation people know who he was (the guy who f****** it up that is). The one who is planning a 'move' on the Pai is also well known and ain't a Senior generation Master.

[fukien]

Hey Steve, wasn't it YOU who brought Master SW into "the club"?

And all the trouble was between the only two "Sifu's" in the foundation.

You and Master SW.

You two squabbled over your book and your very opinionated views like petulant children.

[toddbringewatt]

Who is SW?

may the force be with you

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hey Fukie'

Thanks for the copmpliment, but I am not my teacher. He has asked me not to stir the politics up. If you know him you can contact him directly.
Otherwise I'm real happy man to talk with you.

[Shawn Pecks]

Who is SW? And who is Steve? But I guess it dont matter? An idea to bring people together never works. There has been quite a few groups who tried to get together only to find out it was not a good idea. Maybe this guy Brian Gray has it right? Dont talk about who you trained with and that way know one can say you are wrong. Or at least they say you have to be wrong cause you dont have a history. Make it up on your own. Make your own system like him. He got people calling him Master, maybe he has the key.

Pecks

[toddbringewatt]

Yes. Who is SW?

may the force be with you

[FIRE HAWK]

Who is S.W. his name is Simon Wong a Jook Lum sifu from the Wong Yok Kong lineage in Great Britian or England .The other guy is Sifu Steve Richards from the Lee Yin Sing lineage of Jook Lum.These two lineages are known to have arguments in the past because of some heated debates between the two Jook Lum Masters who are of the same lineage under Chung Yel Chung or Chang the two masters are Wong Yok Kong and Lee Yin Sing.Lee Yin sing learned more Jook Lum from another master after he learned from Chung Yel Chung he also new Chu Gar Southern Mantis before he studied Jook Lum.It appears that the students of Wong Yok Kong and Lee Yin Sing also still argue about things concerning Jook Lum that Wong Yok Kong and Lee Yin Sing argued about and it has been brought to Great Britian or England with there students.It was thought that the argueing was over but it seems Simon Wong has brought it back to life.

[FIRE HAWK]

Posted by Jack on February 19, 2001 at 17:59:46:
I see where Simon Wong, self proclaimed "Spiritual Master" and creator of Yellow Dragon Kung Fu, the UK, mix of Southern Praying Mantis & Yang Family Tai Chi Ch'uan, had his web page taken down by Yahoo. The alleged "Buddhist Spiritual Master" launched a protracted series of personal attacks on Steve Richards and Steve's family on his web site. Yahoo finally said enough of this rubbish and disabled his site. Very unBuddhist like, cowardly behavior on the part of Simon and his collection of cult based groupies. Simon's a total fraud as his supposed "lineage" within the Kwongsai Jook Lum Gee Tong Long Pai is shot through with errors and lies. A public declaration of challenge to Kong Sau will be published in a couple of local UK newspapers in the near future calling on Simon to put his hands out or close his school. Good stuff and it will be interesting to see just what the little weenie does in response to same. Just goes to show that "Karma" is something that is real as "What goes around comes around" proved true in this case. Jack

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hey Firehawk!

I've been told not to get involved with 'politics' by my Si-Fu and I know Lee-Yin-Sing's inheritor, his son Grandmaster lee-Sun-Wah
(Lee-Lien Ah Gore) would not be intereested but, just to say that you rae right that WYG and LYS 'fell out' but, the trouble in the UK was to do with my Si-Gung the late LYS Master Ho-Sing who chased a VERY VERY senior WYG master out of Liverpool UK - closing his school down. SOME of WYG's people never forgot that and had bad attitudes towards Ho-Sing's students (one of whom was my Si-Fu - he is now disciple and nominated co-successor to GM Lee-Lien). It should be said also that many of LYS's and WYG's descendants in the UK are not only good friends but also study each others Pai. There is no 'trouble' between the Pai as such, but some individuals have tried to cause it, s**** being stired on other forums from some J-L people from "another" branch not in the UK. We should try to be friends and concentrate on our common ancestry. Some of us can "do it" why not the others?

[Shawn Pecks]

The problems most are between different peopl and should not be held against lineage. Meaning the system remains the same. There is always going to be people who try to mess things up. I think this is why some of the old schools waited so long to show any of the good martial arts to the people they trusted. I think the smaller the style the more this goes on. If people hear there is going to be someone putting on a demo in their area most dont praise it they condem it, if it isnt from their branch. They try to get people to stay away by boring them with the personal attacks of their branch, instead of letting the indiviuals judge for themselfs. This type of thing starts with the teachers of the art. I'll bet any rumor you hear about a teacher in the same art but from a different art, can be traced to the teacher of your branch. He is most likely the one who started it. If not he can nip it in the bud, by telling his student this guy is OK. If your teacher says he's OK, most likely you will pass it on. But instead, they say this guy is this or that and you pass it on. Before long there is a war between branches. It does nothing good for your system. Everyone wants to be the leader. Everyone wants to be right. If the Master of the system wanted you to be the inheritor of his art? He would make it clear before his death, and knowone would doubt it. It would be clear. If he did not make anyone the inheritor, he had his reasons. He may have left pieces here and there, and it is up to those people to get together and put it together.If they cant? Then maybe their students can. But it did come from the same tree. And the Master was not only right with you. Open your mind. Your not that good. Learn from all branches of the system. You can do this without hurting your branch. You dont no everything. If it looks a little different? But has the same root, it is your system. Just because your teacher dont teach this way, dont make the other guy wrong.Maybe your teacher didnt learn this way. I have taken instruction from many different people in the same class and they all teach different. When they get on their own, they teach the way they understand. Some people learn on a much higher level. *****, but it is true. Some people see what others will never see. Screw the trouble makers, they are not going to do you guys any good. Most likely they have knowthing to teach any way. For the sake of the art, get together. Learn from each other. You will soon see, "You dont no that much"

Pecks

[toddbringewatt]

Thank you all for all of this wonderful dialogue on the subject. This has been most enlightening, educational and helpful -- in many many ways.

Thanks again and I can only hope it will continue. It would be wonderful to use this forum as a springboard for the creation of a "who's who and where" database within the Jook Lum community. Only qualification being your claim as such (a Jook Lum practitioner) and the integrity of those who would evaluate that claim.

Anyway, thanks again all.

Todd

may the force be with you

[fukien]

http://www.yellowdragon-music.co.uk/pages/frontarticle1.htm :D

[toddbringewatt]

Fukien,

What specifically did you want to point out to me?

may the force be with you