Beginner needs help [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

GreyMystik

08-08-2002, 09:19 AM

i agree with joe, your sifu by far will be your best learning source, but if it's history and other info you're looking for, it's probably not a bad idea to read up on some things...

while i can't recommend any specific books at this time, there are plenty of good websites that you can learn information from about Hung Gar. keep in mind alot of this stuff will be general info but nonetheless much of it is useful and interesting.

http://www.hungga.net

http://home.earthlink.net/~chiuchiling/

http://www.hungkuen.net/

http://www.geocities.com/hkhunggar/

http://www.yeeshungga.com/

another good forum that you may want to consider posting on is
http://www.forumco.com/hungkuennet/

good luck and train hard!

tomcat

08-08-2002, 08:37 PM

Hi Jables,
You should ask your Sifu,what he recomends,as some lineages of Hung-Gar tend disagree.
I have found a good book on history,lineages,legends ,etc. It's title isTraditional Hung Gar Kung fu, by Sifu Jamal Al Bakkar. It's kind of pricy 75.00 +3.00 shipping the address is P.O box188854 ,Raleigh,N.C,27619 .
Or If you have started Gung-Gee (some schools teach it 1st) you might check out the book by Lam Sai Wing, but be sure to get a translation with it, Check out web at www.Quandaoman.com ? not sure about the spelling on that one .
Good luck with your training! P.S Quandaoman may also carry the book by Jamal.
Later,Tomcat

Jables

08-12-2002, 07:46 AM

Thanks all for your input. I greatly appreciate it. And while I have no intention of straying from what sifu is teaching. I did want to have something that might clarify what he is saying.

Ego_Extrodinaire

08-12-2002, 08:42 AM

Jable,

Good that you are enjoying Hung Gar. It is a beginner kung fu as it teaches you the basics of kick and punch. Don't stay for too long as northern styles will help you advance to higher levels which hung gar will not.

GreyMystik

08-14-2002, 01:38 PM

with a name like " Ego_Extrodinaire" you know you can listen to what THIS guy says... :rolleyes:

Flattop Monk

08-15-2002, 12:15 PM

Hello Jables:

Bucksam Kong and Johnny Leong wrote Hung Gar Books. I would recommend spending your money on videos instead of books because Hung Gar forms are notoriously long. The first form usually taught- Gung Gee Fook Fu- (hope I spelled it right in english), is such a long form, and remembering it is not easy. Ditto for the Tiger and Crane form. (Both are awesome). A good video of the form you are learning can help you memorize the pattern. Perfecting the moves is another story. You can pick up a lot of Hung Gar forms on video from wle.com.

If you never saw "Master Killer" starring Gordon Liu, see it. It is about the Monk who taught Hung See Gwan.

Welcome to the Hung System!!

TenTigers

08-15-2002, 05:21 PM

wouldn't it be great if Ego actually learned Hung-Ga? I think I'm gonna start posting trash about Liu Ho Pa Fa. I can also be an authority as I've never even seen it.

Flattop Monk

08-16-2002, 07:53 AM

You got that right, TenTigers!! Iron Wire is about as high a level you can go. Besides Ego, I would much rather be able to knock someone flying than advance to "higher levels". By the way, how did you do in the 45 minute horse stance?

Ego_Extrodinaire

08-18-2002, 07:10 AM

What a waste of time, holding a horse stance for 45 mins. in the old days, it was a form of punishment for coming late to class.

Back in the days when I trained, we aspire to great hights. the best kick is the tornnado kick which can knock down masses of advancing opponents.

A Hung Gar practitioner would just sit there and take the punches. like i said hund gar is beginner kung fu that leads on to becoming wu shu.

GOLDEN ARMOR

08-19-2002, 07:05 AM

Ego,

If you think holding the horse is a waste of time than your a fool & u don't know sh!t about Hung Gar & other styles. You think that they don't make u hold your stances in your great northern styles, think again!

:rolleyes:

Flattop Monk

08-19-2002, 11:13 AM

Ego:

The prolonged stance training is about leg strength- among a lot of other things. Use some common sense. We have 10 years of NHB fighting that proves guys who do flying kicks against a strong warrior either get knocked silly or get grounded and pounded.

There is other torture besides stance training.

It might seem silly to do fist or fingertip pushups untill most of the class is falling on their faces, or to do about 50 leg raises, then hold your feet 6 inches off the floor while the instructor jumps up and down on your stomach. But the idea is to be able to generate power, to have a strong body that can both inflict and take punishment. I have never knocked any style of fighting on this or any forum, but I am a man, not a ballet dancing b*tch. I prefer to kick low rather than high, hit hard, and slam hard. That is much more important than looking pretty doing useless flips, or high kicks that any capable fighter can grab you in mid-air and slam your head against the floor.

HuangKaiVun

08-19-2002, 12:30 PM

Does anybody here other than myself want to fight Ego using Hung Gar?

Litigation aside (which is the ONLY thing that would save his sorry nonkungfu hide), kung fu needs to be put to the test.

I'd love to see what would happen if I put my EXTREMELY limited grasp of Hung Gar against Ego's voluminous kung fu self-styling. My money's on ME.

You want to talk the talk Ego, go ahead. I would love to see if you're as tough as you say you are.

Jables, I'd recommend Kwong Wing Lam's videos.

They allow you to see the stuff you're working on and allow you to get the order of the sets reasonably correct.

Also, check out Lam Tsai Wing's books and posters. Interesting stuff there. I'll also suggest Frank Yee's "Tang Fung" Hung Ga, of which TenTigers is a master of.

My advice for anybody studying any style is to PUT IT TO THE TEST. Get in a ring, try to USE your moves. See what works and what doesn't.

In my admittedly limited Hung Ga experience, Hung Ga's "Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen" form has just about everything a person could need to survive a standup fighting encounter. When I use it, my Hung Kuen doesn't look exactly like the sets but uses the ideas and concepts.

Flattop Monk

08-20-2002, 02:21 PM

HKV, I'd bet the family farm, the family jewels, and the whole FN family you would win that one. You are right on the money.

Personally, I really would not want to fight the guy for one main reason. Never fight anyone you don't plan on hurting. If you are going to fight someone, hurt the guy. Better him than you. Pulling your punches can get you killed. If you never look for trouble, you won't have any moral dilemma when you really have to defend yourself.

If you don't have to, don't fight. A jail sentence is no joke. Neither is some sleazy lawyer trying to get a piece of your paycheck for the next 20 years. I'm not saying you should take insults from anyone, but save the beatings for someone who really deserves it.

I tested my training in the middle of the night on NYC Subways in some pretty sleazy areas of Brooklyn and Queens. I am still here.
I am really not trying to blow my own horn, but getting jumped by thugs is no joke. But there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever about how effective the Hung System is in todays world. It is not for everyone, the training is harder than a lot of other schools, but I could not imagine not doing it.

Gung Gee Fook Fu is my favorite form as well, HKV. It took me over a year and a half to finish that one, and more time after that to polish it. It has more hand techniques than some entire styles. That form, from start to finish, is one hell of a workout. Not to mention a thing of beauty.

Live Strong!!

HuangKaiVun

08-20-2002, 05:40 PM

I'm in 100% agreement with you, Flattop Monk - especially about the beatings.

Then again, we both know that a novice like Ego could easily be defeated without injuring him or ourselves. Against a truly trained kung fu fighter, that wouldn't be the case.

Now I have a question for you. How did you acquire your Hung Ga fighting skill?

I didn't stay long enough at my Hung Ga school to receive more than a few applications and drills, but I spar plenty and am always trying to work new moves. Though Hung Ga isn't my style, I could easily imagine myself taking the form and breaking it down into combat usage (including the applications).

I'd love to compare notes, especially since I'm practicing my own composite method right now and am always looking for ways to get better.

Ego_Extrodinaire

08-21-2002, 04:34 AM

Hung gar is way too slow. a tkd black belt would simply do the ax kick and that will cut through any guarding position. a tornado kick to sweep the face and lower sweep kick to take out the legs

phoenix-eye

08-21-2002, 05:26 AM

Translation of Lam Sai Wings book on Gung Gee Fook Fu is available on www.kungfulibrary.com

Its an e-book in Acrobat format and is sent to you for $20. I got mine no problem.

Its pretty good - apparently tiger-crane set is next for translation.

You couldn't learn the actual form from the book but it does highlight some applications and subtleties of the movements.

Hope this helps

GreyMystik

08-21-2002, 08:15 AM

"Hung gar is way too slow."

ok ego, where does this idea come from? what exactly is "slow" about hung gar? i'd love to know where you came up with these "factual" statements. :rolleyes:

HuangKaiVun

08-21-2002, 10:15 AM

Better yet, let's put it to the test.

Let's see how Ego's TKD kicks do against my Hung Ga.

I want to see if his kicks can catch (or even dent) my side horse stance Hung Ga shuffles.

iron man

08-21-2002, 03:30 PM

i dont agree with ego but i use to take tkd and i dont know if i was lucky or something but my school was really good. It was ITF style and one night i got into a fight with some big guy and i kicked him in the side of the head and he dropped so fast. Im not saying that high kicks are the best in anyway i use low kicks way more but at the time a high kick seemed like the right tool for the job:cool:

HuangKaiVun

08-21-2002, 04:28 PM

Don't get me wrong - Tae Kwon Do is a great fighting style. I've fought with AND against it.

However, I have no faith in EGO'S Tae Kwon Do because of the amount of style bashing he does. Just because Tae Kwon Do and Hung Ga are great styles doesn't mean that learning them automatically confers combat proficiency on its practitioners.

If Ego sparred a true Hung Ga stylist, his eyes would be opened up to the possibilities of that very tough style.

Flattop Monk

08-22-2002, 10:58 AM

Ego:

The name of this forum is Southern Chinese Kung Fu. Instead of blowing wind on this forum, go to the Northen Forum and talk your sh*t there. We don't go to other forums and criticize styles we don't train in. I doubt you could last through the pushups alone in any class I took.

HuangKaiVun:

Thanks for asking. I am definitely not a master by any means. I did train for about 4 years under Sifu Wai Hong in NYC. He is the Grand Master of Fu-Jow Pai, a very closely related style. He is also highly ranked in several other styles, Hung Gar, Choy Lee Fut, and Mi Chung I. I learned Fook Fu, Fu Hok, a couple of Choy Lee Fut forms, and most of Tiger Claw one. I have not trained in the style for several years, I'm currently in physical therapy for an arm injury I suffered lifting weights, but I will start training as soon as the Doc gives me the go ahead. I did spend a lot of time on Iron hand training, and in my opinion, hitting hard is the whole idea of any style.

I assume you study the Tang Fung branch, they spell it Hung Ga instead of Hung Gar. I did see Master Frank Yee and his students giving a demonstration. It was good stuff. You seem really enthusiastic. My guess is that you are well on your way to good things in the system.

Best of Luck to you.

Jables

08-23-2002, 06:53 AM

Wow! I didn't intend to start a debate. Thanks to all who gave me very good ideas on where to look for more info on my style.

Don't stay for too long as northern styles will help you advance to higher levels which hung gar will not.

I think I will stay for now in Hung Gar. It seems to be very effective for what I want to do. Northern styles take a lot of hard work as well. But for now, I like what Sifu says, "Feet are for standing." :D

Hung gar is way too slow. a tkd black belt would simply do the ax kick and that will cut through any guarding position. a tornado kick to sweep the face and lower sweep kick to take out the legs

My Sifu is one of the fastest men I've ever seen. Of course I doubt he has ever taken TKD, so perhaps you might be right. Of course, he could simply sidestep the axe kick. But that is neither here nor there, as that scenario was simply the silliest scenario I've ever heard of.

Thanks again to all who tried to help without insulting the style.

Helicopter

08-23-2002, 07:26 AM

The Ax kick and and the Tornado kick are the ****est kicks in the universe, Ego_eggs knows this and is just yanking everyone's chain.

Sweeping from horse stance to horse stance (or front stance) is one of the quickest and safest ways to create distance.

HuangKaiVun

08-23-2002, 10:15 AM

So you're Wai Hong's student, Flattop Monk.

Excellent. Given that you didn't mention Tak Wah Eng, I'll figure that you DIDN'T study with him.

Wai Hong has very good kung fu. He's not a guy to be trifled with. I'll guess that your style is in the same mold.

I did do some Frank Yee style Hung Ga, but that's not why I spell it that way.

I simply do that because that's how the Cantonese I know speak of the style to me.

Axe and tornado kicks are hardly "****ey" when used in the right context and by the right person.

