kicking when entering

[Patrick Gordon]

Howdy folks,

How many of you suggest entering with a kick in order to distract the opponents hands so you may close the gap? The kick is not intended to do damage, just open up the structure of the hands. I recall WSL saying this on this one video tape. I have also seen William Cheung do it in many photos.
A student asked me this question tonight and I said no, don't take chances. He was surprised because he had learned it from a previous wing chun family he had been training under and he liked it. I told him there were no faints to open up the opponent, a faint is not an ask. You only kick when you are sure to strike with the target and you should be controlling the opponent if you kick. I believe this is the same as entering with a blind punch without any control of the opponent.
What are your thoughts on this subject?

Patrick Gordon.

[Wingman]

It depends on the distance between you and your opponent. If you can close the gap without stepping forward, then you may be able to bridge the gap using only your hands (jab, biu sao, etc). After establishing contact and presumably controlling your opponent, you may kick.

If the distance is greater and you have to step forward, then that's a different story. When you step forward, your opponent can do a "stop kick" on your leg to prevent you from stepping forward. They say that, "a kick is step". Since you are stepping anyway, be prepared to convert your step into a kick.

There are no feints in wing chun; and that includes kicks. Kicking just to distact the opponent's hands is not a good idea. The end does not justify the means.

[CanadianBadAss]

"How many of you suggest entering with a kick in order to distract the opponents hands so you may close the gap? "

The idea would be to take your opponent out with the one kick. With any luck end the fight before it really starts. The distraction of his hands if he's still standing is a bonus.

"You only kick when you are sure to strike with the target and you should be controlling the opponent if you kick."

Isn't kicking a way of controlling him?

" I believe this is the same as entering with a blind punch without any control of the opponent"

Would you call it a blind punch if the guys arms were just hanging down(assuming you already fighting)? Or would you wait till you could controll them? If the guy's not kicking you, you might as well be kicking him, and punching too. And if anything gets in your way you use your Wingchun.

[S.Teebas]

"You only kick when you are sure to strike with the target and you should be controlling the opponent if you kick."

Isn't kicking a way of controlling him?


Of course stay in control while kicking. But the Purpose of kicking isnt to control, it's to inflict damage.

[Patrick Gordon]

In regards to Canadian bad Ass

The idea would be to take your opponent out with the one kick. With any luck end the fight before it really starts. The distraction of his hands if he's still standing is a bonus. CBA

Don't you think it would be out of sheer luck if you landed the kick? I don't think you would be able to end the fight before it started with a front kick into someone in a ready position. PG

Isn't kicking a way of controlling him? CBA

Not at all. In order to kick in Wing Chun, you should have control of your opponent. Thisd way you are more able to make contact. You do not punch if you do not have the line to make contact, this also applies to the kick. PG

Would you call it a blind punch if the guys arms were just hanging down(assuming you already fighting)? Or would you wait till you could controll them? If the guy's not kicking you, you might as well be kicking him, and punching too. And if anything gets in your way you use your Wingchun. CBA

We are discussing closing the gap. Both fighters are in a ready position. Would you try to close the gap with a kick? Do you feel it will be productive?

Patrick Gordon.

[S.Teebas]

I don't think you would be able to end the fight before it started with a front kick into someone in a ready position.

I think you could with enough training. Bust someones knee open and i wonder how keen they will be on continuing to fight (unless they are a grapler ;) )
Some of the guys i train with kick as hard as a slege hammer.

What are your thoughts Partick Gordon?

[AndrewP]

I may be mistaken but I though I read somewhere that Duncan Leung said that he saw Yip Man fight for real only once. And that Yip Man only kicked once and that was the end of the fight. So maybe that should bear some weight of just using any weapon that feels right for you at the time.

See ya!

[EnterTheWhip]

When it's starts with a kick, it is not Wing Chun.

[Rolling_Hand]

Quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------
When it's starts with a kick, it is not Wing Chun.
-------------------------------------------------------------

You're kidding!

[AndrewP]

Made a mistake. It wasn't Duncan Leung. I did read it somewhere.

[Alpha Dog]

Bruce Lee had some snazzy kicks!

[Shadowboxer]

We do 2 drills focusing on this. One is the act/react line. 2 people circle trying to determine when the other has crossed the "line" and is in range for a kick to the knee. Another variation is one is the attacker the other the defender. Attacker tries to close the gap with a kick to the knee, defender stops him with jeet gerk or fung gerk, while both are circling.
The other drill is closing the gap pak da or biu/lop da (with a kick to the knee). We learn this fairly early on. When you learn tan/bong gerk and counters to pak da, you have another way of neutralizing this attack. I personally like to close with a kick from sit ma, to change the angle, then counter stepping comes into play.

[Patrick Gordon]

I think you could with enough training. Bust someones knee open and i wonder how keen they will be on continuing to fight (unless they are a grapler )
Some of the guys i train with kick as hard as a slege hammer.

What are your thoughts Partick Gordon?

Some people who train for entering with kicks can quite often do it very well. In Wing Chun we enter to take over our opponents structure with proper timing, power, structure and distance. Our movements must be quick and aggressive with all our skills working together. We must also have guts in order to walk right in. Entering with a kick does not take over our opponents structure. It may work with very good success, it may not. i am not willing to take the chance against someone who may kick better than myself. i would perfer to take over their structure to prevent them from being able to successfully attack back. Once I have control, then I may kick if the opprotunity presents itself.

