And, just to prove that I'm not always biased towards MMA being "street" proof...

[Ryu]

This is a similar experience to the WT one....... although this one deals with MMA. The thread was on Richard Dimitri's site.

Opinions, thoughts, ideas?

Ryu


I now understand what everyone here
is talking about. I'm a mixed martial artists and trained primarily in BJJ and THAI boxing.
8 years of training, only the last 5 very seriously. I spar hard, grapple lots, and fought two local MMA fights and won both. I train 5 days a week. This weekend I was humbled. A situation arose at a bar I frequent regularly on weekends with some of my buds.
One thing led to another and a fight broke out
between us (we were 3) and 4 other guys. I right away took my opponent down for a ground and pound (successfully I might add) but didn't paty much
attention to the 4th odd man out. The 4th guy
smashed me over the head with a beer bottle (which didn't shatter) but cut me open and knocked me right off my opponent. Half dazed, I clinched the guy and tried to take him down but the fuker bit my neck to the blood. I freaked and let him go to get him off
me and he hit me again with the bottle.
My friends were scrambling with the other guys until the bouncers finally decided to break things up and kick us all out.
Once outside the fight continued though but I was feeling very ill (nausea, light headed), I'm not sure why, maybe the blows to the head, maybe the adrenaline surge, not to sure. The fight was now more verbal and consisted of lots of shoving and posturing with a few punched thrown here and there. It quickly escalated though and I took one of the guys down again, this time he was going berserk under me. I tried to maintain a mounted position but every wild buck this guy made ripped my knees to sh1t. I finally dropped my weight on him to control him and choke him out but he bit me again across my arm (I'm all scabbed up on my arm), I couldn't maintain a grip on him long enought to subdue him as he was literally going berserk under me. One of my friends then stomped him in the head while I held him down and this seemed to calm him down. In retrospect, that could have been me under
there.

Needless to say, it was rude awakening. 22 stiches, busted up knees and about 5 bite marks later,
it was the most horrible experience of my life. I will continue my training in MMA but I will most
definitely be researching the more reality based systems like Rich and Sammy's. Anyone have any input on this?

[Merryprankster]

3 on 4, getting smashed over the head with a beer bottle.

Ground and pound in a crowded bar? Mount rather than takedown, knee on stand up and soccer kick the daylights out of your opponent?


Sounds like this guy needs some situational awareness training.

[SifuAbel]

"Anyone have any input on this?"

Yeah, he needs a better "stand up" game.

[Merryprankster]

Amen to that Abel. He needs to be able to determine WHEN you do things too. :)

[Suntzu]

after he took him down a 'leg' kick to the side of the fallen guys head sounds like the right pescription… hope he got full blood work done at thr ER… being bitten is not cool… see, I have to tell my friends… 'yeah I fight but in a ring…' … that bar fights and push and shove stuff is TOO real... getting stomped out and hit with a beer bottle i aint tryin to feel... real life aint the octagon or whatever... i know i could handle myself but i really dont wanna find out... i like to drink my beer not get hit over the head with one...

[rogue]

OK Ryu you've listed stupid WC, TKD and MMA stories. How about a stupid JKD guy story, or is JKD and stupid redundant?:D

[ewallace]

JKD concepts is not real JKD.

[Ryu]

LMAO @ ewallace! :D

Rogue, I'll try and find one soon. Give me some time :D

Ryu

[rogue]

Hey Ryu, if you can't find any JKD disaster stories just post some stuff about the love lives of JKD guys.


I once got to see SifuAbel in a bar fight once. These five guys started talking smack to him about how Zink was the real monkey king. He went into a horse stance and snapped his fingers and these two big guys jumped on his legs. Well everyone thought it was pretty funny until he used the two guys like human nunchucks and just destroyed the five smack talkers with them. It was a sight I soon won't forget.

