Black Tiger Steals Heart - 7 Star [Archive]

mantis108

08-06-2002, 05:26 PM

"I have been intrigued by this method, "Black Tiger Steals the Heart" since I first heard about it. As far as I am aware it is specific to 7 Star but I am no authority on this. "

First a recap:

In 7* 14 Road Tan Tui

Road #5 He Hu Tou Shin (Black Tiger Steal Heart).

1. Right Avoid Hardness Ready for Foe disposition (or Right Bi Shr)
2. Right Hiking stance Right filing punch/upper cut
3. Right Hiking Stance Left straigh punch (to the face)
4. Horse stance Right steal heart punch
5. Right Forearm Chop plus Left low kick
6. Repeat to the above (Left side this time)
...

This solo exercise is similar to a partnered drill which Tainan Showed me. In Tainan's drill step 2 to 4 is shadowed by the partner. So both side repeated the same 3 moves (very important they count as 3 counts) targeting at face and solar plex. In a sense, it's like Kali sticks drills. This partnered drill is main right hand and centerline oriented. It also employs 2 important concept - centerline and simultaneous offense and defense. As seen in the above, the power generation method is more of a Long Fist type (twisting of the hip) while the power generation method that Tainan showed me is more of Inch power delivery. Having said that, I must say that they are just different ways to carry out the power generation. It does not mean that one method is superior than the other. Also Tainan's drill is like a "hanger" or a connecting hub which many different techniques can attach to it or even other show drills can be added on to form a even more complicated drill.

Apparantly, the 14 Road Tan Tui partnered version of this road as designed by GM LGY is not a shadow drill. It would seem that he had something else in mind. If anyone is interested I will further discuss this.

"Ironically I may have been practicing this method for several years without knowing it as I was not taught to associate this classic name with any given form, method or technique. "

I hear you. I believe we really need to canonize PM terminology.

"I would very much appreciate it if someone could enlighten me on what it is ? Does anyone know what it is or in which forms it shows up in ? "

Like you, I would love to find out more about it too. :)

"Also, what are "8 Forbidden Strikes" ? Is Black Tiger Steals the Heart one of them ? "

8 Forbidden Strikes (Baat Butt Da in Cantonese) and 8 Strikes (Baat Da) are targets to strikes at. 8 Forbiden strikes are lethal areas and 8 strikes are not so lethal. In CCK TCPM Sau Fa, there is a Black Tiger Steals the Heart techniques (different form the above drill) which uses the attack without blocking concept. We have a thread about the BBD and the BD on TJPM forum before. I will have to look it up and post a link if you are interested.

"Also, do we know how Black Tiger system got into 7 Star (or PM in general ?) and what is the distinctive characteristic of Black Tiger ? I am aware that there is a "Black Tiger" system, is this where it came from ?

Laviathan wrote:

Black Tiger
According to Yuen Man Kai's book "Northern Mantis Black Tiger Intersectional Boxing", the Song dynasty general Yue Fei learned martial arts from master Zhou Tong. Prior to this, Zhou Tong already taught two disciples, Lin Chong and Lu Junyi. The Black Tiger Stealing the Heart technique was the favorite technique of Yue Fei. The fighting styles of both Lin Chong and Lu Junyi was used by Wang Lang to create the Praying Mantis style. It is possible that the Black Tiger technique was a skill of Zhou Tong which was passed on to Lin Chong, Lu Junyi and Yue Fei respectively.

I am not sure how this can be substantiated. Lin Chong and Lu Junyi would be 2 fictional characters (like Ying Ching) that came from the novel "Water Margin". There are claims that Lin Chong and Ying Ching were real people and created MA styles which is noted in the "18 styles Peom" [I have actually seen the title said "Discourse of Short Strikes" not 18 styles poem] . How does the teacher of General Yue (accredited creator of Eagle claw and possiblely the strongest advocate of adopting Xing Yi into Chinese military system.) relate to Black Tiger style (in Shandong)? Remember Shandong was not within Song Emperors' control at all throughout the Song dynasty, which was a very weak regime. It would be interesting to see the connection. Until then we'll have to treat this piece of info with caution.

Regards

Mantis108

Laviathan

08-07-2002, 08:26 AM

TO MANTIS108:

I agree that the story about Zhou Tong and Yue Fei are based on legends and can not be considered 100% correct. I am sceptical about it myself. But I do want to add some personal views on this matter:

I am not sure how this can be substantiated. Lin Chong and Lu Junyi would be 2 fictional characters (like Ying Ching) that came from the novel "Water Margin". There are claims that Lin Chong and Ying Ching were real people and created MA styles which is noted in the "18 styles Peom"

The story of the Water Margin novel is based on real historical events (the uprising of 36 heroic bandits in Shandong Province) . The author Shi Nai An took the names of these 36 heroes and added 72 fictional characters. But the most important ones like their leader Song Jiang etc. were real historical persons. So Lu Junyi, Lin Chong and Yan Qing might have existed as well. It is said that the Mandarin Leg Method of Lin Chong and the Tumbling Techniques of Yan Qing were two of the 18 styles which formed the foundation of Wang Lang's Praying Mantis system.

Remember Shandong was not within Song Emperors' control at all throughout the Song dynasty, which was a very weak regime.

You're mistaken. The area of Shandong Province was part of the Song Empire during the Northern Song Dynasty (960-1126) but it was occupied by the Jin during the Southern Song Dynasty (1127-1279). Zhou Tong, Lu Junyi, Lin Chong and Yan Qing (if they really existed) lived during the end of the Northern Song while Yue Fei lived during the transition of Northern to Southern Song. During that time, Shandong Province was still Song territory.

It would be interesting to see the connection. Until then we'll have to treat this piece of info with caution.
I totally agree with you on this.

Bye,

Lav

mantis108

08-07-2002, 12:22 PM

First and foremost, welcome to the board and the discussion. :)

"I agree that the story about Zhou Tong and Yue Fei are based on legends and can not be considered 100% correct. I am sceptical about it myself. But I do want to add some personal views on this matter: "

Glad you feel the samw way.