Patrick Gordon.


__________________
S.Teebas

[rogue]

Don't you think it would be out of sheer luck if you landed the kick? I know lots of lucky people.


I don't think you would be able to end the fight before it started with a front kick into someone in a ready position. PG If someone is in a ready position I'd consider the fight well under way.

[dbulmer]

Bridging the gap with a kick may be good against someone with low skill and in a situation where you can go on the initiative quickly but I am always wary of relying on one technique solely be that a kick or a chain punch or whatever.

Personally, I'd prefer to stay on both feet until the time was right - ie keep wouldbe bad guy guessing so that when I am in punching range I can both kick and punch (-assuming I can) without warning and to increase accuracy. Basically when I kick I want to be 100% certain of hitting the target.

[dbulmer]

Just a little extra comment I forgot to add.
Can you guys remember the very first time someone hit you in the face in class? Can you remember the first time someone kicked you as you moved in towards the centreline?

I can - and what I remember is the shock of being hit - it may have been nothing more than a tap but you were hit - now imagine that simultaneous punch/kick on someone in the range - the force may not be great but the shock of it might and I underline *might* be enough to extricate yourself from the situation.

[Patrick Gordon]

When you step forward, your opponent can do a "stop kick" on your leg to prevent you from stepping forward. They say that, "a kick is step". Since you are stepping anyway, be prepared to convert your step into a kick. WM

Your opponent may do a stop kick against your kick a lot easier than just your stepping leg because it is not in the air. If you are also kicking without hand control, your opponent only has to worry about the kick because that is the only attack presented. it has no control.

patrick Gordon.

[Patrick Gordon]

If someone is in a ready position I'd consider the fight well under way. Rogue

You haven't mentioned whether you would enter with a kick? Both fighter have squared off. You can wait to counter your opponents closing or you can close yourself. Would you consider it against Wing Chun principles to close the gap with a kick, either to do damage of as a fient to distact him or her for your advantage?

Patrick Gordon.

[Wingman]

Your opponent may do a stop kick against your kick a lot easier than just your stepping leg because it is not in the air. If you are also kicking without hand control, your opponent only has to worry about the kick because that is the only attack presented. it has no control.

Hi Patrick,

So you are basically saying that the opponent (the defender) will most likely do a stop kick on your kicking leg and not the supporting leg? Your reason for doing so, is valid. But kicking the supporting leg can also disrupt the opponent's (attacker's) balance and thereby nullify his kick.

If I were the defender, I will kick the attacker's lead leg. It doesn't matter whether the lead leg is the kicking leg or the supporting leg. Most TKD or karate people kick with the hind leg. This makes their lead leg the supporting leg when they kick. I will try to kick his lead/supporting leg to disrupt his balance. Most wing chun people kick with the lead leg. This makes their lead leg their kicking leg. In this case, I will do a stop kick on their lead/kicking leg.

Another reason for attacking the lead leg is, the opponent's lead leg is nearest to my own lead leg.

[black and blue]

Andrew,

It was Duncan Leung, and it came from a post I put up a while back. I asked him a question on Yip Man's application, and he said he'd only seen him fight once, and Yip Man used one technique to end the confrontation... a kick.

I read somewhere else (can't remember the source), that Yip Man had amazing hands, but even better feet. So this story from Sifu Leung seems on the money.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Patrick Gordon
Would you consider it against Wing Chun principles to close the gap with a kick, either to do damage of as a fient to distact him or her for your advantage? I would say that using a kick (or any hand for that matter) as a fient is against Wing Chun principles. I'm not interested in distracting anyone, just taking and controlling the center.

Matrix

[S.Teebas]

Entering with a kick does not take over our opponents structure.

Entering with a kick doesn’t, but landing it does IMHO.


I would prefer to take over their structure to prevent them from being able to successfully attack back

How do you take over their structure? Disrupt balance? Cut off options? Segment opponents body via applying multiple vectors of force on different limbs? ..in short effect the opponent for his loss. I'm aware you're a sifu and have more experience than myself im sure...but don’t you your feel the prime purpose/desired outcome of combat if essentially to cream the other guy?

I shouldn't jump the gun, but im assuming you mean to control the other guys structure via contact (which sounds like chasing instead of attacking). The metholodigy ive been taught is to attack, and if something gets in the way; chi-sau kicks in...and then keep attacking.
I have found this to be relatively successfully, but if you have any comments im interested in any constructive critism.

[Patrick Gordon]

quote:
So you are basically saying that the opponent (the defender) will most likely do a stop kick on your kicking leg and not the supporting leg? Your reason for doing so, is valid. But kicking the supporting leg can also disrupt the opponent's (attacker's) balance and thereby nullify his kick.

this is true, I was thinking of myself. If you were to kick me, I might use a stop kick. If you were to walk towards me I would probably not kick until I had control. If I were to kick at your supporting leg, I would be giving you an attack to counter. I prefer to kick when I am controlling. This is the same idea as me just punching you when you closed the gap, I want to have superior control, structure, timing and the line before I counter your movement. Punching or kicking you would just be giving you the option to counter me. Patrick.

Quote.
Most wing chun people kick with the lead leg. This makes their lead leg their kicking leg. In this case, I will do a stop kick on their lead/kicking leg.