PS Sorry Abel but I couldn't resist.;)

[Arhat of Fury]

No offense to MMA guys but that is why Thai fighting and groundfinghting is more of a sport and Kung Fu and other mentioned arts are arts.

The art of rendering someone out of comission with one or two contacts with that person.

I know this discussion can go on and on, but truly it doesnt take a master of 500years to employ these techniques.


Peace

AOF

[apoweyn]

Arhat of Fury,

That point really only makes any sense if there were a lack of stories like this one related to various other arts. And there isn't a lack. There's an example on this same page.

Stuart B.

[old jong]

Any strong guy with a good right hand could have knocked the guy out instead of playing UFC with him.This is a question of common sense...You can always use ground skills if you are taken to the ground...(or fall!) to get back up as soon as possible.Unless you fight a lonely guy with no teeth! ;)

[SifuAbel]

(in my best pachino voice) oh....................funny


180 lbs. escrima sticks, dayum.

This does remind me of an incident some of my students got into at Bermuda Bar in N.miami beach.
I don't know the intial details but the four of them basically cleared the bar. One of them was a state champ wrestler. He mostly sat on one guy and got a pool cue broken over his head. He held on, but the other guys had to go get him before the cops came.

[Royal Dragon]

I can just picture a bunch of little Abel's going monkey nuts at a bar:D :eek: :D :eek:

[ArrowFists]

::Yawn::

Who in their right mind would try to take someone to the ground in a multiple situation? Like someone else said earlier, you got to know when and where to do something.

MMA gives you tons of options. He said he had taken Thai boxing as a compliment to his Bjj training, that would have been a better option. A little Judo Nagewaza to compliment his newaza wouldn't have hurt either.

[Badger]

That's what the fool gets for drinking & getting into fights at a bar.



Badger

[jimmy23]

the problem isnt your style , it was your strategy. Dont take this the wrong way, but it was foolish to go to the ground in that situation.
'
"No offense to MMA guys but that is why Thai fighting and groundfinghting is more of a sport and Kung Fu and other mentioned arts are arts. "

uh, no, after he got the guy down he should have stayed up, or just bopped the fool out while standing. Kung fu wouldnt have helped a bit.

[Arhat of Fury]

I suppose a couple of well executed groin shots and some throat shots would have done it:confused:

[Ryu]

the problem isnt your style , it was your strategy


Uhhhhhhh.... this "experience" is not mine. (Thank God)

Someone else's post on another board.

Ryu

[TaoBoy]

Hopefully this guy learned something from the experience and he doesn't just go nuts doing groundwork to compensate for his lack of awareness.

Thanks for sharing Ryu.

:)

[jimmy23]

sorry ryu, i missed the disclaimer, eek!

[Croaker]

Umm, crowded bar, lots of friends...it takes a real man to want to fight on the ground there.

It takes a real smart man not to.

[Pantyz2k]

This guys an idiot for going to the ground right away.
He may have some good technical skills but he obviously has very little idea when he should apply them. He should have stayed standing and used whatever Thai skills he had
Plus once a guy starts biting then all bets are off, hit the buy in the neck and stomp on his crotch.

[Serpent]

You've really got to wonder why he went to the ground a second time! He already got clocked with a beer bottle the first time. This fool deserved a beating! Just goes to prove that people of all persuasions hold misconceptions about what they can and can't do.

He should've chi blasted all four of them back then in the bar and none of this would have happened.

[sweaty_dog]

This guy was the only one who actually saw what happened, maybe the ground seemed like the best option, although I agree with the guy who said Judo throws would be good, and also that elbows and knees might be a better idea in future. Frankly I am wondering how many of you that are saying he's an idiot would have failed miserably in the same situation, 4 way street fights are no fun especially when you've left your butterfly swords at home.

How's that for a first post?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by sweaty_dog
This guy was the only one who actually saw what happened, maybe the ground seemed like the best option, although I agree with the guy who said Judo throws would be good, and also that elbows and knees might be a better idea in future. Frankly I am wondering how many of you that are saying he's an idiot would have failed miserably in the same situation, 4 way street fights are no fun especially when you've left your butterfly swords at home.