"The story of the Water Margin novel is based on real historical events (the uprising of 36 heroic bandits in Shandong Province) . The author Shi Nai An took the names of these 36 heroes and added 72 fictional characters. But the most important ones like their leader Song Jiang etc. were real historical persons. So Lu Junyi, Lin Chong and Yan Qing might have existed as well. It is said that the Mandarin Leg Method of Lin Chong and the Tumbling Techniques of Yan Qing were two of the 18 styles which formed the foundation of Wang Lang's Praying Mantis system. "

Now, this is indeed most fascinating in that the 18 styles of which 2 are possiblely created or mastered by Lin Chong and Yin Ching who were bandits at the time and were showcased or rather invited to teach at the Henan Shaolin Temple; thus, was alledgely recorded by the abbot of the time. The timeline is very important here. It might make or break an important claim that Wang Lang was a Song dynasty figure rather than a Ming dynasty one. So we have to treat this very carefully.

"You're mistaken. The area of Shandong Province was part of the Song Empire during the Northern Song Dynasty (960-1126) but it was occupied by the Jin during the Southern Song Dynasty (1127-1279). Zhou Tong, Lu Junyi, Lin Chong and Yan Qing (if they really existed) lived during the end of the Northern Song while Yue Fei lived during the transition of Northern to Southern Song. During that time, Shandong Province was still Song territory. "

Thank you for pointing that out. I might have mistaken but I will double check on it. So as the theory goes, if Wang Lang was a contemporate of Lin Chong and Yin Ching then he would have lived arround 1126 CE and his stuff would be arround just a bit early then General Yue; however, such a formidable style didn't catch the eyes of a great general? I find that totally unexplandable. I mean General Chi, during the Ming dynasty recorded what he deemed as powerful systems of fighting especially related to his line of work. Granted, General Chi didn't mention TangLangquan neither. But He did mentioned 8 Hard and 12 fluid principles (for weapon training not hand to hand combat). So personally, I found these material points more to Wang Lang not likely to be a Song dynasty figure and might not even have set foot on the Henan Shaolin temple. BTW, that's just my views.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It would be interesting to see the connection. Until then we'll have to treat this piece of info with caution.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I totally agree with you on this.

Great, thanks. I would love to hear more of this stuff from you. Thanks for the pleasurable sharing. :)

Regards

Mantis108

PS, I think Lin Chong is good at spear as well (as per the novel) and that might just be the reason of his developing good kicking skill. I will discuss that if someone is interested.

Young Mantis

08-07-2002, 01:38 PM

This is indeed an interesting discussion and while I can't say I'm am very well versed in my Chinese history or the novel, "The Water Margin", I have also heard all these stories and theories before.

However, I don't recall that these legendary figures were ever claimed to be contemporaries of Wang Lang. Even though the poem and our history credits them as being 2 of the 18 styles making up the Praying Mantis System, I don't ever recall hearing that Wang Lang studied those styles directly from these two men.

I would think it more likely, since our history says that Wang Lang was alive during the Ming dynasty, that he took the special skills of these famous martial artists which even at his time were figures in history and added them to the style.

Just my thoughts on this discussion.

YM

Laviathan

08-07-2002, 02:29 PM

To MANTIS108:

Thank you! It is an interesting theory that Wang Lang was a man of the Song dynasty instead of the Ming. Throughout Chinese history, people have used events from the past to reflect current political situations. The Northern Song dynasty was destroyed by the Yürched tribe who established the Jin dynasty. The Yürched were the ancestors of the Manchurians who, centuries later, overthrew the Ming and founded the Qing dynasty. Legend says that Wang Lang was a martial artist living at the end of the Ming who saw the uprising of the Manchurians. But if Wang Lang lived during the end of the Song, his lifestory would have been almost exactly the same (downfall of dynasty, bandits and rebels everywhere, invasion of foreign tribe etc), just a different timeline. Could it be that Wang Lang was actually a Song person whose lifestory was used by Ming dynasty martial artists to reflect the political situation of that time? Just a thought.

General Yue Fei might not have learned about Wang Lang's Praying Mantis (if Wang Lang really lived at that time) because Wang Lang was still developing his style while Yue Fei was busy fighting the Jin. When Wang Lang was ready, Yue Fei might have already died. Or Yue Fei might not have been interested in Wang Lang's Praying Mantis because it is an unarmed fighting style which is great for self-defense and hand-to-hand combat, but is not really effective in 12th century warfare. But then again, I don't know how ANCIENT Praying Mantis was like... :(

During my humble research on Praying Mantis kungfu, I once searched for the name of Wang Lang in Chinese history books. Turned out that this name was quite common, almost every dynasty had a Wang Lang... :confused:

But lastly, I would like to say that I actually share the view of YOUNG MANTIS. :D

But it is still an interesting theory though...

Maybe you'll have to find out about the other 16 styles... did all of them already exist during Northern/Southern Song?

mantis108

08-07-2002, 04:02 PM

Hi Laviathan and Young Mantis

First off, thanks for the inputs. I feel that I should clarify my position on different theories out there about the origin of PM. Here are some of them

1) Wang Lang being a Song dynasty figure (contemporate of Emporer Zhao Kuangyin [927-976 CE] ) and taught a style know as Tanglangquan at the shaolin temple throught the invite of the Abbot at the time. There seems to be claims that this could be support by historic documents (ie an article similar to the 18 style poem recently discovered) which I have heard of but not read them. This form of TLQ is believed to be have nothing to do with current TLQ in Shandong province which is passed down mainly through one main source GM Liang Xue Xiang (1810 -?). BTW, there is a suggestion that Wang Lang's TLQ passed down to a nameless outlaw and somehow the GM Liang's Grandteacher learned it for the outlaw.

