Lam Sai Wing Books

[ngokfei]

1st am in the process of having published various MA books from Chinese to English.

To get an idea of interest. How many here would buy LSW's Hung Gar books?

Also some one is sending me this 4th book on Training Theories an apparatus. I don't think it is by LSW anybody know who did it?

Any other ideas for publishing?

eric Hargrove
ngokfei@juno.com

[MaFuYee]

lies! lies!! all lies!!!

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
-- Albert Einstein

[Lilian Wong]

The books of LSW already have been published in English www.quandoman.com (http://www.quandoman.com)
This person has permission of the Lam family.

[ngokfei]

The more the better.

1. Have checked and the books are in the free domain and are not controled by the Lam family.

2. His books claim to be interpretations. These will be direct translations. Nothing added nothing deleted

3. Also mine will be quite alot cheaper. All volumes will be combined into one at only $35. Quite a savings.

:D

eric Hargrove
ngokfei@juno.com

[PlasticSquirrel]

if i practiced hung gar, i'd definitely, definitely buy it.

other good candidates might be sun lutang's books, books on taijiquan, and on baguazhang. baguazhang is in need of books as a whole, and taijiquan is in need of good books. not to mention that both have a good following, and that serious practitioners would definitely get a translated book by a reputable master.

[MasterPhil]

Sounds like a good plan.

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

[Kung Lek]

Sounds like a good idea and I am sure that practitioners and those who are just curious would buy the books.

But, as has been said, the Lam Sai Wing books are already available in english.

peace

Kung Lek

[ngokfei]

No plans to go into the internal styles as there have been many books translated already by good translators.

Books on our calendar include:

Lam Sai Wing's 3 books
Lau Fat Mang's 3 books (not really by him)
Chan Tzi Ching's 2 books
Wong Hon Fun's Book Series (except the weapons, don't have those)
Gao's Sifu book on Eagle Claw
Liu Sifu's bok on Fan Tzi Chuan
Ma Ying Tu's book on Pi Qua
Zhu Sifu's book on Chuo Jiao
Chan Sau Chung's 3 books on Tai Sing Pek Gwa

thats all right now but we have man others but unsure of the demand

eric Hargrove
ngokfei@juno.com

[MasterPhil]

You said: "[I] am in the process of having published..." -- How far along the process are you?

[Paul Skrypichayko]

Just for your info, the Lam Sai Wing books actually aren't by him either. They're by his student, Jee Yu Jai.

I think it's a good idea to translate more old books. Most of the translations out there aren't very accurate. Do you have inside info on the metaphoric/symbolic meaning of certain words and phrases unique to hung gar?

[sifuchuck]

If the Lam Sai Wing books are in the public domain, then why not just publish the translations on the web for free? There is no reason why any more bound books need to be produced when the electronic media is available. What's the actual cost of translating the three books? Divey the cost between some Hung Gar brothers and publish for free. I'll chip in.
chuck

[ngokfei]

All the books mentioned are almost ready for the printer. Self-published as I haven't been able to find a good publisher and still make a good profit. It costs alot to hire people to translate and then have those translations gone over by actual CMA. Good thing most of them are my friends who enjoy CMA enough to wait until they are printed and sold before being paid.

FREE??? Why. Alot of hard work. Nothing in this world is free except dying and even then cost your family $5,ooo for funeral costs.

:rolleyes:

eric Hargrove
ngokfei@juno.com

[Lilian Wong]

The Lam Sai Wing books are copyrighted.
NR. 235-904-13788 Hong Kong Patent Office.
So you need permission.

[L D S]

Wondering: Does a Chinese/Hong Kong patent have any legalitty in the western countries?
Does a translation also follow under the rules of this patent.

Even reprints of the original books are sold via the internet.
web page (http://www.tcp.com/%7Emint/catalog.html)

Ling

[MasterPhil]

Ling - Copyrights and patents are slightly different. Patents are only good in the country of filing unless filed through WIPO in which case it is valid for all the countries listed in the application. I'm not sure how copyrights work though, ie if it is international or not. I assume translations would fall under the same copyright protection but I'm not sure of that either.

NgokFei - I was asking to see how serious you were about your project. Many people don't understand the difference between a "dream" and a "goal". I would be interested as 35$ is very reasonable considering the work involved. Let me know when they're done, my email is in my profile.

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

[sifuchuck]

Oh... You want to make a profit! :rolleyes:

Well, ok. But how much does it cost you--a lot you say? How much is that in US Dollars? I'd like to get someone to translate some stuff for me--what's the going rate in NYORK?

