Gung Gee fook Fu Kuen

[Cincinnatus]

Hi, this is a question to all the different Hung Ga practitioners out there. Do all the various different brnaches and lineages (Canton, Village, etc) all use Gung Gee Fook Fu as the principle beginners form? Are do some use it as a more advanced form (which it really looks like to me...) or not use it at all? Thanks.

What we do in life, echoes in eternity
--Maximus Decimus Meridius, General of the Army of the North, Commander of the Felix Legions

[tomcat]

Hi, Hung Hei Goon Learned the Shaolin Tiger System FRom Gee Sim See. After ariving in Canton he realized with the narrow and crowded alleys and markets he would need more short infighting techniqes so he adjusted and added to what he had spent a lifetime learning. Anyway to get to your question,It was the first Hung-Gar form created.While some schools do teach it first ,many start out with Lau Gar fist,and Wing Lam Has a form calld arrow hand. In my school it is taught as an intermediate form because of its length and tremendous depth.

tomcat

[humblefist]

I've seen some schools use this as a beginning form. I would say it's an intermediate form, for a simpler form in the hung gar training, I've seen the Lau ga kuen used. But the gung gee fook fu kuen is a very good one for basics.

[Lilian Wong]

Many Hong Kong schools start with Fu Hok. Secondly Lau Ga and thirdly Gung Gee, seeing last form as an intermediate form (with more different technique skills as Fu Hok).

[Shaolin Master]

Hehe....we start with Dan Gung then Fu Hok then Seung Gung.

[irontiger]

hey
many schools of hung ga teach lau ga kuen as a
intro set to get the basic stance work and hand
cordination,to prepare one for gung ji fuk fu
however this does not hold true for all schools of hung ga,especially village hung kuen which teachs the animal patterns separetly!!!!!!!! :cool: martialmoves@hotmail.com

[denali]

Lau Gar Kuen is not technically Hung Gar..but it is taught in some lineages as a beginner set. Some teach Mui Fa Kuen as a beginner Hung Gar set, and teach the Lau Gar set later..I'm sure it all depends on the teacher and the student though I'm sure, so it's probably not the same for everyone even within the same lineages.

hope this helps a bit..

[WongFeHung]

We teach two basic coordination sets before teaching Moi-Fa, Lau-Ga, and finally gung Gi Fook-Fu Kuen. I learned Gung Ji first, but for the average beginner student, who has no idea whatsoever what he's getting himself into, there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Face it, if you were abeginner, you would think this form gooes on forever. Now, that being said, If I was teaching only a select few disciples, I would start them off with Tiet Sien Kuen and sam-sing, reaction drills, and conditioning for three years, then Gung-Ji, then Ng Ying Kuen, and Fu-Hok last.

[illusionfist]

Tentigers- I would love to hear the "method behind the madness" for that particular private regimen you outlined.

Its always been my impression that Hung Gar has a step program approach. To me, teaching Tit Sin Kuen first would be more overwhelming than Gung Gee. Then again i'm an idiot ;)

Peace :D

[WongFeHung]

the method to the madness is copped from old school Goju Ryu. Miyagi had his students do nothing but Sanchin Kata, makiwara and conditioning for the first three years. Can you imagine the foundation,structure, the strength, power, intensity that kind of regimine would produce? After that, you can teach them anything.So why not with Hung Kuen? Of course this would probably require a temple setting. Imagine training the first three years nothing but Tiet Sien Kuen, Yit Gung Ging,and conditioning.

[Fu-Pow]

I heard that you can bleed internally if you do Iron Wire with out previous step wise training? Is this untrue?

Fu-Pow

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"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[South Paw]

TenTigers

An interesting point of view.
If you have a class with dedicated students it's sure worth trying.

South Paw

[tomcat]

I must say when I first read your post I thought it madness also,however upon further reflection I think maybe for students with prior martial arts or students with a year or so of training,conditioning,breathing etc.could get great benefit from such training.I think I may incorporate it into the time we do stances in class.Although I will start out with a section and build up to the whole set . My Sifu told me also that internal damage could be caused if not perfomed correctly or if the student was not ready so I would want to observe my students and make sure they were well conditioned before just having them jump in feet first. good post though you defenatly got me thinking.

tomcat

[Shaolin Master]

In most Fujian styles we spend heaps of time (an eternity in fact) training in San Zhan (3 Battles forms) which in a way is similar to Tit Sin though there are some additional features in Tit Sin that provide a certain uniqueness and depth to it. But it seems a very viable idea.

I mean we usually teach as we are taught with a few innovations in methods but rarely with such overwhelming changes/redirection but that is good development if done properly one would guess.

Though the development would take longer than if practiced later as it should be gradual or it may have counter productive effects [Not just health ones but even martial ones altering structure at the wrong time].