I've fought TKD guys who were VERY DANGEROUS with these maneuvers, guys who'd put a hurt on anybody.

TenTigers

08-23-2002, 10:53 AM

Huang,You do me too much honor(I'm embarrassed) I am simply another student, struggling on the path, as we all are. (although , when I take my daughters fishing, I am the one who baits the hooks, and I'm pretty **** good at it. I'd go so far as to say, I'm a master baiter!)-isn't it funny how I wasn't embarrassed to post that horrible joke?

Buby

08-23-2002, 11:02 AM

I'm going to add that to my collection if you mind.:D

Buby

Helicopter

08-24-2002, 01:35 AM

For me these are the most dangerous of the 'real' kicks, dangerous to the person using them that is. Both of them are slow and telegraph what you're gonna do. They can be effective, but I can't think of a situation where something else would be more desirable.

Crimson Phoenix

08-24-2002, 02:55 AM

A little twist on the tornado...
Many people use it against an opponent who stands in front of them. In my school, the tornado is performed to hit an opponent slightly on your side, at a 45° angle...and additionnally, when we perform it, we take a step 45° in the opposite direction (if the guy is 45° on the right, we step 45° on the left, then kick). So we perform this kick after an evade, or even as an evade, depending on the distance we step primarily and the distance of the opponent. It's then also, as you can see, much more used in a multiple opponent scenario than on a 1 on 1.
There are reasons for the 45° angle: 1) it makes it shorter (the rotation is 270°, not 360°) 2) ends up in an angle much less dangerous than if you just did in in front and landed in front and 3) perhaps the most important reason, while performing like this you can slap the opponent with the sole of your shoes without troubles, whereas the angle of your foot exposes you to risks of injuries if you do the front version...
But I also manage to perform a safe and effective tornado during a 1 on 1, I often tried it in savate. The secret here is to prime your tornado with a low roundhouse to the knee, and use the momentum to do the tornado. It works pretty well, and ends up being quite fast...it never really got me in trouble to do it, and ended up being one of my flashy specials LOL
In conclusion, the tornado is a very interesting kick, but there is one golden rule: it's not a standalone kick: it has to be inserted in a flowing combo, whether during evade moves or hits combos (works also great after a priming hook, even if the distance becomes a little trickier in this case).
You just can't stand there then kick tornado out of nowhere if you like life!!

Nevertheless, I agree with you 100% about the axe kick...I hate it...maybe I'd use it against a downed opponent, but I can think of easier and more damaging things to do so why bother? The only case I'd try it is after a missed ramble kick: I do the ramble kick and in case I miss the target on the way up I try to smash it on the way down "à la axe kick" the best I can...but even that is a last ditch effort to avoid getting my butt kicked too hard, not a planned move...

Helicopter

08-25-2002, 03:20 AM

Thanks for the info, that 45 degree stuff seems worth a try, I'll give a go.
And totally agree about the Ax kick, I never Ax kick anything above waistheight.

Crimson Phoenix

08-25-2002, 08:49 AM

Yeah, definitely give it a try...with some combos, add a step, or not, body evade etc...
Mayb you'll end up finding something that suits you...if you don't, well ignore it, there are approximatively 1254862 other kicks to get the job done ;)

Ego_Extrodinaire

08-26-2002, 07:29 AM

Hung Gar is way too stiff because the learning is done through forms. If some one does TKD or kick boxing be will have immense fighting experience. and as crimson pheonix had given you pointers on using the tornado kick at 45 degree angle, a tkd person can easily pull off this move with a jump to set up the position of even execute the kick in the air. The hung gar person will be still rooted in a horse stance will not even see whats coming and be totally screwed. Incidentally the correct translation to this sort of stance and the hung gar way is not rooted but screwed.

Hung gar was never meant for real fighting. it deveoped on the red junks, trained with fake weapons and put up shows for villages. They also do lion dance. Practicing with real weapons on the red junks were too dangerous as a mistake could result in breeching the hull wich could result in drowning all the occupants within.

Prior to being poor sailors in an effort to avoid the imperial army, hung gar practitioners would have been farmers that had their land confiscated. They never fought real soldiers and on the boat they stuck to rivers and esturies never venturing out to sea as they would have been massicared by ruthless priates.

Total hung gar continues to be rooted!

Shaolin Punk

08-26-2002, 08:18 AM

taiji is rooted, too.

Jables

08-26-2002, 11:02 AM

Hung Gar is way too stiff because the learning is done through forms.

Does TKD not have Kata? Or excersises to practice? Or do you simply run around your dojo beating each other senseless with axe and tornado kicks? All MA that I have seen have a way to practice the tecniques one is taught.

Hung gar was never meant for real fighting.

I think Wong Fei Hung and Wong Kei Yin Might say differently (If they were alive). For that matter any Hung Gar practitioner might say differently as well.

Total hung gar continues to be rooted!

But that doesn't mean that it is immobile....

GreyMystik

08-26-2002, 12:04 PM

ego you're so clueless it's ridiculous, there's no point arguing with you. keep on with your delusions. just because hung kuen players train strong stable stances doesn't mean they have to sit in them all the time whilst fighting. :rolleyes:

illusionfist

08-26-2002, 02:41 PM

"Prior to being poor sailors in an effort to avoid the imperial army, hung gar practitioners would have been farmers that had their land confiscated"

Thats why the best sifu within the last five generations have all been famed Dit Dar healers, and quite well off?

"Hung gar was never meant for real fighting"

Thats why Wong Fei Hung fought alongside General Tong Kin Sun during the nationalist uprising? Thats why he was the bodyguard of Sun Yat Sen?

Why move around and waste energy when we can hand your ass to you without moving?

Ego you're a tool.

HuangKaiVun

08-26-2002, 02:56 PM

So Ego, do you think that your TKD can beat Jables' Hung Gar or Illusionfist's or even my own?

Say "yes".

Ego_Extrodinaire

08-28-2002, 07:14 AM

Hung Gar players also put up an animal stance before fighting - such as a tiger, leapord, crane, snake or dragon. A tkd player would simply use the hook kick to break through the bridge and use multiple roundhouse kicks to hit at the exposed face. It works every time because Hung Gar is so dam stiff.

GreyMystik: In your words, it would seem like you don't fight like the way you train. Either your sifu is Phoney or Hung Gar is slow and stiff.

Illusionfist: Wong Fei Hung was a popularized story much like Robin Hood. He was a big guy and made a good bouncer because of his imposing stature. When you're this big, you need not be a good fighter or a person with much brains. He was quite happy to be told to stand over here, move over there, block that doorway, or bring me my slippers. He was well suited for Hung Gar training because of the repetitiveness and simplicity. The only difference was the shape of the hand of a tiger, leapord, crane, snake or dragon. Thta alone would have kept you all amused for hours, but with Wong Fei Hung, he was entertained with this for many many years. Hey look I'm a tiger grrrrrrrrrr, hey look i'm a snake ssssssssssssssst. Prior to learning Hung Gar, he most probably worked on a farm and took the role of an oxen, exploited by the villages. Then a wandering monk took pity on him and introduced 5 animals that were much more interesting to immitate. It challenged Wong mentally at first, but he made a living as a bouncer.

HungGaivun: are you related to HungFeiWong? To take out 3 or more oppoonents trained in hung kuen, all you need is one good tornado kick. It can take down masses of opponents. If they were taller, then you use a jumping reverse tornado kick. If they were faster moving, then you would use a jumping reverse tornado kick done at 45 degrees to where the opponents are standing as crimson phewonix had suggested. If it were against one opponent then the hook kick round house kick combo would do just fine. If it were in close range, best to use the ole right left and hook combo. surprises hung gar players every single time especially if you bob around for a bit and do abit of the ali shuffle. It confuses the hell out of em. truely. If I weren't in a wheel chair none of you would stand a chance one on one or collectively. You'll be facing then ole right left, high kicks and the ali shuffle.

Shaolin Punk

08-28-2002, 07:42 AM

kicking to the face is like punching to the foot.

Jables

08-28-2002, 10:24 AM

Perhaps it is because I'm new to martial arts and new to these forums, but I don't understand how people can come in and completely disrespect a particular style. Especially when their "information" is completely bogus. I've noticed that it takes a lot of work, dedication, and determination to do any Martial Art. To disrespect any of them, to me, is not only an insult to the sifu, sensei, instructors, of these martial arts, but also a slap in the face to the practitioners and students as well.

Ego, continue to underestimate Hung Gar. One day your rude, disrespectful nature will come through when you're around a real Hung Gar practitioner, and quite frankly I hope he(or she) hands you your a$$.

GreyMystik

08-28-2002, 11:25 AM

uhh ok that whole "you fight like you train" thing applies in some instances, and in others it does not. if my training involves my sifu telling me how to do something, and then showing me, it doesn't mean i'm going to get in a fight and start talking to the guy about how to do something. your logic is completely moronic and utterly senseless, just like your assertions that hung gar is slow and stiff. how can a martial art be slow and stiff? use your head genius. PEOPLE are slow and stiff. martial arts are just that... martial arts. at any rate, assuming you are attempting to assert that hung gar stylists are slow and stiff (i'll give you the benefit of the doubt against my better judgement) you still have no basis for your assertion. taiji stylists train slowly when they do their forms, does this necessarily mean they will fight the same way? no. your whole "you fight as you train" commentary does not really apply to what you're attempting to applying it to. oh, and Ego, be careful who you assume my sifu is, you just may run into him someday... or should i say "roll" into him...

Ego_Extrodinaire

08-29-2002, 07:05 AM

Jables: If people feel that they have been disrespected by my comments then so be it. I'm not on this forum to pay my respects to sifus and do ancesterial worship at their shrines. One thing you as a beginner must learn is to seperate the cultural crap from the fighting art. Don't feel you need to respect anyone just because they are called sifu. They are just there to offer a paid service and should you wish - you can tell them off and they can do likewise. there is no skin off anyone's nose. kunfu is nothing more than a physical activity and as far as i'm concerned southern kung fu is a useless physical activity.

Greymystic: so you'll do as sifu tells you to do. Is it because his name is Simon? Some people are slower than others, some cars are slower than others, some styles are slower than others. Hung Gar being slow, tkd being fast. that's just the order of things. Taiji is slow because it is practiced by old people in the park lands of Beijing. Old people cannot move fast. Young people can move faster. That's why you see young people doing BJJ and kick boxing but not old people who do taiji. Young people who move slowly may be stressed out due to marriage problems or difficulties at work. The US economy is not in the best of shape and is putting stress on young people. They may move slowly by doing taiji to relax off. But physically young people can move faster than old people. That again is what god intended. It is again the natural order of things.

GreyMystik

08-29-2002, 07:30 AM

no Ego, it's not because his name is Simon(which, by the way, it's not). it's because he's my sifu! he knows vastly more about this lifelong endeavor i have embarked on than i do. i won't pretend that you should know the "natural order of things" as applied to this point, since you can't comprehend the idea of respect for elders (obviously). even your beloved TKD (from what i understand) espouses this concept.

regarding what is slow, again, your example is of people, not an art. "old people cannot move fast". well, perhaps they cannot move AS fast physically as a young 'whippersnapper', on average, but i would wager that an older sifu (let's say age 50) who is competent can easily move as fast or faster than a young (perhaps age 20) slob. and tehcnically, both can move faster than your wheelchair-bound arse. but that's not really the point is it? the point is, hung gar is a style, it can't reasonably be measured in terms of "fast" or "slow"... the practitioner can be measured as "fast" or "slow" (which is still a relevant term if you want to get technical, as there is no objective measuring standard for "fast" or "slow").

fact of the matter is Ego, your argument is worthless, just admit it and move on. you have no ground to stand...i mean..uh... sit..erm... roll... on.

guohuen

08-29-2002, 10:22 AM

Hung Gar is slow? Maybe in the movies.

Crimson Phoenix

08-29-2002, 02:32 PM

Remember one thing: during a fight being fast or not has nothing to do with raw speed, but with timing. That's how talented people who look slow can hit you in ways you never saw coming, that's how some talented people can seem to always be in the good range while you are always an inch too far.
Speed is about timing, not necessarily moving madly fast.
Speed is also about being able to move without any parasite moves: you just do the move, no signals giving it up, no loss of time.
All these factors are what make a 60 year old master able to beat a 20 year old young bull.

