Slightly unique thread on Self-Def.

[Former castleva]

Question goes like "would you use generally "abusive" thug techniques for protection?"
That probably needs some more explanation...
Martial artists are taught scientifically correct techniques which have been tested and are tested.Not to mention they have been created by veterans.
Then how about common techniques that we learn defenses against? Let´s see what comes up...
basic punches kicks
clothing and body grabs
"hugs" holds,locks,chokes
etc.
Then let´s put that in detail:
fist strike to head area,hair pull,bear hug(s),choke holds (frontal two handed,forearm from rear...),sort of a front kick or related to mid-section etc.,wrist grabs,chest&lapel grabs,list goes on...
These are some of the basic offense tactics being used,many of them are covered and well learned to destroy at basic levels.
Then goes the question again,would you use them to defend yourself? (for some reason)
Instead of an advanced chin-na grab or dim mak shot...would you?
If the answer is even part "yes",could you explain why?

:)

[Royal Dragon]

Street thug techniques leave you too open for counters.

I'd rather jam, punch, lock and throw.

Before my back blew out, I often had great sucsess with high kicks so long as I used good set up as you can hurt your opponent wile being in a relatively safe zone yourself.

I use the same strategy now, only I tightened the thinking up a bit so I can use my hands more due to the fact that I just can't fire those missle like high kicks anymore.

[BeiKongHui]

I think that's why kung fu guys in the past were better than those now. They didn't throw out the things they learned getting in fights while growing up.
I like to use what I call the "hockey trap" which is to pull a shirt or jacket over the opponents face and start punching like crazy. I also like to spit in peoples faces becuase I discovered as a youth this could buy you a valuable second or two. A few other things I do is use my chin to the eye or other sensitive spot, hair/ body hair grabs, muscle/flab grab, grab someones tallywacker through their pants and pull (yes I know it's gross but d@mn it works!)

[red5angel]

Sure, but the point in training is that I dont have to revert to uncontrolled thug like moves...hopefully I train hard enough that I can use a wider range of effective moves then just the classics. Its about control really, you want as much control over a situation that is hard enough to control. With the wild street fighting stuff, it may work but training in an organized way of fighting increases your odds.......

[BeiKongHui]

If you knew Wing Chun like you claim too you'd be able to use the WCK platform to launch these techniques so there would be no wildness to them. You give Wing Chun a bad name my friend.

[Asia]

I tend to use whatever gets me out of a tight spot. If PULLING YOUR EAR (GOD FORBID YOU WEAR AN EARRING!) works to subdue you I will do it. I highly discourage biting, for obviousl health reasons, but if it will save your tail then chomp away.

Clothing graps are actually VERY useful and are taught in many arts to use against your opponent. Also there is one basic rule with my guys that train, "What is brought into randori CAN and WILL be used against you!" One of my soldiers illustrated this by pulling my hood over my head during a barracks session! (I really shouldn't have hurt him the way I did but that was annoying!)

[red5angel]

BeiKongHui - are you talking to me? make soe sense first and reread the post and my reply. all of those tactics are viable tactics, as I said, and I would use them if needed, as I said, but wingchun itself is also a thorough and imho complete combat system so I choose to use it. Try asking for some clarification first if you are confused. If you had been paying attention what I said was that by studying a (formal) system of combat you can learn control, AND use these tecniques if recquired. But thank you for playing please come again.

[joy chaudhuri]

BeiKongHui
If you knew Wing Chun like you claim too you'd be able to use the WCK platform to launch these techniques so there would be no wildness to them. You give Wing Chun a bad name my friend-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Fer sure. Its embarrassing to see someone with 7-8 months
long distance instruction(lives in Minneapolis- sifu in Cleveland) in wing chun to be pontificating on the art. He has embarrassed folks in his own "lineage".

[Mr Punch]

I must admit, I find the head-butt beautifully suited to close-in centreline work (at least I hope it's the centre!!), and practise controlling it pretty well every class, so I don't run out of brothers or wear their teeth home in my dome! :D

[rogue]

Daammit, I clicked the Wing Chun Forum link again.:p




Joy, doing a little stalking?;)

[Former castleva]

A fistful of thanks guys.
Royaldragon,
"Street thug techniques leave you too open for counters. "
I could not agree more.
There lies the possibility that these techniques could come in handy somewhere/how/way,as Bruce Lee noticed "use whatever works for the situation".
But oh well,you do have actual techniques too? Why hesitate.



:)

[NPMantis]

These are essential to know, in any street fight you can't be noble, it's more important to get out with you ass intact. In mantis all the dirty tricks come as standard in the syllabus which is quite useful.

[respectmankind]

just looking at the new logos.

