Differences between C and Y taiji

[dre_doggX]

What are the main differences between these two systems

[Repulsive Monkey]

Yang was born from Chen and originally was pretty much the same. Yang founder Yang Lu-chan was a top student of Chen family lineage holfer Chen Chang Hsin, who in fact claimed that Yang had learnt all his art better than the Chen family members had. So Lu-chan left and went onto to teach in the imperial palaces and then back to his home town to instruct his family members and tailor it to what he thought was pertinent. So in one sense even though the two styles today are obviously different to be seen being done, the princinples of a good legitimate Yang teacher will be the same as that of agenuine legitimate Chen teacher. Aswell as that Chen has more weapons in its style. Yang has tapered some of the fasting moving leaps and attacks and consilidated down to a more uniformed paced and structure. However again depending on who you learn from you will get closer to the principles which highlight the fact that pricipally they are almost the same.

[miscjinx]

I've studied a little of Yang Chen Fu and derivatives, but most of my studies of Yang have been old style Yang Lu'Chan. I studied Chen Style later. But this is some of the things I have noticed over the years.

Yang style tends to be more linear...and adheres/uses the central axis of the back a lot (some yang style classes are stickish/stiff in this respect). Most of the applications I've been taught have been strikes. Yang style typically does look at coiling/uncoiling. Old Yang style has a few leaping kicks and fajings (a martial art), new Yang (Yang Chen Fu and derivatives) do not...more health focus than martial.

Chen style tends to be more circular/spiraled. It uses the back in more directions to generate force. Most of the applications I've been taught have been chi na - a lot more torquing/tearing motions. Chen style focuses on the coiling and uncoiling of the body. Chen style (Lao Jia Yi Lu and Lao Jia Er Lu) has more kicks and fajings...also the body movements are more complicated in general compared with Yang. My body never moved or tried to generate power in some of the directions involved in Chen Style.

Well, that's what comes to mind for the moment...

[miscjinx]

Oops!

That should say...Yang style typically does NOT look at coiling and uncoiling.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Yang style does contain Fa-jing, but I do agree that most schools do either totally mask or haven't got a clue about it, but some scholls do teach it.

[Liokault]

The main differance is that Chen style put a lot of shoalin stuff into their style (Buddas attendant pounds morter springs to mind as an obviously non toaist movement)

Also Yang style differs from chen (at least in the UK) in that they forgot what it was all about and so unable to find another market for their product sold it to the new age hippies!

[count]

(Buddas attendant pounds morter springs to mind as an obviously non toaist movement)
non taoist, perhaps, but this is more of a political statement than a religious one.

I think the main differences are Chen style uses tighter circles, deeper stances, and more brutal applications. But than most of us have only seen that "fat bellied", "Yang Chen Fu style" with wide open arm movements.:D

[gazza99]

For a look at the differences and why from history click here (http://pub84.ezboard.com/fgaryromelsinternalartscommunityfrm1.showMessage?t opicID=40.topic)

[bob10]

There are several older Yang forms still around today, though by and large when people mean Yang they refer either to CMC style or the 24 step, neither of which has anything to do with the family themselves.

Gin Soon Chu in Boston, for example, teaches a fast/slow set (taiji long boxing) and an old form.
His son also practices a fast small frame set, similar looking to the old Hao style routine (which I think is said to originate from YLC).

I've seen video footage of what was called Yang Ban Hou style from China - one form had very low postures, another was very fast.

YCF pioneered large frame form, designed to be the first form taught, to stretch and strengthen the body. It's a demanding form when done properly.

Liokault - we've never met have we? ;-) I can point you to a few non-new age Yang stylers in the UK

I trained in Erles old Yang but have a few questions about it. I won't ask them here for fear of being called a troll.........

[miscjinx]

bob,

"I trained in Erles old Yang but have a few questions about it. I won't ask them here for fear of being called a troll........."

So have I...my first experience with taiji was with a student (and now certified instructor) of Erle's. I would like to know your questions - I may even be able to help...feel free to email me.