2) Wang Lang being a late Ming and early Qing dynasty figure and retired at a Taoist temple in Lao Shan mountain (Shandong province). It is through a wandering Taoist that TLQ brought Wang Lang's creation to the secular world. There is a dedication at the temple (nick name Wang Lang temple) on Lao Shan Mountain to commerate that. However, there is a suggestion that this might be a fabrication for tourist attraction.

3) Wang Lang is merely a legendary figure. The current TLQ was brought back to Shandong province by GM Li Bingxiao who learned it from a nameless outlaw during the Qing dynasty (Qianlong reign 1736-1796). This might be the reason for adopting Hsing Xiao Dao Ren's Shaolin Classics series to hide the fact that a government offical (GM Li) learned a martial art from an outlaw. Much of the TLQ concepts, theory and perhaps even forms are the effort of GM Liang. This is support mainly by the local news articles, city records, etc. BTW, CCK TCPM's own accounts on this matter shows a lot of similarities to this. Except it somehow skipped 2 generations. So it became the outlaw taught GM Liang instead of GM Li. Also the inclusion of Wang Lang as well.

Personally, I am more inclined to go with theory #2 and/or #3 but I played devil's advocate for #1 until it can be ruled out entirely with undisbutable prove. It is hard for me to think that the modern Wushu Disneyland (Henan Shaolin Temple) has anything to do with the current Shandong Tanglangquan.

Regards

Mantis108

ursa major

08-08-2002, 05:53 AM

Originally posted by mantis108
[B...First a recap:

In 7* 14 Road Tan Tui

Road #5 He Hu Tou Shin (Black Tiger Steal Heart).

1. Right Avoid Hardness Ready for Foe disposition (or Right Bi Shr)
2. Right Hiking stance Right filing punch/upper cut
3. Right Hiking Stance Left straigh punch (to the face)
4. Horse stance Right steal heart punch
5. Right Forearm Chop plus Left low kick
...
Regards
Mantis108 [/B]

From the original post this thread has turned into a vine of knowledge. Mantis108, Laviathan and Young Mantis -- thx to you all for your time and effort in making your knowledge public and available to all of us.

Now as fascinating as the history discussion is, I would like to spend a moment to clarify on Road #5 of 14 Road Tan Tui, He Hu Tou Shin.

On another post there was a suggestion that the 2nd Set of Route Essence contains the 'Black Tiger Steals Heart' method. But after reading your 5 step method I cannot find the combination in the order you have it in 2nd Set -- or any other forms that I practice.

Many of the 7 Star forms I practice have a particular 5 step routine of simultaneous attack and defence. Here is the 5 step method I have been taught through various forms that I had previously thought might be 'Black Tiger Steals Heart' method:

1) right medium stance with right hook intercepting from left to right with left hand supporting.
2) right hiking stance with left palm to center with right hook.
3) right hiking stance with right intercept hook and left hammer chop.
4) right horse stance with left intercept hand and right drilling punch.
5) right hiking stance with left palm trap and right back-fist.

This sequence typically ends with a right toe kick as you fall back to a 'cat' stance with both palms in ready position.

I thought the 5 step method that I described above was the 'Black Tiger Steals Heart' but it differs in too many ways from your account.

The 7 Star Black Tiger forms (Cross, Steps From Cave and Steals Peaches) that I practice have all 5 of the steps as you describe them but never in that order.

Do you know if WHF has a book on 14 Road Tan Tui ? Perhaps I need to see or learn this form to resolve this issue of mine ?

thx for your comments,
UM.

Tainan Mantis

08-08-2002, 06:41 AM

ursa major,
On your 5 techniques defining BTSH I am having trouble following.
Intercept is jie, which is not used in this technique.
I don't understand drilling punch, but I do understand palm trap.
Palm trap is feng or sealing hand. It always precedes that backfist.

On the quote from Mantis 108 2-4 are BTSH. But the essence of it is in 3 &4.

On your 5 techniques it is what you wrote before #5, the backfist.

Working Backwards:
In HK 7* 2nd route of Essentials it is the two or three techniques preceding the backfist -groin kick-closing hands(your ready position)

WHF has giving some good explanations on this as well as mentioning Yueh Fei. I'll post it later.

Tainan Mantis

08-08-2002, 06:42 AM

Laviathan,
I am always looking for good history books.
Which books go into detail about Yueh Fei?

ursa major

08-08-2002, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
ursa major,
On your 5 techniques defining BTSH I am having trouble following.
Intercept is jie, which is not used in this technique.
I don't understand drilling punch, but I do understand palm trap.
Palm trap is feng or sealing hand. It always precedes that backfist.

On the quote from Mantis 108 2-4 are BTSH. But the essence of it is in 3 &4.

On your 5 techniques it is what you wrote before #5, the backfist.

Working Backwards:
In HK 7* 2nd route of Essentials it is the two or three techniques preceding the backfist -groin kick-closing hands(your ready position)

WHF has giving some good explanations on this as well as mentioning Yueh Fei. I'll post it later.

Tainan Mantis thx for your post. I was hoping not to create more confusion from my poor description of 5 steps in the form -- my apologies.

Drilling Punch - is for example while in right hiking stance facing north then intercept opponent's attack with your left outside fore-arm turning this into a grab of attacker's limb and pulling it high to south with left arm while turning to right horse stance on north/south axis as you do so, then punch due north with right fist to opponent's mid-section. This is a common posture in many 7 Star forms that I practice and can be seen often in WHF books -- horse stance, left fist high over head or left shoulder, and right fist striking straight as an arrow to the side. I picked up the term 'drilling punch' from my Li Kam Wing book.

Tainan Mantis do I understand correctly that the essence of BTSH is the two step method of left face strike (high) in right hiking stance followed by transition to right horse stance with left grab and right punch low to mid-section ? If so then I have finally solved my riddle of what is BTSH for this is in just about every 7 Star form (if not every form) I practice.

Thx also for the insight of working backwards from the backfist -groin kick-closing hands. This makes it all much clearer. Do you plan on writing any books on 7 Star or have you written any books yet ?

thx,
UM.