How's that for a first post?

Typically ignorant and argumentative. Well done, you'll fit in well here.

And he is an idiot. He thought the ground was where he was invincible and that may be true for the ring, but in real life he copped a bottle round the head. Then he did it again. Stupid.

[sweaty_dog]

I can also be pompous and self deluding, looks like that should come in handy too. Also, please explain in which way I am ignorant. Do you train with a 12 foot spear rather than butterfly swords? Am in fact talking to a forum full of prison guards and riot cops? Look, I don't mean to say you are all just *****ing about this guy for no reason, he made some bad moves by the sound of it, but I think its pretty low to rip into someone who admits their mistakes, especially when you're under no pressure to show that you can do better. Maybe this forum is the exception that proves the rule, but I have found that the internet is full of experts ready to criticize but unwilling to leave themselves open to criticism.

Basically I am wondering what you would do in the same situation, and more to the point, what is your experience of similar situations? I don't mind saying I have been knocked out (briefly) in a street fight when I was STANDING with one guy and his friend punched me in the neck from behind. While I should have done a lot of things I didn't, it is easy now to sit back and say I should have done this and that from the comfort of a computer chair. When you are drunk, outnumbered and surprised it can be a lot tougher to make the right decision. It is never easy to face multiple people no matter what some guy on Panther videos tells you, especially when they have weapons.

Does the guy mention how big his opponents were? No. Does he talk about what a great takedown he did, and the damage he did on the ground? Again, no. I am guessing that a lot of people would have talked the whole thing up to make them sound like heroes, neglecting the fact that some of their actions were kind of dumb.

[Serpent]

Now that's more like it!

Ignorant assuming that butterfly knives would be relevant, even to a TMA, in a situation like this.

Sure, he's humble about it. That's great, because he'll hopefully learn from it.

I've experienced the knockout from behind thing too. I got a peice of fencing in the back of the head. That's how I learned the lesson about always keeping a wall or similar at your back in a confrontation.

So it's all good and he can hopefully learn. But that doesn't stop his actions at the time from being dumb and his delusions about his art and his abilities from nearly getting him killed.

[tnwingtsun]

Once again, text heavy but worth the read.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/index.html

[Crimson Phoenix]

Guys, many seem to miss the true humbling point...it doesn't matter if it was a mistake or not going to the ground, what matters is a different point...even casting aside the beer bottle episode in the context of multiple attackers, things were not that easy when hee was ONE on ONE with the guy under: when the guy was mounting, or trying to choke, he was severely hurt by a guy gone wild who BIT him and shook violently enough to slam his knees. He got bit to blood and the guy couldn't maintain his choke, he got bit to blood and had to stop his clinch and back off. He was mouting, yet this wasn't the total control position my ears get full of when we speak about good grapplers (TM). This has nothing to do with the way the multiple attacker scenario went, in that case it was a one on one issue: grappling wasn't as safe as some people claim even against just one attacker. It's strange that this part didn't strike you more than the beer bottle thingie.
I always hear things like "a good grappler (TM) won't get bitten, or even if he is, he can still choke the guy until submission" or "a good grappler (TM) has the control when on the mount and can prevent you from harming him severely".
The guy just realized IT IS NOT TRUE. There's always a risk...whether you're a good grappler or not. NOTHING brings you total control and security, NOTHING. It's something to fight (even a rough fight) in ring matches, and it's a whole other thing to fight someone gone wild.
Just like ritual combat in animals are much different from survival fights. Fighting an animal that feels threatened for its life is always dangerous...and humans are animals.
I'm going to maake a thread about it.