Eric_Putkonen@yahoo.com

[gazza99]

Shoot me an email as well with any questions you guys may have about Erles stuff. I have been looking at his stuff both historically, and movement/theory wise from differenent proponents of the Neijia arts. Just becuase I am one of his instructors does not mean I am not willing to question and compare the material.

regards,
Gary

[I.M. Toast]

An interesting thread. I'd like to ask if these families have different methods of application. Does one favor strikes above throws?
I have heard/read that yang is "softer" than Chen and easier on the joints and body. True or False? Where does Sun, Wu and Hao differences fit into the picture; not historically, but technical application?

I.M.T.

[bob10]

Sun is based on Hao to a large extent, which is from the Yang. The Yang small frame/fast set and the Hao/sun are quite similar. It's not so much a case of different styles and different applications but different frame of form. The sequence remains virtually identical.

The problems come when people dont understand what each frame is for and try to teach say, large frame as application. The sequence I was told is
large frame - training form to prepare the body
medium frame - peng and root connection
small frame - mobility and application

That's not to say each is exclusive, but that is the main purpose.

As for Yang vs Chen there are differing opinions.
Some claim they are two spearate systems, that what YLC learned is not what is tauch as Chen today.
Others say that Yang is just watered down Chen

I wouldn't say one is softer than the other (but then I wouldn't say that either is particularly soft) and I've not seen anything to suggest that Yang is less effective. As for joints - depends on how you train I guess - CXW's knees?

[bob10]

My questions on the history side of things would include:
his claim that YLC and sons died in a huge battle are wrong - that was another Yang family about 100 years before, known for their spear fighting (there was a kung fu movie made about them, cant remember the name)

the Wudang kata, espec the stroy that EM had to defeat the guys son to learn the system. If he defeated the son, how good was the system??

the "YLC" form having Yang Sau Cheungs signature movement in it, plus how the claims of YLC spear and broadsword (YCF's broadsword is not slow at all)

There are other things on the training side but, to be honest, I don't train that art any more, so it's kind of academic for me.

I know that it's tough making a living as a teacher, and we all have to market to some extent, but it can go a bit far.

[ddh]

The closest of the Yang styles to Chen is Guang Ping. This is a style that came down from Yang Pan Hou and was made known by Kuo, Lien Ying in San Francisco. :cool:

[dre_doggX]

Anyone who studied under Erle or at least read his books post your opinon.


He says that Yang LU CHAN had the reall taiji, and what the Chens teach isnt what they orignal taiji, of what they learnt from that Taoist Hermit.

Even so, Erle does have a good library of stuff on his downloadable book section.

Chen style will always be Taiji to me because it is based on the 13 postures.

peace

www.taijiworld.com

[dre_doggX]

Its someone from the Wudang and his opinon on the Tai ji styles today
http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/WUTANG.html

[gazza99]

ok,
"My questions on the history side of things would include:
his claim that YLC and sons died in a huge battle are wrong - that was another Yang family about 100 years before, known for their spear fighting (there was a kung fu movie made about them, cant remember the name) "

" havnt heard that one yet, do you have an article reference?

"the Wudang kata, espec the stroy that EM had to defeat the guys son to learn the system. If he defeated the son, how good was the system??

"thats a doozer also, havent heard it, or read it, I just took another look through ERles site, and some old articles and books from him, even emails going back a few year. Nothing of the sort. Again, enough hearsay, how about a reference! Then we can address the- why?-

the "YLC" form having Yang Sau Cheungs signature movement in it, plus how the claims of YLC spear and broadsword (YCF's broadsword is not slow at all)

"I dont really care about the broadsword and spear, but I havent heard of the YAng Sau Cheungs movement, where is YSC in the lineage?

Dre- Please just stop trying to defend Erle, your posts are illogical, and present half-facts based on poor interpretations.

Bottom line is I really dont care about the history disputes, as far as I can tell is that Erles main points are as follows-

1. Yang Lu chuan got training and info from other sources besides the Chens.

2. Erles Lineage is from YAng Shou-hou, the brother of Yang Cheng fu, as YCF watered down the form martially.

3. The Wudang shan system has elements of all the Neijia arts, as someone who has learned these forms, and trained with good xing-I, and Bagua people from different teachers I can say this is true and worst case scenario Erle just invented them, they are still EXCELLENT methods, which are in line with core Neijia principles, mechanics, and the Taiji classics. I have made it a point in the last few years to see other good Neijia players, and research the classics so I can get a non-bias point of view.