BeiTangLang

08-08-2002, 10:23 AM

UM,..I think this is correct except for the grabing when throwing the heart stealing "piercing" punch. In my studies, (I know there are always variations), this is a "block-less" punching series of movements that happen in a very rapid (5 movement) succession<sp>.

Anyway, I have enjoyed this thread & hope this is not the last of the informative posts.

~BTL

mantis108

08-08-2002, 12:52 PM

I must say I enjoyed the history discussion alot. But time to get back to technique. :)

First off, we have to remember that a drill is only a mean to an end not the other way around. There are myraid of drills to convey the same concepts and techniques. In the HHTS there are 2 major components to remember - the concept of stealing (Tou) and the technique of steal heart punch.

First, we will have to understand the concept of stealing in PM. It is generally understood as open the gate (door) or rather defense and "sneak in" to take something (a shot). There are myraid of ways to open the gate. BTW, IMHO there is a difference between "breaking and entering" and "open and sneak in". ;) Wether by attack low first (restain opponent's counter hand) and then attack high (restain opponent's counter hand) to achieve what we would consider an opened position (of the opponent) [re: high low] and then perform the steal heart punch, or vice versa with the protocol it is the same. So we can develop many different drills out of the concept. The key point to remember is that Stealing unlike Trapping, the window of opportunity is very small. If the guy has very good listening skill in his hands, the rate of success is not very high; therefore, a rapid firing of the steal heart punch is very important. You don't take all day to steal from people. ;)

Second, Steal heart punch can be done in 3 ways.

1) a reversed punch (crockcrew and fist heart face down)
hip twist type power generation. Kind of drilling because of the crockscrew motion

2) a Sun punch (fist heart faces left for the right punch)
hip twist or one inch type power generation

3) a pheonix eye or eagle beak punch (this would really be drilling)
torquing type power generation

With these 2 key points in mind, I think you can see the HHTS as it is. BTW tiger refers to the powerful right hand punch (left hand hanging high or chambered). So most of the HHTS drills conventionally has the right hand punch in horse stance as the pièce de résistance since tiger occupies the right side in Chinese culture.

Hope that helps.

Mantis108

Laviathan

08-08-2002, 01:30 PM

TO TAINAN MANTIS:

I do not know about any good books specifically on Yue Fei. My knowledge of Yue Fei I got from reading his biography in the Nan Song Shi (History of Southern Song), which is quite detailed.

Ershiwu Shi Xinpian Xilie: Bei Song Shi/ Nan Song Shi
Editors: Zhou B., Wang Z., Yang Q.
Publisher: Zhonghua Shuju (Hongkong) Limited
1998
ISBN 962 231 928 9

You can also try this book:

Zhongguo Jiangshuai Dazhuan
Publisher: Gongshang Chubanshe, China

Many books on Yue Fei are more based on legends than on historical facts. The above-mentioned 2 books are quite good, hope you can find them.

Hope this can help you.

Lav

Young Mantis

08-08-2002, 03:29 PM

That was a greatly detailed description of Black Tiger Steals Heart by Mantis108 and I would agree with everything said about it although personally, I don't train the phoenix eye punch very much.

I'm sure this has been said in one way or another already but BTSH as illustrated by 7* 14 Road Drill #5 can be broken as thus:
- the technique of actually taking the heart is shown by #4.
- the theory of BTSH incorporates the combo #3-4 as the preceding high punch sets up the opening for the Steal Heart punch (as pointed out by Tainan and exactly what Mantis108 was describing about stealing).

BeiTangLang, if understanding the BTSH as a theory, then whether you grab going from #3 to #4 is irrelevant since you would have already created the middle opening for the #4 punch. Some of the forms such as Daw Ghong illustrate this technique with the left hand in a supporting position near the right shoulder (w/o grab). Meanwhile, other forms such as Tchap Tchoi illustrate the technique with the left hand high above the head as you execute the #4 punch (w/ grab). In either case, the technique is still BTSH. The difference is whether or not you control one of your opponent's hand when doing this technique and also the flavor of how you apply it.

Going even further, BTSH does not have to be executed from a horse stance just as Mantis108 has stated that it does not have to be a reverse punch as is the case in most of the forms. In fact, when applying BTSH with the Sun fist, I am usually in a cross-leg or twisting stance.

Great thread and good luck to all in your training.

YM

Mantis9

08-08-2002, 04:46 PM

Mantis108.

Could you clarify your difference between "breaking and entering" and "open and sneak in" as it pretains to BTSH. If I understand you correctly, this designate how the heart is stolen, yes? Pershaps, Bei Tang Lang's description of a 'blockless' series be the 'open and sneak in' and the left hand suspending the opponent's left arm to strike the other.

I am familiar with this technique, however from what I'm reading hear it seems the essence of BTSH lies in it striking the heart meridian and the employment of either soft method 2 "If Attacked, Then Reach The Opponent First," 10 "Deflect An Attack Upward Then Attack" or 11 "Open The Opponents Inside Gates Then Attack Close Inside."

Comments?

mantis108

08-08-2002, 06:00 PM

Hi Mantis9,

Good question. :)

Breaking and entering would be deflecting and/or bouncing off a bridge or both (usually aquired the inner gate already). It can be done with chopping motion (sort of defanging) as well. Upside is that it is very speedy attack. The downside is that you have no control of the opponant's hands. That could lead to a slug fest kick boxing plight. With open and sneak in, you have some control over at least one bridge, which you can use it for your reserved moves (ie Chin Na), should he has good listening skill and able to counter your steal heart punch that is targeting the solar plex (re: 8 forbiden strike). Both methods have their own merit. Personally, I prefer safty then speedy. :)

I agreed that the some 12 fluid principle can be used in conjunction with the punch. But then we have to be careful not to go so far as to deminish the original intent of the concept of Stealing in PM.

