Basics, Basics, Basics.....

[red5angel]

Basics, Basics, Basics……

Grendel said in another thread he felt I hadn’t talked really about basics so lets get started shall we?
First of all, let’s list each one and why it is important:

Root – The foundation of wingchun, without it you cannot maintain your ‘balance’ or your structure. With it you can stay solidly connected to the ground and deliver energy from it up through your body to your target.

Structure – Somewhat interchangeable with root, structure is the connecting of your body through the joints, ligaments, bone and muscle. With structure your root becomes more solid and it allows you to take energy in and direct it through your body and into the ground, using the ground as a virtual ‘wall’.

Precision – being precise is key and is used in many ways, precision of structure, if you don’t get to know your body and learn to connect it, then you cannot redirect energy away from you. Precision in striking. If you cannot keep your structure precise then how do you expect to send you energy precisely where you want it to go?

Sensitivity – Sensitivity for feeling your opponents energy, where is, where is it going? Sensitivity to your own energy and what it is doing. An awareness of all that is going on with your opponent’s body and energy and your own body and energy.

Am I missing anything? Anyone have any new insights into these things?

[Zhuge Liang]

* note * I moved this post cause I put it here by mistake. I've moved the post to the Red5Angel thread...

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=203503#post203503

[red5angel]

Zhuge, I appreciate your concern and I understand what you are saying, as well as I have understood what all the others have said. I dont want to get into too much of this arguing anymore, this thread is about basics. I have been accused of no 'meat' in my post so here it is................lets talk about the basics, you guys ar ein the same lineage so add if you see fit, or dont, ad anyone else who is not in the same lineage can add or discuss as they seem fit.

[gnugear]

How about relaxation?

Without relaxation, there is no sensitivity.

[yuanfen]

Basics? Rooting?
Rooting is function specific...sumo, judo, goju,aikido, taiji, wing chun...

Sensitivity based on relaxation? Drunks are often fairly relaxed fellas...but not necessarily sensitive!

[{i^(]

Whew! Just got a spare 5, so I'm in for this, kinda (it'll be dodgy). I'll be nice...after all, that's what you're doing, red5!

I've a question. Let's just take one of these, say rooting. Then one aspect.

HOW _precisely_ does one 'draw and deliver' energy from the floor? I mean to say: mechanically, how?

Yes, I've my own ideas on it, but I'd like to see your comments. I won't pre-judge them.

[anerlich]

Assuming for a moment that this isn't going to veer off into yet another Carl Dechiara advertorial, I'm willing to play.

Rooting, structure, precision and sensitivity are aguably hallmarks of many CMA, and other martial arts as well. It could be argued that they apply to many physical endeavors, not combat related. Shooting, archery, skiiing, surfing, skating and other endeavors IMO have closely analogous qualities which underpin efficient and effective performance.

What aspects of these qualities/attributes, or others not listed, are unique to Wing Chun? What makes WC different to, say, taiji?

Wing Chun has rooting (not so much the Australian meaning, more's the pity). So does taiji and other arts.

WC has structure. Structure is paramount in many arts. From structure comes leverage. Structures vary between WC lineages too.

WC has precision. Some Karate styles leave it for dead in that regard - "the fist must be ****ed at an angle of 74.5 degrees from the horizontal, and held two finger widths distant from the right nipple", that sort of thing.

WC has sensitivity. Chi Sao hardly gives it the franchise, though. Mant other CMA have sensitivity drills. So do FMA. Grappling is totally tactile. Those guys roll blindfolded too.

Please try and get through this thread without such standard copout rejoinders along the lines of "it can't be explained in words, you have to come to Minneapolis to find out" or "people that don't agree with me don't understand and therefore must do bad Wing Chun." And avoid references to sunshine and butts. Just for one thread?

[burnsypoo]

lotsa kinds of basics though.

Most physical activites (sports and MA alike) can all relate to eachother through a handfull of simple attributes. These are useful as part of a running checklist to guide your own training.
-BP-

[black and blue]

Well, I've not been to many WC clubs in the UK but I would imagine these four things are taught in most.

* YJKYM and Wing Chun's stepping teach root and structure, IMO.

