What hand techniques?

[apoweyn]

When you're sparring, what hand techniques and tactics do you use?

The answer could be as simple as 'backfist.' But if you've got something more detailed (e.g., open up with jabs to cover my entry, then switch to hooks and uppercuts), by all means, let's hear it.


Stuart B.

[SevenStar]

jabs to enter and retreat. straight right for power if I see my jab is landing often, or if I see an opening. once I can get inside, hooks to the head and body, with an uppercut or two for good measure.

[Tvebak]

Fingercut to the eyes is my favorite tech, also backfist, and openhand hooks, and direct openhand punches to the face to disturb the vision.

[PHILBERT]

Advancing step; step at a 45 degree angle, then again in the opposite at a 45 degree angle

or

zig-zag; step at a 45 degree angle but don't step the second time

Move forward with chain punches, then if I get in close, start using elbows

[apoweyn]

So SevenStar likes to box. Me too.

Tvebak, what is an open-hand punch? A palm strike sorta thing?

[No_Know]

Wait. One punch. Deflect. Repeat as necessary.

[SevenStar]

No_Know, why wait for him to strike you?

[No_Know]

Until it happens no one's successfully tried to hurt anyone. -ish. I usually have no cause to strike anyone. So I would wait to see if there's cause on my part to be significant. If person attacks I evade. If it seems not friendly (And I calculate risk to me and those in the area and outside the area--if the possible reprocussions get that big, every possible~ moment recalculating) I go for the disable--reason, intimidation or more.

If I go to attack I become vulnerable. I wait because If I have cause to hit. I can only then best see person's intent! Which indicates scale of my doing stuff and the directions I should go.

If I can't evade I stay near and deflect. Hand techniques as appropriate. Hopefully :~>

[fa_jing]

You seem to be discussing strikes. Defensively, I use the various "sao's" our blocks, 80% of which translate fine with gloves. Offensively, I like straight vertical fist punches from either hand, sometimes a low flat-fister to the body with a stance sink, occasional hooks, uppercuts and body shots from in close. I like to throw combos. "transferring" and the "running hand" are other favorite tactics. One punch that my sifu uses to great effectiveness against me is the whipping punch, it's a little like a downward angled backfist but much more powerful since it is set up off of our bon sao, giving it a shoulder-rotation energy and sinking the stance.

-FJ

[Xebsball]

Pi and Beng Quan

[apoweyn]

Good grief. It's like pulling flipping teeth.

Assume for a moment that I have no idea what that means, Xebsball. Something and something fist.


Stuart B.

[count]

It's a good topic ap, only difficult to see without knowing terms and principles. Especially since Chinese words mean different things to different people. My answer would be dissolving and diverting. In bagua we have 8 mother palms/fists/elbows/... In most Chinese styles there is no offense and defense persey. Defense becomes offense etc. etc. In bagua we make use of hidden hand to create openings. Strikes become grabs and turn into throws. Finger strikes become palms become fists than elbows, than shoulders etc. The main thing is continuos change and absolutely no set patterns. I could say that a hawk fist is an uppercut and Monkey fists can be jabs, but I won't. :)

[apoweyn]

I might like the answer too if I had any earthly idea what it meant. Meantime, it's a bit like sitting here trying to figure out what kind of complete berk would try to clap using just one hand.

:)

As for my part, I favour a lot of tapi tapi and siko.

...

Oh right. I tend to catch and parry until I can follow something in, trap (okay, let's be honest: smother), and elbow.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

p.s. by some odd coincidence, 'monkey fists' was my nickname in high school.

...

i can't back that up.

[count]

So that explains your avatar.:p I know Pi is splitting I have felt Beng too, but I'll actually leave the explainations to the Hsing-I guys.:)

[apoweyn]

I'm not sure that anything could explain my avatar. I'm just chalking it up to my own fevered imagination.

:)

[PLCrane]

Beng is like a short downward block, with forearm about parallel to the ground, with a close-up vertical fist punch with the other hand. There's a little more to it than that (like the rest of your body), but that should give you the basic idea.

[Xebsball]

apoweyn

Sorry maybe i shoulda have explained better :D

Pi and Beng are 2 of the 5 elements (or fists if you will) used in Xingyi. You can think of them as 5 diferent types of forces to be used, each one causing a diferent effect on your oponent.