BTW, I am not familiar with BeiTanglang's drill. So I can't comment on that. If he doesn't mind sharing his drill, we might get a better perspective with it. A somewhat blockless BTSH move indeed exsit in CCK TCPM. It is just one move not five though.

Regards

Mantis108

mantisben

08-08-2002, 09:34 PM

************************************************** **
BeiTangLang, if understanding the BTSH as a theory, then whether you grab going from #3 to #4 is irrelevant since you would have already created the middle opening for the #4 punch. Some of the forms such as Daw Ghong illustrate this technique with the left hand in a supporting position near the right shoulder (w/o grab).
************************************************** **

BTSH is one of my favorite techniques and I didn't even know it by name! One of the 2 ways I execute it is:

1) Right Monkey(?)/Hiking stance, throw a right Filing Punch
2) As soon as I see the opponent's right hand try to block the punch, I "clear" with the left hand, then shuffle into a horse stance and "Steal The Heart" with a right Drilling Punch to the ribs, left hand near shoulder. Usually, it is easier for me to strike the ribs than the "Heart". I guess I just need to practice more.

What a great thread!!! What a great technique!!! Since Yue Fei was know for this technique, I'll bet it was *GAME OVER* for whoever's "Heart" he was "Stealing"!!

BeiTangLang

08-09-2002, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by Young Mantis
<snip>
BeiTangLang, if understanding the BTSH as a theory, then whether you grab going from #3 to #4 is irrelevant since you would have already created the middle opening for the #4 punch. Some of the forms such as Daw Ghong illustrate this technique with the left hand in a supporting position near the right shoulder (w/o grab). Meanwhile, other forms such as Tchap Tchoi illustrate the technique with the left hand high above the head as you execute the #4 punch (w/ grab). In either case, the technique is still BTSH. The difference is whether or not you control one of your opponent's hand when doing this technique and also the flavor of how you apply it.
***
I suppose that it is because we use HFTS (BTSH) as a set unto itself as well as a theory.
Grabing in between #3 & #4 can accomplish the same end, but as you stated, it is "irrelevant since you would have already created the middle opening for the #4 punch.". Hence the "stealing" of the heart rather than it being just another trapping motion if you grab. In either case it is called a heart stealing punch, but as a set of motions, I feel (and this is just my opinion & you know what opinions are like) the triple upper, one to the heart & another upper strike in done quickly without grabbing best encompasses the BTSH as a stated technique.
Thank you very much for sharing your insight on this & I will re-evaluate my thoughts on this as I continue my training.
***

Going even further, BTSH does not have to be executed from a horse stance just as Mantis108 has stated that it does not have to be a reverse punch as is the case in most of the forms. In fact, when applying BTSH with the Sun fist, I am usually in a cross-leg or twisting stance.

***
Interesting. I will have to work on this a bit to understand what you are saying. I am guessing that you are talking about BTSH as a theory at this point?
Thanks again.
***

Great thread and good luck to all in your training.

YM

Indeed a great thread & thanks again for your input.
~BTL

ursa major

08-09-2002, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by mantis108
... First, we will have to understand the concept of stealing in PM. It is generally understood as open the gate (door) or rather defense and "sneak in" to take something (a shot). There are myraid of ways to open the gate. BTW, IMHO there is a difference between "breaking and entering" and "open and sneak in". ;) Wether by attack low first (restain opponent's counter hand) and then attack high (restain opponent's counter hand) to achieve what we would consider an opened position (of the opponent) [re: high low] and then perform the steal heart punch, or vice versa with the protocol it is the same. So we can develop many different drills out of the concept. The key point to remember is that Stealing unlike Trapping, the window of opportunity is very small. If the guy has very good listening skill in his hands, the rate of success is not very high; therefore, a rapid firing of the steal heart punch is very important. You don't take all day to steal from people. ;) ...

Hope that helps.

Mantis108

Yes, this helps very much and there is so much to digest here. Stealing vs. Breaking & Entering, this sheds much light on the forms and there is much for me to re-consider with this way.

thank-you mantis108,
UM.

mantis108

08-09-2002, 11:31 AM

Hi Ursa Major,

You are most welcome. Glad you find this of help. I hope others will share more inputs soon. :)

Regards

Mantis108

mantisben

08-09-2002, 02:24 PM

Is #9 of 7* PM 14 Road Tam Tui (Filing Punch, Clear, Drilling Fist) the same as the Black Tiger Steals the Heart?

Mantis9

08-09-2002, 02:43 PM

beauty of PM. Its like good jazz. You take a tune like twinkle twinkle little 7* and add and subtract layers of variation. Tweek it there, smooth it out there. Be more explict like a Charlie Parker or implict like a Miles Davis.

The technique is there, but, as most have described already, the intent, setup, transition, execution, and follow up can all be changed, being "careful," as Mantis108 stated, "not to go so far as to deminish the original intent of the concept."

I believe this is why so many of the post reflect a "waitaminute, I do something similar, but it looks like..." theme.

Just my two cents
:)

Tainan Mantis

08-09-2002, 06:05 PM

mantisben,
The 9th exercise you refer to is called "stick" hand. As in the 7th rigid technique from the 8 rigid 12 flexible.

The Stick technique is done by "B"

A: right stance-right low straight punch

B: right stance-left sealing hand(pushing down type block/grab)-
right inverted straight punch(your filing punch)

A:right high block(bi sho/closing hand)

B:left lifting hand-to lift A's high block even higher so it can't go down,
right low straight punch

Last year I opened on a thread on this specific technique, stick, because in several cases different characters were used which completely changed the meaning.

It seems that there is a difference in different schools on what this technique is.
The above method follows my teacher, Shr Zhengzhong's, teaching as well as WHF and Luo Guangyu's 14 roads.

On looking at the older manuscripts in Ilya Profatilov's collection, as well as some other related sources, the word "bind" is used.
They both sound similar, but "stick" and "bind" have different implications.

Anyway, the stick method works very well and is comprised in many styles of MA.