This is not true. You should be able to kick off of either leg. It all comes down to adjustment and structure. You may be saying Wing Chun people kick off the lead leg when not in contact? then again, I would not kick. Patrick.

Quote
Another reason for attacking the lead leg is, the opponent's lead leg is nearest to my own lead leg.

quite often my lead leg is too close to land an effective kick. If I do kick with my lead leg, quite often I will have to adjust my stance in order to do so, coming from a 50/50 weight distribution. I will not need to adjust so much if I have control of my opponent. Patrick

[old jong]

"How many of you suggest entering with a kick in order to distract the opponents hands so you may close the gap? The kick is not intended to do damage, just open up the structure of the hands."

It could work on some opponents but it should not be considered valuable against a well trained person.I would not suggest this kind of tactic.It is better to walk into the fighting range with the triangle/structure and do whatever happens when contact is made.We train for just that in chi sau all the times.

I would suggest to start signing bel canto instead as a way to distract an opponent.It's a lot more effective!;)

Salut Sifu! ;) :)

[Patrick Gordon]

Quote:
How do you take over their structure? Disrupt balance? Cut off options? Segment opponents body via applying multiple vectors of force on different limbs? ..in short effect the opponent for his loss.

In order to covercome your opponent, it would be best to have better structure than he or she. When you close, your timing, power, and structure should be perfect. Your distance must also be close enough that you may land strikes and not close enough than you jam yourself. You must capture the line and take control of it. All of these attributes should control your opponents struture in order to have the superior structure. Without structure you are unable to launch a successful counter. Patrick.

Quote:
I'm aware you're a sifu and have more experience than myself im sure...but don’t you your feel the prime purpose/desired outcome of combat if essentially to cream the other guy?

i am still just a student. The desire to covercome your opponent is a big part of a beginner training. Best to leave your ego at home and work on developing your skills. Do you want to just have a punch out with your opponent and see who wins? Maybe you would prefer weight lifting so you have superior weight and muscle to take them out? Taking over structure is an imprtant skill which is hard to acheive without lots of training. You have many skills to work on in order to reach the final result in taking over structure. Wing Chun gives you many skills to prefect, you must blend these together to...cream the other guy. Patrick.

Quote:
I shouldn't jump the gun, but im assuming you mean to control the other guys structure via contact (which sounds like chasing instead of attacking).

It has nothing to do with chasing. taking over structure is leaving you with the ability to hit and control, leaving the other having to TRY to defend due to poor structure. Patrick.

The metholodigy ive been taught is to attack, and if something gets in the way; chi-sau kicks in...and then keep attacking.
I have found this to be relatively successfully, but if you have any comments im interested in any constructive critism.

It is good theory to walk right into your opponent, but you must have the skills to do so. Chi sau should kick in but you attack only when you have the line to do so. don't attack for just the sake of attacking. Think of all your skills as a bunch of points. If you can maintain more points than your opponent can, then you can probably control your opponent. If you focus on one or two points, you will lose the rest of your points. Your training must be balanced. patrick.


__________________
S.Teebas

[Patrick Gordon]

I agree with the Matrix concerning feints.

Patrick Gordon.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by old jong
I would suggest to start signing bel canto instead as a way to distract an opponent.It's a lot more effective!;)

Why not just say something like......"Hey look at that !" and point behind the opponent. It works in the movies. :)
Besides, I don't want to hear Old Jong sing. :D

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Wingman
Most wing chun people kick with the lead leg. This makes their lead leg their kicking leg. This is a dangerous assumption, IMO. Personally I like to kick with the rear leg just as much as the front. It really depends on which tool best fits the job that needs to be done at that time.

Matrix

[S.Teebas]

Do you want to just have a punch out with your opponent and see who wins? Maybe you would prefer weight lifting so you have superior weight and muscle to take them out?

I feel you're misinterpreting some things ive written, but thanks for the reply anyway.

[old jong]

You...Are making an assumption about my signing!
;) But let's not highjack my Sifu's thread! I agree with you as well. Planning an attack is subject to the other guy's reactions for effectiveness.What if the guy does'nt react accordingly to the feint?...

[BeiKongHui]

I've found that entering with a front kick can get you taken down pretty quickly by an experienced opponent. I like to wait until I'm pretty close (preferably already in contact) to start kicking if for nothing else that the closer I am the harder it is for them to visually pick up the kick.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Patrick Gordon
Both fighter have squared off. There is no fight in this situation, and there is no Wing Chun. Only a game.

[kj]

Hey, what are you guys trying to do?!? The level of discussion on this forum is on a definite upswing ... is this going to continue???

;):)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[passing_through]

When entering into an opponent's space, shouldn't the potential for a kick from your opponent be addressed? How do you preclude the ability of your opponent to kick? Enter too fast for him to react? What if you're too slow? Relying on skill or attribues to handle a known opening in structure would seem to be dangerous. What prevents your opponent from kicking you?

How do you take over their structure? Disrupt balance? Cut off options?

Wouldn't covering the lower gate serve to cut off options, influence their structure and force them to do something with their balance?

As has been stated in this thread, simply putting a leg out in the hopes that it will distract my opponent is a gamble. Even using a kick just to buy time to move in is dangerous - the kick can be intercepted, redirected, or damaged. When I move in, if I don't cover the lower gate, my opponent might fill it to interrupt/intercept my entry or worse, flank me. If I do cover the space, I risk having my leg grabbed or being counter-kicked. Either option is risky. I wonder if there is a better time or a better place to offer a kick or make a step?