[Walter Joyce]

Yang Sau Chung was the last living recognized male Yang family master, whose official disciples include Ip Tai Tak(Hong Kong), Chu Gin Soon(Boston), and Chu King Hong(UK). Yeung (the preferred spelling by my teacher, Chu Gin soon) Sau Chung also had daughters, who are recognized as the rightful heirs of the system and also are based in Hong Kong I believe.
His lineage follows YCF's form.

[bob10]

Yang family "last battle" story - Qi Internal Gung Fu book page 15 is one example

The Wudang story I can't reference at the moment, but will check further. Aside from reading it I was also told this by some of EM's UK people.

Yang Sau Cheung was the eldest son of YCF, teacher of Chu King Hung. He put the "circle right" move in the form after the raise hands at the start . It doesn't appear in any other Yang form - apart from the YLC - that I have seen.

Broadsword - "In the same way, the beautiful Yang Family Broadsword too has been changed over the years to make it more like the Yang Cheng-fu version with softer and slower movements." from EM' site.
Both versions of the YCF broadsword I learn were fast and powerful.

It's fine saying you don't care about the history, but you seem OK about using it to promote what you do. What impression do you think this gives to people?

As far as YLC and the Chens go, I'd tend to agree, but I guess we can never know for sure unless new evidence comes to light, or Mary Yang is prepared to release some of the family writings and documents she currently holds.

Like I said I understand the need to differentiate what you are doing from a promotional point of view - especially if you are non-Chinese, unfortunately this does make a difference to people. But if a major selling point is your history, then you'd best be sure it is as accurate as possible.

cheers

[wufupaul]

Hey Bob10, just wanted to point out something from a previous post of yours in this thread.

"Sun is based on Hao to a large extent, which is from the Yang."

Sun's taiji is based mostly from Wu Hao, but Wu Hao lineage comes from Chen, not Yang- http://www.chinwoo.com/images/lineage.GIF (Just look at the lineage chart on the right, the list on the left is for that teacher's Yang lineage) Wu Jien Quan taiji does come from the Yang side, though. Maybe you just mixed the two Wu styles up?

[bob10]

Ta Wufupaul

I'll check on that and get back to you

[gazza99]

Thanks for the info Bob,

"Like I said I understand the need to differentiate what you are doing from a promotional point of view - especially if you are non-Chinese, unfortunately this does make a difference to people. But if a major selling point is your history, then you'd best be sure it is as accurate as possible"

True, the only thing I have really mentioned about the history, or used to promote are the points I made in my last post. The fact about his Yang-shou-hou's lineage retaining the more martial aspects is the main point I make, other than that if you will look at my websites history section I present multiple history versions as I cannot determine which is correct. All I can do is read the classics, visit and learn from other good Neijia people and abide by the rules, and keep learning.
As much as I respect Erle, I will never just limit myself to Erle as a source for Neijia.

Gary

[bob10]

Cheers Gary

[dedalus]

The remarks about Yang family lineage and authenticity are kinda interesting. The reason I say this is that is strikes me that the Yang family style is really only 4 generations old, and at the hands of Yang Luch'an it was an upstart martial art - you can imagine what the Chens might have been saying about him if they had online forums back then! Perhaps you can also imagine the general ridicule YLC might have recieved for saying that he had *improved* the Chen style (surely one of the most esteemed traditions in MA history), and with the aid of a "secret taoist text" no less!

We nevertheless tend to agree these days that YLC developed a great system, and we go on to eteem his lineage. I think that one reason for this is that Yang and his sons proved their fighting prowess in combat, which is unfortunately a difficult thing to do in modern days. But still you might ask yourself... in 100 years time, which of today's upstarts will have founded new esteemed lineages? Maybe the Gracies (don't cringe, just remember that it doesn't really matter)?

I think there's a certain sense of safety associated with a robust account of lineage, but its no guarantee of quality. History is interesting, for sure, but it can certainly be misguiding if you're in martial arts for the skills. Anyone who spent their time deconstructing YLC's background would have missed the opportunity to absorb his martial genius.

[bob10]

The question I've asked a lot of people (and never got an answer) is - what was it that set YLC apart from his contemperaries?

Out of interest what mention is there of him outside taiji circles? Assuming that there were some real badasses around, he must have had something special, beyond what you see in today's taiji?

On another historical note - does anyone have info on the Chinese and Japanese emperors using Russian bodyguards?