[crumble]

This story is just too perfect. A guy with great MMA skills that does everything wrong a MMA guy could. Ideal bait. :D

-c

[sweaty_dog]

<i>He was mouting, yet this wasn't the total control position my ears get full of when we speak about good grapplers (TM). This has nothing to do with the way the multiple attacker scenario went, in that case it was a one on one issue: grappling wasn't as safe as some people claim even against just one attacker. It's strange that this part didn't strike you more than the beer bottle thingie.
I always hear things like "a good grappler (TM) won't get bitten, or even if he is, he can still choke the guy until submission" or "a good grappler (TM) has the control when on the mount and can prevent you from harming him severely".
The guy just realized IT IS NOT TRUE. There's always a risk...whether you're a good grappler or not. NOTHING brings you total control and security, NOTHING. It's something to fight (even a rough fight) in ring matches, and it's a whole other thing to fight someone gone wild.</i>

Actually a good grappler generally DOES have the control when in a mount, and your chances of hurting him are far lower than his of hurting you. For what it's worth, pretty much anyone with half a brain is in a good position to do damage when they are sitting on your chest, since they can wind up a punch, use submissions, headbutt, elbow down, whatever. I think it's silly to say a good grappler is helpless on the street because one guy got hit from behind with a beer bottle and then scraped his knees and got chewed a bit. How is that being "hurt severely"? It sounds like most of the damage is from the guy with the beer bottle, not from the guys who were taken down and mounted. If I were fighting for my life on concrete I would consider myself very lucky if I got away with a bite or two and some bruised knees.

On the other hand, people that talk about absolutes like "a Grappler won't get bitten," or "the mount is the ultimate position, you can't be hurt there" are just as bad as the kung fu guys that say "All you need in Tai Chi is the form, all the martial movements are in that," or "Earle Montaigue can make a man drop dead by pinching his ear (but only between 9am and lunchtime on a Wednesday)." There are always idiots that think what they do is the ultimate and everyone else is wrong or stupid. No one takes people like that seriously.

[Rolling Elbow]

Ryu..its called reality and odds... what, do you think you are going to win everytime? Why bother with chockes and mounting. Just step all over the guy, who cares if you succeed at every move. Searching for more "reality based" systems? Man, you already do that..anymore reality and it is just constant sparring. Besides, you cannot duplicate malicious intent in the dojo...unless you let your friends bite you!

[Ryu]

Must I keep telling people that this WASN'T me :mad:

This is someone else's experience I found on Dimitri's site.

If I was in the situation I wouldn't use MA at all........ I'd try to OC someone's face, break a beer bottle over a head first, and get the hell out of there. :)

Ryu

[Crimson Phoenix]

See? The legendary good grappler (TM) again...just grand...he can do anything, safely, 100% security all the time...
reread his story, how he mentions his 22 stiches, his knees slaming on the floor and the pain of the bites...it makes the beer bottle episode much lighter...
I guess, in that paradigm, the guy was not a good grappler, cause if he had been one, al of this would have gone like butter :rolleyes:

[rogue]

Ryu, sorry to hear about the knees. Hope the stitches leave a manly scar that'll turn the girls on. Better luck next time my friend.:D

[Ryu]

grrrrrrrr rrrrrrrr!!!! :mad:


:D
Very funny, Rogue.




Bastids! This story isn't about me! LMAO!!

Ryu

[Badger]

Ryu-
You really need to quit going out, getting drunk & starting fights.

Growup & do something constructive(like writing books).



Badger

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
See? The legendary good grappler (TM) again...just grand...he can do anything, safely, 100% security all the time...


Of course, the good grappler® would never lose a street fight. God forbid!! Don't you know? The good grappler® 's mear presence sends people into a hypnotic trance that keeps them sedate enough for the good grappler® to finish them in no time.

Its been proven for a million years now that the good grappler® started life on this planet, gave us our laws and ethics. And, founded the mormons. Only the great good grappler® would think of letting us guys have multiple wives. He is after all a god.

I know, I know, why don't we hear about the good grappler® in the bible? Because in the old latin it was pronouced Bonus luchem®.