So Pi is the splitting, cutting force while Beng is the crushing, smashing force.
In truth they are not really "hand techinques" cos this forces can be expressed with various parts of the body, elbows, knees, etc.

But if you want the classical demonstration of these explained in a very simple way, then Pi is shown mostly as a palm strike while Beng is a vertical punch.

http://emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/ken/beng01.html
http://emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/splitting/bengforce.html
http://emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/ken/pi01.html
http://emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/splitting/piforce.html

At the first pic here you can see Marcello Teixeira, my teacher's teacher doing Pi with the closed fist shape, wich exemplifies that Pi is not really a palm technique.

http://www.xingyitchuen.com.br/english/cincoele.html

BTW, dont worry if your avatar cant be explained, cos my nickname cant be explained either.

[count]

Kind of what I was saying about bagua too. Say Xebsball, I noticed that Bruno Lima Roch made his first post on the internal board today. Is he a class mate or your teacher?

[Xebsball]

count, Bruno is my teacher.

[count]

I know I could see at Empty flower, and I'm just guessing based on bagua. Is Beng wood and Pi water? Just curious.

[rogue]

p.s. by some odd coincidence, 'monkey fists' was my nickname in high school. Didn't the 'monkey fists' incident also get you banned from the Washington Zoo?


I thought about the question and realized I kick more than I thought. But... Left jab, Left jab, left sword hand to the left side of their neck or head.

[Xebsball]

yeah Beng is wood, Pi is metal though.
Zhuan is water, Pao is fire and Heng is earth.

[Helicopter]

Generally -simultaneous blocks and strikes.

Specific favorites.

Crane Hook attackers hand down and Crane's Neck (wrist) strike to the eye-orbit (same hand).

Double punch attack, opponent will normally block one hand but not both.

I always grab an opponents wrist if the opportunity arises.

[NPMantis]

I like trapping a lot, if someone throws a punch I grab their wrist and punch with the other hand while pulling them into me thought I also punch with the same hand, or do a takedown, etc.

I also like blocking down with my elbow and coming up with a punch with the same same and simply deflecting the hand and coming striahgt inot the throat with a palm strike.

[neptunesfall]

the techs i practice/use the most would be...

yin chops: for clearing away hands or to strike the neck

hammerfists: downward and upward, for smashing through/away defenses or smashing down on shoulders/head/face/whatever

a chop technique that comes straight up the centerline and whips the edge of the hand outwards, dunno the name for this one

elbow

and the various strikes associated with throws; mostly palm, elbow and inside/outer forearms.

[apoweyn]

PLCrane,

I think I get the idea. Thanks for the explanation. :)


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Xebsball,

No worries. That was an excellent explanation. I appreciate it.


Stuart B.

p.s. Yeah, I've puzzled more than a few people with my screen name too. :)

[apoweyn]

Rogue,

Thanks pal. I've just sprayed toast bits all over my desk. LOL

The comment about kicking more than you realized is part of what prompted this question in the first place. I asked, months ago, how people use their kicking and it struck me that I hadn't asked about the hands.

It occured to me that while I use hands a hell of a lot more than I used to, I'm still pretty heavy on the kicking myself.


Stuart B.

[count]

That's interesting. Beng reminds me of our dragon or Ch'en trigram energy. That IS wood element. But Pi reminds me more of snake or Kan trigram which is water element. Maybe a bit like pheonix which is wood element also. In bagua, like hsing-i the hand doesn't matter much. Could be open or closed. But the energy of a dragon strike is out and rising. Could you describe a bit about Zhaung, Pao and Heng?

[Xebsball]

You see im a newbie, i only know Pi and Beng :D although i do a opening with water before doing Pi.
I could try to describe but it but you can find better ones on sites.
Water rising and spiraling, like for example an uppercut, but spiraling during the movement, not straight like a boxers.
Fire is the cannon fist, its a simulaneous block with one hand and punch with the other while charging forward at the oponents attack.
Heng is crossing, it have the power of a ball rolling but this is the one i know the least of.