[Former castleva]

Thanks again.
NPmantis,yeah,I can see that,there somewhere...
That´s a good point too,sure we should not be pushed to think that only good technique to pull of is a backflip followed with jumping backroundhouse kick to head.
;)

[red5angel]

Joy, changing your sign on name so I can see your post again? I liked yuanfen better, he had something important to say:

"This person has been put on your ignore list" Was my favorite line!

As for good wingchun Joy, Why dont you post your web page for everyone to see your Great Wing Chun? How hard you MUST be working at it and how GOOD it looks with your solid structure and connectedness? What happened to straightening the spine? or getting the elbows in? I'd put my 7-8 months against your 25 years or whatever any day, because rememeber, I have BEEN to your class and knows what goes on there. If I were you however I would stick with the whole memory-slipping-as-I-get-older-routine, since you "vaguely"recall that time.
LOL! I thought people who wantd websites would be posting the best of what they have? Lets hope not huh Joy?

[BeiKongHui]

You know kid, you owe JC some respect if for nothing else than the fact he has been doing WC for 25 years. The way you are going you won't make it for 2 before Carl kicks you out for your shi!!y attitude and the negative publicity you've given him.

[Ford Prefect]

Street thugs are good at what they do and beat many "trained" fighters. I don't think it is the simplicity of their techniques that make them sucessful though. It is their mind set. They are familiar with street fights and are confident that they are the predator. This also means that they are familiar with handling the adrenal dump that occurs when one is thrust into a violent situation.

Most people will freeze up and not only lose fine motor skill, but they will also see their calm, rational mind fly out the window when adrenaline seriously starts flowing. The more familiar you are with this dump, the better your chances are of survival.

[red5angel]

BKH- first of all I am not your kid, and talking tough or talking down doesnt mean sh!t to me on the internet. In two years my freind we will see wont we. I wouldnt worry abou tit if I were you, I would be getting together with Joy to learn some "real" wingchun. I dont owe him crap, you can do 25 years of anything but in my opinion if you arent doing it right then why bother?.


Ford Prefect - I think you have hit one something. unlike internet thugs, guys who like to fight on the street have a "killer" attitude. they arent afraid of pain and are confident in their ability to deliver the goods. To WIN a fight, sometimes all it takes is spirit.
Drilling very precisely and over and over again is a good way to get yourself past fight or flight reactions. I drilled endlessly in the Marine Corp and when I hear dthat first bullet in Somalia, I was ducked, covered, and ready to go before I knew what was going on.

[yuanfen]

As for good wingchun Joy, Why dont you post your web page for everyone to see your Great Wing Chun? How hard you MUST be working at it and how GOOD it looks with your solid structure and connectedness? What happened to straightening the spine? or getting the elbows in? I'd put my 7-8 months against your 25 years or whatever any day, because rememeber, I have BEEN to your class and knows what goes on there
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the list:
1.A web page is a public thing. Mine has always been at
<www.azwingchun.com>
2. Jason aka red5angel participated in one class of mine where he didnt have a clue about wing chun including whata previous teachers background was. What time I gave to him during sil lim tao involved trying to unsuccessfully unfreeze his stiff hand in trying to do a basic tan sao. He stood in a corner and didnt have a clue on the art. He later kept on asking me for several months for advice by email on
how and where to study wing chun on Minneapolis. finally for the lat 7+ months he is associated with a study group that is associated with one of Kenneth Chung's students in Cleveland and
has started pontificationg on wing chun on various net places since then.. Jason has
not met Kenneth Chung and numerous students of Chung have expressed their embarrassment at Jason's posts.
Now that I have contradicted some of red5's pontifications he has chosen to disparage the messenger rather than taking to heart a considerable accumulation of advice given to him by many competemt folks from quite different lines on the wing chun list and elsewhere..
3. As far as putting up his wing chun against competent experienced wing chun folks- he has his dreams- actually many of them. Reality is a quite different thing. Tough talking and understanding kung fu are quite different things IMO.
4. Ignorant folks often dont understand what is in front of them and can try to reduce things to their own level of incompetence....
specially in understanding a major sytem of kung fu.It is preumptuous for a 7 month student to comment incisively on any
martial art.
5. There are now quite a few nice wing chun web pages for referrals or linkages or articles on wing chun...for beginning wing chun or other curious folks.. They include
david Williams' Planet Wing Chun, Rene Ritchies wing chun kuen
com, Lucas' Wing Chun world.
6. On lists like this one which allows anonymity some cheap shots show up.. I write in defense of the art- it should not be judged by its least knowledgeable exponents.

No need to respond...or atleast- I have spoken my piece and prefer to let it go at that. Cheers and bye for now. I know red5 will compulsively post again--judge for yourself and good luck in your own kung fu development and have fun if you can.
Yuanfen/Joy Chaudhuri :Tempe Wing Chun Gung Fu.