In the end the good grappler® could never be beaten because even if he tapped out , the sound would cancel itself out and teleport itself as a blow to the guys nose.

Not to mention that in a group he becomes invisible and all you see is a guy struggling with himself on the floor.

The 2002 good grappler® comes fully equipt with a GPS, front and rear radar, ionic forceshield, automatic groin cupholder and california emission .

[Braden]

Crimson Pheonix - Mr. Dog went out of his way to mention 'on the other hand' that the Good Grappler (tm) isn't invulnerable. All he's saying is that someone in a dominant position is much more able to attack and defend than the person he is dominating. This should be fairly straight-forward.

Everyone else - Food for thought: Maybe he took the guy to the ground because that's what he trains most often to do.

As an aside, please go see a doctor if you take a blow to the head like this guy does.

[sweaty_dog]

1)A good grappler is not unstoppable, he/she is a human being who has practised grappling and is good at it.

2)His/Her grappling skills may enable him/her to control an opponent when very close, TO A GREATER OR LESSER EXTENT.

3)The mount is a strong position for ANYONE. It is easier to hurt than to be hurt from the mount, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL.

4)a:The injuries the aforementioned gentleman suffered were, IN MY UNDERSTANDING, primarily caused by his being struck more than once with a bottle to the back of the head, NOT by his opponent trying to buck him off or biting his arm while mounted.

4)b: "The 4th guy smashed me over the head with a beer bottle (which didn't shatter) but *cut me open* and knocked me right off my opponent."

Hence the 22 stitches.

"he bit me again across my arm (I'm all scabbed up on my arm),"

You will note "scabbed up" as opposed to "stitched up,"
Human bites don't generally require stitches, just a lot of antibiotics.

If you think he got 22 stitches from grazing his knees on the ground, you are entitled to believe this, but I hope you don't operate heavy machinery.

PERSONALLY, I would not call 22 stitches a *severe* injury, I would save that for losing an eye, a fractured skull, a smashed knee etc, all of which are quite possible outcomes of a serious beating.

5)It is ridiculous to claim that grappling of any kind is the ultimate form of self defense and will protect people from all harm if someone seriously wants to hurt them. Some types of grappling do, however, offer simple and effective options that will give the victim of an attack a greatly improved chance of survival.

6)None of us know exactly what happened to this guy. However, he is one person. His experience is not any more significant statistically than Jason Delucia getting mashed in UFC by Royce Gracie (for those of you with better things to do than watch early UFCs, Jason Delucia did Kung Fu, Royce was a BJJ guy). *Neither incident is final proof of anything.*

7) I don't really care if you like grappling or not. Personally I do, I have spent a lot of time in the past on Kung Fu, external, internal, whatever, it has its place but my preference is BJJ because I enjoy it. If your style has served you well in all your street fights then don't change, but don't rip into a guy who made some simple errors unless you are SURE you can do better.

[sweaty_dog]

Also, thankyou Braden, I'm glad someone understood what I was talking about, and read past the first sentence.

[Ford Prefect]

Ryu,

I don't think you need to look for more "reality based" systems, but you should gear your training more to real life scenario's. Sorry to hear about your knees and getting bitten. Maybe next time, you won't let the beer do the talking.

[ewallace]

This is exactly what happens when you are too nice.

[Ryu]

You guys are punks LOL. I'm tempted to get into a real streetfight and post a the experience! :D


Ryu

[Badger]

Ryu,

You beer drinking, dope smoking hooligan.

Change your ways or be replaced with the "."

[ewallace]

Punks or no, hit me in the head with a beer bottle once shame on you, hit me in the head with a beer bottle twice....well that's just alcohol abuse my friend and you need some state-sponsored therepy.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Braden, yeah, that was kind of obvious...the dominating person usually has an edge on the dominated one...by definition...there's no real point...