And could you settle this on-going discussion about whether it's legal or moral to offer this for sale under current copyright/patent laws as pertains to this particular situation? I'd like to know.
thanks,
chuck

[MasterPhil]

I assume you were adressing your questions to ngokfei but since you didn't specify...

"You want to make a profit!" -- At 35$ it is not the big corporate profits he is after but more (correct me if wrong) a justified reward for his work/time and his associates' work.

"I'd like to get someone to translate some stuff for me--what's the going rate in NYORK?" -- Translators, like any other professional, have varying rates depending on their experience, quality, type of translation to be done, region you work in, etc. Look in your local yellow pages, call a couple translation agencies and see for yourself. Your info will be much more reliable this way.

"could you settle this on-going discussion about whether it's legal or moral to offer this for sale under current copyright/patent laws"

1) Legality and morality are 2 very different subjects not to be confused and mixed.
2) Copyrights and patents are different but they are both legal matters. To give any kind of legal advice/opinion at this point would be foolish since we do not possess all the facts. In one sentence: It's more complicated than it looks ;)

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

[sifuchuck]

Well, actually I was speaking to Ngokfei--hence the direct questions. I'm still interested in the NYORK rates for translations--he can always email them to me in private--so as not to let on to the world--I'll keep it all hush-hush--now this was directed to ST--but Ngokfei can answer--

As to my comment about profit--again it was for Ngokfei--but to answer ST--gawd this is getting confusing--I don't think I said anything about corporate profits. My eye--rolling was in response to Ngokfei's eye-rolling to me--he is a stranger to the concept of "free" stuff. I only mentioned it because I don't make profit from anything that has to do with Hung Gar and I sometimes forget that some people do. Not a judgement--just an observation.

Lastly--you said "we" don't have information about the legality/moral issue that is being discussed on this topic--Are you two guys working together? At any rate, I would think that anyone who has already gone through the expense and time to have three books translated and interpreted would have completely researched the legal/moral situation. That's why I asked him.

All this garbage I just spilled out is just to explain my previous post--I hope I was more clear this time. I really would rather hear Ngokfei answer the questions--than have others comment on the structure and content of the post. No malice here--As Joe Friday would say, "I just want the facts, Maam."

chuck

[ngokfei]

This copyright must be newly filed. I have original copies of the 3 books from the original publisher. They are now defunct. Also I have copies from numeorus publishers in different countries. Like to see this copyright enforced. Also remember that HK is now back under China. Nobody pays attention to China's Copyrights as they have infringed on other countries copyrights excessively. DVDs CD's, Software, Books you name it they've stolen it. My personal CD collection is more than 1/2 pirated copies made in China.

Translators usually charge $20 per document page. Try the UN or language department of a university. Only luck and connections will lead you to a Translator who is also a Martial ARtist.

Money. That's the name of the game. Got to find some way to replenish all that I've spent in the name of Martial ARTs.

eric Hargrove
ngokfei@juno.com

[sifuchuck]

Thanks, Eric.

Good luck in your endeavors.
chuck

[MasterPhil]

Ngok Fei: "All the books mentioned are almost ready for the printer." Aug.22nd

So how is your project coming along? I sent you an email but you haven't responded.

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

[yik-wah-tik]

can someone answer if lam sai wing originally learned choy lee fut before learning hung ga?

i was told by a hung ga stylist last night from l.a. that lam sai wing did learn clf before hung ga.

frank :p

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[Kung Lek]

The Butcher of Canton studying Choy Li Fut???

I've never heard that. Course, I've never heard a lot of things and quite a few things I've heard I heard wrong :D

peace

Kung Lek

[yik-wah-tik]

yeah,

i heard that he learned clf before going on to hung ga? usually it is the other way around.

but maybe it's worth checking out?


frank

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[Kung Lek]

well, his life as a kung fu man is fairly well documented. he even wrote a few books on the style of Hung Gar with dissertations on a few of the sets.

you may find some answers via wle.com.

say, have you ever heard of Leo Fong?

peace

Kung Lek

[yik-wah-tik]

yes,

i have heard of leo fong, he was a short time student of professor lau bun of our hung sing kwoon.

i know he has a book out on our cheung kuen. but it looks nothing like the we do it. it did actually have a lot of karate appeal to it.

if i tried to follow his set from the book i would be lost, but i would not like to disrepect my si bak.

frank

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[One Finger Zen]

I practice Hung Kuen or Hoong Jia Boxing, I am very interested in purchasing a Lam Sai Wing training manual for historys sake.

I was wondering whether or not any of you may be able to tell me where I could buy this, if possible. Specifically, I would like to purchase the Tiger and Crane double appearance set or Fu-Hok Seung Ying Kuen manual.