On this links you can see a small gif file showing the moves

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/splitting/hengquan.html
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/splitting/paoquan.html
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/splitting/bengquan.html
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/splitting/zuanquan.html
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/splitting/piquan.html

[count]

Man, Dave sure does do nice work.;)

[Qi dup]

Well, I'm nothing special, but this is how I usually start out. I take a step in and fake a right lead (I'm left handed). I fake quickly then take a quick step to the side and take a shot with my left hand to the ribs. The idea is that the fake right will draw there block or a flinch and I come aroudn with a shot to the ribs with my left hand. The blow to the ribs sometimes brings there arm down out of instinct to protect the ribs from another blow. if this is the case I will quickly throw a left to the side of the head and then finish off with the right to the head.

I like this thread, always interesting to think about how different peopel will attack.

[yenhoi]

I prefer not to box, so Ill throw a punches long enough to gain entry, and move in. My hands are always pulling and bumping into the other guys hands. I like to trap, hit, takedown and finish. I dont like fighting from long range. Big sidekicks and other **** hurt.

Recently been getting very intrested in FMA gunte(entry) and 'mouse' techniques - Im starting to appreciate hurting the biceps and triceps (and other stuff.) When we sparr we allow these techniques, they work :(

Double jab, trap, elbow. :eek:

[apoweyn]

as an FMA practitioner myself, i was thoroughly amused with the guntings as well.

i was sparring a kickboxer once who kept defending my jab with a quick, abbreviated out-to-in block. he kept 'tapping' the side of my wrist with the bones of his forearm.

after a while, i asked him whether he was doing that on purpose. of course, he was. and it worked like a charm. obviously, it's not a knockout. but it sure as hell made me think twice about jabbing him. and that just made me into a sitting duck.


stuart b.

p.s. i don't even remember starting this thread. but evidently, i did. [shrug] good times.

[Qi dup]

That's good stuff Stumblefist. Your right about faking. As far as the hit to the ribs the best thing I can do is keep moving. A lot of times, I put to much comitment in my swings and it gets my head rattled. So I can keep moving and try to exploit people who are acustom to fighting in straight lines. You bring up a good point about experiance. If my fake is to far out of range or just doesn't look good most people won't bite. Or if they are experianced they will just watch me fake and meet my gut with there fist. If i'm fast and i'm ziggin and zaggin It usually works on an average person. If the person isa fighter and don't fall for it, I better fall back and get ready:)


"Call me Ishmael."

[African Tiger]

Simple enough: JKD straight blast. But I use mine in defense only. I wait for some jacka.ss to throw his crap first, then I sidestep him and parry the punch, trap KABAAAAM! Straight blast to the jaw - end of fight.

This is all because the 60 mph round kick has lost a few mph's over the years...:(

[TaoBoy]

Lap sau (hooking hand), pak sau (palm heel strike), straight palm strike, side cutting fist, pounding fist, straight fist...

Egad, I could go on - it really depends on what my opponent throws and how I move etc...

Good question Ap.

[apoweyn]

cheers taoboy.


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

It's called a parry Stumble. Instead of the glove, this fellow was using his forearm to Ap's wrist. That's all.

This is what happens when you spar--your jab sometimes doesn't land:eek:

[apoweyn]

stumblefist,


Originally posted by Stumblefist
"i was sparring a kickboxer once who kept defending my jab with a quick, abbreviated out-to-in block. he kept 'tapping' the side of my wrist with the bones of his forearm." - apoweyn
..
apoweyn: I don't think that is quite a real situation.

well, i appreciate your giving me the benefit of the doubt. [sigh]


The question is how where you sparring? wearing gloves? No contact? If a case like thaat then the Kboxer is being allowed to mke contact while you are not. That is not real. The question is: Why were you jabbing to no effect? If you should penetrate then you should bloody his face if not then you get the aarmbone tap.
Quid Pro Quo.

boxing gloves, medium to heavy contact. you discounted one thing in your evaluation. the guy's a good kickboxer. and like most good fighters, he's come up with a tactic or two to avoid eating jabs.

in this case, he was slipping his head one way and parrying my hand off the opposite way, which is a pretty effective counter vs. a straight punch. and once he pulled it off a couple of times, my jab got more tentative, making the maneuver even easier for him to land a couple times more. after that, i stopped jabbing. that detracted from my ability to set the rhythm, range, etc. and things got ugly.