Ego_Extrodinaire

08-30-2002, 06:03 AM

Greymystic: Well obviously those old people who can move fast won't be doing hung gar would they! The point is a 20 year old slob as you so described would be even slower than he was before doing Hung Gar. So the style of one's doing does matter. You don't expect a tortise to move faster on land than a cheeta do you? Just because you can't comprehend such a basic statement doesn't mean you need to victimize me because of my disability given that I'm over 50 yrs old and 200lb you should be giving my great respect.

CrimsonPheonix: Yes that correct, that's why boxers and TKD black belts can beat Hung Gar players.

sbarbe

08-30-2002, 08:17 AM

Why any of you ever dignify Ego's drivel with a response. He is one of the most obvious trolls I have ever seen. He never seems to contribute anything positive to any discussion, and people argue with him all the time. You are forgetting the first rule people:

Trolls die of loneliness.

Don't listen to Ego's crap, and certainly don't take offense from it, just ignore it and wait for him to get bored.

Flattop Monk

08-30-2002, 08:37 AM

Ego, give it up. You are seriously grasping at straws, and don't have a freakin clue!! I studied Tae Kwon Do for a while, no I don't have a black belt in it, but I sparred black belts. Yes they kick high and fast, but it did not help them when I got in close and jammed them every time they tried to kick. I also noticed their shins hurt more than mine. A little something called Iron Broom training, but you wouldn't know about that. I also noticed I hit harder than most of the black belts I sparred. And no, I was not slower than any of them.

I am not knocking TKD, the Grand Master of that dojang is not someone I would want to fight if I didn't have to. But the myth about how invincible guys who can kick really high has been destroyed in UFC 1. Also, guys who can do amazing flying kicks usually can't squat double their body weight. Hung Gar guys almost always have a lot of leg strength. Even though they normally kick low, they kick with POWER. They are not easy to knock off their feet, the average kick boxer or TKD guy usually (but not always) has relatively thin thighs, and can be taken down easier. Taking down someone used to grueling stance training is not easy. Period.

If you are starving for attention, get a life. If you really have a beef w/ this system, find a reputable school, walk in and spit in the Sifu's face. Your opinion will change after he pounds you into a bloody mess.

Please let this thread end!!

Nevermind

09-03-2002, 01:02 PM

Hey, Jables! Welcome! I too, am a newbie to Hung Gar. I will tell you this: It is the most grueling training I have ever endured. After studying both TKD and a little Northern Shaolin, I know that I have finally found my home as far as martial arts are concerned. From what I have seen, and keep in mind I am new to the art, Hung Gar can be both slow and fast, hard and soft. Again this is just the opinion of someone who has only been studying for about 7 months. As for TKD defeating Hung Gar. Well, that all depends on who practices the hardest. All styles have their good points and weaknesses. It all depends on who trains the hardest. Fight the person, not the style. I happen to have a 1st Dan black belt in ITF TKD. Believe me, any black belt with good sense knows that high, flashy kicks are not practical for street combat. Any instructor that preaches that they are does not have his student's best interest in mind. When TKD is taught in the traditional manner, as a martial art and not a sport, it can be a very hardcore and formidable form of self defense. Unfortunately, most schools today promote the sport instead of the art. This is sad because it does harm to the credibility of a wonderful martial art. Nonetheless, I did Kung Fu before TKD and this is where my heart has always been. So I left TKD to pursue my true love which is Kung Fu. Northern, southern, its all good to me. However, I still hate to hear people put down any style. Its all just different paths to the same destination. As for any one who wishes to put down Hung Gar or any other style for that matter. Simply walk into the nearest school and challenge one of the instructors. Good luck.......you will need it! Peace. (o:

Nevermind

09-03-2002, 01:02 PM

Nevermind

09-03-2002, 01:04 PM

Oops! Posted twice. Disregard the second post.

Jables

09-03-2002, 06:32 PM

Thanks for the balanced point of view Nevermind. I can say that I too have been impressed with the rather grueling schedule that my Sifu has my class on. I've never taken any other art (with the exception of a 2 week self defense course at the Y when I was 7) ;) and this has convinced me that I'm in the right place. Good luck with your training!

Nevermind

09-04-2002, 06:54 AM

Its kind of cool, Jables, that you haven't studied anything else. This means that you won't have any habits to break. Because of doing TKD, in the beginning, my Hung sets were pretty choppy. However, now they are beginning to have more of a flow to them. Some of my stance work had to be altered as well but it is all coming together now. Pretty cool. Good luck in your training, brother! (o:

Ego_Extrodinaire

09-04-2002, 07:25 AM

Jables,

Now that you mentioned UFC, I don't think Hung Gar players did well at all. In fact the strikers come from a tkd/kickboxing back ground. Then they studied abit of wrestling or judo. If you want an all round martial arts, do BJJ. don't bother fcuking aroung with Hung Gar. It is proven to be useless in UFC - as you have so used as a measurement benchmark.

It doesn't take a life time to learn hung gar unless you're physically challenged or something. Remeber, Hung Gar is stiff and slow. The horse stance cannot stop someone taking you to the ground. You'll be too slow to move aside from a tornado kick either- which may hurt more than another slap on the face.

guohuen

09-04-2002, 07:50 AM

Apparently someone has yet to see dragon and leopard.

Jables

09-04-2002, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
Jables,

Now that you mentioned UFC, I don't think Hung Gar players did well at all.

I never did mention UFC. Pay attention, next time.

In fact the strikers come from a tkd/kickboxing back ground. Then they studied abit of wrestling or judo. If you want an all round martial arts, do BJJ. don't bother fcuking aroung with Hung Gar. It is proven to be useless in UFC - as you have so used as a measurement benchmark.

And this pertains to my topic how? Not at all. Just clarifying things for you there Ego. I don't care about UFC, it's a worthless display of brawling. Fun to watch, but it's a sport, like TKD. So go play elsewhere, Ego.

I will learn what I choose to learn. Go hijack someone elses topic.

It doesn't take a life time to learn hung gar unless you're physically challenged or something. Remeber, Hung Gar is stiff and slow. The horse stance cannot stop someone taking you to the ground. You'll be too slow to move aside from a tornado kick either- which may hurt more than another slap on the face.

Hung Gar is not stiff or slow. It's actually quite fluid after a fashion. Or it can be. I think I should be able to move out of the way of your precious tornado kick as your telegraphing move will tell me where you are going. But like I said, go elsewhere.

Nevermind

09-04-2002, 08:41 AM

Ummm.......what Hung Gar practitioners were in the UFC? I haven't heard of any. I would be interested in seeing this.

needlefist

09-04-2002, 11:09 AM

I studied Hung-Gar thru the 70's and into the early 80's.
Hung-Gar's 'secret' is in its 'Bo-Faht', not its bridge. I've also used it for real and it saved my life. I taught some HG to a couple of TKD Dan grades from the Singapore B.S.Huan TKD. They said at first, quoting B.S.Huan, that "Kung-Fu is full of wasted movements". Some months later I visted their school and watched them teach HG as 'TKD' to beginners. So much for wasted movements. These TKD Dans had no root, no bridge, couldn't make it work. All BS. Some TKD guys are cool, but they have no real body, no trained strength as we know it in Kung-Fu.
In the end, its not the teacher, its not whats taught, its whats learned that counts.

Jables

09-06-2002, 03:38 PM

What is a 'Bo-Faht'?

needlefist

09-07-2002, 01:37 AM

Bo = Step/footwork

Faht = Law/Method/Way

Ego_Extrodinaire

09-07-2002, 06:06 PM

Jables,

Now that you have responded to my comments on UFC, I have read through your messages and you had indeed not mentioned about UFC.

Rather that taking this as an error on my part, you should address why had you not mentioned this important aspect. It is quite obvious that Hung Gar is no more superior than say Wing Chun, won't you agree?

And although we haven't seen Hung Gar in UFC, we have seen Wing Chun players gotten absolutely smashed by UFC or even western boxers.

You did mention that those other styles are merely sports combat, from you statement, it is blatenly obvious that your Hung Gar style which you so highly revere and defend is much less than the sports-combat styles you so put down.

Perhaps you are intelectually challenged to the extent that within the logic of your argument, you argue against yourself.

If you haven't noticed in your training, BJJ players don't waste time with lion dancing, whereas you do. Why don't you ask your sifu why he / she is wasting your time and money?

In any case, you asked for help and you've got the best, frank and honest feeback from the Ego Maximus Extrodinaire. So go away my little beginner and think about what I say. I do give you the benefit of the doubt that you are smart enough to understand what i'm saying. It takes awhile before beginners get conditioned into southern kung fu society, in that there may be hope for you yet.

Helicopter

09-10-2002, 08:09 AM

I half-remember maxim I read (It may have been someone's sig)
Anyway to paraphrase:

" A man revelling in his ignorance, is like a monkey adourning itself with garbage."

Not 100% correct I don't doubt, but you get the point.

tomcat

09-12-2002, 10:11 AM

The only art Ego has mastered is diarrhea of the mouth!!

needlefist

09-13-2002, 04:53 AM

If Ego gets you posting and better still thinking before posting, then he's done a good job. You can use his points to reflect on what you do in a different light. What if he were right about some things? Would we admit it to ourselves, would we admit it here?
What then? If he is right, then we need look at ourselves, at our beliefs about things and what we practice. That takes more courage than simply dissing someone.

I've done Bak-Siu-Lum and Hung-Gar. Ego is apparently a 'Northerner' and seems to put down Southern systems. My Si-Fu taught Bak-Siu-Lum first before Hung Gar because he said BSL was easier to learn and to understand. Is that true? How should I know, I've not learned BSL from any other source. If its just what 'Si-Fu says' then of course he's right.

If what we do is any good then Ego is our friend, he'll prompt us to reflect on the value of what we do, and, maybe, share that here with others.

There are many species of Troll, some of them are actually helpful.
It all depends on how we understand them.

HuangKaiVun

09-13-2002, 11:18 AM

In all honesty, I am very interested in why TKD works better than Hung Gar for Ego.

Ego has stated earlier that he is wheelchair bound. My medical training tells me that he has limited use of his legs and thus cannot even do the TKD kicks from a seated position.

On the other hand, one can do Hung Ga from a seated position. One can get pretty darn good at Hung Ga from a seated position, especially since wheelchair folks like Ego have presumably strong arms to assist themselves in locomotion.

So Ego, this is not a flame. I'm asking you why Hung Ga doesn't work for YOU and why TKD DOES.

guohuen

09-13-2002, 11:45 AM

That's an exellant question. TKD is great, but Kai's logic is very sound on this.

needlefist

09-13-2002, 12:52 PM

Given that he is/maybe disabled and now sadly in a wheelchair, it might be pertinent to ask him about his experience prior to his disability.

His posts have over time suggested an extensive amount of time in martial arts.

Past experience is valuable, and for those who suffer from a disability, the past is a source of life - and legitimately so.

Would you turn your back on a teacher who was disabled when you met him? And do so without regard for what he may have achieved in his years of health?

Teachers come in many forms. It may be simply rude to ignore or berrate one who is obviously a teacher and has something unusual by way of perspective to offer. With the unobvious teacher some applied intelligence is needed to understand just what the lesson is. Where that fails, then ignorrance has triumphed.

HuangKaiVun

09-15-2002, 01:16 PM

I would most certainly turn my back on a teacher who consistently flames certain styles and those who practice them.

Any REAL fighter who's actually FOUGHT knows that just because a style isn't his cup of tea doesn't mean that NOBODY from that style can fight.

Ego consistently does this. He hasn't just done this on this thread. Constantly he spews about how the Southern styles are so inferior and those who practice them can't fight.

The thing is that we have several Southern stylists that post here who obviously CAN fight. Their very existence shines the light of reason on Ego's ego posts.

So EGO might have "experience", but experience in and of itself doesn't make him SMARTER.

needlefist

09-16-2002, 12:44 AM

I try not to get offended by Ego, this is the internet, and 'public' forums are far less real than everyday life.

Ego isn't naming himself or his school, doesn't claim to speak for a particular Pai, so why get upset?

Given the above why not learn from Ego? What can be learned?
A lot about ourselves and our reactions.

If we are secure in what we do, he can't possibly harm us, so why be insulted?

What he's doing is drawing people out. The most productive reaction to that isn't counter-flamming, it isn't even ignorring him, its examining our feelings and reactions to what he states.
That will allow people to address just what if any substance there is to Ego's claims. It will also mean that the best arguments can then be put forward in support of southern systems, and that these points can be shared productively between Southern stylists.

Use the Ego, use him to draw out the positive and the productive.
Don't be drawn on negative emotions, it just puts the position of Southern systems into a bad and defensive reactionary light.