Tainan Mantis

08-09-2002, 06:11 PM

Thanks for the book names.
Those look like Chinese history books.
That is better than reading the translation if your Chinese reading ability is top notch, but mine isn't. I like to read the translation.
The exception is those books that will probably never be translated into English such as MA specific books.

mantisben

08-09-2002, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
mantisben,
The 9th exercise you refer to is called "stick" hand. As in the 7th rigid technique from the 8 rigid 12 flexible.

Forgive my ignorance, but according to the references that I use for the 8 Rigid and 12 Flexible Methods (mainly Lee Kam Wing's first book), the 7th rigid method is something like "Left & Right Alternate Roundhouse Punches".

Is there a chance that you meant the 9th Flexible Method "Attacking Instantly After the Downward Pressing Movement"?

Do you know of any detailed descriptions/explanations of the 8 Rigid Methods and the 12 Flexible Methods anywhere on the internet? Are they exclusive to Northern 7* PM or are they present in other Chinese Martial Arts?

Also, did you ever learn the different implications between between "Bind" and "Stick"?

mantisben

08-09-2002, 09:24 PM

Tainan Mantis,

Pardon my newsgroup ettiquete.

Thank you for replying to my post.

I have MUCH respect for your knowledge of Martial Arts. I've read many of your posts and they absolutely sound like they are coming from someone with profound knowlege and respect for Martial Arts.

Thank you for sharing!

Tainan Mantis

08-10-2002, 06:04 AM

mantisben,
No prob on the ettiquete, from my experience all MArtists are polite and humble face to face with only rare exceptions.
But it is hard to type politely.

About your Lee Kamwing reference for the 7th rigid you are correct.

But other sources list the 7th rigid as I have written it.
Most notably is WHF's copy of the ancient Sheng Shao Dao Ren manuscript.
I have been wondering why Lee's book has this one difference which I consider to be quite a big deal.

The 8 rigid-12 flexible are part of the oldest PM traditions and date to at least Sheng Shao's 1764 book.
There are only some hand copied versions available and they don't match exactly. Ancient versions of the typo.

Supposedly Sheng Shao copied from older Song texts which is the basis for the Wang Lang from the Song history. In fact there is some historical evidence for this, but until everyone makes public their versions of the ancient manuscripts it will be hard to verify conclusively.

The earliest written version of 8R-12F that I know of is a short passage in a Ming dynasty book. But it refers to weapons and, at least in my mind, is a loose puzzle piece.

BTW, Stick as in staff. A noun that has no relation to the verb "to stick".

mantisben

08-10-2002, 10:52 AM

Thank you for responding to my post, and answering my questions.

Laviathan

08-11-2002, 03:15 AM

The exception is those books that will probably never be translated into English such as MA specific books.

It's hard to find good books on Chinese history nowadays, and those ones that are good don't go into detail on Yue Fei's life.

But I can translate the biography of Yue Fei into English for you, if you're interested? :)

Tainan Mantis

08-11-2002, 04:53 AM

I have some info on him, but I feel it is incomplete.
We can open a thread on the Shaolin forum and contribute our knowledge with references.
I think some other people over there know a lot about him, too.

Laviathan

08-12-2002, 02:20 AM

To Tainan Mantis:

That would be great, I was thinking about it myself. OK, let's do it. But please give me a few days to translate the chinese text.

Greetings, LAV

Tainan Mantis

03-09-2003, 05:57 AM

Well, I finally found the reference to Yue Fei and Black Tiger Steals the Heart.

It is from a FICTIONAL novel about Yue Fei.
It was a popular novel in the Ching dynasty.
At one point it was even banned by the emperor.

"Shuo Yue Chuen Chuan"
The English translation is called General Yue Fei translated by T.L. Liang.

In the 62nd chapter(a long book) Yue Fei's son, Yue Lei, engages in hand to hand combat with a friend of his deceased father.

The man doesn't even know who the boy is, but on seeing the technique, Black Tiger Steals the Heart, immediately stops fighting and demands to know how the boy learned Yue Family Boxing.

Interesting points to note.
Every chapter is full of fighting and less than one percent of the fights are empty hand.

Also, in this thread were references to Wang Lang from the Song dynasty.
In my version of Sheng Hsiao's old manuscript I have tracked down an old quote that first appeared in General Chi Jiguang's military treatise of the late Ming dynasty.
This book was extrmely popular and his writings where borrowed, reprinted and downright plagarized in many books following.

This particular quote is origanilly from Sun Zi Bing Fa. But it was corrupted in Genral Chi's version.

The Sun Zi Bing Fa book of the Song Dynasty is the uncorrupted version that was later matched to much older documents.
This would mean that at least this part of Sheng Hsiao's manuscript almost definetly followed General Chi's manuscript.

Also, the untranslated book, Chuen Jing, that has its origins in Hsuan Ji Shaolin monk from the end of the Ming has some aspects that connect to PM.
For example, there is in PM Shan, Zhuan, Teng, Nuo. This is also in General Chi's book.

In Chuen Jing shan-zhuan becomes pien-shan. The meaning is practically the same.
It is defined as the method where the weak can defeat the strong and the definition matches my understanding and teaching of this concept.

Just one part of the puzzle.

Laviathan

03-09-2003, 11:05 AM

Dear Tainan Mantis:
Sorry for having let you wait for 8 months, I totally forgot about the whole thing! But here's my translation of Yue Fei's biography... it's only historical though, not much martial arts value.

Yue Fei (1103-1142), second name (style) Pengju, resident of Tangyin in Xiangzhou (present-day Tangyin prefecture in Henan province). Yue Fei was born in a poor farmer family. Before he reached the age of twenty, he was already known as an incredibly strong man who could handle both bow and crossbow. In the field of archery, he was unsurpassed, never missing a target. He also excelled in spear-fighting. He joined the army in 1126, when the Yürchen tribe of the Jin dynasty invaded China and conquered the Song capitol of Kaifeng. The old emperor Huizong and his son, the newly crowned Emperor Qinzong were taken hostage. In the battles with the Jin, Yue Fei many times charged into enemy troops on his own, slaying Yurched commanders.