What you were doing is counter-productive to learning to fight if you are not allowed to use the jab and he is allowed to use such a punishing defense. So of course if leaves you without your weapons.
This is an issue generally applied to other techniques. If one pulls one's punches or kicks or throws and the other side takes advantage of this, it is not real. Someone is just bullying a social situation. Sometimes you have someone who takes advantage of the "ruless" to damge you in some way. Sometimes admonition just doesn't work and i have been forced to kick them down.

this whole paragraph might very well be true if your first assumption had been. but it wasn't. so all i can really do here is nod in agreement.


What is "gunte(entry) and 'mouse' techniques" . since seeing Matt in "The Bourne Identity" i learned about and appreciate Kali now. It seems quite practical.

i've most often seen it written as 'gunting.' but it may get translated several different ways. literally, it means 'scissors.' referring to a motion where you parry across your body with one hand and strike the offending limb with the other hand, so that your own limbs sort of cross in a scissoring motion. generally, though, it's used to describe defensive attacks to an opponent's limb. parry a punch and backfist the tricep. elbow the opponent's knuckles. etc.

'mouse', i'm not familiar with.


stuart b.

[yenhoi]

gunte is entering technique or principle even, just like ap described.

mouse is the same thing, except its with your elbow to his bicep or tricep. Maybe its just a nickname, I dunno. :D

Its all about taking out HIS weapons and tools, defanging the snake so-to-speak. Another cool one at long range even is to catch someones punch and ram it into your incoming elbow.

[apoweyn]

that's probably my favorite one, actually. :)

[apoweyn]

Ap, actually my analysis was speculative hypothesis, not assuming anything.

ah. well, speculative hypotheses generally involve the word 'if', if i'm not very much mistaken. 'if X, then Y.' that sort of thing. your's, however, opened with "i don't think this is quite real." a statement of conviction based on a conception of what happened. an assumption. followed by several paragraphs of analysis based on that assumption.

it's not a federal case, stumblefist. it just would've made more sense to ask the format before asserting that it wasn't real. sounds far less dismissive that way.

semantics and protocol aside, what have we here...


That's why my terms are broad, for instance as to why i said "to no effect", to me "effect" means to have a desired conclusion to a series of movements, which could mean finishing the fight or being successful in some new combination of movements.... or where the partners recognize such success: as you don't finish a throw or move, just show it's there or realize you were wide open to a full blow... and you start again.. and my preferred start is a close ready situation.

well, that was part of the problem. but it wasn't, as you asserted, a problem with the sparring format. only with my own performance. tommy was intimidating to me. and my offense wasn't committed enough as a result. i didn't advance on my footwork and i wasn't aggressive.

tommy knew i was afraid of closing with him. so he played on that. my 'advantage' was that i had long limbs. so i used a jab to try and keep him at bay. rather than try and get past the jab, he kept damaging it. so the jabs slowed down and eventually stopped altogether. the wall came down. and he walked in. after that, i couldn't backpedal fast enough to avoid him closing on me. good tactics, really.


From your answer, now i understand the situation clearly but it seems some of my speculation was correct.
This might provoke some discussion as to what kinds of sparring are conducive to helping real fighting and what might be counterproductive. Or what in sparring is pro and con for preparation. And what is unreal or even unfair.

your speculation attributed the situation to a sparring format, again. not to me personally. it suggested that i was put at a disadvantage because of my acquiescence to an unfair ruleset. and that's not the case.

i was put at a disadvantage by two things: 1) my own limitations and 2) tommy's capitalization upon those limitations. tommy detected my hesitance, then gave me even more reason to be hesitant. after that, he was calling the shots. he decided on the timing, the distance, and the rhythm of the match. it was a good tactic, well executed. would it work today, when i'm far less intimidated by closing and mixing it up? nope. i don't think it would. but it does illustrate precisely what it was intended to illustrate: a valid and effective use of a gunting-type attack.

sparring is a laboratory. things don't have to go the way you expect. you just have to come away from it with more information than you had before you went in.

the information gathered from that sparring session (and many others like it) was that distance wasn't the friend i thought it was. keeping a person at bay like that smacks of desperation. and eventually the defense fails and the opponent gets in. nowadays, i feel much safer in close.

that's a lesson i wouldn't have learned if it were indeed the rules that had made that situation. but it was a facet of my own behavior that caused it. that's what made the lesson pertinent and universal.


