A challenge to Shyun

[PaulLin]

Here is my challenge to Shyun or any of his student to show:

1. the exact dates of his profession at the Chinese Medicine institute as a Professor.

2. the official name of this institute.

3. The years and exact building of which he has won his 5 consecutive championships in Chinese Martial Arts tournaments.

4. The official name of the tournaments.

5. The exact name of the place he claim GM Wei lived back in Taiwan's mountain.

6. The address his father and family lived back when his father was a rich man.

If he is what is claim he is, he should have no problem to recall these.

[TaoBoy]

Excuse my ignorance....but who is Shyun? And what did he claim that has upset you so?

:confused:

[Brad]

The 8 step mantis grandmaster?

[PaulLin]

Go to the 8step.com, and you will see the GM Shyun who I am talking about. I am not really angry that much with him, it is just he has a grand student named Stacey in this forum tries to challenge my knowledge of 8 steps mantis. That is in responds to his ignorance.

[jon]

PaulLin

With total repects to yourself i couldnt help but find this comment a little worrying.

"I am not really angry that much with him, it is just he has a grand student named Stacey in this forum tries to challenge my knowledge of 8 steps mantis. That is in responds to his ignorance."
* I think you will find that Stacey does not exactly hold much sway here in terms of factual unbiased opinions. Infact most of recall the name changes, ranting, lying, moaning, disrespecting.
What I am trying to say is that i would be very carefull to avoid allowing Stacey to sway your opinion on anyone in ANY way.
I have followed some of your views on this subject and respect totaly your position but at the same time i would be wary of starting wars over the rantings of an online persona.

Putting all of this aside i have to wonder why this really worries you so much?
I can understand it on the level of it being disrepectfull in your culture but in the western world what he is doing is actualy very standard.
To be frank most with any sence will see the overpricing the overrelience on grades and fee's and become naturaly sceptical. A little further research reveals that most of his claims can not be backed up so mentaly we write the school of.
When it all comes down to it...
If he CAN get fools to pay him that much money to go though what they do, let him do it. He is happy...
You have the real deal, you know what you have and what you can do. Why let him bother you? He just wants his money, why not just let him have it?


All the best and hopefully you will not take offence or view this as out of place. Although not of your art im certainly your junior and i hope you dont take this as disrepectfull.
All the best, happy training.
Jon

[count]

James Sun's kung fu is alright, but his claims are like Al Gore saying he invented the internet. I don't blaim Paul Lin who is in line, but I don't think this post or the other one will accomplish anything. People have a natural fear of hearing the truth and it prevents them from learning or advancing. It's their own kharma. You can't fix it.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by jon
PaulLin

With total repects to yourself i couldnt help but find this comment a little worrying.

"I am not really angry that much with him, it is just he has a grand student named Stacey in this forum tries to challenge my knowledge of 8 steps mantis. That is in responds to his ignorance."
* I think you will find that Stacey does not exactly hold much sway here in terms of factual unbiased opinions. Infact most of recall the name changes, ranting, lying, moaning, disrespecting.
What I am trying to say is that i would be very carefull to avoid allowing Stacey to sway your opinion on anyone in ANY way.
I have followed some of your views on this subject and respect totaly your position but at the same time i would be wary of starting wars over the rantings of an online persona.

Putting all of this aside i have to wonder why this really worries you so much?
I can understand it on the level of it being disrepectfull in your culture but in the western world what he is doing is actualy very standard.
To be frank most with any sence will see the overpricing the overrelience on grades and fee's and become naturaly sceptical. A little further research reveals that most of his claims can not be backed up so mentaly we write the school of.
When it all comes down to it...
If he CAN get fools to pay him that much money to go though what they do, let him do it. He is happy...
You have the real deal, you know what you have and what you can do. Why let him bother you? He just wants his money, why not just let him have it?


All the best and hopefully you will not take offence or view this as out of place. Although not of your art im certainly your junior and i hope you dont take this as disrepectfull.
All the best, happy training.
Jon

The response form Stacey is over at the Northern Praying Mantis forum. I have to tell you more that you don't know. Shyun has used his money form the fools to try to threaten my kungfu uncle(who truely learned form GM Wei, has nothing to do with his own inventions) when he decieded to teach the real 8 step. If he still claim the false lineage and used it to blocking the real ones to surface, I think there is a very big problem to be solve.