If we can act productively, then Ego will have done his job

saurian

09-17-2002, 05:22 AM

Jable, you would probably find Bucksam Kong's book on Tiger/Crane form an excellent choice. As for Ego, I suspect his "fighting" is limited to the sporting ring, judging from his viewpoints. I grew up in Korea as a child learning TKD, and yes, the horse-stance was the 1st thing we learned. It must be mastered for its benefits to be appreciated (among them, great mobility from a low, powerful posture), and somebody forming an opinion about it without actually experiencing it in full = foolishness. Our training regimen was kinda on the brutal side compared to what most in this country would be used to, almost like traditional chinese training methods. We trained for combat, not for playfighting. I got quite good. I always kinda liked Hung Gar cuz it reminded me of a hand-oriented version of TKD (Tiger), but now I practice a style of southern mantis. In search of a real martial art, all I found were these tournament-oriented gyms with padded playfighters impressing themselves with moves that would get them killed in most country bars which, judging from his remarks, is the full extent of Ego's skills. Don't kid yourself, Jable, it isn't the art so much as it is the man or woman who practices it that makes it lethal.

JMagnano

09-17-2002, 12:48 PM

Pick up a copy of Kung Fu magazine especially this past issue and you should see ads on Hung Gar. Although your far better off training with a Sifu books are good for review and picking up good info. GOOD LUCK (check the current issue of Kung Fu magazine as I recall seeing something about Hung Gar.)

Jables

09-17-2002, 03:49 PM

Thanks to all! I do have a Sifu, thankfully. And he has taught me much through the short time that I have been training. I enjoy Hung Gar very much and I hope to continue for a very long time. I was looking for a few books or tapes to help me understand a few things about my style. Thanks to all for the suggestions.

Ego_Extrodinaire

09-24-2002, 05:22 AM

Jables: I'm glad you're finally seeing the lighter side of things and having fun. Have a good time with your training and don't be dishartened if someone dis your style. You should be doing kf because it is something you enjoy not to gain approval from other. You have my approval.

Saurian: I have Bucksam Kong's book on tiger crane of Hung Gar. I've studied it and the applications are crap. Typical hong kong chop fooey. I don't think he actually knows how to apply the form. It is not surprising that in the introduction, his son is doing tennis instead of kung fu.

needlefist

09-24-2002, 06:03 AM

Ego,

Personalities aside (re your naming a specific teachers alleged poor rendition of applications), just suppose that you are making a point, and I for one think that you are, that is worth addressing:
what is the counter argument in defense of that book and its san-sau? Any Hung-Gar people out there willing to discuss that with Ego here?

If he is very wrong then it should be easy enough to do. If he's partly right in some way, then, we could all learn from the debate.

Just what is 'application' in real terms anyway? Is it simply a transfer of structure from form to function? Is it something more, or something different?

Maybe we can all look at how we train a little closer, away perhaps from the sometimes insidious way we get culturalized into thinking about things.

But then... maybe no one thinks that they've anything to learn.

Jables

09-24-2002, 08:32 AM

I've always been able to see the lighter side of things. I've never sought anyone's approval for taking the style that I am taking. Nor do I require yours. I'm not sure what makes you the formost expert on .... anything. As that seems to be your style. It's sad really.

To the others that have offered actual advice was to whom my thanks went. Not to those who wanted to detract from my original post and hijack the thread for their own egotistical endeavors.

Jables

09-24-2002, 08:33 AM

Just let this thread die... It should not have gone on as long as it has for such a simple question.

Ego_Extrodinaire

09-26-2002, 07:52 AM

Needlefist: let me start the discussion. There are 159 pages in the book and I have opened the book at random to page 25. I shall comment on the flaws. Picture A: No one would grab you with 30 cm distance between their chest and your back. Picture B: Bringing the oppoents arms up from chest hight to your face height is utterly stupid. The oppoent whould smack you in the face and go for your neck. As a result you'll not be able to perform Picture C and d.

Now go to page 53: Blocks B and C would probably miss a real punch. There is no value in sweeping the punch 200m away in picture C. It would only assist the oppoent's momentum to swing the left arm at you, or worse still do a lift kick into your testicles. Really stupid to stand in a horse stance with toes pointing out wards & facing the opponent. You'll not be able to perform the counter in picture D.

Find me any page and I will illustrate the flaws to you.

Jables: you've displayed your ignorance upon the first word you wrote on this forum. You truely are a beginner and would best keep quiet, stick around and read what ego has to say. Purchase this book - it's great for a laugh after you have considered the stratrgic flaws. You asked for help - there's no backing out now.

needlefist

09-26-2002, 08:19 AM

Ego,

I don't have the book, but, it sounds typical of many. What little I know of Bucksam Kong suggests that he has very high (deservedly so) standing and respect in the TCMA world.

With respect to your descriptions of technique, I can, in absence of viewing the pages you quote, only agree with your analysis.

If the structure of form is supposed to map directly onto applied function then probably most of TCMA fails immediately. The problem then is in how (if at all) to make any of it work, that is any of it Northern or Southern.

You'd have to exactly replicate the structures on both sides of the equation, and the environemnt and mind set of the protagonists involved to get out the exact result as pictured in most 'sequences' in books or other media such as film, that represent 'applied' martial arts.

Personally, I don't find that such a let down, its just the truth, and that's something we are supposed to work with in order to grow. It becomes an interesting problem, because as soon as its accepted, the practitioner starts to become a real artist, creative and self developing through a specific medium (their chosen style).

Most of us these days don't (or haven't) had enough fights to get outside of the culturalization that occurs when we begin training.
If we did, we'd be forced to either become like the JKD guys, take up MMA, or, really start to make efforts to understand our system.

I think traditional arts can work, it just takes effort to understand what you have, and that involves not mistaking elementary form for applied function.

Hopefully, some Hung-Gar people who hav ethe book will take up the offer and work it through. It would make them think and maybe 'do' things a lot differently

Ego_Extrodinaire

09-26-2002, 08:37 AM

Needlefist: If one understands the forms of northern systems there is a direct translation to application, in fact there are many applications for any given move.

I suspect if tiger crane was illustrated properly and if indeed hung gar is a kung fu style, the same could be said. Which begs the question as to to why BK chose to illustrate an example that is not practical out of all the alternatives that are practical.

If BK is held in such high standing that why don't the illustrations show that he understands the forms or is this all that Hung Gar has to offer?

Jables

09-26-2002, 10:54 AM

Jables: you've displayed your ignorance upon the first word you wrote on this forum. You truely are a beginner and would best keep quiet, stick around and read what ego has to say. Purchase this book - it's great for a laugh after you have considered the stratrgic flaws. You asked for help - there's no backing out now.

I didn't display any such thing. I said I didn't know, so I asked. I've never claimed to be an expert on anything. You, on the other hand, claim to be an undesputed expert in everything TKD. And I did NOT ask for help in TKD. Nor, did I ask for any input about TKD. I asked about Hung Gar. I asked for books or history or tapes on Hung Gar. You chose to tell me how TKD is superior to Hung Gar. Not what I asked for junior. Move on. You have NOT contributed to this thread in any constructive manner that I can see. You don't like Hung Gar. Fine go tell it to someone who cares. Perhaps someone who takes TKD? You seem to know absolutely NOTHING about Hung Gar, which is what this post is all about, and yet you persist. I didn't ask for your particular brand of help, nor do I require it at this time. Thank you ego, thank you for nothing.

needlefist

09-26-2002, 11:56 AM

Ego,

Direct translation from a single movement to multiple applications is to extend away from apparent 'form' into applied function.
A single movement is what it is, as 'form'. As 'function' it is interpreted, and that is 'a' key to understanding form.

I've done Bak-Siu-Lum, not the Wing-Lam variety, but Northern Shaolin nevertheless. I never found any difference between form and transferability to function between Northern and Southern Shaolin.

Both are abstract.

Which is their strength, rather than a weakness.

Abstraction requires contextualization to be 'understood', which in this context means application.

No form can read true as a direct isomorphism for all possible contexts.

Therefore, abstraction carries latent information as highly compressed data, which needs to be 'read' in order to be applied.

The forms are not the style any more than the bodies DNA is its end product. DNA (continuing the informational metaphor) requires Transfer and Messenger ribonucleic acid (tRNA and mRNA) in order to be correctly transcribed.

You need experience and intelligence (of a sort) to apply martial arts 'form' to its function.

Some applications are recessive and don't work, or get the 'reader' beat-up or killed. Some work elegantly.

Forms are not 'the' style, any style. Styles are made up from the qualitative sum of their practitioners - no practitioners is no style.
So, howsoever poorly ONE or even several representatives of a given system may appear to be, they cannot be all of that style, maybe not even typical of it.

In these regards, there is no difference at all between North and South.

Ego_Extrodinaire

09-27-2002, 06:40 AM

Needlefist,

What you say still begs the question as to why the author would demonstrate applications based on the form that does not work.

It is either the style is useless or the author is useless. If this author is held in such high regard by practitioners of that style, then both the author and the style are useless.

I'm surprised that no one has commented on those pages i had brought up. I wonder whether it is because it is straight to the point.

Actually, I have come across Northern Kung Fu books where the applications shown comes direct from the form and can be used in combat. But there are many that don't measure up to my high standards. LKW book on 7 star mantis is quite bad in my opinion.

Jables: keep quiet until you have read the Tiger Crane book. Otherwise you'll not know what this conversation is about. You seem to be ignorant of your own ignorance.

needlefist

09-27-2002, 10:24 AM

Ego,

Your question is answered, at least in potentia in that the culturalization process of (probably) all TCMA systems produces what you have reported about that book and its representation of form tansferability into function.

Yes, of course, some techniques can translate directly, but no single structure in itself can apply (map) isomorphically onto all possible variations in opponent and situation.

This, as I said, is the latent value of abstract information carrying capacity in forms, provided that they can be read efficiently.

I suggest that is the real issue, one of transcription from form to function. If that can be 'done', then its QED.

It follows that transcription is down to the individual, and that is where the limitations primarily lie, not in the style as such.

People are highly thought of in all traditions, some even across traditions. The 'why' of this comes down to many things. Value in human terms is mutidimensional.

You are valuable too, just as I've argued here on this forum. Some would rather exclude that possibility and say so.

I prefer to engage in dialogue and make efforts to move on towards a better understanding.

I'd say, having followed your arguments as closely as I can, that you have very good points to raise. I'd add to that, the observation of a palpable lack of engagement from many people in a debate about those issues.

Going into denial or simply ignorring provocative statements doesn't make them go away, and it certainly does not refute them.

These (other) people could do well to ask of themselves (and here in public if they have the courage) "What makes my system work, as taught?" That kind of question would require an honest approach, maybe even a facing up to a lot of illusions about the culturalization process of TCMA.

HuangKaiVun

09-27-2002, 01:07 PM

The reason, needlefist, you observe "a palpable lack of engagement from many people" is because Ego's posts consistently go AGAINST BASIC COMMON SENSE.

For example, I want Ego tell me why Lee Kam Wing's 7-Star book is so terrible.

How come when I use the moves from that book on people, they WORK?

And if Ego is questioning the efficacy of Hung Ga still, I can only say that he should cross hands with people. He'll find out if the stuff works or not.

I also still want to know, Ego, why TKD works so much better for you than Hung Ga does. What fighting experience of yours do you draw this conclusion from?

A truly high level martial artist (NOT Ego) would NEVER flame other styles, even for a so-called "teaching" purpose.

That is because a guy who actually FIGHTS knows that he might get physically called on his flames and LOSE.

Besides, Southern and Northern kung fu is the SAME when stripped down to their most basic combat fundamentals.

needlefist

09-27-2002, 01:57 PM

HuangKaiVun

Your last two lines sum up a point I made in my last two posts to Ego.

If you are a Hung-Gar man Ego can't hurt you or your style, same if you are Seven Star Mantis.

What can he do?

If Ego enters the debate in depth maybe he'll learn something too?

Even that is possible.

FWIW I believe that Ego has asked (however rudely as perceived by some of us) some important questions. Can we answer them?

If some think that Ego is a South style hating troll, well, how do we utilize that productively? Maybe ignorring him is a good option, but he won't go away, and neither will his statements.

Take them on, work them thru, if there is nothing in them then the Ego will go away. If he's right - even a little bit, maybe we can all learn something.

Ego_Extrodinaire

09-28-2002, 04:55 PM

Needlefist: I'm happy to discuss specifics of the tiger crane book if only Hung Gar people would respond. Surely this cannot be considered a "troll post" as what i posted was not an open ended or generalized statement.