* Dan Chi Sau, Bong/Larp drill, Chi Sau teach structure, sensitivity and precision, IMO.

* The forms teach all four, IMO.

These four basic elements are found, like others have said, in many martial arts.

I have a book on Tai Chi called 'Tai Chi Theory and Martial Power' by Dr Yang, Jwing-Ming. I'm not really interested in studying Tai Chi, but I'd recommend this book to anyone studying a martial art. It's really fascinating, and precision, root, structure and sensitivity are discussed in great detail.

* I'd add Forward Intent to my list of basics. When playing with much bigger opponents, I find if I don't have this... I'm in trouble. If I do have this, their size isn't too much of a factor. But forward intent is also in the forms, so I guess I've already mentioned it.

Duncan

[black and blue]

... seeing as that's unlikely... post some mpegs of yourself, your class etc.

I can't help but think the things you're doing are the same things most Wing Chunners are doing.

Seeing you in action would help a little. Borrow a camcorder and tape your forms, some sparring, some chi sau. As we can't can't all touch hands, this would at least give a little indication.

Duncan

[red5angel]

Gnugear, B&B - great! Forward intent and relaxation, both very important!

"Face" - We use a demonstration for new people in which we put them against a wall, line up their elbows and have them push. You cant resist it. Then we say, now you just need to learn to us the floor as your wall. As all of these basics are tied in, structure is important for being able to draw that energy out and up through your body. A good example is the idea of the substantial hand being always opposite the active or substantial leg. By some would say you were drawing that power from you loaded leg, but I say it is from the floor because without the floor your leg is insubstantial. Structure or connectedness is key to getting this power to the target, if your hip say, is disconnected , its like a hole in a water hose. I cant tell if I am explaining this very well.

Anerlich, I would say that most of these basics arent exclusive to wingchun, although I would say that some may play a more important role. For instance, many people say wingchun is designed for smaller people to use effectively against bigger targets. Precision is obviously important, all Martial arts practice it to some degree but it becomes even more important to hit your target if you are smaller or 'weaker'. Rootedness and structure are what allow you to deliver more power into your target, important if you do not have the mass, muscle or otherwise to use. I think any art would benefit from these foundational skills but at the same time, in wingchun, I think they deserve speciql attention. Would you prefer to be sort of rooted, or really rooted? Sort of precise or really precise? Practicing the basics over and over again has one important effect, if you are precise in your practice of the basics, then when the crap hits the fan and the worst of your habits come out, as they inevitably will, then the more precise you are in practice with these things, the more precise you will be in reality. not sure if this is going in the direction you are looking for?

Black and Blue- yes video taping at first sounds like a good idea but we all know that they dont always show the whole picture and definitely in my mind dont get any more across then talking. Touching hands is the only real way.

[black and blue]

R5A wrote: "yes video taping at first sounds like a good idea but we all know that they dont always show the whole picture and definitely in my mind dont get any more across then talking. Touching hands is the only real way."

Yep, I know it's not as good as feeling. Touching hands would be the ideal way for me to see your Wing Chun. But I live in the UK and you live in the US.

If you post up some mpegs I can at least see your STRUCTURE (eg. bong, tan, YGKYM, linking etc).

I can at least see your PRECISION (eg. How you move, how you place arms and legs, how you attack, where you attack, the success rate).

I can at least see your RELAXATION. When someone chi saus and they are tense/tight in the arms and shoulders it shows.

SENSITIVITY - I can't easily see this, I concede the point.

FORWARD INTENT - This I can see (eg. By your actions and motions)

So... post up some footage. I really want to see what you're talking about. Like I said, I think most of do this too.

Thanks

Duncan

[red5angel]

Duncan, I understand what you are saying but sorry no deal. Posting video up on the internet is just asking for trouble. Sure you can get an idea of those things but you dont really get the depth. Words being misinterpreted are bad enough but regardless of what I put up its just asking to get sucker punched on the internet forum by someone with not enough time. If you want, feel free to stop by the school one day........ Besides I havent seen too many other videos of people who are actually on this forum. A few have some websites out there with some bits of video.