The following year in 1127, prince Zhao Gou, the younger son of Emperor Huizong, crowned himself as emperor of the Song. He is known in history as emperor Gaozong. Gaozong decided to retreat to the south, leaving the Northern haertland in hands of the Jin. The young Yue Fei objected and asked permission to lead troops to retrieve the lost lands. Emperor Gaozong did not listen to the low-ranked Yue Fei. Yue was forced to resign. Yue Fei then joined the ranks of commander Zong Ze. Zong Ze thought that Yue Fei was extremely talented and encouraged him to study military tactics instead of relying solely on brute strength. Since then, Yue Fei studied the ancient classics on warfare and eventually mastered the art of war.

After the death of Zong Ze, Yue Fei came under the command of general Du Chong. In 1129, the Song troops retreated to the south. In the same year the Jin crossed the Yangtze river and invaded the Southlands. Du Chong was defeated and surrendered to the Jin. Yue Fei escaped and re-grouped the defeated Song troops, forming an independent fighting unit. He then lead his troops to retrieve Jiankang (present-day Nanjing) from the hands of the Jin. Despite the shortage of food and equipment, the disciple was held high. Yue Fei lived together with his soldiers and did not enjoy any luxury. His orders were strict: "Even if we freeze to death, we will not enter civilian homes, even if we starve to death, we will not plunder."

In the following years, Yue Fei crushed rebellions and wiped out roaming bandit troops, securing the internal peace of the Southern Song. He recruited many troops and his army grew to a number of 30.000 warriors. In 1134 he launched his first northern expedition and drove the Jin out of Hubei Province. The Song government then appointed Yue Fei military commander of Hubei. The next year, Yue Fei crushed the Yang Mo Rebellion at Dongting Lake. The rebel army surrendered to Yue, and at the same time the Imperial Government sent more fighting units to serve under Yue Fei. Yue's troops then grew to a number of 100.000, the largest army of the Southern Song at that time.

Of all the military commanders of the Southern Song, Yue Fei was the youngest, and his fame and reputation stirred the jealousy of many people, including Emperor Gaozong himself. Gaozong's infant sons all died shortly after birth and for years the emperor has failed to produce an heir. When Yue Fei advised the emperor to adopt a young prince of the imperial family as son, Gaozong's hatred for Yue Fei secretly started. In 1138, the Song made peace with the Jin Empire. Yue Fei strongly opposed, and Gaozong's hatred grew even more.

In 1140, total war finally broke out between north and south. Yue Fei and his northern expedition army were winning battles after battles. Jin Marshall Wanyan Wuchu, in seeing Yue Fei retrieving the territory lost by the Song and pushing the Yürched back to the North-East, sent a letter to his spy at the Song court… Qin Gui. Chancellor Qin Gui advised Emperor Gaozong to issue an edict ordering Yue Fei to avoid the decisive battle and pull back to the south. Within one day, Yue Fei received twelve Imperial Golden Edicts, he had no alternative but to obey lest he would be charged for insubordination. Yue Fei then sighed: "All our efforts of the last ten years, ruined within one day!" Yue Fei and his northern expedition army were ordered back to the capital. The Emperor rewarded all the generals who took part in the northern expedition. Yue Fei was appointed as the Deputy Minister of War. With this appointment Yue Fei was being stripped of his duties as the commander of the northern expedition army. But Yue Fei continued to urge the Song Court to recapture the north. Qin Gui told the Emperor that Yue Fei had to be eliminated and the Emperor agreed. In the year 1141, Emperor Gaozong ordered Yue Fei and his son Yue Yun to be arrested on charges of conspiracy to overthrow the Song Court. Father and son were falsely tried for high treason and sentenced to death.

In prison, Yue Fei closed his eyes, did not say a word and refused to eat. Many court officials and civilians protested against imprisoning Yue Fei. But Emperor Gaozong ordered Qin Gui to kill Yue Fei secretly in the year 1142, while his son Yue Yun was publicly executed. Yue Fei died at the age of 39.

B.Tunks

03-09-2003, 06:55 PM

Hello all,

Mantis 108, I tend to agree with most of what you've noted regarding Wang Lang (Song vs Ming, Shui Hu Zhuan characters etc, etc). One thing sticks in my mind though; the total disregard of the other influential Li, Li Zhizhan, in the development of TLQ.
I think perhaps you have given a little too much credit to the Li Bingxiao side of the tree, for creating much of what we now call Tanglang (though I can understand why). Like always, we could argue this point forever...
The technique/combination in question, Hei Hu Tao Xin for example, originally comes from the Qixing tradition. By the way, the drills and explanations provided by all on this thread are just some of the many interpretations of the technique. Hei Hu Tao Xin is played in many different ways. There is no accepted 'correct' or standard method.
Adding to the confusion,
B.T

mantis108

03-10-2003, 12:56 PM

Thank you for your input. I understand that I have only presented mostly Li BingXiao's lines accounts. As you know I am not in the position to draw a theory from the 7* accounts since I only dabbled in 7* material on the side. I mostly have internet or books to work with on that. As you have said before, that kind of research can hardly paint a fair picture of things. So I reframed from drawing a theory from the 7* perspective. I am certainly interested in hearing your views on that matter which I believe will shed more lights on the origin of TLQ as we know it.

As for the He Hu Tao Xin, I am sure that we would all love to learn more about it from your training perspective (ie drills, applications, etc...) It would be great if you would share something from the mainland Qixing Tanglangquan.

Warm regards

Mantis108

B.Tunks

03-11-2003, 05:26 AM

Hi again Hui Sifu!