I don't intend to have any thing to do with his current business. In fact, the people who were attracted by his way of advertising don't fit to learn form us any ways. To learn the real stuff, the mind, focus, body condition, and living environment all have to support it. If one cares more about super fancy fantasies or can't be carefully enough to spot the suspicious detials, or care about being/becomming some one big rather than the knowledge itself. That kind of people are not what we interesting to teach anyways.

The most important point is he should stop harassing other real 8 step with his money-backed-up-law-sue-threats. So that people can choose among his own invention and the real thing. So if he would like to go for the laws, I will go for the public acknowledgement. People have their own brain and eyes to see what is the truth. He shouldn't have the right to control the 8 step system(except the ones has learned only form him) that he falsely calimed.

Aslo, I don't want to have him steal the real one(just outter immages), then up date his old invention to include them, to make it looks better then the real one to the outsiders. Again I would say he don't even have the most basic requirements correctly in 8 step. The real 8 steps is much better than what he is able to do/teach.

[PaulLin]

By the way, if Shyun claim his own invention rather than try to rob other's right of lineage, I would encourage him, or even help him. All he have to understand to imporve his inventions are the functions/characters of each stance, steps, hand tech. and what makes them works and what gives disadvantage. But if he reserved the power of blocking other real 8 steps to surface, I will not agree.



I have just notice that I am locked out form the future posting in this thread. I can only respond in other way rather than replying the new message. No one noticing me what is the reason for this.:mad:

[Stacey]

Paul Lin is full of sh*t

he claimed that he would fight Master Shyun and that Shyun was hiding from him. Even when given his address he wouldn't go to back up his claims.


Everyone is invincible from the sidelines.


BTW...what kung fu styles have won in NHB tournaments?

Oh yeah 8 Step Praying Mantis a la Grandmaster James Shyun's students.


How exactly does he overcharge? What does Yang JWang Ming charge for forms? How about Su Yu Tsang and Adam Su? How about others? Its very comparable...and if its more, its worth it.


For those of you who say its a scam, have the balls to back it up with your forms and 2nd rate kickboxing. We don't fall into the kickboxing trap because we know what were doing......think you know better?

Back it up with your fists.

[Syre]

The claim that Shyun's 8-step was successful in NHB competitions is not exactly true.

The person you are referring to is Joel Sutton. As far as I know, he's the ONLY person every to seriously study 8-step who won even one fight in NHB. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Here is his record:

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/displayfighter.cfm?fighterid=107

He won TWO FIGHTS in UFC, not the competition, then lost his next 4. There is a video of one of his losses here:

http://www.sherdog.com/cgi-bin/miscmatches.pl?wvc6/wvc6_anjos_vs_sutton.zip

Note that he loses immediately, and by being punched, not grappled.

When he started completing, he identified himself as an 8-Step Praying Mantis figher:

http://fighters.itgo.com/S.html

But, according to the Pancrase official site, he currently lists his martial arts backround as judo, jiu jitsu, sambo, Thai boxing, karate. He doesn't even mention 8-step at all:

http://www.so-net.ne.jp/pancrase/en/fighters/s.html

Shyun's art could very well be great, so this is not a criticism of him, however when NHB results are cited, they ought to be accurate...

[Stacey]

he's one of three. And his base was in 8 Step...he later got booted for personal actions and then claimed it hadn't anything to do with his training. Thats his business.

There is also another in SD and another in Iowa that kicked ass in local bar cage events and was approached by a promoter to go pro. He told the guy to shove his contract up his ass because it was pure exploitation...he went to college instead.

[Le nOObi]

Does anyone have any information on the " International Full Contact Martial Arts Championships" That shyun competed and won in?

[rubthebuddha]

same one that o.e. simon won for so many years.