In my experience when entering into another's boundaries the lower gate should be covered to some extent to prevent the opponent from gaining advantage over your position. The degree and extent of the coverage depends on relative position between myself and my opponent/partner as well as his/her body position (sunk for grappling, high for mobility, etc.). The coverage could take the form of a kick or even the placement of my opponent's feet to my entry (using his legs to limit is offensive potential). The context will dictate when you should kick and when you should step - but in either case you must address and cover your lower gate when entering.

Jeremy R.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by old jong
Planning an attack is subject to the other guy's reactions for effectiveness.What if the guy does'nt react accordingly to the feint?... Exactly! The point of a feint is to get the opponent to react in a certain way so that you deliver "the real" attack. This is not Wing Chun, in my opinion.

Take the center, and do your business. No need for games.

Matrix

[Patrick Gordon]

Originally posted by Patrick Gordon
Both fighter have squared off.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no fight in this situation, and there is no Wing Chun. Only a game. ETW

Total crap! You cannot pridict how a fight will start. You have two options if you see there is not way out. You enter or they enter, otherwise it won't happen or it may began without even realizing how it got to that point. Quite often if it got to a point before the fight began and both fighters knew it was going to happen (I am talking about a second before exchanges began), they would prepare themselves...POSSIBLY squaring off. It would be easy for me to write, the wing chun fighter would make no attept to put him or herself in a ready position because there is no need for one. You either fight or you do not.

You can also look at this is that the fight already started, both fighters exchanged equal blows, the fight is going head to head with both fighters doing pretty good, they seperate momentarily...will you not stay in a ready position during the short seperation of the fight. Please don't try to tell me the wing chun fighter would not seperate. Would you then consider entering with a kick?

This the same as seeing two boxers in the ring and they drop there arms during no exchange.

To say if two fighters square off, there is not fight, it is just a game, is rubbish. Sorry if I sound bitter, I am not, just sounds like I am.

Patrick Gordon.

[cobra]

I'm fairly low level, but I would think that the best time to employ your long range assets would be before you get to knee and elbow range. I would think your power would be greatest at a range just beyond the hands. That is not to say you can't use them up close. So, if someone were rushing you they would be kicked first, unless you're late reacting , then obviously, you would have to use your hands. A kick to the knee upon entering can throw their balance way off and into your punch that is also there.

[Martial Joe]

I read the first two responces so i dont know if some one already said this...


...You have to be careful when throwing low kicks because it provokes the guy your fighting to take you on the ground if hes a grappler...But using your feet to destract the mans hans can be extremely usefull.

WingMan Caught my attention when he said it depends on the distance because hes right.If you kick to far away and too early it will be easier to see it coming and they just got to grab on the that and it could result with you on your back, wich isnt good.

[Martial Joe]

Basicaly im saying have some good timing, and know when to do it.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Martial Joe
...You have to be careful when throwing low kicks because it provokes the guy your fighting to take you on the ground if hes a grappler...But using your feet to destract the mans hans can be extremely usefull.I think if the opponent is a grappler, he's going to want to go to the ground no matter what you do. If he's a grappler he's going to shoot, because that what he trains for. If a kick is the appropriate response then it should be used.

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by cobra
I'm fairly low level, but I would think that the best time to employ your long range assets would be before you get to knee and elbow range. I would think your power would be greatest at a range just beyond the hands. Hey Cobra, for someone who is fairly "low-level", you seem to have a good perspective on it. At least from where I'm looking......:cool:

Matrix
Also a low-level guy

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Patrick Gordon
Total crap! You cannot predict how a fight will start. Patrick,

Thanks for making that clear. I was hoping a senior person like yourself would do so. If someone squares off in front of me, I'm assuming that things are about to get serious in a hurry and I should be prepared to respond to that threat.

Regards,
Matrix

[S.Teebas]

, I'm assuming that things are about to get serious in a hurry

Id say things already ARE serious at this stage.

[OdderMensch]

Our Sifu has taught us that raiseing the hands into a gaurd(no matter how crude) or dropping into a stance is a "go" signal. If at all possible I am taught to attack before, or as he raises his gaurd.

We are also taught (as Shadowboxer said) to close the gap with a kick. we also learn to close it with a seep ma, sueng ma, bui ma, and what to do if you opponent closes the gap for you.

as for entering with the kick we are also taught hat "the kick does not miss" so you must learn the distance, timing, speed and the abilty to not "telegraph" your kick.

once the kick is thrown, it is treated like the hands. If it hits "oh happy day" if the opponet has time/distance to move then you have "mistimed" your kick,a and must quickly adjust your intent.

the kick is not and cannot (as several have pointed out) be a fient. you must throw the kick with the idea being to remove that front knee from the equation. it they don't "react" they get kicked and you gain a moment to take over thier sructure and never let them have it back.

even if you miss on the inital kick if you have attacked acording to timeing then the gap shuld now be crossed and you are within beating range. turn the kick into a setep and disrupt thier ballance.