Sweaty, I hear you...but once again, the "all things being equal" and "to a lesser or greater extent" make all the difference between theory and practice, and training and street fight.
I still wonder why you would care whether I liked grappling or not though.
All I can say is that you seem to me like a honest grappler, and that's all I ask for...I'm just tired of the guys really thinking their method is the end-all be-all of martial arts and personal defense.
Here's my number one credo since I have been in this forum: in a fight NOTHING is ever certain. NOTHING. When you listen to grapplers, too often it sounds like "this stuff will work all the time", or "in that position I can safely control my opponent". WRONG. You can't do anything safely in a fight, not even blink, not even breathe.
I love gong fu, it brought me many things, and saved my ass when it needed to be saved.
But I know that I could go down ANYTIME, even fighting an untrained person, or someone training in an art that everyone says is a fraud...it's the name of the game: everybody can go down, and it can happen when you least expect it.
What I don't like about my "good grappler (TM)" dude, is that often when I hear him talk he's just so convinced it'll work all the time.
It just won't.

[Merryprankster]

The only guy I know that thinks it'll work all the time around here is Ralek....

[Tigerstyle]

"I guess, in that paradigm, the guy was not a good grappler, cause if he had been one, al of this would have gone like butter
"

Hey that's no different than claiming a kung fu guy that loses in an MMA event wasn't "really" a kung fu guy :p





What's the difference between kung fu schools and BJJ schools?
Kung fu schools do all of their fighting internally. :eek:

... sorry. :o

[Braden]

:(

I was hoping some interesting discussions would spring from: "Food for thought: Maybe he took the guy to the ground because that's what he trains most often to do."

[SifuAbel]

"Hey that's no different than claiming a kung fu guy that loses in an MMA event wasn't "really" a kung fu guy."

Not quite. The GG(tm) DID what he was trained to do and just found a few surprises along the way. In contast, the supposed "kung fu" guy did NOTHING of what he was supposedly trained to do and just plain sucked all around.

[rogue]

You guys are punks LOL. I'm tempted to get into a real streetfight and post a the experience! The heck with that Ryu, go find a cutie and tell us about that experience.:D


What's the difference between kung fu schools and BJJ schools?Kung fu schools do all of their fighting internally. Oh pish, when has that ever happened?:p

[SDriver]

Could a good grappler train another grappler so well that he himself couldn't take him down?

Get well soon, Ryu.

[NorthernMantis]

Hey don't worry about it Ryu. Look forget about what they say and do what any self-respecting judoka with a phase 1 certificate under Paul Vunak would do... get an Asian girlfriend. No she doesn't have to be Japanese, any will do. Let the good grappler (tm) roll with other men :D :D :D

[Tigerstyle]

Is that Phase 1 Certificate still good? ;)


SifuAbel,
If he really was a good grappler™, then he would have dumped the guy onto the floor with a slam, and be up and ready for the next guy :p . Then he would use his Atomic Hurricane™ and Mega Smasher™ attacks to clear the whole bar.

[KC Elbows]

Look, we already covered this. I shot the good grappler, he's dead. I also shot the good kung fu fighter while he was thinking about eye gouges, and the good MMA died when I ran a Winnebago over him while he was debating whether he wanted to stand up or lay down. Of course, the good wing chun guy would've been a problem, but I just put a camera on him, and his form went to hell.

I'm still working on how to kill the good systema guy.

[ewallace]

I'm still working on how to kill the good systema guy. May I suggest tainting his vodka with hemlock?

[KC Elbows]

Perfect.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Tigerstyle
Is that Phase 1 Certificate still good? ;)


SifuAbel,
If he really was a good grappler™, then he would have dumped the guy onto the floor with a slam, and be up and ready for the next guy :p . Then he would use his Atomic Hurricane™ and Mega Smasher™ attacks to clear the whole bar.

The 2002 GG(TM) could just use his california emission.

[jimmy23]

" Of course, the good wing chun guy would've been a problem, but I just put a camera on him, and his form went to hell."

HAHAHAHAHHAHQ!!!!!!