Hungkaivun: In my opinion, the LKW book misses the point of how the mantis hook should be used. It doesn't seem to be an error in one page or one illustration but it is prevalent through out the book. In any case most of the diagrams only show the upper half of the body without showing the footwork. Mantis is not like wing chun or hung gar where you root yourself on the ground and slug it out with hands.

To answer your question, most people who do kung fu are useless fighters. With a bit of co-operation on their part, techniques from that book probably would work quite well. It might be because your kung fu is not as bad as theirs.

I've already lost the use of my legs. They gain less than an ego trip even if they come around and beat up a cripple.

HuangKaiVun

09-28-2002, 08:21 PM

I studied Hung Ga, and I don't ever remember being taught to be "rooted to the floor and slug it out with hands".

Actually, I found the footwork of Hung Ga very efficacious. Kicks, punches, spins, shuffles, the style had it all as far as moving in a fight goes. Of course, one has to do it RIGHT.

Similarly, I've noticed 6-harmony Mantis stylists utilizing the same side horse footwork used in Hung Ga. That's the footwork that I've been using to spar with, and it's not absent from 7-star mantis either.

As far as Lee Kam Wing's book goes, I have the edition in which he does the Mantis techniques against the Wing Chun dummy. That was the material I use in sparring matches, and it matched up with the material I learned from my real-life 7-star instructor.

I recall there being footwork in Lee's manual. The book is not in my possession at the movement, but I'll check it at the next opportunity.

I don't have the latest Lee Kam Wing book, but I'd imagine that it had a lot of the same stuff that the older book had. His techniques look EXACTLY like those done by my sifu.

Just because a guy has a strong stance doesn't mean that he is immobile.

Ego_Extrodinaire

09-29-2002, 06:20 AM

HuangKaiVun:

Hung Gar has some movement to a degree. I was commenting more on the material presented in that book.

i don't think 6 harmonies mantis have their toes pointed outwards in a horse stance like what was presented in the tiger crane book. That horse stance is all wrong. I can't imagine anyone using a horse stance (with toes pointing outwards) for fighting.

Your real life 7 star mantis mush have been from the Hong Kong schools. I can't understand why one would do mantis against a wing chun wooden dummy. It is worth more as fire wood.

Yes I have seen LKW secret of seven star mantis. Not much different from the first.

HuangKaiVun

09-29-2002, 07:21 AM

When a person actually fights, the toes inevitably point a bit outward from the horse stance.

Some styles choose to acknowledge that reality in the sets, others choose to emphasize the straight-toe posture because it helps train the legs.

I'm a guy that does straight-toe horse, and even MY feet point somewhat outward when fighting. I do hold my knees and thighs pretty much the way I would in the straight-toe stance, though. I've also met guys that fight GREAT out of the side horse with that slightly toe-out posture.

The wing chun wooden dummy can be a great tool for training proper posture, distance, and jing distribution. Lee Kam Wing uses the dummy to work the angles as well as the applications. I do not understand why you feel that the dummy is "firewood", especially because I translate a lot of that stuff into real fighting.

Anybody can criticize - or build up - a guy's performance of fighting sets. But the proof of the pudding is putting it into ACTION against a resisting opponent.

I will tell you from fighting experience that both Hung Ga and Lee's seven star work GREAT in that scenario.

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-04-2002, 08:41 PM

Hung,

Having the toe pointed outwards in a horse stance doesn't give much stability. I don't see how you would do this in a real fight. The useage of horse stance loses its effectiveness unless you have parallel feet.

Accordingly it is shoddy practice that such forms teach the toe outward trick. It is not as much an acknowledgement that this is what happens in real fighting but more so on the quality of the fighter!

No! wooden dummies teach very little in my opinion unless you dealing with an opponent with stiff arms an unbendible elbows and no reaction. Having the back of the dummy bolted to the wall does not give enough range of movement for a mantis practitioner.

If you do proper 7 star mantis, I cannot understand with any stretch of my imagination how the dummy can be useful. It lacks the vital components that make mantis, Mantis! You need a life opponent to train with.

Put it another way Wang didn't discover the mantis style by observing the insect drag away a dead cicada did he?

I think you have been learning a watered down version of mantis, probably something that came from the Hong Kong schools or Ching Mo association.

HuangKaiVun

10-05-2002, 07:22 PM

Ego, many of the traditional styles use things like static posts and walls for training one's posture.

The Wing Chun dummy isn't a perfect simulation of a live opponent and isn't meant to be. Neither is the ba gua post, ba ji tree, or Shaolin bronzeman. But that doesn't make it completely useless either.

In fact, I really got a good understanding of what Mantis could and couldn't do by practicing a dummy. When I first started training in the art, I didn't realize the full utility of the arms and legs. It was Lee Kam Wing's wooden dummy portrayal that clued me in on how the postures were supposed to be used. Since then, I've been using that stuff in freeflow combat for YEARS.

One practices the solo form, then he practices on an inanimate object, then he practices on a person. This is the way my teachers trained me, and it's why my Mantis WORKS in a fight.

The lineage of my Mantis probably isn't legitimate, but I take my wooden-dummied Mantis to combat on a near daily basis. It has not failed me yet, despite your insistence that it should.

Shoddy practice or not, you wouldn't want to fight some of the toe-out guys I know Ego. They'll kick your butt.

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-06-2002, 07:11 AM

Hung: I think the wooden dummy is good for wing chun and other short hand southern styles like spm or white crane. It is an equipment suitable for that range. But i don't see how from this you can discover the limitations of mantis. Maybe you've discovered the limitations of mantis in relation to that piece of equipment. The stances you speak of is very very basic for mantis and other northern styles.

I'm surprised that even your mantis worked so well in real combat for a version that is limited to the wooden dummy training. Mantis like other northnern syles are very good, far superior to southern styles. Imagine if you'd learn the real deal.

The baji tree you mentioned is for strength training, very different aim compared to working out tactics etc. which you'll need live opponents. What the wooden dummy can offer is very basic to the extreme. If not for my disabilities, i'll get bored of it in an hour.

As for kicking my butt, they'll have to haul my fat @ss off the wheel chair. Sorry to say that with toes pointing outwards, they wouldn't be rooted enough to do so. They'll be screwed.

guohuen

10-06-2002, 09:37 AM

This is why medium and long range techniques were added to Hung Gar.

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-06-2002, 05:25 PM

Gouhuen,

I guessed as much. That's why when practicing Hung Gar it feels very piece meal as opposed to an integrated system. A piece meal system consisting of a mixture of principals is impractical in real combat.

Drake

10-07-2002, 09:42 AM

Why are we arguing over which style is more "combat efficient"? Wouldn't that be determined by the type of combat, weapons involved, number of participants, environment, and a myriad of other factors? Quite personally, I think M-16 fu would defeat your kicking arts at 300 yards. As you can see, it isn't so much the art, but the circumstances. Not to say that any fighting art is good or bad, but circumstances more often than style dictates the outcome.
To base a martial art on it's forms is not unlike judging a painting by it's frame. And to judge those whom you do not know is folly. One could watch a form, call it slow, perhaps over-extending, and then from that conclude the same for the entire art, while never actually looking at the painting itself.
Secondly, bashing someone is in fact a double-edged sword. As you may infuriate the intended target, you are also under the eyes of others, and such behavior could be construed as childish, or worse, a sign of ignorance or lack of substance in your argument.
Something to think about... name one art where arrogance is considered a good thing?

Drake~

Losttrak

10-07-2002, 09:54 AM

Read every martial arts book you can get your hands on. =p Diversify your knowledge while you maintain your focus on one style. Your mind can take in far more than your body can train. For every real match you fight in.... you must fight at least 20 more in your head. Then you will be prepared for most situations.

HuangKaiVun

10-07-2002, 11:11 AM

Ego, I don't think you're in a position to be degrading anybody's kung fu - especially not MINE.

You say that my mantis is "limited to wooden dummy training." That's something you made up, not me.

I trained the Mantis sets under a real sifu. We USE our training in fights. There's nothing "watered down" about my Mantis.

Even though you're in a wheelchair, I wouldn't hesitate to get in a wheelchair myself and demonstrate it against you.

Calling my kung fu "watered down" is NOT a good idea, especially for somebody in YOUR shoes.

desertwingchun2

10-07-2002, 04:49 PM

Ego - I believe you are correct to say that this forum is not to pay respect or do shrine worship but, it is for the martial arts community to share ideas and communiques. In that spirit it would be wise and is expected that individuals will act with proper mo duk (sp??) I have only read a few of your post and they do reflect poorly upon you. As for attacking Hungs' kung fu or anyone elses - that is in very poor taste since you cannot back up your assumptions. Although Hung seems eagar to level the playing field. I am glad to have a gentleman of Hungs integrity in my backyard.(chandler,az)
-David

HuangKaiVun

10-07-2002, 07:40 PM

When were there NOT medium and long range methods in Hung Ga?

Gung Gee, Fu Hok, 5 Animals, 10 elements/Animals, Tiet Sin - all have short, medium AND long range techniques to them.

Also, the system is VERY integrated. It's so integrated that a guy could study just one of the sets to completion and be a totally effective fighter. There are guys from China who know ONLY Gung Gee or ONLY Fu Hok, and they're very tough fighters.

Hung Ga "impractical" in combat? Prove it.

SanSoo Student

10-07-2002, 10:19 PM

I don'tthink its anybody's place to be putting down styles of fighting or Kung Fu. One should remember that it is the practioner that causes the art to be faulty, not the style itself. Don't blame the style, blame the person.

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-08-2002, 06:32 AM

Drake:

You sure are a junior member (from the way you write) and know little about scientific analysis. Without straining your brain, I jsut though you might like to know you'll need to compare the same subject matter under the same condition. I was talking about hand to hand combat. When the fcuk did you come up with an M 16 assault rifle. you're less of a drake and more like a goose!

Lossttrak:

Good in theory but most books are rubbish. For example 7 star mantis is a wonderful system, but LKW books in my opinion is total rubbish. even then what little valuable material being presented is reveared by some hung gar practitioners who know no better.

Hungkaivun:

You haven't seen degrading yet. but spilling the beans on what i think of your style might cause you too much psychological trauma. I'm gracious enough to spare you that. I may dislike the stles that you do but it doesn't mean that I dislike you.

It was you who admited that you're lineage of mantis is not legit., to which I fully agree. So don't back out of that statement and try to go fist cuffs with a physically disabled person in a wheel chair. you don't have to prove your "dummy mantis" to us this way.

Would you be preapred then to comment on the fu hok form as presented in BSK's book. I have already critiqued a cople of examples showing how hopless it is.

desertwingshun2:

If you read more of my post you would have realized that I was prepared to go into an indepth discussion on the Fu Hok style as presented in BSK book. But no hung gar person has come close to taking me up on that offer. Rather they have taken my comments personally. Let me ask you is that Mo Duk?

SanSooStudent:

Oh I see, don't blame the style, blame the person you say. Don't people create styles. Farmers in southern china and sailors in red junks sure know little about military strategy and fighting. surely they are to blame for the stupid stlyes they have created. But you only have yourself to blame if you persisit in learning these styles today!

Jables

10-08-2002, 07:08 AM

Ego,

You have expounded on your hatred of various styles. You have bashed the heritage of other styles. But the one thing you have not provided, in your (lack of) wisdom, is proof. Tell me why Hung Gar is ineffective. Tell me how ANY Southern Style is ineffective. You show your own ignorance by restating the same garbage. But you show no proof. You have nothing but your own ignorance to tell you that any style is ineffective. I suggest you be quiet until you have such proof.

Jables.