I hope we all know not to roboticly alway kick across the gap, there are as many time you should not kick as times you should. if you enemy gives you a target, take it out. if they do not, atttackt to create a target. (one of a number of possiblites of "see form, strike form; see shadow, strike shadow")

and just to keep this on topic for KFO i'd just like to conclude by saying my kwoon/lineage/instucter/sihing is the best, one and only way, the light and the path and all of you that dissagree are hijacking my post :D

[Patrick Gordon]

Originally posted by S.Teebas


I feel you're misinterpreting some things ive written, but thanks for the reply anyway.

sorry if I've misinterpreted you. It was the way you said you just want to cream your opponent. It sounded like you have no time to learn development, you just want to knock your opponents head off. It sounded low level. Sorry If I sounded insulting, regards,

patrick Gordon.

[Patrick Gordon]

Quote from Oddermensch:

as for entering with the kick we are also taught hat "the kick does not miss" so you must learn the distance, timing, speed and the abilty to not "telegraph" your kick.


this is an odd saying to go along with entering with a kick. since you do not have control over your opponent, you have a good chance of missing. It doesn't really make sense. the saying "a kick does not miss" is a saying which states, you do not kick until you know you are going to make contact. You keep your kicks in reserve until that moment comes. This when you have control of your opponent and you have perfect structure to kick. To say a kick never misses when closing the gap is wishful thinking.

Patrick Gordon.

[OdderMensch]

Maybe i'm useing circular logic but i've also taken that saying to mean "if it misses, its not a kick"

what I mean is I have, from practice, a better than average chance at hitting something (knee, shin, hip, thigh) when I "throw" my entering kick (to be precise its a "jeet gerk" intercepting kick, where I move to intercept) or I shouldn't be throwing it.

I've spared & seen peole who toss out round, side, and hook kicks seemingly at random. when they miss ('bout 60% of the time) the good ones retract & rechamber, the bad ones go off balance or worse fall down.

In WC if I were to kick and the target moved completly out of range, then i set my foot down and use the desending power arc of the leg to move me closer to my target.

if the kick were to be blocked, then i now have a bridge, and can deal with it/ travel over it as i have been trained.

if my kick hits, then oh happy day!

So while i "threw" a kick when there was no target it "became" a step. I don't rechamber, spin off line, or fall over. I'm closer to my target, and still in a good stance so I am "ready" for whatever comes next.

so my "energy" (call this what you will: distance, structure, time) is not wasted. My kick did not miss, since it was a step.

[cobra]

sounds like what we're taught in my school, or better said, "sounds like WC/WT to me." Do y'all use 100/0 weight distribution? Just wondering.

[yuanfen]

Do y'all use 100/0 weight distribution?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
NOPE. But then I dont do WT.
Lots of variations in weighting......
by lineages and context.

[OdderMensch]

we use the 100/0 in the "hal ma" or back weighted stance, and also leave our rear foot on the ground during the "toe ma" or dragging step.


yuanfen - I had the wonderful opportunity at the last tourny to speak with some of Fong's students. I hope to do so more in the future, Fong himself is amazing. I loved the look on one guys face when I told them we use full wieght on the back leg, and turn on the ball of the foot. its that kind of hearsy we like to be known for in Texas. :D

[Patrick Gordon]

Originally posted by OdderMensch
we use the 100/0 in the "hal ma" or back weighted stance, and also leave our rear foot on the ground during the "toe ma" or dragging step.

Dragging step?? Sorry, I couldn't resist. In our line, we try to be very natural, we step with both feet. Patrick.


yuanfen - I had the wonderful opportunity at the last tourny to speak with some of Fong's students. I hope to do so more in the future, Fong himself is amazing. I loved the look on one guys face when I told them we use full wieght on the back leg, and turn on the ball of the foot. its that kind of hearsy we like to be known for in Texas. :D

Sounds like Tony. I know he was at a recent tournament with sifu, did a demo with him and won first place in forms and chi sau. Tony has some pretty good facial expressions when you tell him something he's never heard. Going to Tucson to see him in a week and a half.

Patrick Gordon.

[yuanfen]

Patrick- it was Tony at the Texas tournament. Master Fong also
showed several people some things after making sure that the
relevant sifu(s) would not be offended.

[yuanfen]

Never say never. But generally entering with a kick is nota good idea. ....unless.....

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Matrix
This is a dangerous assumption, IMO. Personally I like to kick with the rear leg just as much as the front. It really depends on which tool best fits the job that needs to be done at that time.

Matrix


]Originally posted by Patrick Gordon
This is not true. You should be able to kick off of either leg. It all comes down to adjustment and structure. You may be saying Wing Chun people kick off the lead leg when not in contact? then again, I would not kick. Patrick.

WC people can kick with either leg. When I said that most WC people kick with the lead leg, I was assuming that no contact has been established. As what I've said in my first post, "kicking when entering" depends on the distance between you and your opponent.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Patrick Gordon
It would be easy for me to write, the wing chun fighter would make no attept to put him or herself in a ready position because there is no need for one.

Please don't try to tell me the wing chun fighter would not seperate.


Just because someone who learns Wing Chun engages in a "fight", does not make him a Wing Chun fighter. This distinction needs to made.

To answer your question.... No, a "Wing Chun" fighter would not do the above. He would not be in that situation. It is simply a game. However, a fighter who learnd Wing Chun might engage in it.