[count]

Interestingly, I have spent time with all of the teachers you mentioned except Yang. His books are great though, and he openly shares good information which at one time might have been reserved for closed door, inner court students. Now this information is freely shared by all. It's not exclusive to any one teacher or school. You are not the only school that fights with their style and does not rely on "second rate kick boxing" or forms. Good on Joel for putting it on line in competition. NHB or whatever. However, you nor Sun is Joel and it does not reflect on anyone but him. This is not a measure of a style or a teacher. This is only a venue for an individual to test themselves and their knowledge. There are many.

Su Yu Chang used to fight anyone or anytime. The fighters he trains also do well in world class events. He does not charge alot either. There are no hidden fees or extra fees for instructors training or certification or whatever. In fact, most times he teaches us for free when he visits, and the students donate a gift or buy him dinner or something. This is the traditional way. There is seldom talk about lineage or lineage holders, but we all know the background of Adam Hsu, Dr. Su and my teacher. We know what has been passed on to them and where it comes from. My teachers history is well documented in films and books. He never talks about it but than it would not mean anything to us, his students, or how far we take our martial arts.

Which brings me to the point of this post. We have seen Paul Lin's Father and Uncle documented under their Master Wei. Interestingly Pauls father was there last time I saw James Sun back in 1984-85. I know the respect that was shown than. I have not said anything bad about James Sun in this thread or any other. But I have to wonder why he would try so hard to make claims that can't be verified and threaten lawsuits against ones that should be considered his elders? Instead of turning this thread into a "free for all", calling names and challenging everyone to fight your teacher, could you address the 6 points in the original post? I wonder what your teacher would think of offering him to fight anyone?

[Maboroshi]

this is a total ego trip, which I cant really blame anyone for, but it is counterproductive nonetheless...

[grogan]

Originally posted by Stacey
There is also another in SD and another in Iowa that kicked ass in local bar cage events and was approached by a promoter to go pro. He told the guy to shove his contract up his ass because it was pure exploitation...he went to college instead.

bahahahahahahahaha bahahaha ha ha hahahhahaha hahahaha bahahahhaha you should take this stuff on tour babbahahahhaha!

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Stacey
Paul Lin is full of sh*t

he claimed that he would fight Master Shyun and that Shyun was hiding from him. Even when given his address he wouldn't go to back up his claims.


Everyone is invincible from the sidelines.


BTW...what kung fu styles have won in NHB tournaments?

Oh yeah 8 Step Praying Mantis a la Grandmaster James Shyun's students.


How exactly does he overcharge? What does Yang JWang Ming charge for forms? How about Su Yu Tsang and Adam Su? How about others? Its very comparable...and if its more, its worth it.


For those of you who say its a scam, have the balls to back it up with your forms and 2nd rate kickboxing. We don't fall into the kickboxing trap because we know what were doing......think you know better?

Back it up with your fists.

Just for your note, I have recieved a message form my friend/kung fu bro. I wondered how Mr. Joel Sutton would say about this.
[Hi Paul,

I know and am friends with Joel Sutton (the one who fought in UFC-Shyun's old
student)...I trained with him when we both belonged to Shyun's group. He left
Shyun's federation before I did. Joel had to sign an agreement to give all
money he makes from the UFC fights.

Shyun had him make a tape on the ground fighting techniques Joel learned
while training with other UFC fighters. The tape was made with techniques
divided into 8's...8 arm locks, 8 take down's, etc. Shyun showed this tape at
a shifu camp he held in a branch school at West Palm Beach, FL claiming these
were secret 8 Step techniques he showed to Joel before he left the
Federation. I have a copy of this tape, Joel gave me before I even went to
that camp.

When Joel left, Shyun and his students bad-mouthed him saying Joel stoled the
secret ground techniques and took off. They would say that is reason why
Shyun won't teach you everything until he know's he can trust you. Whenever
anyone leaves, they make up stories to discredit you so the other students
aren't wondering why you left.

Hope this info helps,
George]

I have also posted one like this in the Northern Mantis forum, but it was erased. No wondered.
:mad:

[PaulLin]

As of this afternoon, I have found my post in Northern Mantis forum again.