Drake

10-08-2002, 07:25 AM

And Ego, I did stress factors that would affect hand to hand combat. You ARE aware why northern and southern styles are different, yes?
As for where would I get an M-16... why, from my Arms Room, of course. It's an M16A2, though, if you want to get technical. Requalified last month, actually. :D
I'm not about to get into either a name calling contest nor a "my style is better than yours" debate. That's just plain childish. What I AM saying, however, is that it does seem you are making many accusations based on your own perception of this utopian hand to hand combat situation where your techniques always work and the opponent's always fail. Get offended all you like by this, as I am certain you will.
I also don't seem to understand your criticism of forms, as they aren't meant to replicate actual combat. They are meant to polish techniques and transition, and create a bit of a "second-nature" effect when fighting. Same with wooden dummy training. Why, for forms to be combat effective, it would require that the situation be choreographed exactly as the form requires.
With the issue of toes sticking outwards, exactly how far are we talking here? 5 degrees from perpendicular? 10? 20? Does it matter if the horse stance will be held for maybe a few seconds, if that, and the stance following, say, ichi stance, will have the foot turning regardless? Would any angle short of a good 45 degrees one way or the other affect balance all that much? For those of you who can, why not get into a Say Ping Ma, and gradually point your toes outward to see how it affects balance, etc. And for sake of argument, then see how it would affect you moving to another stance.
I'm not all that familiar with Hung Gar, but it seems to me to be pretty resilent and popular for a "slow and useless" art. Most poor fighting styles suffer from Natural Selection, and go the way of the little yellow bug in those pictures representing Darwinism.
As for referring to me as a "junior member", I do realize that was an attempt to either anger or intimidate me. That's fine, since a)I am a writer on my spare time b)I am a martial artist and c) This is hardly the first board I have ever been on.
Ego, without knowing too much about you, I can see you are full of anger and resentment, and for that reason, I will not condemn you. But really, you must deal with those issues, or else you will only hurt yourself. I am sorry about you being wheelchair bound, and I hope you find peace with yourself.

Drake~

Drake

10-08-2002, 07:29 AM

Oh yeah, and the M-16A2 isn't an assault rifle. It's a 5.56mm gas-powered, shoulder fired weapon capable of either single shot or three round bursts.
The SAW (M249)... now THAT is an assualt rifle... hehehe. Suppressive fire is a great thing. :)

Drake~

Jables

10-08-2002, 07:44 AM

Well put! (On both posts) :D

TIger Hand

10-08-2002, 08:37 AM

Ego the BUTHEAD!

Your logic is as faulty as your legs!

Yup, people create styles, and I'm sure those INCOMPETENT generals and military tacticians that let the Manchus invade from the north; japanese pirates raid the southern coast (in which the Emperor had to ask shaolin monks to squash the pirates) were responsible for the creation of all those equally USELESS styles you profess to be "superior, force multiplying"

We had this debate with EGO before and he literally and figuratively doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Northern styles are great as well as southern, but it has nothing to do with any of the points the ego makes.

HuangKaiVun

10-08-2002, 01:08 PM

Ego, let's meet in person to discuss this further via sparring.

I easily could travel out to New Jersey at some point, as I have friends and family that live out there. I have made it a habit to meet kung fu practitioners in person, as others on this forum will attest.

If you have the REAL mantis to teach me, I want to learn it from you. You need to SHOW ME how fake my mantis is because your words are not registering in my ears.

I'd love to test my Mantis against you. I'll get in a wheelchair and we'll do this. Keep in mind that you'd have the advantage for two reasons: I have never been in a wheelchair before, and you have Northern kung fu. So we both expect you to win this one easily.

For the record, older generation masters like Bucksam Kong deliberately hide their applications when putting out videos or books.

JMagnano

10-08-2002, 01:37 PM

What's all the argument on styles? You've heard about football that on any given day who knows what team can win. Styles were invented to solve problems. Northern and Southern each had their virtues because of the problem they each were trying to solve when it came to self defense. I get sad when I see all this arguing on this board (including insults) when someone asks a question. As for styles Bruce Lee said his style was the art of fighting without fighting. So what's Up DOC! (with all this fighting-on this board)!

Originally posted by TIger Hand
Ego the BUTHEAD!

Your logic is as faulty as your legs!

Yup, people create styles, and I'm sure those INCOMPETENT generals and military tacticians that let the Manchus invade from the north; japanese pirates raid the southern coast (in which the Emperor had to ask shaolin monks to squash the pirates) were responsible for the creation of all those equally USELESS styles you profess to be "superior, force multiplying"

We had this debate with EGO before and he literally and figuratively doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Northern styles are great as well as southern, but it has nothing to do with any of the points the ego makes.

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-09-2002, 05:51 AM

Jables: Have a read of BSK's book on Tiger crane. In my opinion it is proof enough for you. Junior have you read it like I suggested?

Drake: Guns aside I was referring specifically to the illustrations on form application in the book by BSK. If you can get hold of the book, you'll see what i mean. It is not me representing the form in combat, i was commenting on how the authors representations are impractical.

Fights last from afew seconds to a few mins. Bad form can leave you open for a good practitioner to take advantage of.

The Darwinian thing to do in those days was for them to hide in red junks. They trained Hung Gar and performed in chinese operas to feed their families. You're mistaken that Dawnian theory creates only good preditors like the praying mantis. The same theory created sheep. Rather than confronting superior northern skill, hung gar players learned learned to hide.

Tigerhand: is back to name calling. It was politics that led to the success of the mongol invasion. The mongols also had superior calvery. Up until (and including some battles in WW1) having a good calvery gave a massive tactical advantage.

The chinese cost line is massive. Monks lived in large communities and were a deterent for raders. Their numbers (raiders) were limited to the logistics of sea transport.

Nevertheless northern kung fu remains the superior hand to hand form, its use in the military has been documented and it is also used to train elite chinese troops today.

HuangKaiVun: From what you say about BSK, it would appear that misrepresenting one's style is damaging for one's reputation not to mention dishonest (for a student who had bought these books for reference). Or perhaps he had nothing to show in the first place. So take your pick dishonesty or incompetence. Eitherway its a sad state.

Given that LKM is not that young and you trained from his book and your master shows you similar techniques, aren't you a least bit dubious of what you've learned. I have written no book, i'm not you're instrustor, perhaps i'm telling you the truth.

Fighting a cripple in a wheelchair match to validate your own style appears that you lack self confidence. Is this what you mean all along when you've been applying your "dummy mantis" to sparring for years. I'm not surprised that hung gar hasn't failed you.

JMagnano: Brue Lee is over rated. He just made it big in hollywood. There were few fights that Bruce actually got into.

Jables

10-09-2002, 06:09 AM

Jables: Have a read of BSK's book on Tiger crane. In my opinion it is proof enough for you. Junior have you read it like I suggested?

So you've stooped to name calling as well? You are not my senior and therefore have not earned the right to call me junior. That aside, I have read enough of the tiger crane book to realise it is not enough information to judge the entire system on. Therefore your proof is lacking yet again. You have no argument. But you are too ignorant to face it. You'd much rather sit in your perfect scenario, and pontificate about which system is good or bad based, not on instruction or experience, on a book. That lacks wisdom. It also bares your ugly ignorance for all to see.

jon

10-09-2002, 07:14 AM

lol seeing as this thread has now gone on eight pages and im really not sure if anyone has yet pointed this out.
You guys are all falling right into our friend ego's little game.
Ive done it too, no need to be ashamed just seriously dont bother wasting your effort.
All he is doing is deliberately stiring you up by picking on the very things he knows well will inflame you.
Obviously disjointed logic, outrageous claims, flat out lies, commen misconceptions, frequently argued topics, all are the weapons of choice.
This is nothing but fun for him and please realise your doing exactly what it is that he wishes.
If you dont believe me then treat him with humour or simply dont bother to argue with him.
His name alone should be enough of a giveaway.

Ego_Extrodinaire
Think about it...
Who's ego is he really playing, his or yours?
In many ways he is really quite clever, just dont let him hear me saying that...
Opps:confused: ;) :D

sweaty_dog

10-09-2002, 08:37 AM

"The mongols also had superior calvery. Up until (and including some battles in WW1) having a good calvery gave a massive tactical advantage."

Nothing more dangerous than a superior calve.

HuangKaiVun

10-09-2002, 08:49 AM

You LOST THIS MATCH, Ego.

You have all this Northern kung fu and STILL you are afraid to face me?

I challenge you 3 times and you don't even want to meet me in person to discuss this?

Go back to doing whatever you do to yourself behind that screen of yours.

Meanwhile, professionals like Bucksam Kong and myself will continue to TRAIN our Southern Kung Fu.

Jables

10-09-2002, 10:28 AM

Military use of horses is called cavalry. Just FYI there.

TIger Hand

10-09-2002, 03:54 PM

EGO-

I call you names because you deserve every disrespect a person can give.......hahahaha.....

I made you look like an idiot in our last debate.

So much so, that you began to ignore me even after I copied my response 4 times in a row. Yet you are still arguing the same moronic points.

Can you come up with something new?

P.S. HuangKai. has challenged you on your terms, are you gonna ignore him too??????

He seems to be a lot more serious about making you look like an idiot than Iam.

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-10-2002, 07:56 AM

Jables: Of course i have a right to call you junior. You are a junior member and I am a senior member on this forum. Hasn't Southern Kung Fu taught you anything about respecting your elders? You bring shame to your kung fu style, your sifu, your sihing, si sook and all those si that have passed away with their cremated ashes stored in little urns for you students to worship (bai si). Why not light 3 jaw sticks, kneel infront of their shrine and beg for atonement. If you follow these rituals, you might someday inherit their chi kung which they might bestow to you from the nether world.

TigerHand: whats up kitten? I'm sure HungKaiVun can speak for himself. You've copied your response 4 times in a row (as you said), maybe the person who can't come up with anything new is yourself.

I'm sure you're smarter than this or at least you were prior to southern kung fu conditioning.

Jables

10-10-2002, 08:14 AM

You lack respect and therefore have not earned any respect, from me or from anyone. You are a senior member only in the number of posts you have made, not the skill in which you say it. For that reason I do not now, nor will I ever, recognize you as my senior in anything. As you have shown no respect, I will show you none in return.

You also lack any proof of what you say.

When I started this thread I asked for information, books, or videos that could assist me to understand the forms of Hung Gar. You offered no help, no respect, and no insight. Instead you chose to inform me of your hatred of southern styles. Instead you chose to expound upon the virtues of Tae Kwan Do. You have won, Ego. You have successfully hijacked this thread from what it was originally intended, and turned it into the spite-filled rant that you apparently enjoy. So pat yourself on the back Ego. You have successfully shown your a$$ to the forum.

Brad

10-10-2002, 04:51 PM

Hey Ego, do you have a website?

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-11-2002, 05:36 AM

Brad,

People have frequently asked me that. I don't maintain a web page

Brad

10-11-2002, 06:14 AM

Really? I thought you were a Baji guy? And you had a website with a history of MT vs. Kungfu page on it. Also claimed BJJ+MT+Baji was the best combination of arts to cross train in?

TIger Hand

10-11-2002, 04:39 PM

EGO the "BUTHEAD"

I will come up with something new when you decide to refute my point that I posted several MONTHS ago.

Until then you are just a "BUTHEAD" trying to dance with no legs.

anton

10-11-2002, 07:13 PM

What's your purpose on this forum... what did you hope to gain when you joined, an what is your intention when you post? How do you justify spending time posting here?

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-12-2002, 02:54 AM

Brad: That combination would probably work quite well. I'm a proponent of cross training. Perhaps bjj+Baji would be sufficient but if you have the time to do MT, by all means go for it. As long as you're not wasting time doing southern kung fu without self defence value.

Anton: I teach people on this forum. There are many misguided people who do southern kung fu thinking that it has self defence value when clearly these styles do not. It is not surprising that i receive the responses that i do as some have devoted their entire lives to pleasing their sifu. Someone pointing out the truth to them is just too painful. Let me ask you, how many UFC matches have involved southern kung fu. I saw one match where a wing chun guy got plummelled. I've also seen a match where another wingchun guy got taken out by a boxer. Southern Kung fu was practiced by farmers and merchants who do not see much hand to hand combat.

friday

10-12-2002, 03:44 AM

hahahaha :) he got traced and his website was posted b4. he calls himself optimus primo or something silly like that. he looks pretty stupid too.
he just luvs to make fun of all southern styles and claims to be in a wheelchair so he doesn't have to deal with challenges etc. :)
i used to take him half seriously before but after a while u realise he is just a jerk with a lot of time on his hands. i really suggest u guys listen to jon. ignoring him is the best thing to do. hmmm how long has he been on my iggy list for?

Jables

10-12-2002, 07:15 AM

You've just confirmed what I already knew. He's a troll. He's looking for an argument and we've supplied him with one. Had he been a reasonable human being, his viewpoint might change, or at least he might be able to see the effort and merrits of another style other than his. But, since he is nothing close to reasonable, he has his argument and is alone, with his "nurse".

anton:

I think he has proven his purpose on this forum. To spread his bitterness and incite arguments that have no point other than to feed his own bitter ego. He is a sad little man that obviously has nothing better to do than to provoke people.

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-12-2002, 04:59 PM

Tigerhand

"I will come up with something new when you decide to refute my point that I posted several MONTHS ago."