[Sui]

whip,i totally agree there is a distinction most definatly.

not bad not bad at all,i got you all wrong:)

[fa_jing]

I like to enter with a mid-level front kick, however I also like to NOT enter, with a front kick. My front kick is one of my most powerful tools but I use it to set up the opponent. I'll fire a couple quick ones to get them in reactive mode to the kick, make myself look like a kicker, then when I step in punching it surprises them and I get right in there. The time that I actually enter with the kick is when they start dropping their guard to block the kick, as I set my foot down it rocks my upper body forward and I can land a punch to the head.

[yuanfen]

good wing chun people wont fall for fakes.
That is where some kinds of "sparring" can lull you
into picking up dangerous faking patterns. IMO of course.

[fa_jing]

YF- it's not really a fake. If they don't block the kick they will get hurt. The strategy "fakes out" the opponent but the actual technique itself is not a fake.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by fa_jing
YF- it's not really a fake. If they don't block the kick they will get hurt. The strategy "fakes out" the opponent but the actual technique itself is not a fake. Well I guess you're not planning to fight any Wing Chun people then. This "strategy" of not-really-fake-out fake-outs is a waste of time, IMO. You say you expect the opponent to drop their guard to block after this series of kicks, at which point you "rock your upper body forward" for a punch to the head. It may be me, but my visuallization of this sequence of events tells me that your setting yourself up for a world of hurt.

Sorry, but I can't see this working on any moderately experienced martial artist. Your whole outcome is based on your expectation that the opponent will react in a certain way after a series of kicks. I really don't believe that this will happen as you've described.

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
He would not be in that situation. It is simply a game. In the scenario described he "is" in that situation, so that is what we are discussing, not some alternate universe theory. Of course it's a game. Life is a game. Whoever dies with the most medals and trophies wins.;)

Matrix

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by Matrix
Well I guess you're not planning to fight any Wing Chun people then.
Of course not. Unless they were real jerks LOL (not directed towards anyone here).



This "strategy" of not-really-fake-out fake-outs is a waste of time, IMO. You say you expect the opponent to drop their guard to block after this series of kicks, at which point you "rock your upper body forward" for a punch to the head. It may be me, but my visuallization of this sequence of events tells me that your setting yourself up for a world of hurt.

Like what? Attack low, attack high, it's in most martial arts. "Beat the grass to startle the snake" What are you visualizing? I ain't striking a pose.



Sorry, but I can't see this working on any moderately experienced martial artist.

So far it has worked against a Taiji (5years) + 2 yrs ShauiChiao guy, and a 10-year student of Okinawan Karate. Actually I swiped the moves from my teacher who is a very accomplished martial artist. Although I deliver with my own flavor.



Your whole outcome is based on your expectation that the opponent will react in a certain way after a series of kicks. I really don't believe that this will happen as you've described.
Matrix


I have video but I am not currently able to post it.

You just don't understand the smoothness, man. The flow. But, I will grant that it is something of a sportfighting thing, as Yuanfen pointed out. Real fighting situations must be ended as quickly as possible, leaving little time to play psychogical games. I would definitely attack a real-life opponent with a front kick-head punch combo, however. The intent would be a little different.
-FJ

[Matrix]

Originally posted by fa_jing
You just don't understand the smoothness, man. The flow. That must be it :D

I find it interesting that so many have fallen for that. If you ever get a chance to post some video, I'd really like to see it. Having said this, I doubt it would work against a decent Wing Chun fighter. You would quickly find yourself under too much pressure for these pseudo-fake tactics. It may be effective in a point-sparring scenario however, but that's a whole different ball o' wax.

I'm happy to hear that your real-life scenario is more direct. It's all about the intent.

Matrix

[fa_jing]

I wasn't referring to point sparring.
The play with the taiji guy was a friendly medium-heavy continuous sparring and with the karate guy was continuous sparring in a tournament. Both instances with protective gear, takedowns, some low targets allowed etc. That's also how we spar in the kwoon. All sparring is just a game that is fun and helps you improve your fighting ability unless you lose your framework entirely. Anyway my front kick is like a question that I want my opponent to answer, if he can then I make my response based on how he answered that question. I have other ways to enter too but I've found the above to be generally effective.
However, I've seen the other side of things too. Once in sparring I stepped in with a medium WC side kick and my sifu low bon sao'd it and came up with a whipping punch that rocked me. I had let my hands spread as I kicked...got to keep those hands where they belong! :)

[Patrick Gordon]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip


Just because someone who learns Wing Chun engages in a "fight", does not make him a Wing Chun fighter. This distinction needs to made.

Totally agreed. Patrick.

To answer your question.... No, a "Wing Chun" fighter would not do the above. He would not be in that situation. It is simply a game. However, a fighter who learnd Wing Chun might engage in it.

That is your own personal opinion. How can you say they would not be in that position, are you talking for all wing chun practitioners? If you were punched quite hard in the back of the head but not knocked to the floor, I believe you would probably turn around with you hands up to protect yourself against another possible attack, wouldn't you? Although you never said you were a wing chun fighter.

There are MANY reasons to avoid a fight. My sifu teaches to avoid a fight any way you can, if you end up fighting you have already lost because you are not playing your own game. One of the reasons not to fight was because if you fight, you are going to kill the other. With this idea in mind, would you be prepared to go through with it and would it be worth it? You only fight if there is no way out or you have to protect your loved ones, otherwise it is just ego. If ego is the problem, you are not playing your own game.