O.K, I will try to give a brief description of Hei Hu Tao Xin as a drill (solo drill). This one comes from Qixing in Qingdao as passed down through two sides, Yang Weixin (via Xiao Shubin) and Lin Jingshan (via Hu Yongfu and Li Zhanyuan). Hei Hu Tao Xin in all Qixing in mainland, is the combination of three punches (standing fists) in right, left, right series. The first two to the face, or face then throat, the third to the solar plexus or the base of the sternum. You can see this kind of attack as the second last motion of the last duan of Bai Yuan Tou Tao (which is basically the same as LGY's Tanglang Tou Tao). There is also an important use of the wrist as a block, that is hidden in the motion.

As a solo drill (starting to the right side).
Stand in infinity posture (hands at side, feet together, eyes front etc), pull fists to waist look right.
Step right in to Yu Huan Bu (90 degrees right), with simultaneous right punch (to enemies face).
Immediately (but not until punch reaches full extension), follow with second punch (left fist), in our Qingdao family, generally at the throat, face is also good. Make certain of full lateral extension of torso (still in Yu Huan Bu). Right fist is chambered close to right chest, not back to hip.
Body twists left as right fist punches to solar plexus (slightly downwards, body sinks) This can be struck in Yu Huan or Ma Bu even Si Liu Bu if preferred, though Yu Huan is generally used for all three strikes in this drill, with twisting hips and a certain degree of knee motion upon torso rotation.
Pull fists to hips, raise up (still looking right), right side Spade kick (can also be substituted with Yuan Yang Jiao, Bi Men Jiao).
Body weight falls left as kick retracts to cross step (ala Zhaiyao Yi Duan, coupled with Tiao Zhang but in this drill, minus the double slapping palm blocks), head turns left (first!), immediate 180 degrees left step into left Yu Huan Bu.
Sink down as both open hands (palm hearts down), shoot upwards and outwards (left leading) in a winding arc, coming down with Cai (both hands clearing and grabbing), pulling opponent in towards body (can be a double grab or deflection of the arm, leg, body or head, though generally the arms).
Both hands turn to fists shooting out in an upwards forwards arc (again lead by left fist) to double simultaneous punches (generally with dragon or elephant nose fist) at throat level (also can be directed at pectorals or armpits), which are both spring energy strikes, rebounding to guard posture (closed fists) in left Yu Huan Bu.
You can either step forward into right Yu Huan and repeat drill or stand up to start position to begin again.
This is ideally to be mastered on the left and right sides.
@#$*%$! That was tiring. I hope its not too confusing and helps to illustrate the variance of such techniques within the different families.
Thanks,
Brendan Tunks

B.Tunks

03-11-2003, 05:38 AM

This bit isn't too clear,

Body weight falls left as kick retracts to cross step (ala Zhaiyao Yi Duan, coupled with Tiao Zhang but in this drill, minus the double slapping palm blocks),

I meant in Zhaiyao the retreating cross step after the first kick that in most PRC Zhaiyao has a double scooping/slapping palm block and then leads to Tiao Zhang (or double palm guard posture). I didnt mean that there is also Tiao Zhang, there is not. Just kick and cross step with both fists being drawn to the hips.
Of course in fighting, the fists have no reason to withdraw to the hips here, but this is a formal drill and trains jiben gong.
hope that helps,
B.T

mantis108

03-11-2003, 01:30 PM

Thank you very much for the impressively detailed description of your solo drill. I am wondering if you do partnered drill with it as well? It is interesting this drill seems somewhat like the basic drill lead side 3 punches [with or with out the stomp]. I believe the terminologies of the stances are somewhat different between the mainland and the HK 7stars also. It might be difficult for some to visualize the move. Just a thought.

Warm regards

Mantis108

Tainan Mantis

03-11-2003, 09:48 PM

We have some similar drills.
So , Brendan, you are saying that BTSH is just the three punches but the other stuff is part of the BTSH drill?
If so our teaching is about the same.

Interesting to note that in the Liang Hsuehsiang lineage there doesn't seem to be this name for this technique.

Do you think it has the character "stealing" because BTSH employs stealing principle in the technique?

Laviathan,
That is your own translation?
You appear to by quite talented. Do you plan on doing an entire book or something along those lines?
And thank you for providing this tranlsation it is very useful.

Laviathan

03-12-2003, 03:41 AM

Yes, it is my own translation. Thank you for your compliments. :)
I really do hope I can translate some good martial arts books or Chinese history books in the future.
Or even better: Jin Yong Wuxia Novels!

Your welcome,

Lav

B.Tunks

03-12-2003, 03:46 AM

Brothers,

Mantis 108 wrote:

I am wondering if you do partnered drill with it as well? It is interesting this drill seems somewhat like the basic drill lead side 3 punches [with or with out the stomp].

There are partner responses to most if not all drills, the response to this drill is a little redundant however and is not exactly a requisite for skill development. This drill is an elementary drill and I suppose it may correspond somewhat with the drill you mention, though the intent and stepping method may not.

also:

I believe the terminologies of the stances are somewhat different between the mainland and the HK 7stars also. It might be difficult for some to visualize the move. Just a thought.

You are right. This stance is more commonly labelled Ru Huan Bu or some may call it kneeling stance or circle/ring entering stance, in english (though it isn't really a kneeling stance).

Tainan wrote:

So , Brendan, you are saying that BTSH is just the three punches but the other stuff is part of the BTSH drill?
If so our teaching is about the same.

Yes. Though it is practiced in several other drill combinations, this is a common example.

Also:

Interesting to note that in the Liang Hsuehsiang lineage there doesn't seem to be this name for this technique.

I have been told the same by Meihua and Taijimeihua descendants. However it is certainly present, at least by name in other Meihua branches. Maybe Robert can elaborate.

also:

Do you think it has the character "stealing" because BTSH employs stealing principle in the technique?

I am taught that it is the same Tao Xin as in Tao Xin Chui (which is also sometimes expanded to be called Hei Hu Tao Xin), as in; the effect of the punch on the internal organs including the heart 'takes away' , stops or severely damages the heart (of course in intent only). This is of course only one explanation. This technique is also translated as dig out, rip out, draw out, or pull out the heart.
Lovely!
b.T