I don't like the idea of sparring in keeping distance and trading blows. I also don't like the idea of sparring as spending 20 min or an hour trading blows with gloves to see who comes out the most bruised. That leads to a sport idea. Try to damage your partner instead of try to develop your technique.

damaging your partner is the technique, to a degree though. i'll agree with you that maintaining an understood (either unconsciously or consciously) range isn't a great thing. but the gloves have very little to do with the practice of slugging on one another for 20 minutes. that's a question of bad tactics, plain and simple.


Each series of movements must have a conclusion. But it's all a gradient learning process, a person might be developing the ability to make jabs, to make combinations, or to use jabs to make a follow up attack or close in, or as a beginning to end the fight in the quickest possible manner.

agreed. and that was my precise shortcoming. no confidence --> no intent. no intent --> i got mauled by someone with intent and the tools to back that intent up.

but none of that was a function of the gloves or the sparring format. indeed, the gloves and format were ideal. i just didn't have the personal tools to get done what i needed to get done.


If i reach a point where i am certain of the conclusion, it doesn't matter to me who else knows it. Also, finishing contact is not always necessary.

okay, back up. are you advocating less contact? or more? finishing contact isn't always necessary, no. but the threat of actual physical damage does bring variables in that aren't there otherwise. in the match with tommy, i lost because i was afraid. not afraid of getting tagged or embarrassed or beaten on points. but afraid of getting hurt.


If a partner spars in an unfair way, such as refusing to block and taking advantage of your exposure or damaging your limbs when you are doing no contact you can up the ante and make contact. Or you can just eat bitter and use the experience to improve your defense and just act as if "gee i must have missed!"

here comes that 'speculation' again. there was nothing unfair about it. i was allowed to punch tommy in the face. he was practically begging me to. (tommy was genuinelly interested in helping me, after all.) but he wasn't going to give me anything. his defense was good enough that i wasn't able to tag him with any jabs i was throwing. he'd slip them and attack my wrist. and my offense wasn't committed enough for me to jab my way in and go after him at close range.

now, if you're no longer talking about my sparring session, but more generally, then i agree.


You say your problem wasn't being painfully blocked but simply being blocked. So you found your tools inadequate.

actually, that's precisely the opposite of what i said. i said that the pain on my wrist bones made me more hesitant to throw the jab until i simply stopped throwing it. not out of frustration, but out of pain. then he closed in.


Upon being blocked in that manner, instead of discouragement at not penetrating, i might let my opponent block, and see how I could take advantage of the situation at that moment. I coould collapsed the arm upon being blocked to the elbow as in the standard Baji elbow thrust for instance.

well now, several years later, i might do something similar myself. but at the time, i didn't.


Giving pain and even breaking bones is no guarantee of winning. I have on occassions fought on with broken foot and another with broken hand and not discovered my situation until afterwards.
But it is ok if the shock can momentarily stun or paralyse the muscles to disarm or penetrate. So such techniques must be immediately followed up on.

and that's largely the point of a gunting. it worked.


Now i suppose How to spar it is also dependent on what basic idea people have decided upon how to fight. Some prefer only a simple kind of punch-kick. Everything is workable. The mind makes it work.

indeed it did. it was an extremely thoughtful offense on tommy's part. recognize my mental state and capitalize on it. it was well played.

as for deciding on how to fight, there was no grappling. that was about it. and that didn't handicap me any, since i had no insight whatsoever on grappling back then. and in terms of sheer brute strength, tommy had me beat.


Also, kickboxing also has the benefit of getting a person used to taking punches. But also allowing punches or blocks to land is a technique used to close the distance or do a takedown. But overdoing the bone bruising may not be useful preparation. I never think i'm not going to get hurt, you just accept you always will get hurt in the real thing. So there's no point in overdoing it.

conceptually accepting it is very different from ignoring its effects during the actual sparring session.


Some people say sparring is totally counterproductive. It teaches you the habit to pull punches and not do the proper finishing or destroying techniques. Many classical styles don't spar, just do form. Maybe those originating masters liked to do their sparring in real fights. There's something to that.

perhaps some of them did. perhaps they simply didn't spar at all. personally, i'm not real big on speculation of this sort.


stuart b.