All help and advice on this topic would be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards,

OFZ

[hungsingclf]

check out sifu donald hamby's website, i think it is kwandoman.com (sp)? i think he has what your looking for.

[One Finger Zen]

thanks, I'm just about to check it

[One Finger Zen]

..but it doesn't work, probably the spelling. D'oh.

Thanks anyway

[Nevermind]

Try quandoman.com. I think he spells it this way. Hope this helps!

[hasayfu]

You can always purchase it here:
http://www.wle.com//products/b078.html

That would be the original Chinese version written by Chu Yu Tsai.

Don Hamby's version is an English Translation of the later chinese version written by Leung Daat (circa late 1990s) Still a nice thing to have in your collection.

[MonkeyBoy]

eBay

[One Finger Zen]

I'd just like to thank all of the people that replied to me and gave me links. Many thanks.

WLE is in USA so I have to pay 4 times as much to buy the manual (it'd only usually cost me £6 here in the UK, but with shipping being $35 (!!), it'd rake the cost up to £24, which is a bit steep).

I might check eBay, MonkeyBoy. Cheers.

Thanks again everyone, peace.

OFZ

[phoenix-eye]

Hi mate

Where do you practice Hung Gar in Uk?

PM me your e-mail address and I might be able to help you with finding a manual in the UK.

PE

[mok]

Or if you want english translations including the full notes from Lam Sai Wing (transalted by Alexander Popov) - you can get them as ebooks from kungfulibrary.com:

http://www.kungfulibrary.com/hunggar.htm

NB: they can be bit hard to follow (translation not so easy to read) but are the closest english versions to the "canonical" books

[One Finger Zen]

Thanks Mok, I'm a regular visitor to that site and my kungfu brother has bought a Tid Sien Kuen e-book from there.

Its a good site.

P.s. Phoenix eye, did you get my PM?

If so, reply.

Stay cool people

OFZ

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anyone know where I can get my hands on the Lam Sai Wing books with PHOTOS, not illustrations?

Thanks

[PM]

well...

- FHSYK, only one photo i know of survived WWII

- TSK - i have seen dozen of photos, and a complete old book with photos in 1999 in Hongkong, owned by some elderly gentleman. never see it since

- GJFFK - Alexander Tse sifu is selling a photocopy of his original copy -http://www.stmkfa.co.uk/styles/master-alexander-tse-wing-ming/

[Golden Arms]

I have a copy of the GGFFK book with photos, but I am not allowed to distribute it. I know that my former Hung Sifu had one of FHSYK with photos as well as notes from our Sigung in it. He loaned it to a friend 25 years ago or so and never was able to recover it from what I was told.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have all the ones with drawings but I love the photos.
I think the photos just make historical significance of it that much more amazing.
To me it has nothing to do with technique, just the historical value of it.

[David Jamieson]

You ever check out the book stores at Pacific Mall or downtown SR? It's hit and miss, but you never know. If there was a published book, it might still be out there.

[GeneChing]

Hong Kong martial arts grandmaster Lam Sai-wing brought to life in 3D exhibition (http://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/article/2109818/hong-kong-martial-arts-grandmaster-lam-sai-wing-brought-life-3d-exhibition)
Hung kuen-style kung fu master Lam was photographed showing his moves in the 1920s. Motion-capture footage of his descendants practising hung kuen was analysed and combined, resulting in a 3D animation of Lam in action
PUBLISHED : Tuesday, 05 September, 2017, 6:18pm
UPDATED : Wednesday, 06 September, 2017, 9:07pm

https://cdn3.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/980x551/public/images/methode/2017/09/05/de8758e2-91f7-11e7-b116-f4507ff9df92_1280x720_184230.JPG?itok=F8QsHPr_

Rachel Cheung

Fascinated by photography, Lam Sai-wing, a grandmaster of an important kung fu system known as hung kuen, was so drawn by the technology that he showed his moves in front of the camera, capturing each step in photos. That was in the 1920s, and little did he know, the pictures will enable future generations to bring his art back to life almost a century later.

https://cdn3.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/images/methode/2017/09/05/ddcc0fd8-91f7-11e7-b116-f4507ff9df92_972x_184230.JPG
Lam Sai-wing in a photo taken in the 1920s.

A realistic animation of Lam’s Iron Wire Boxing is one of the highlights in the exhibition Lingnan Hung Kuen Across the Century: Kung Fu Narratives in Hong Kong Cinema and Community, which opens at the Hong Kong Visual Arts Centre on September 6.
The team – International Guoshu Association (IGA) working with City University of Hong Kong – built a 3D model of Lam with his photos and captured the core motion data by having master Oscar Lam, the fourth generation carrier of the Lam family hung kuen style, demonstrate in a studio. The data was then mapped onto the model. But the story doesn’t end there.

https://cdn1.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/images/methode/2017/09/05/dd7a736c-91f7-11e7-b116-f4507ff9df92_1320x770_184230.JPG
3D models of Lam.