Despite all your name calling, you're still my jester dancing to the tune of my fiddle. Look at you, how can you live with yourself. Got to hand it to you tiger!

Jables, friday:

Your comments don't surprise me as there are many southern kung fu players who can't face the facts even when I had proven their sifus to be inferior infront of the whole class. Of course that was in my younger days when I was actively training. I don't expect every one on this forum to subscribe to my view.

TIger Hand

10-13-2002, 04:14 AM

EGO the "A$$"

Even though your purpose here is to be a total "troll", I still made you look like an intellectual idiot.

I sleep very well at night knowing that. How bout you?

Jables

10-14-2002, 12:11 PM

I still made you look like an intellectual idiot.

That doesn't appear to be a very hard prospect, with all due respect. ;)

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-15-2002, 02:14 AM

TigerHand

"Even though your purpose here is to be a total "troll", I still made you look like an intellectual idiot. sleep very well at night knowing that. How bout you?"

My words mean so much to you that you must wrestle over them ever night before you get a restful sleep. Even if you do succeed in making me look like an idiot, the price you pay by allowing my words to imprison your psyche must be robbing you any sense of victory.

Nonetheless, you do seem to be a dedicated southern kung fu student, but your efforts are alas misguided as southern kung fu is not worth an ounce of human effort.

As for me (to answer your question), you a my jester dancing to my tune for my entertainment. I switch you on and off like a radio. How do you feel about yourself now?

Jables:

I know you're just writing out of ignorance, but I do see your enthuism in kung fu. For your own sake, don't be like tiger hand as I do feel that your like a son to me.

Join me, we can rule the southern kung fu forum as father and son.

anton

10-15-2002, 05:46 AM

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
Your comments don't surprise me as there are many southern kung fu players who can't face the facts even when I had proven their sifus to be inferior infront of the whole class.

Care to give some names?

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
I don't expect every one on this forum to subscribe to my view.

cf

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
I teach people on this forum.

You spend so much time "teaching" people who you do not expect to "learn"? I think not... I think you have nothing better to do then project your sexual frustrations, as well as ones associated with your complete inability to function socially, onto a message board devoted to something in which you have an interest, but no experience... GET A LIFE!!! Did you get picked on at school? Daddy didn't love you enough? Go settle your issues with a proffessional, don't waste webspace doing it. You're most probably just some loser whose only experience with kung fu (Northern or Southern) is a few MA books - maybe you took some classes, but you didn't have what it took to stick with it. Maybe you went to a Southern school and couldn't handle the training... sparring too hard for you? Did the conditioning hurt your arms? ooohhhh poor wittuw baby...

TIger Hand

10-15-2002, 08:05 AM

Ego tha "BUTHEAD"

My response to you takes about 1 min. for me to write, that's is about as complex as your words are to ponder.

The only thing not worth an ounce of effort here is your mother who has to take care of your alleged crippled a$$.

You can pretend to play as though you have control and power, but your analogies are as useless as your legs.

Oh...and thanks for admitting you "MAY" look like an IDIOT.

Freudian slip? buthead or maybe you actually think you do look like an idiot.

Something that makes you go Hmmmm.........?

Crimson Phoenix

10-15-2002, 08:19 AM

Guys...Ego's comments give me rashes as well, and I dont lose time anymore responding to them... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

However, I'm quite uncomfortable with all these comments on his legs...I wish such an accident to no one, including my worst ennemies...it's really getting out of hand, and in a deranging way...I hear Wude called here over and over, it would be time to DISPLAY some...and as far as a general forum go, I see more weight and interest in knowledgeable and/or logic argumentations than personal attacks when it comes to settle who is "closest to the truth".

This was my personal rant, that I guess no one gives a shi@t about. But since it has become the trend here to discuss things ranging from "love affairs of al kinds" to "why my comp freezes" via "I almost got into something that could have end up in a fight", I figured out I too, could rant for once...

anton

10-15-2002, 05:25 PM

Rant away by all means :D

I'd tend to agree with you about the legs comment if I thought there was a reasonable chance of his disabilities being true.

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-16-2002, 05:45 AM

Crimson Pheonix:

It is funny how people can laugh at others physical disabilities. But I don't think they can imagine how it is like to have lost the use of ones legs and suffer from spinal trauma.

Tigerhand:

Oh look at the frustration that you're venting out. Even bringing my mother into the picture as teasing me about my disabilities have not brought you peace of mind. I raise a hypothethical and you wished that was an "I think". My my, you're like an insect ensnared in the web of a spider. Struggle all you like and your psyche will simply become more entangled by my words. Ever minuite of every day, my words eat into you slowly, robbing you of victory and then your very soul.

Every time I critizies your southern hand you come back for more back handed treatment from ego, even though you hate it, you come back again and again.

The music keeps playing my dear jester, so i'll be expecting you to be posting here again. dare to prove me wrong?

Jables

10-16-2002, 09:56 AM

Not only am I new to the forums here, but I am also new to Kung Fu. I've been taking Hung Gar for about 3 months now and I enjoy it greatly, but I was wondering if there were any good books out there on Hung Gar that I might use to supplement my learning. Thanks all for any help you can offer.

That was the original question. I have a Sifu, who I am training diligently with. Is there anyone out there that can give me a few suggestions?

TIger Hand

10-16-2002, 11:31 AM

EGO-

Oh my how you like to play amatuer psychologist, in a desperate attempt to salvage what little image you have left.

Every time I critizie your points and you personally YOU comeback for more. Except your response is as empty as your head.

You must remember, it's not how much you write, but what you write.

JMagnano

10-16-2002, 12:26 PM

Why don't you check out a recent print copy of Kung Fu Qigong magazine. I think two issues ago they had articles on Hung Gar. You may be able to find books advertised in that issue that had the Hung Gar in it. Ask your Sifu to come up with a book list.[

QUOTE]Originally posted by Jables

That was the original question. I have a Sifu, who I am training diligently with. Is there anyone out there that can give me a few suggestions? [/QUOTE]

JMagnano

10-16-2002, 12:28 PM

Why is there so much nastiness and disrespect on this page from Kung Fu people? Everytime I come here someone is insulting someone.

JOE

Originally posted by TIger Hand
EGO-

Oh my how you like to play amatuer psychologist, in a desperate attempt to salvage what little image you have left.

Every time I critizie your points and you personally YOU comeback for more. Except your response is as empty as your head.

You must remember, it's not how much you write, but what you write.

JMagnano

10-16-2002, 12:28 PM

Jables

10-16-2002, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by JMagnano
Why don't you check out a recent print copy of Kung Fu Qigong magazine. I think two issues ago they had articles on Hung Gar. You may be able to find books advertised in that issue that had the Hung Gar in it. Ask your Sifu to come up with a book list.

Thank you JMagnano. I do appreciate it. Do you happen to know what issue number that was?

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-18-2002, 05:27 AM

Anton:

I missed your post the last time I was on the forum. Just to let you know that I have not forgotten your questions and would kindly suggest that you keep a close watch on my posts as more of ego would be revealed. Thank you for your interest.

Tigerhand:

As expected, you could not resist but to reply and had not dared to prove me wrong. To further prove me right, you've begun to adopt my words, my tone and my angle. Soon you'll adopt my views and hate the southern hand that you so charish.

If you're sigongs that had passed away know what you have now become, he'll surely wish you flush his ashes down the loo rather than have then sit in your urn at your school.

I shall leave you to think about this and would ignore you for the time being until I choose to address you again. However, I do expect you to continue to rant, like a jester who carries on dancing when the music has stopped. Look what ego maximus has conditioned you to become!

TIger Hand

10-19-2002, 04:00 AM

As expected, you continue to avoid the problem. Stop dancing around like you are doing ballet. A direct approach is called for here.

The question begs for an answer my dear "BUTHEAD"

Again, as I said time and time again, lots of words that say NOTHING.

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-19-2002, 04:13 PM

JMagnano:

It shocked me too the first time I came on this forum to see all the ill will being generated on the kung fu forum. i've been to other forums but it is the rare occasion that it gets personal.

Why? I think it comes down to the way southern kung fu people train. In the past, southern kung fu people felt oppressed by the superior northern stylist and that's the root of of bitterness and resentment.

Unable to compete against the northern stylists, they turned upon themselves nit picking at the minor details. Some of these schools closed their doors to the outside world. Shutting off the problems that surround them allow these styles / schools to perpetuate the myth of invincibility (great power).

The training the students undergo become very structured. there is no laughter, sadness or emotion in the class - becoming one dimnsional - as though learning kung fu exsit in an alternate universe- a universe without emotion. These students don't know how to relate kung fu to normal everyday life (although if you were to discuss other topics with them, they behave like normal human beings).

As a result these students see kung fu as black or white. It's either you love their syle or hate their style, friend or enemy respectively.

I think this forum is a great medium of revealing the difficiencies in southern kung fu - at least in the training aspects. The problem, many people are not as perceptive as you to see it. Appreciate your good observation.

anton

10-19-2002, 06:34 PM

As I have pointed out, you claim to be here to teach yet you also say that you expect no-one will agree with you. Now we all realise your limited intelligence, but I don't think you're stupid enough to put in considerable effort into futile tasks like teaching people that you know won't learn.

Obviously you're a typical troll who has come here to provoke the very kind of reactions that you are getting. The reaction has nothing to do with the subject matter.

I would expect the same results if I went on a Northern styles board and put down Northern styles in every one of my posts. People would begin to wonder what possible gratification I could be getting from spending so much time and effort on a board dedicated to something for which I obviously have such hate. Unfortunately, in these troubled times, such tragic personality problems give rise to annoyance and not sympathy and advice to seek proffesional councelling. This is the typical reaction trolls of your particular character regularly elicit. You know this as well as I and your previous post in which you disengenuously gave an explanation you know is false, just goes to demonstrate your trollness.

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-23-2002, 07:06 AM

anton,

There are a lot of people on this forum who subscribe to my views and thank me for my honesty in presenting what they conser to be the truth about kung fu.

From time to time tere are others who mistake my posts as trolling but I'm not here to please people as I do not apologise for slapping a few southern stylist out of their slumber. Are you one of them?

As we speak, I am scheduled to challenge a southern stylist HuangKaiVun to a hand to hand match on Jerry Springer. Let him explain to the world and to you why a southern stylist needs to validate his hand against a cripple. and then see I he can deliver what he says.

You may still have a lesson to learn or two.

Helicopter

10-23-2002, 08:00 AM

Ego,
Thankyou for enlightened view, I have trained in Hung Kuen and other southern Chinese fist styles for over 4 years and I am still unable see it as anything but a powerful and highly effective martial art.
I yearn for the day when I will be able to see the truth like you do.

Perhaps after a further 10 years study I shall have an epiphany and will also believe that Tae Kwon do is the only 'true' martial art.

respects,
jpcm

anton

10-23-2002, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
anton,

There are a lot of people on this forum who subscribe to my views and thank me for my honesty in presenting what they conser to be the truth about kung fu.

Name some...

Or are you going to say that they all thank you in private messages, because they are too scared to voice their opinions - nah you wouldn't be silly enough to make up such an obvious lie.

So go on name some...

psycho monk

10-23-2002, 06:18 PM

So ignorant yet so full of spirit , ego you have spent far to much time in that wheel chair , I have done southern kung fu for about 10 years and have destroyed more tkd and kickboxing chaps then you can imagine not to mention all the grapplers i have stepped on using hung gar techniques as well just becuase many martial artist now a days cant tell their ass from their elbow dont judge all of us for others mistakes becuase i love fighting all those mma guys and think ufc is a big joke just like you

TIger Hand

10-24-2002, 03:39 AM

EGO the "BUTHEAD" is actually answering someone (Huang Kai Vin) for once in his miserable life..........?????????

I may still have some faith in you as a human being.....you made some improvements.

BUT, you still didn't answer me yet.........oh well some things never change.

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-24-2002, 07:26 AM

psyco monk,

Which UFC match have you been in to say that it is a big joke? perhaps you have taken part in afew where the joke was on you.

anton,

They have enough courage to admit to their earlier mistakes in training in southern kung fu. That's a lot more credit I can give to people on this forum who use intimidation and victimization tactics as their basis of argument.

Helicopter,

i hope you don't waste 10 years to find out you've wasted your life on a fruitless persuit. Has your sifu has been telling you that you can live 2 live times.

Jables

10-24-2002, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire

They have enough courage to admit to their earlier mistakes in training in southern kung fu. That's a lot more credit I can give to people on this forum who use intimidation and victimization tactics as their basis of argument.