A wing chun fighter avoids a fight any way possible (in my school) and when he or she fights, it is not a game. If my opponent is giving me a problem and we seperate, you can be **** sure my hands will be in Jong Sau position...and I won't enter with a kick, ha!

Patrick Gordon.

[OdderMensch]

I wouldn't enter with a kick in that senario either. Hit once i'd come up to a jong sau just for a second to get my head. we have a great tape of our Sifu getting tossed during a tai chi demo and just woooop rolling and popping up into a gaurd. I'd seek any way out of a fight, back myself out a door or into a corner if need be. But if you the fights comeing, and have no way to avoid it.....hit hard, hit fast, and ,when possible, hit first.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by fa_jing
Once in sparring I stepped in with a medium WC side kick and my sifu low bon sao'd it and came up with a whipping punch that rocked me. I had let my hands spread as I kicked...got to keep those hands where they belong! :) That's what happens when you sacrifice your balance to enter. You are standing on one leg as you move into the opponent and that's a very precarious situation to be in. You are counting on the fact that you are faster or stronger than the opponent and that may not always be the case. When you kick, they may move and counter and you are hung out to dry. Also, why a side-kick? Just curious.

Matrix

[fa_jing]

Why a side kick? Don't know, really. Just trying something. One of the things I don't understand is when to use a side kick as opposed to a front kick. They're both thrusting kicks, the placement of the hip is different and of course the angle of the foot is different. Right now I'm just trying things to see how they work for me, but if you could provide a logical explaination of when to use one or the other I would appreciate it.

[Alpha Dog]

what do you do if you aim a front kick at an opponent who then moves to the side?

[fa_jing]

Well, I'd put my foot down, first, and re-aim myself towards him while backing up and punching (he's on my outer gate so I have to do something fast). Even if I tried to follow him I might just shoot out the front kick at an angle. Still, what you are alluding to is an interesting concept, I know that in some lineages the sequence you describe exists in the Chum Kil form, now that I think about it. However, in our Chum Kil this does not happen.

[EnterTheWhip]

My sifu teaches to avoid a fight any way you can, if you end up fighting you have already lost because you are not playing your own game.So why aren't you teaching the same?


If my opponent is giving me a problem and we seperate, you can be **** sure my hands will be in Jong Sau position...and I won't enter with a kick, ha!If you separate, that is your way out. Why wouldn't you take it? Because your ego would come into play... wouldn't it? That is not a Wing Chun fighter.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Matrix
In the scenario described he "is" in that situation
He is not in a situation where Wing Chun is necessary.

[old jong]

EnterTheWhip.
Just to let you know that your old self coughWhippingHandcoughcough is beginning to surface!....;)

[OdderMensch]

I can think of a few possibilites

1. the hit knocked him into an area with no exit save thru the assalient.

2. other lives are at risk.

3. you've tried to run,

4. you've tried to be nice,

5. you've tried to apologize.

6. you have come to the realization that, by karma, this man before you has earned an asskicking, and has asked you to administer it. You must simply fufill your role as a cog in the great wheel of life, death and suffering.

[Sui]

whips right on que with this one i must say.i have met a few and [not in compotition award winning medles and stuff]let me tell you wing is within these chaps,meaning a "wing chun fighter"[from my end]has to be reved up before he protects himself.come to think of it as soon as connection is made,eye to eye,verble etc the're"aware" to the fact that a fight may start?
but i know this of w/c fighters so thats how i know they're are to bow out of respect to me.but the w/c that get into a fight are expecting to many possibilities of what may come,a waste in my opinion?

so,this is an outsiders point of view and a very good one wouldn't you say whip?;)

[Sui]

OdderMensch.these are fine examples and are not wing chun princeples,infact they are not any k.f princeples,only they are western veiws on to protect ones-self IMO.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip

He is not in a situation where Wing Chun is necessary. But your spidey senses should be tingling....

Matrix

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by old jong
EnterTheWhip.
Just to let you know that your old self coughWhippingHandcoughcough is beginning to surface!....;)
Thanks for the warning, old jong...

[TRON]

ey i'm a SLOPPY AMATURE that has alot to learn but from what i seen a nice hard KICK to the SHINS [not hard to do] would stop almost ANY BODY so in my UNprofessional opinion the SHIN KICK [is that a WC/MA word?] is a realy good 1st impression for an attacker
what do you more experienced people think
ps
they taught me to connect with the feet 1st especialy in the
WT LATSAU program
that's my 2 cents
PEACEnRESPECT
mike

[Patrick Gordon]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My sifu teaches to avoid a fight any way you can, if you end up fighting you have already lost because you are not playing your own game.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So why aren't you teaching the same?

For one, I cannot teach the same as my sifu. Two, I try to carry on the principles he passes onto me as best as I can. Thirdly, how would you know what I teach my students? Have you been to any of my classes, have we met? Patrick.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If my opponent is giving me a problem and we seperate, you can be **** sure my hands will be in Jong Sau position...and I won't enter with a kick, ha!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you separate, that is your way out.

Perhaps, perhaps not. A wing chun fighter is not like a pitbull. You close when you need to, you seperate when you need to, you walk away when you need to.
Patrick.

Why wouldn't you take it?

Take what, a beating? I hope this not what you are saying. Only a fool would brag about being able to "take it". Patrick.

Because your ego would come into play... wouldn't it? That is not a Wing Chun fighter.