Thus, in fujian martial arts though sanzhan is commenced very early its depth progresses (as does its training) as one continues in the rest and in the end its importance becomes oh so understood.

Regards
Shi Chan Long

[WongFeHung]

okay, two things: first, I said that is what I WOULD do IF I were teaching a select few out of my garage or in a temple. Of course, I don't teach that way (dang), we do it step by step.
The iron wire thread set MUST be taught slowly, one section, or really a half a section to get the student's body accostomed to the stress placed upon the internal organs. I have heard some stories, and I personally have sustained what felt like my entire right side of my stomach/diaphragm was severely bruised for about 6 weeks. One note, that since we practice sam chien kuen, it's easier to teach tiet sien kuen in less time, due to some of the similarities.

[Paul Skrypichayko]

Shaolin Master, sounds like you practice the same hung gar as people in Malaysia. Where does your hung gar come from?

Tentigers, you practice sam chin as well? My master also taught this to my sihing and I before we learned Sup Ying Kuen.

All the time spent on tit sin kuen would give a lot of benefit, but if a student was training for martial arts, they should focus on martial aspects first. If a new student was training solely for health, they should practice tit sin kuen or other qigong.

[Shaolin Master]

It is actually from singapore.

I have an acquaintance/student who learned some Malaysian Hung gar and his version differs in some respects to mine.
Though there could be different types in Malaysia itself, who knows.

Regards

[Tao]

Cincinnatus wrote:
Hi, this is a question to all the different Hung Ga practitioners out there. Do all
the various different branches and lineages (Canton, Village, etc) use Gung
Gee Fook Fu as the principle beginners form? Or do some use it as a more
advanced form (which it really looks like to me...) or not use it at all? Thanks.


Niko wrote:
No, not all schools, branches and styles of Hung Ga teach Gung Gee Fook Fu as a
Beginner's form. Each school or branch teaches differently depending upon their tradition,
background, and ideas behind the system.

There are many styles of Hung Ga such as: Siu Lam Temple Hung Ga, Hung Men Hung Ga, Village style Hung Ga, Wong Fei Hung or Modern Hung Ga, etc. All find their roots back to the Venerable Abbot Gee Sin Sim Si of Southern Siu Lam Temple. However, depending on the style or branch of Hung Ga you were taught, training, skills, techniques, specific order of forms, etc. sometimes differ from one style to another.

For example, some schools teach Gung Gee Fook Fu as a beginning form, some teach Fu Hok as the beginning form, and some teach Iron Wire as the beginning form, etc. In contrast to "new school" Hung Ga, some "old school" Hung Kuen practitioners never went beyond one set. This was not due to a slow aptitude or poor learning ability. It's just that the Hung Kuen state of mind was different back then. The main purpose of Hung Kuen back then was not to learn all the forms, but to master at least one! Some HK practitioners never went beyond Gung Gee Fook Fu, and some never went beyond Fu Hok, etc. Some HK practitioners were only taught Gung Gee Fook Fu, and some were only taught Iron Wire, etc. But some of these guys were more advanced than some Sifu's and practitioners today! The reason why is because Hung Kuen was taught differently back then, and only a few schools still live by this "old school" approach today. One old school concept was this: That every form in Hung Ga Kuen IS A SYSTEM ON ITS OWN! In other words, every HK form is like a well balanced meal that contains all the seeds and ingredients of the other forms. Such as: stances, bridges, Qi connection, hard and soft power, various Geng, 5 element theory, 5 sound theory, 5 element fists/techniques, 5 animal shapes/techniques, ten killing hands, etc.

For example, in the beginning of Gung Gi Fook Fu there are elements of Tit Kiu Sam's bridges from the Iron Wire form. If you look even more closely, there are also ingredients from the Tiger and Crane movements of Hung Hei Goon. Also, elements from Five Animal, Five elements, etc. as well. Every form in Hung Ga Kuen is truly A SYSTEM ON ITS OWN!

In order for one to comprehend this concept, one must fully understand what the word "system" truly means. According to the Webster and Oxford dictionary: a system is a group of things or parts working together as a whole. Such as: the nervous system, digestion system, etc. So just as the human body is a system and has other systems in it, Hung Ga Kuen is also a system and each form is a system and a group of techniques working together as a whole. The progenitor's of HK knew what they were doing! Back in the days, each student was taught one specific system in HK. If the student truly mastered the system, he was then allowed to open a school and teach. If a student wanted to advance further, the Sifu would then send the qualified student with a letter of introduction to his Sifu, Sihing, or Sidai to continue his studies. However, mastering a form is another story.