And where is the basis for your argument? Insults and ignorance seem to be the foundation of your argument. It doesn't make for a very sturdy or pleasant foundation.

HuangKaiVun

10-24-2002, 02:53 PM

Ego can't even come up with a representative to fight me - or any of us - in his stead.

In fact, I want him to find those people that think the same stuff that he does. Let them face me - or guys like psycho monk - if they dare. On Springer, no less.

I'd love to see Ego or his so-called buddies whoop Southern kung fu on national TV.

Of course, we all REALLY know that Ego is too afraid to face anyone anywhere.

Besides, anybody dumb enough to believe his evil crap DESERVES the beating he'd bring upon himself.

anton

10-24-2002, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
anton,

They have enough courage to admit to their earlier mistakes in training in southern kung fu. That's a lot more credit I can give to people on this forum who use intimidation and victimization tactics as their basis of argument.

Names please...

If these people you claim thanked you are no more than imaginary friends, this would prove the obvious futility of what you say is your purpose here. That in turn would mean that you are a loser whose idea of fun is to annoy ppl on message boards. That's if these people don't exist... which I (as well as most on this forum are) am inclined to believe.

So prove us wrong... it requires no effort.

Give us some names, or the nicks they use(d) on the forum (that would solve any identity concerns anyone might have)...

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-25-2002, 05:19 AM

Jables:

Absolutely not. My views are supported by thorough research in kung fu and my personal experience in street fighting before the car accident. Whereas, you my boy, have a lot to learn. Your posts betray your ignorance.

HuangKaiVun:

I'm not sending in any buddies. You'll be facing me if you dare front up to the challenge you proposed.

Lets not bring the other members of the forum into the picture and try to take our attention away from the chicken you are.

You've be tardy in your reponse and tried to back out of the match many times. Shape up mister and be a man. Didn't you think a cripple would fight back against your intimidation?

anton:

You disgust me! Who here reveals their e-mail conversations to the public on the web?

needlefist

10-25-2002, 06:43 AM

you guys really aren't getting the best out of Ego, instead, he's getting the worst out of you.

I'm a Southern stylist. Ego says southern KF is Poo. Some of it, some of the time, done by some people, almost certainly is.

I'm not 'Hung-Gar' I just train in it. If someone says that its sh*it, fine that's their opinion. It may be their experience that it is sh*it for all I know. Some Hung-Gar is bad, insofar as its a big style with thousands of practitioners, they aren't all #1 perfect Masters. Every style has its bad or poor performers. Maybe I'm one of them, but then how should I know if I never compare with others, and, if I never test my belief in the style?

Ego is good for southern KF, IF we allow him to draw out our better side, and to discuss openly why what we do is good.

If Hung-Gar and other Southern Kung Fu is as good as we 'believe' (?) it is... then Ego can't change that, and neither can what he says. We can wreck it easily by sounding off like Trolls ourselves.

Some here have been manipulated into attcking someone who cliams a disability. Its good that other disabled martial artists don't jump down their throats as if they were being attacked personally. A disabled person is first and foremost a person and disabled second. Same with Kung-Fu, a Hung-Gar man is a man first and a specific style practitioner second.

I reckon on real experince that Hung-Gar is a good system, but good systems need good practitioners. Its more important to have good students than to have good teachers. A good student can make the very best of what they get, and even exceed their (bad) teachers limitations. A bad student will screw up even the best of teachers. A style can degrade within the span of a single teaching generation.

So, maybe Ego has a gripe with Southern kung-Fu, maybe he's just having a laugh, maybe... he can even teach you something. If he's a 'bad' teacher, then as a 'good student' you guys can learn from him. beyond his limitations (whatever they may be). One way to do that is to do what he isn't doing, examine your own style, test it out critically.

Then maybe Ego's criticisms won't hurt so much that you have to lash out back. He can be left to learn his own lesson, from himself

Helicopter

10-25-2002, 07:13 AM

Ingorance is the root of all predujice and should always be challenged.

needlefist

10-25-2002, 09:56 AM

I agree. What kind of prejudice specifically? Against disabled people, against Southern Kung-Fu? or what?

What does 'challenged' in this sense mean to you?

Jables

10-25-2002, 11:11 AM

Then maybe Ego's criticisms won't hurt so much that you have to lash out back.

First off, his criticisms never hurt me personally. As you said, I am not 'Hung Gar', I just train in it. The only thing that bothered me was, his complete lack of respect, his lack of information, and his lack of proof. Beyond the fact that he took the thread that I started and hijacked it, for his own musings. With that, he had help, I know that. I also know that this thread wasn't "mine", but that he took it from it's original point and twisted it into something else that bothered me. I am looking for more information on Hung Gar, not on the cracked musings of an ignorant person. That is why I lash out at him. He has provided me with no useful information. He has proved himself worthless, though he would say otherwise. He has proven himself to be a coward, playing the elitist game that children play.

The only thing I can give him credit for, is strengthening my resolve to stay in southern styles. For that, Ego, I thank you.

He can be left to learn his own lesson, from himself

How can a man who "knows everything" (As Ego seems to claim) learn anything?

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-26-2002, 07:35 AM

I fully agree that critizms should be handeled constructively. Take for example Jabes, he has taken my comments for consideration and has decided to stay with his southern style.

Although he appears ignorant because he is a beginner he has been open minded to descenting views and had applied them to broaden his horizon.

TIger Hand

10-26-2002, 08:06 PM

Too bad you can't take anyone else's comments for consideration.

You seem to only consider those that agree with you.

Oh, boy what an ignorant inbred.

cha kuen

10-26-2002, 08:24 PM

Why would someone consider a total stranger's view when he hasn't even met and touched hands or workout?

Unless that person is expereince, which this person is not, then it's pointless.

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-27-2002, 05:04 AM

Cha Kuen

I guess its because everyone has their own personal motives. Taking this to an extreme, some individual would go to great lenghts to cross hands with others, such as appearing on national television.

We have all sorts of personalities on this forum. deal with it!

Jabb

10-27-2002, 09:08 AM

Ego_Extrodinaire, how about CLF, does it suck as bad as Hung Gar in your opinion(not in my opinion tho)? If so, please tell me why, because I'm going to start CLF soon.

Btw. I'm a newbie on kung fu and on these forums and I want to say 'hi all' :)

HuangKaiVun

10-27-2002, 08:31 PM

Ego thinks ALL Southern Chinese kung fu - including Choy Li Fut - SUCKS.

Of course, I am still waiting to face him - or anybody who's dumb enough to fight me under his banner.

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-28-2002, 05:08 AM

Jabb,

CLF teaches basic techniques which if practiced long enough and hard enough may be sufficient for basic self defence for a limited range of circumstances.

HuangKaiVun,

As I had written on the post "HuangKaiVun on Jerry Springer", all you'll need to do to front up to your own challenge is book in a time slot on that program.

Jerry would surely slot you in, right after your sparring practice with your wooden dummy and right before your dysfunctional relationship with your blow-up-dummy who you call Bridgette.

Until then, you'll continue to chicken dance around your challenges. Very active for a little Taiwanese guy of 5'4", I never knew Taiwanese come in such midgit packages. Must have been smuggled illigally in a container from Mexico or something to do cleaning duties in the Arizona.

TIger Hand

10-28-2002, 05:46 AM

Jabb-

Since you are new let me fill you in on our dear "BUTHEAD" friend Ego.

He thinks all southern KF sucks and comes from farmers. Which isn't true.

He thinks all northern KF was used and developed by the military, in his words,..as "force multipliers", which isn't true either.

And since it was used by the military, therefore it must be great, so he reasons. Which also isn't true.

And when you point out some basic facts that collapses his warped theory.......he won't answer you.

He will just continue babbling the same moronic points or change the subject.

Watch you will see Jabb........

Jabb

10-28-2002, 06:24 AM

Ego, you do know that CLF has been effected by northern shaolin kung fu? Chen Heung studied shaolin for like 12 years and 8 years of hung ga.

I don't want to get any enemies but I don't think that any southern kung fu sucks. Like said before, speed is about timing, and timing is invividual, so it depends who are fighting, not the style they are fighting on, and you shouldn't be a slave of your style or technique, improvise, you have 2 hands and 2 legs.

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-30-2002, 05:42 AM

Jabb,

I agree, there is northern influence in clf. But what clf has taken in is very very basic. And I also agree with you that speed timing strength etc matters also depends on how hard one trains or if that person was sick, injured, old etc during a match.

But having said that I have a southern kung fu instructor who has challenged to spar me. He is a fit and able person whereas I am a cripple. Why to test his southern kung fu against what the northern can do. Surely he must be thinking that my kung fu can make up the diffence of not being able to use my legs and having suffered spinal trauma.

He asked me to challenge his, not you, not Tiger Hand or anyone else on this forum who would not be fighting under my banner. Those were his own words. Does this clear things up for you.

Jables

10-30-2002, 07:09 AM

Since you are obviously an expert. How far did you get in your Kung Fu/TKD/(other MA?) training before your accident? I'm curious, as it would help me to understand what your knowledge is before you became, as you have called yourself, a cripple.

TIger Hand

10-30-2002, 03:08 PM

Haha......

Jabb-

See what I mean.......by moronic?

Now he bases his opinion of why northern KF is superior to southern because of what "one alleged" expert in southern KF said to him.

And on top of that, if you read what the ego said, he is only assuming what the "alleged" person thought.

Jabb

10-31-2002, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by TIger Hand
Haha......

Jabb-

See what I mean.......by moronic?

Now he bases his opinion of why northern KF is superior to southern because of what "one alleged" expert in southern KF said to him.

And on top of that, if you read what the ego said, he is only assuming what the "alleged" person thought.
Well, dunno about moronic but I don't agree with him, I think southern kung fu can beat northern kung fu, and hes always changing his stand why does southern kung fu suck... weird :rolleyes:

Ego_Extrodinaire

10-31-2002, 06:08 AM

Jabb,

There are alot of places that call themselves northern kung fu but its really new age relaxation theraphy. Its hard to find proper northern kung fu these days. Try look up some instructors of Baji, Pigua or mantis from taiwan. Usually their methods are the realt deal. Southern kung fu won't stand a chance.

Helicopter

10-31-2002, 03:49 PM

Oh yeah,

Well there are Southern masters living in the wilds of Hainan island that could take all of your Taiwan masters without even getting out of their chair. Besides doing Northern Kung fu makes you smell funny.

My Dad's car is like way newer than your Dad's.

Jabb

11-01-2002, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by Helicopter
Oh yeah,

"Besides doing Northern Kung fu makes you smell funny."

LOL :D :D

TIger Hand

11-03-2002, 05:19 AM

Jabb-

Did I say anything about Ego that hasn't come true so far?

He can be read like a childrens fairy tale.

See how he just babbles the same crap over and over.

He hasn't change the subject yet, though

HuangKaiVun

11-03-2002, 01:25 PM

Nor will he face me - nor send anybody to fight him in proxy.

I'll wait all my life and STILL he won't dare test my Southern Hands.

I personally would love to meet these alleged Taiwanese guys who could kick ANY Southern butt - and test their hands. I'm a Taiwanese guy myself, and I'd love for Ego to bring a guy like that to my doorstep to fight me. I'd put BOTH OF THEM in their place for being so utterly disrespectful of fellow martial artists.

For the record, no Taiwanese sifu worth his rice would dare believe what Ego does. Ego could go to Taiwan personally and not find a guy who'd agree with him.

A real sifu of Northern methods would not dare make the assertion that all Southern kung fu sucks . . . he'd just get beaten down by fellow Taiwanese guys like ME.

A wheelchair does not spare a person from having to walk the talk. Now Ego is prepared to take on not just me, but the entirety of the Southern kung fu world.

Go ahead, Ego. Find me somebody - preferably one of those imaginary Taiwanese masters you speak of - if you won't face me yourself.

Then we'll see if you're right or not.

Ego_Extrodinaire

11-04-2002, 06:51 AM

HuangKaiVun:

On the contrary, I admire your courage and persistence for being the only one daring to challenge me. Obviously you have great respect for my skills even in a physical disabled state.

But if only you would back up your talk and actually front out to your own challenge. All you have to do is pick up the phone, ask for Jerry and acknowledge that you'll appear on national tv at a time of your choosing.

But you haven't done that, but rather do that chicken dance. those Northern Masters probably take pity on a 4'5" midgit. You must be the smallest that taiwanese people come. Didn't you grow up and did you also miss puberty?