[Alpha Dog]

Sunkuen posted some links a while back, those were enough for me.

[black and blue]

but I think if you're prepared to talk about the state of Wing Chun in the world and critique other clubs/organisations, you should do you best to show us what you've got.

I, for one, would very much like to see your WC in action.

If we can see Ken punching, lets see R5A chi sauing.

It's better than just talking.

Thanks,

Duncan

[gnugear]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
Sunkuen posted some links a while back, those were enough for me.

Were they links of Sunkuen?

I'd like to see them.

[red5angel]

AD is talking about the links Sunkuen posted of Carl and Ken, taken out of context of course, but imagine that, on this forum! :eek:

B&B, whats better then that is touching hands, or visiting, like I said, I may be in your neck of the woods in the next year or so, if I am I will let you know!

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by red5angel
AD is talking about the links Sunkuen posted of Carl and Ken, taken out of context of course, but imagine that, on this forum! :eek:

As I recall, Sunkuen didn't take anything out of context. Carl's site did not give a context, and none was suggested by Sunkuen. Perhaps you'd like to explain the pics or add some of your own.

Regards,

[red5angel]

john - Well, you seem to be a pretty smart guy so I assume you are joking or trying to bait me. I was not there when the pictures were taken and so couldnt tell you what was going on, but I am sure you are aware pictures dont always tell the whole truth. Carls email is on his site, if you need clarification I am sure you can email him to get it. sunkuens attempt at humor was obvious, as it is very easy to make fun of pictures and video when you dont understand what is going on.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by red5angel
Would you prefer to be sort of rooted, or really rooted? Sometimes "sort of rooted" is more advantageous than "really rooted". Martial art is about options not "have to's".

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by red5angel
john - Well, you seem to be a pretty smart guy so I assume you are joking or trying to bait me.

Hi Jason,

Neither one---not a particularly smart guy---Like Zaphod, I'm just a guy, you know :) ---nor am I joking. I am not aware that I was there when the pictures were taken, but I'm sure I could suggest a context for them. Since you are Carl's student, I thought you might know. No reflection on you; they're probably from before your time there.

I was not there when the pictures were taken and so couldnt tell you what was going on, but I am sure you are aware pictures dont always tell the whole truth.
I agree pictures can be apparently deceiving, but you seemed to feel free to interpret and disparage others's posted photos on other Wing Chun web sites, so it was fair game for Sunkuen to ask what he did, IMO. All he did was to point out that Occam's razor cuts both ways. This apparent failure of your "overwhelming arguments" reflects on your lineage as you have been repeatedly told.


Carls email is on his site, if you need clarification I am sure you can email him to get it. sunkuens attempt at humor was obvious, as it is very easy to make fun of pictures and video when you dont understand what is going on. I'll keep my opinion on that to myself for now. :)

[anerlich]

Would you prefer to be sort of rooted, or really rooted?

Jeez, throw me a line, redboy ... as an Aussie, there's just NO WAY I can reply to that.

OK, OK ... sometimes I want to be heavy, sometimes light. Sometimes connected, sometimes free.

[red5angel]

Anerlich, I suppose that can read much different in the land down under!

[{i^(]

Zaphod? Beeblebrox???? You have 3 arms? How do you chi sao? Can you really produce a smell that stuns critters??? Just asking...

[sunkuen]

It's nice to see someone that see's things my way. Those pics were not taken out of context they were simply posted up and red5 took care of the rest.You said "As I recall, Sunkuen didn't take anything out of context. Carl's site did not give a context, and none was suggested by Sunkuen. Perhaps you'd like to explain the pics or add some of your own."

Thank you for explaining it to them!!!

p.s. I gave a chance to them to post pics they felt were more appropriate.....nothing turned up.

[Alpha Dog]

The pole form and the YGKYM ones are forever burned in my memory!

[red5angel]

Sunkuen, its a good story anyway.....;)

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by {i^(
Zaphod? Beeblebrox???? You have 3 arms?

Not Zaphod---I need to use my whole brain. :)


How do you chi sao? Can you really produce a smell that stuns critters??? Just asking...
You should know. :)

All the best.