My ego would come into play because I could not take it? I am a little confused but it sounds like you are as well. I won't bring up my ego because I have no idea what you are talking about. Speaking of egos, it sounds like yours is quite inflated. patrick.

If you respond with more of your theory, I am afraid I will not be able to follow up. I am on my way to visit my sifu for a couple of weeks. Good luck, sincerely,

Patrick Gordon.

[OdderMensch]

but i'm tired.


Sui -

:rolleyes:

[jonp]

tron

ive been doin WT for bout 10 months now an ive been taught only to kick when you have contact/control.

my teacher did say that maybe - if somebody was chargin at you and you had a pint in your hand (and didnt want to spill/smash it in his face :eek: ) you could front kick him but not recommended.

i guess if you were entering and there was the opportunity you could convert your step (aimed at controlling your opponents leg at least) to a kick. but generally youd advance your man sao and be in contact by this point anyway.

i wouldnt ever really specifically enter with a kick id just go in, see what happened - bit dangerous gamblin on it IMHO

peace

jon

[Matrix]

Originally posted by fa_jing
One of the things I don't understand is when to use a side kick as opposed to a front kick. You use a side kick when you cannot use a front kick.
Matrix

[yuanfen]

a "wing chun fighter"[from my end]has to be reved up before he protects himself ...
but i know this of w/c fighters so thats how i know they're are to bow out of respect to me.
------------------------------------------------------------
What in the world are you jabbering about, sui?,<g>
1. wing chun fighters are not made with a cookie cutter.
2. bow? Sic? sic transit sui mundi.?

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by Matrix
You use a side kick when you cannot use a front kick.
Matrix

Such as when?

OK, I know that when you do a low stop kick, it is often beneficial to turn the foot in or out in order to present a greater contact surface to help your chances of catching his leg. Also, the side kick can be used to hit the knee at a particular angle. So let's confine the discussion to kicks aimed at the midsection (hip to chest)



1. Is it a matter of pointing your foot in a particular direction to avoid his defense? I know that for instance, if your trying to front kick his mid-section below his elbow that you sometimes turn your foot out, to avoid the toes running into the elbow. Is there another defensive hand position that your opponent may assume that calls for a side kick?

2. Or, is it more a question of the relative postion of the opponent?

3. Or, is it a natural outgrowth of an upper body movement like the bon sao, where it feels natural to turn your kicking hip over?

4. Or is it for when your rear foot is pointing too far away from the target to do a front kick.

[EnterTheWhip]

I'm far from confused, and you seem to have drowned in the details.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by fa_jing
1. Is it a matter of pointing your foot in a particular direction to avoid his defense?
No, there is no need to try to avoid anything.


2. Or, is it more a question of the relative postion of the opponent? Yes, much more. I'm sure that you can think of a situation where this would be the case.


3. Or, is it a natural outgrowth of an upper body movement like the bon sao, where it feels natural to turn your kicking hip over? No, not at all. If you are in position to use Bong Sau, then a front kick is best.


4. Or is it for when your rear foot is pointing too far away from the target to do a front kick. You should never be in this position, and if you were I don't see how a side kick would make the situation any better.

Fa_jing, please discuss this with your sifu or an older brother or sister. Your school may have a different philosophy from mine. Besides, why take advice from a faceless entity on the internet?
Remember, be a student, not a follower. In other words, study and critically assess what you are doing and do not just follow what others tell you. Eat the chicken and spit out the bones.

Cheers,
Matrix

[fa_jing]

Thanks for your opinions anyway. I'll discuss it further with my sifu then. Really I have already, he has said that the chinese kick from all angles.
Also, he said that leaning over and to the side for an "off-body side kick," takes your upper body out of range of an attack. I just have to learn to make things work for me.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by fa_jing
Also, he said that leaning over and to the side for an "off-body side kick," takes your upper body out of range of an attack. I just have to learn to make things work for me. When you say that your upper body is "out of range of an attack" do you mean out of range FROM attack or out of range for you to use in an attack? Think about it.
Besides, why do I need to attack your upper body when I can just take your legs out from under you??

Matrix

[Patrick Gordon]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
I'm far from confused, and you seem to have drowned in the details.

I drowned a couple of posts back. i can't keep up with your wisdom.

Off to New Mexico!


Patrick Gordon.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by Matrix
When you say that your upper body is "out of range of an attack" do you mean out of range FROM attack or out of range for you to use in an attack? Think about it.
Besides, why do I need to attack your upper body when I can just take your legs out from under you??

Matrix

I mean an attack is coming and you lean to avoid it, while kicking. So the opponent already had intent to attack your upper body. Kicks are best when they are unexpected, although I still think they are pretty effective even if they are expected. Heck, punches are best when they are unexpected, that's something I was alluding to earlier.

[Matrix]

fa_jing,

I knew what you meant, but I was asking you to think about the other consequences of doing this.

When you are standing sideways on one leg, with your torso leaning back to counterbalance for the leg extension there are consequences to doing this. Someone is going to come inside and knock that post out from under you, or maybe they'll do it from the outside. The results are similar.

In any case, you should do what you feel comfortable doing.

Matrix

[yuanfen]

sui- I suggest that you continue to make a fool of yourself on the southern forum. Except for your compulsive trolling,you have yet to show much of substance here.You show no real curiosity about wing chun. Your bak mei posing really belongs in the southern forum. Juvenile jibes are not very interesting. Why not try to be more constructive?