I would also add this to Stacey's challenge, just in response of where he has posted:

If you, Stacey, don't mind to hook it up, I am interesting in an open public tournament only with Shyun, since I have got an issue with him(that is Shyun has to response and announce it in the public, dare he not). And I have no issue with others so far. If he really think he is the real one, and knows many "never-heard-of-materials-that-better-than-the-traditional" why not prove it?

Tell you one more thing. In 8-step mantis, more doesn't not mean better. In fact, more means unwise. Do you even know what the main body of 8-step form--Zhai-Yao-- means? It means the condensed forms of the only importances. Go research more and then think about it. I could have creates 10 times more better quality forms then Shyun form what I know. But more don't mean better, it means the opposite. It means the one who favorite more don't really understand the most important things.

There are many other mantis styles out there. They have their forms and techniques links to the 8-step. You can trace them like relatives lines. The extra stuff forms Shyun, could they be traced? Or they have nothing to do with other style of mantis? Or they have to claim under Shuai Chaio? Even without the proper foundation support of the Shuai Chaio moves?

Don't think any one would be fallen for this. I certainly won’t buy it. Especially I known Shyun's past. When you have lived 5 min. walking distance form him, you sure know his family well.

If you really want to see the backing up with fist, I would love to see that more than you, but you are not making it openly and formally, that is not worthy to play a private game like you can come up with.

[PaulLin]

It took too long for some simple answers which should have been known before I even asked.

[HuangKaiVun]

Checkmate.

Nice job, PaulLin.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Checkmate.

Nice job, PaulLin.

Thanks, but I am really terrible with chess:D

[phantom]

Paul Lin, I think it would not be fair of you to refuse to teach someone who had studied Master Shyun's system. What if someone who studied his style saw the light, realized that his style was not the real deal, and then came to study your style?Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Sifu George Lisjack study Master Shyun's style for quite some time before he studied with you? You do not seem to have any problem with teaching him your style. It is very hard for the average joe off of the street to know for sure who is legit and who is not. I am not sure who teaches the real eight step style, mind you, I am just giving you the benefit of the doubt here. It seems to me that both versions of eight step have been taught for quite some time, which makes it hard to decide who is teaching the real deal. Peace.:D

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by phantom
Paul Lin, I think it would not be fair of you to refuse to teach someone who had studied Master Shyun's system. What if someone who studied his style saw the light, realized that his style was not the real deal, and then came to study your style?Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Sifu George Lisjack study Master Shyun's style for quite some time before he studied with you? You do not seem to have any problem with teaching him your style. It is very hard for the average joe off of the street to know for sure who is legit and who is not. I am not sure who teaches the real eight step style, mind you, I am just giving you the benefit of the doubt here. It seems to me that both versions of eight step have been taught for quite some time, which makes it hard to decide who is teaching the real deal. Peace.:D

Both styles has been taught for quite some time.......hum....But we never change our forms, while Shyun's forms has been changed many times when he found out his old invention is not good enough.

I don't know who give you the idea that I refuse to teach any one who learned form Shyun before, I certainly never say such. Where the hack did you got that impression? I will only see each person as individual cases. Their past is only part of consideration, not the main determination. George now is study with Sifu Ilya now since he can't be here in CA with us.

One basic way I can tell you, and every one who read me, how to tell who are real who are fake. You must first have good Qi yourself to do this. By practicing Zhan Zhong (standing Qi kung), until you can feel your Qi process cycle (how your energy turn into matters and matters turn into energy), don't have to match exactly the nature's cycle, just good enough to relate to it. The use the same relating to relate to the person you want to find out if he/she has good CMA. The Qi will tell you how the person is. That technique has never fail me, and I am happy to share it.

It will be very hard for an average Joe to see the true face of the fakes. That is why I am thinking that the shifu should provide a background check, many fake people has their records in some where that tells you if they have fraud history. Just like how bank decided who they will lend/loan money to.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Le nOObi
Does anyone have any information on the " International Full Contact Martial Arts Championships" That shyun competed and won in?

I will bet you that no one can come up with any tracible info. on Shyun.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Maboroshi
this is a total ego trip, which I cant really blame anyone for, but it is counterproductive nonetheless...

Don't mistaking exporing the truth with ego trip. This is the advantage of modern technology can do with communication, put all things under the sun light, no hidden games or mysteries.