“There are nuances or characteristics of each performer. Oscar’s performance is certainly his own and cannot be used to directly represent Lam Sai-wing,” says Hing Chao, curator of the exhibition and executive director of IGA.

https://cdn3.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/images/methode/2017/09/05/dcd770cc-91f7-11e7-b116-f4507ff9df92_1320x770_184230.JPG
Lam Chun-fai demonstrates hung kuen.

To present an animation that is closest to Lam’s rendition of Iron Wire Boxing, the team compared the motion capture data with performances by Oscar Lam Chuen-ho’s father Lam Chun-fai, historic photos of Lam Sai-wing and extrapolation of Lam’s teachings. The entire process took six months.
“We do it because we can,” says Jeffrey Shaw, director of the Centre for Applied Computing and Interactive Media at the City University, where the motion capture studio is located. “It’s a way of bringing the past into the present and making it more seductive to a contemporary audience.”
The exhibition, a programme in this year’s Hong Kong Culture Festival, focuses on two influential families that were practitioners of Hung Kuen. “Hung Kuen played a very prominent role in modernisation of southern Chinese martial arts and had a great impact on the development of kung fu in Hong Kong both before and after the war,” says Chao, adding it is very rare for a kung fu style to have more than 100 years of history in the city.

https://cdn3.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/images/methode/2017/09/05/de13b77a-91f7-11e7-b116-f4507ff9df92_972x_184230.JPG
A full-colour 3D rendering of Lam Sai-wing.

Lam Sai-wing was a butcher as well as a student of the legendary Chinese martial artist Wong Fei-hung. He has been instrumental in constructing hung kuen as we know it today. While we may think of hung kuen as only one kung fu style, it is a hybrid system that encompasses various southern Chinese martial arts.
Lam also contributed to the modernisation of the traditional art. “This is seen in his efforts to construct Nam Mou Athletic Association, which was the first athletic association in Hong Kong that took on board a lot of those Western sports education concepts, but focused on the heritage and practice of traditional southern Chinese martial arts,” says Chao.

https://cdn1.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/images/methode/2017/09/05/f7d3bcbe-91f7-11e7-b116-f4507ff9df92_1320x770_184230.JPG
A still from Lau Kar-leung’s Challenge of the Masters.

The other martial arts family featured in the exhibition is that of Liu Zhan. Liu’s son is late film director Lau Kar-leung, who worked in the 1970s and ’80s for the Shaw Brothers Studio, first as an action choreographer before directing his own films. Selected scenes from his classics, such as The 36th Chamber of Shaolin and Martial Club, have been adapted into 3D and will be shown at the exhibition.

Lingnan Hung Kuen Across the Century: Kung Fu Narratives in Hong Kong Cinema and Community, Exhibition Hall, 5/F, Hong Kong Visual Arts Centre, 7 Kennedy Rd, Mid-Levels.
Sept 6 to 25, 10am – 9pm, closed on Tuesdays. Free admission.

This article appeared in the South China Morning Post print edition as:
Kung fu master brought to life in 3D motion capture

Lam Sai Wing (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?1524-Lam-Sai-Wing-Books) meets the Hong Kong Martial Arts Living Archive (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?69951-Hong-Kong-Martial-Arts-Living-Archive)

Too cool. I would love to see this.

[GeneChing]

Scientific process inspires UChicago art/science lab, whose latest play entangles quantum concepts and kung fu (https://news.uchicago.edu/story/scientific-process-inspires-uchicago-artscience-lab-whose-latest-play-entangles-quantum)

https://cdn.news.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/styles/full_width/public/images/2019-12/kungfu2.jpg?itok=SVIvFUyA
STAGE Lab members (from left) Collin Van Son, Sunanda Prabhu-Gaunkar, Ellen Wiese, Madeleine Kerr and Edison Hong take a class with kung fu Master Oscar Lam (right) as part of a workshop in Hong Kong.

Photo by Willy Tang

By Louise Lerner
Dec 12, 2019

Scholars and students use technology to create new stories for the theater

Scientists stage experiments all the time—but only a few stage plays. But at the University of Chicago, an innovative art/science lab embedded in its Pritzker School of Molecular Engineering has found inspiration in a unique place: the scientific process.