Regardless of the specific order one is taught, or whether or not one learned all the forms in Hung Kuen. One thing is certain, if the basics aren't mastered first, their will be no external or internal power behind the form. All practice will be in vain. A good instructor primarily teaches his student the basics. Thus giving him a proper mental and physical foundation that will enable him to unlock the power and techniques in the form. However, this takes time to develop. A form is like a recipe you are learning to cook. First you need the ingredients (basics, Qi Gong, breathing, stances, bridge work, drills, etc.). Then you need the right mixture (body alignment, Qi connection, technique, application, sparring, etc.). Then the recipe needs the proper amount of heat and time to cook (patience, diligence, guidance, practice, practice, and more practice!). Without this your recipe or Hung Kuen will be nothing!

Nowadays, practitioners learn as many forms as they can and are masters of none. They put quantity before quality. Some even open up their own schools. This is why there are so many students mislead out there. It's like the blind leading the blind. This is why sometimes you hear a story of a Hung Kuen practitioner getting severely beaten by a regular guy on the street. This would never occur if they mastered the basics, and truly mastered at least one form. Instead, nowadays HK practitioners collect forms like dusty trophies that mean nothing. Without the basics there is no foundation. Without a good foundation and the proper guidance from an advanced instructor, even if you practiced for a hundred years your Gong Fu would amount to nothing. Nothing will be achieved unless the basics are first mastered. This is why the old school Sifu's taught and continue to teach each student based on their unique body build, personality, state of health, strengths, weaknesses, etc.

Let's take the Siu Lam era for example. Before Hung Hei Goon created the Fu Hok set, and before Tit Kiu Sam created Tit Sin Kuen. In the beginning, Abbot Gee Sin taught Hung Hei Goon Siu Lam Fook Fu (now known as Gung Gee Fook Fu). With this knowledge alone Hung Hei Goon became an expert. Only after Hung mastered the Gung Gee system, was he able to create the Fu Hok system by combining the crane techniques he learned from his wife (Fong Wing Chun) and the Tiger techniques he learned from Gung Gee Fook Fu. Gung Gee Fook Fu is A SYSTEM ON ITS OWN! Let's take Tit Kiu Sam for instance, it was a monk called Kwok Yan who taught him Rock Body Boxing and 12 Kiu Sau techniques. It was through this system and these 12 techniques that Tit Kiu Sam became an expert in Southern Siu Lam Boxing. With this knowledge, Tit Kiu Sam was able to creat the Tit Sin Kuen system. Tit Sin Kuen is also A SYSTEM ON ITS OWN!

A famous Chinese source wrote that once a friend of Tit Kiu Sam was very ill. Although TKS's friend never practiced the martial arts, he taught his friend the techniques of Iron Wire Boxing. In a short time his friend was completely healed, and grew tremendously strong from this training.
After a year, his friend became very advanced in the martial arts. All from one system alone. Tit Sin Kuen is A SYSTEM ON ITS OWN. So you see, quality is superior and supercedes quantity.
Also, each form in the Hung Kuen system is A SYSTEM ON ITS OWN. They are all based on internal and external energies that energize our blood with Qi and oxygen. Our blood then circulates throughout our body feeding our bones, marrow, brain, tendons, muscles, sinews, etc. In time our body changes and becomes powerfully strong and healthy. We are then able to sink our Qi to our Dan Tien, and with various sounds nourish our organs and generate different Geng. Eventually, our Yi gets stronger and our Shen clearer and we obtain great martial power and strength. However, without the knowledge, wisdom and experience of a qualified teacher, you
can damage your body beyond repair in the form of hernias, pulled tendons, nerve damage, muscle damage, hemmoraging, Qi blockage, making the body too Yang or Yin, etc.

It will take a lifetime to grab the essence in one system like Tit Sin Kuen. The reason is because, there are thousands of details to learn and master like: sounds, feelings, expressions, etc. I know Sifu's as well as Goju Sensei who studied TSK and Sanchin who can confirm the same.

Lastly, I will leave you all with this story to ponder and reflect. Once there was a Hung Kuen practitioner in Guangdong who learned Village Style Hung Ga, but only knew one form - Gung Gee Fook Fu. However, no one could beat him. One day some one he just defeated in a fight asked him how could he be so advanced if he only knew one form?, and what what was his secret? The Village stylist plainly told him that his Sifu taught him that this:
That even if he practiced Gung Gee 1000 times he would be nothing. However, if he practied Gung Gee 1000 times correctly he would be a beginner, but if he practiced his form 10,000 times correctly, he would still be a beginner but the average fighter would never beat him. The defeated man asked him how many times did he practice so far. The Village stylist
told him, after 100,000 times of doing Gung Gi correctly, he lost count.

Each form in Siu Lam Hung Ga Kuen is A SYSTEM ON ITS OWN! Whose main purpose is not only for defense, but more essentially to prevent illness, thereby creating health, and promoting longevity.
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