“We use research, brainstorming and improvisation to generate and investigate new ideas, with continuous analysis and feedback,” said Prof. Nancy Kawalek, the director, actor and writer who heads STAGE (Scientists, Technologists and Artists Generating Exploration).

But these are not science lectures disguised as plays, she said: “By creating emotionally engaging stories, we get the public interested in and excited about science.”

STAGE is based at the PME, the first school in the nation dedicated to defining molecular engineering—an emerging field that builds on advances in basic science to design technology from the molecular level up. In turn, Kawalek works with scholars, students, scientists and artists from across the University, as well as externally, to also use technology as an integral part of staging stories about science.

The STAGE lab group is comprised of scientists and artists who collaboratively develop new theater work through a unique process of improvisation and iteration. Each theater project centers on a scientific concept, which is integrated over months of rehearsals into a story that has an emotional parallel to the scientific topic. For example, the lab’s latest project melds quantum entanglement and kung fu.

https://cdn.news.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/styles/full_width/public/images/2019-12/provenance_bts2.jpg?itok=reGjN8If
A STAGE Lab brainstorming session on the use of technology to tell a story.
Photo courtesy STAGE Lab

The project was inspired when Kawalek became aware of a museum exhibit that used motion capture and other technology to map a young kung fu master’s moves onto a lifelike avatar of his long-deceased great-grandfather, the revered Master Lam Sai Wing.

“In this way, the singular style of kung fu originated by Lam Sai Wing, and in some sense the master himself, were brought back to life on film,” Kawalek said. “Though still in the very early stages, Entanglement is evolving into a play about science, technology, memory and heritage. Quantum entanglement takes us into the remarkable future of technology, while the intangible cultural heritage of kung fu offers inextricable links to the past.”

Kawalek was fascinated by the museum exhibit, especially after learning that the words “kung fu” carry, among other things, the connotation of energy and time. Additional links emerged through discussions with Tian Zhong, a PME assistant professor and STAGE collaborator, who has been doing research on a quantum phenomenon called time-energy entanglement.

Zhong said the exhibit is a powerful demonstration of the type of connections STAGE wants to draw. “The avatar represents a collapsing of time, spanning two generations through movement. This is exactly the essence of time-energy entanglement, so we thought this was a perfect way to inform an audience about the concepts of quantum physics,” he said.

This past summer, the STAGE group worked with The Hong Kong Jockey Club University of Chicago Academic Complex | The University of Chicago Francis and Rose Yuen Campus in Hong Kong, traveling to Hong Kong to research kung fu and quantum science. Students and faculty met with Master Oscar Lam, Lam Sai Wing’s great-grandson; Hing Chao, a leading advocate for the preservation of Chinese martial arts; and the museum exhibit’s artist, Prof. Jeffrey Shaw, a distinguished media artist at the City University of Hong Kong.

Throughout the Hong Kong workshop, research, kung fu lessons, and brainstorming and motion capture sessions provided compelling material for developing Entanglement, Kawalek said. For example, Zhong and the STAGE group had a fruitful discussion with Chao about the role of energy in martial arts. When Zhong raised questions about scientific concepts like conservation, Chao offered an impromptu demonstration of forces specific to different martial arts, such as the linear punches of boxing, versus the arcing shapes of many methods of attack in other types of Chinese martial arts.

https://cdn.news.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/styles/full_width/public/images/2019-12/provenance_production_still_1.jpg?itok=h9dngGa8
A scene from the workshop production of a previous STAGE play, "The Art of Questionable Provenance."
Photo by HMS Media

As the play develops, Zhong said, he hopes it will increase public awareness and knowledge about quantum science, especially among younger generations. “Some of the concepts in quantum physics are very counterintuitive, and it’s a struggle to relate them to our everyday experiences,” he said. “But I believe earlier and greater exposure to ‘bizarre’ concepts such as these will generate many more innovative ideas down the road.”

STAGE continues to investigate the ideas discovered during their Hong Kong research trip, and Kawalek said the lab hopes to present a workshop production in 2020.

As with all STAGE lab projects, Kawalek said, the goal of Entanglement is to excite the public about science and technology through theater that is relevant to our lives, which are influenced by technological and scientific advances at every turn.

“These connections between science and art—at some level, they’re about the same thing,” Zhong said. “Both start with asking intriguing questions. Then you use existing knowledge to inquire and explore, and the outcome is creation—new knowledge or new art. It’s just the toolsets that are different.”

THREADS
Lam Sai Wing (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?1524-Lam-Sai-Wing-Books)
Hong Kong Martial Arts Living Archive (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?69951-Hong-Kong-Martial-Arts-Living-Archive)
Martial Arts in Live Theater (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?49689-Martial-Arts-in-Live-Theater)